| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andres64" |
| Date: |
31 Aug 2007 06:50:02 AM |
| Object: |
Would you... |
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 07:43:52 AM |
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"Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
People can't choose what they believe. Something either makes
sense or it doesn't. There is either evidence or there isn't. Don't
you think that many adherents to religions are really pretending?
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| User: "bramble" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 04:00:54 PM |
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On 31 ago, 13:43, "Witziges R=E4tsel" <z...@roer.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andres...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...> choose to b=
elieve in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
People can't choose what they believe. Something either makes
sense or it doesn't. There is either evidence or there isn't. Don't
you think that many adherents to religions are really pretending?
to believe is the result of an operant conditioning. It has nothing
to do with our anbility to reason. In fact, to believe is to isolate
reason in a vacuum.
Bramble
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 10:32:36 AM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 12:43:52 GMT, "Witziges Rätsel" <zer@roer.com>
wrote:
People can't choose what they believe. Something either makes
sense or it doesn't. There is either evidence or there isn't. Don't
you think that many adherents to religions are really pretending?
Those who only claim to be religious, but aren't, are pretending.
There are many who actually believe the nonsense.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 09:35:17 AM |
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Witziges Rätsel <zer@roer.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Andres64 <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
People can't choose what they believe. Something either makes
sense or it doesn't. There is either evidence or there isn't. Don't
you think that many adherents to religions are really pretending?
I think many do pretend and just go through the motions in order
to make other people happy or to not cause trouble or be looked
down on by society or their families.
Others, though, truly seem to get some kind of actual happiness or
good feelings from believing in the fantasy of their god or religion,
and based on those feelings, it makes them think their god or religion
is actually true, even though it's just as false as all the gods and
religions they reject as being ridiculous.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 11:25:46 AM |
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"Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
Assuming I can arbitrarily choose to believe in things in the first place,
and observing that I have no god beliefs, obviously I wouldn't choose to
believe in any gods even if I could, or else I'd already believe in them.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above).
Not if it's the creature that is described as drowning the whole world in a
fit of pique. If the god of the bible were shown to be congruent with
reality, the only reasonable response would be to figure out a way to
destroy it.
I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
Remaining a child for my whole life is not attractive.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
Excellent choice, M'sieur! :-)
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 06:57:37 AM |
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"Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 07:42:18 AM |
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On Aug 31, 7:57 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andres...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
I had a similar breif love affair with Voudoun(which is really a lot
more internally consistent than Christianity, mainly because of a lack
of orthodoxy)....but...no matter how well arranged and spiced it
is...a dish of lies remains a dish of lies.
Hatter
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| User: "de_menezes" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 02:16:30 PM |
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"Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188564138.433998.38410@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 7:57 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andres...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
I had a similar breif love affair with Voudoun(which is really a lot
more internally consistent than Christianity, mainly because of a lack
of orthodoxy)....but...no matter how well arranged and spiced it
is...a dish of lies remains a dish of lies.
Well, you just changed the dish, Hatter, and yet still again you're
eating up all the lies you can.
Funny how things turn out, ey Hatter?
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 08:37:30 PM |
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"de_menses" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in news:fb9q7k$q4k$1@aioe.org:
W<SPIT in your eye>
Shaddap.
--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939
No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices.
--Edward R. Murrow
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| User: "de_menezes" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 11:59:30 AM |
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"Doc Smartass" <gekido@astroskivviesboymail.com> wrote in message news:Xns999DD1DB9F797askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...
"de_menses" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in news:fb9q7k$q4k$1@aioe.org:
W<SPIT in your eye>
Shaddap.
Ooooooh, Doc is ***** again by someone who is not afraid to
tell the truth about atheists.
Oooooh, Doc, don't cry. You deserved it. You and your atheist
friends.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 01:52:29 PM |
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"de_menezes" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in news:fbc7sk$5n8$4@aioe.org:
"Doc Smartass" <gekido@astroskivviesboymail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns999DD1DB9F797askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...
"de_menses" <de_menezes@gmail.com> wrote in
news:fb9q7k$q4k$1@aioe.org:
W<SPIT in your eye>
Shaddap.
O<SPIT>
Quiet.
--
Doc Smartass, BAAWA Knight of Heckling
aa # 1939
No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices.
--Edward R. Murrow
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 06:16:13 PM |
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In article <fb9q7k$q4k$1@aioe.org>, says...
"Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188564138.433998.38410@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 7:57 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andres...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
I had a similar breif love affair with Voudoun(which is really a lot
more internally consistent than Christianity, mainly because of a lack
of orthodoxy)....but...no matter how well arranged and spiced it
is...a dish of lies remains a dish of lies.
Well, you just changed the dish, Hatter, and yet still again you're
eating up all the lies you can.
Funny how things turn out, ey Hatter?
Hey, Aunt Flo! Spouting loon comments in alt.atheism too, huh?
BDK
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| User: "de_menezes" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 11:58:40 AM |
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"BDK" <BDK@magicsteel.com> wrote in message news:MPG.21426b49798db30a98b7c2@news.buckeye-express.com...
In article <fb9q7k$q4k$1@aioe.org>, says...
"Hatter" <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1188564138.433998.38410@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 7:57 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andres...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
I had a similar breif love affair with Voudoun(which is really a lot
more internally consistent than Christianity, mainly because of a lack
of orthodoxy)....but...no matter how well arranged and spiced it
is...a dish of lies remains a dish of lies.
Well, you just changed the dish, Hatter, and yet still again you're
eating up all the lies you can.
Funny how things turn out, ey Hatter?
Hey, Aunt Flo! Spouting loon comments in alt.atheism too, huh?
No, BDK. But it seems that you came here too in order to label me
as something I am not. It seems to me that you're tired of getting your
lying ***** kicked at alt.conspiracy, so you came here to get some more.
Welcome.
I'd be more than happy to bitchslap you here too, BDK.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 05:40:51 PM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:57:37 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
Actually, there are some British Trads that are inherently atheistic
(in the upper degrees); the God/desses are recognized as symbolic,
rather than having an independent existence as literal beings.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 05:43:20 PM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:40:51 -0400, raven1
<quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 07:57:37 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1188561002.812021.240920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
choose to believe in God if you could?
No can do. Gave it a shot when I got into Wicca about ten or so years ago
(The god and goddess thing made a lot more sense to me than the almighty
constantly PO'd sky sky daddy of christianity). As much as I tried to
believe it, the bottom line is that it's a bunch of ***** and wishful
thinking like any other religion. Doesn't mean I didn't have a blast
pretending though ;)
Actually, there are some British Trads that are inherently atheistic
(in the upper degrees); the God/desses are recognized as symbolic,
rather than having an independent existence as literal beings.
Not just British. Remember Natalie? She was an American Wiccan who was
like that.
These people are borderline cases. By some definitions theist, by
others atheist. Which makes whatever label they prefer.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 06:59:57 AM |
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Andres64 wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
Depends on the god I guess.
The god of the Abrahamic religions, no stinking way
Aphrodite, well, only when the priestess wears a see-thru nightie.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
Everyone has to grow up at one point or another. Fantasy's are for
children and they are fun. But there comes that time in every persons
life, where the fantasy stops and living in reality starts. Some of us
are lucky, they were never indoctrinated into the fantasy of religion.
For the rest of us, leaving that fantasy behind, can be painful.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
Good choice. Reality is exciting enough for one life time. Besides,
immortality is highly overrated. After you've done it all, seen it all,
learned it all, what's left for you to do?
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.secularity.com/ktayloraz
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 11:05:34 PM |
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Last time that great scribe Andres64 <andresc64@excite.com> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
There is a certain attraction with delusions but the particular delusion
seems imagination challenged. I would want more than 1 god. I would want
hundreds or thousands. The particular fantasy is not to my taste. I
guess my personality is not suited to orthodoxy and hegemony. I would
want something a bit messier and diverse. And then that would only work
if I was ignorant of my own ignorance.
--
Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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| User: "bramble" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 04:20:00 PM |
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On 31 ago, 12:50, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
we choose among options, when we are forced to do it. Most times this
choose is not the result of a rational process. We make a choose when
we do not know well of the variables involved in a case. But when we
are very well informed, we do not choose, we simple act for a profit.
If there is not profit involved we are not going to act.
In the case of action, it could be a preacher who invents a new
religion, or most of those who make living from religion.
They act with knowledge that they need the money from people. And
it is irrelevant what sort of god, or religion he is preaching.
You can see several examples of this.
So, why one is going to choose the believe in a god? Only in the case
we are forced to fake it, to save our life, or our means of living.
Many people is living among false believers. But as they are playing
very well their fake believes, you can not show your cards facing up
on the table. So you have to behave as if you were just another
bloody believer.
So all this is nothing but a play in falsehood. Only the people of
lower classes that have been thouroghly brainwashed are real
believers.
Bramble
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 07:47:27 AM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:20:00 -0700, bramble
<leopoldo.perdomo@gmail.com> wrote:
So all this is nothing but a play in falsehood. Only the people of
lower classes that have been thouroghly brainwashed are real
believers.
They have the most to gain. It was observed some while ago by
Nietzsche that christianity was a slave's religion, proclaiming a
virtue in putting up with whatever ***** this world has to offer in
hopes of winning the great lottery of the next world (which reward, be
it noted, costs the slave owner nothing). Meanwhile, keep those
pennies rolling into the collection plate, the better to feel sorry
for the rich man's camel-like chances of winning that lottery while
you build up great credit by becoming even more poor than you were
when you walked in.
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 04:05:46 PM |
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On Aug 31, 12:50 pm, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
If there were a god to believe in I would believe in a god, as there
isn't a god to believe in, I don't believe in a god.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 11:10:42 AM |
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On Aug 31, 4:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you?
Not really. I like being an independent, self-reliant adult.
Besides, if there was a super-being watching out for me, controlling
things (even if was trying to work things out in my best interests),
it would reduce me to the status of a puppet.
OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
You can say that again.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
That, I think, is what all the regulars on this newsgroup feel, pretty
much.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 11:14:16 PM |
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Last time that great scribe skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
if there was a super-being watching
The omnipresent voyeur. Does this mean that believers are
exhibitionists?
--
Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
08 Sep 2007 03:45:20 PM |
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On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:44:16 +0930, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
Last time that great scribe skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
if there was a super-being watching
The omnipresent voyeur. Does this mean that believers are
exhibitionists?
By design.....
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 01:54:42 AM |
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On Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:44:16 +0930, Meteorite Debris
<epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote:
Last time that great scribe skyeyes <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> chipped away
at his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
if there was a super-being watching
The omnipresent voyeur. Does this mean that believers are
exhibitionists?
No.
Just delusional and scared.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 05:43:39 PM |
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On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. On one hand, it would be nice to
believe that there is a God watching over us, that loves us and has a
plan for us (I'm reminded of a line from one of my favorite movies of
all times - Dogma, in which Bethany says something to the effect of
"I'd give anything to feel that way again." (referring to the belief
as noted above). I mean, wouldn't it be nice to believe that there is
a parent always watching over you and protecting you? OTOH, I hate
the idea of ignorance, self-delusion, powerlessness/dependence and
fear that religion brings.
I guess, in the end, I'd still choose the reality of this world over
the fantasy of religion.
Sure it is comforting Andres64 to believe many of the things religion
promotes with heaven and God the father and the like.
But as an agnostic freethinker I must side with what can be proved and
not wishful thinking.
All is not lost though.
Religion offer many tools of peace for all to grab onto if their
guiding light is truth and peace.
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide
spectrum of believers and non believers.
One atheist said he ran his life by the golden rule.
Another person piped up that the golden rule came from the bible,
which made the atheist wince.
The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not
like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible.
When it came up that the concept of golden rule might be from an
earlier source than the bible, the atheist was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides?
Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible
he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he
was upset. How can the same material be used to build a palace by one
man, yet only build a hovel for another?
By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying it to live a
life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice and problems
and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man.
Despite these imperfections, each religion also has many
"perfection's" within it as well.
We can still be open to peace generating tools from any of the
religions and spiritual traditions that are available to us if we are
serious about being at peace.
This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly
quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Here
are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other
than that of the religion of humanity.
In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and apply it to
your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof. I
had to chuckle one time when an atheists argued that the golden rule
is not perfect, so he said he does not follow it. When I questioned
him about what he does follow as well as the state of perfection that
applied to his life, all he could do was reply with ad hominem
attacks.
If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we
will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything
outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us. The nature
of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look towards
direction and forget perfection.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this
point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we
need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our
spiritual practice and our life.
Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is
a most useful tool to live a life at peace by. And when we combine it
with other tools such as universality, natural law, contrast the
greater good with the greater right, etc the synergistic effect is
close to perfection as humans can get with this subject. But it takes
some thinking and one will not see it without an open mind.
Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. But
many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever
we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction
of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others
peace.
As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions
without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts
irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most
grateful wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept, I
leave it alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others
down. Do we like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down."
Whether this is a true story or not I do not know. But we can all
benefit from uplifting rather than destroying.
I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts.
The critiques offer much in the line of 'no goods' but they seldom do
they offer any substantive tools to finding peace.
Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right enough' to be
able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I waited for
perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations.
The atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket
dismissal of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect.
He could offer no substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was
succumb to personal attacks on me.
We can examine our writing to see what useful tools for finding peace
we offer to others it also says a lot about our own practice of
generating inner peace.
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace.
also see:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 04:12:10 PM |
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On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I think "if you could" is the phrase that I can't quite wrap my head
around. I can't unlearn something I've learned. Once something is
discovered, it's not often forgotten. I'm one of those that thinks
once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 07:23:49 PM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:12:10 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I think "if you could" is the phrase that I can't quite wrap my head
around. I can't unlearn something I've learned. Once something is
discovered, it's not often forgotten. I'm one of those that thinks
once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back.
So, you believe in Genies, then?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 08:05:53 PM |
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On Aug 31, 8:23 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:12:10 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I think "if you could" is the phrase that I can't quite wrap my head
around. I can't unlearn something I've learned. Once something is
discovered, it's not often forgotten. I'm one of those that thinks
once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back.
So, you believe in Genies, then?
The djinn was too thin so I threw him in the bin. Now I have sequoias
growing out of my welcome mat.
/fundie voice
PROOVE I DONT!!
\fundie voice
-PF, <g>
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
31 Aug 2007 10:30:27 PM |
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:05:53 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 8:23 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:12:10 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I think "if you could" is the phrase that I can't quite wrap my head
around. I can't unlearn something I've learned. Once something is
discovered, it's not often forgotten. I'm one of those that thinks
once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back.
So, you believe in Genies, then?
The djinn was too thin so I threw him in the bin. Now I have sequoias
growing out of my welcome mat.
/fundie voice
PROOVE I DONT!!
\fundie voice
Too easy, oh jeannie with the dark brown hare.
It is not in the Bahagavita, so it could NOT be true or real.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Would you... |
01 Sep 2007 02:20:28 PM |
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On Aug 31, 11:30 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:05:53 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 8:23 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 14:12:10 -0700, wrote:
On Aug 31, 7:50 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
choose to believe in God if you could?
I think "if you could" is the phrase that I can't quite wrap my head
around. I can't unlearn something I've learned. Once something is
discovered, it's not often forgotten. I'm one of those that thinks
once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back.
So, you believe in Genies, then?
The djinn was too thin so I threw him in the bin. Now I have sequoias
growing out of my welcome mat.
/fundie voice
PROOVE I DONT!!
\fundie voice
Too easy, oh jeannie with the dark brown hare.
It is not in the Bahagavita, so it could NOT be true or real.
But if it looks like Barbara, I'll search for it with zeal.
http://graysmatter.codivation.com/content/binary/BarbaraEden.JPG
-PF, etc.
another damn dirty ol' man.
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