| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MissSouth" |
| Date: |
09 Jun 2006 07:10:27 PM |
| Object: |
YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
=====
"A Grisly but Essential Issue"
"Pandemic Plan Skims Over How to Deal With Many Corpses"
By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 9, 2006; A09
They brought in steam shovels to dig graves. Caskets were rented --
just long enough to hold a brief memorial service -- then passed on to
the next grieving family. The death toll of the 1918 flu pandemic was
so overwhelming that the military commandeered entire trains to
transport dead soldiers; priests patrolled the streets of Philadelphia
in horse-drawn carriages, collecting bodies from doorsteps.
"One of the most demoralizing things was the inability to move bodies
out of the home," said John M. Barry, author of "The Great Influenza,"
the definitive work on the 1918 pandemic. "They just literally stacked
up, sometimes for three, four or five days."
Now, with medical experts and government leaders racing to prepare for
a potential pandemic, a cadre of mortuary specialists has begun quietly
grappling with the grisly but essential question of what to do with the
dead if it happens again.
Opinion is varied on when and how virulent the next global flu outbreak
would be, but even a modest epidemic -- similar to the pandemic that
hit in 1968 -- could kill between 89,000 and 207,000 Americans. If the
next virus mimics the far more potent 1918 strain, the U.S. death toll
could reach 1.9 million.
"It's almost too big to wrap your arms around," said John Nesler, a
specialist in mass fatalities advising the military. If the worst were
to occur, Nesler predicted the impact would be akin to "20 nuclear
detonations" simultaneously knocking out multiple cities and towns.
In either case, experts foresee an 18-month period of funeral homes
being short-staffed, crematories operating round-the-clock, dwindling
supplies of caskets and restrictions on group gatherings such as
memorial services. Morgues and hospitals would quickly reach capacity.
And most of the federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Teams
(DMORT) would be too busy in their own communities to deploy elsewhere.
"I can't see myself packing my bags to go to another state to help
out," said Joyce deJong, a Michigan medical examiner who worked on
DMORT teams after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and Hurricane Katrina.
"I'll be here dealing with an increase in the number of bodies."
Some fear that the Bush administration, in all its detailed planning
for pandemic flu, has paid scant attention to fatalities.
"It's the one thing nobody wants to address, because it's ugly. People
don't want to think that anyone will die," said John Fitch, senior vice
president for advocacy at the National Funeral Directors Association.
"We can't put our head in the sand and say response stops at prevention
and treatment."
In the 227-page response plan recently released by the White House, the
term "medical examiner" appears just once -- and "autopsy" not at all.
A single paragraph on page 112 recommends that hospitals, medical
examiners and government officials "assess current capacity for
refrigeration of deceased persons, discuss mass fatality plans and
identify temporary morgue sites" to handle surges.
Officials say much more is happening behind the scenes. In March, the
administration helped organize a two-day conference at Fort Monroe in
Virginia with medical examiners, funeral directors, public health
experts and casket makers. Among the more innovative, albeit jarring,
ideas being considered are backyard burials, virtual funerals and
storing bodies at ice hockey rinks.
Seattle's King County came up with the ice rink idea when officials
realized their mass fatality plan would accommodate no more than 50
deaths, perhaps in a plane crash, said interim health director Dorothy
Teeter.
"This is so much bigger," she said. "We project 11,000 potential deaths
in six to eight weeks."
Several participants said they will have to consider temporary mass
graves because they will not have the staff to keep up, especially if
some of their workers or family members contract the flu.
"They would bury the person with all the identification material and
carefully keep track of that information," said Ann Norwood, a senior
analyst at the Office of Public Health Emergency Preparedness at the
Department of Health and Human Services. "After things calm down, we
can locate the family, exhume the casket and put it wherever the family
ultimately would like the body to rest."
"Virtual funerals" broadcast over closed-circuit television or the
Internet would be advised, said Nesler, who ran the Fort Monroe
conference. "The very worst thing you can do during an epidemic is have
large gatherings of people" such as memorial services, he said. Some
families may bury relatives on their own property, said deJong, who is
also chairwoman of the mass fatality management committee of the
National Association of Medical Examiners.
In a pandemic, one problem would likely trigger several more, Norwood
said. Fuel shortages, for instance, would mean added complications
transporting bodies and keeping refrigerated trucks cool.
If funeral directors and other mortuary workers are not given
anti-viral medication or a vaccine when it becomes available, they will
likely stay home, said Robert Fells, external chief operating officer
for the International Cemetery and Funeral Association. "Ironically,
funeral directors were at the bottom of the list," he said. White House
officials said a priority list for medicine and vaccine has not been
finalized.
"Noticeably absent from the discussion" at Fort Monroe were
representatives of the Department of Homeland Security, even though
they will have overall coordinating responsibility in a pandemic, said
Fitch. "Right now, there is no single agency or individual responsible
for mass fatalities."
However, much of the burden will fall to local communities and the
states, Bush administration officials said.
Virginia's chief medical examiner, Marcella Fierro, said local
hospitals, funeral homes and health departments must take the lead, but
the state is trying to help now by developing software systems for
clerical tasks such as keeping track of the dead and contacting next of
kin. She is also compiling a list of retired employees who could step
in.
One of the many lessons to emerge from Hurricane Katrina is that
Americans are not accustomed to seeing unattended bodies on the streets
of a major city, said Michael Osterholm, head of the Center for
Infectious Disease Research & Policy at the University of Minnesota. He
said less-developed countries may be better positioned to deal with
huge numbers of flu fatalities.
If the next pandemic strikes with the same ferocity as the 1918 flu,
even the most thorough planning will not prepare people for the
emotional toll of such widespread death.
"We've forgotten that people do die from infectious diseases, and our
process of dying has become very sanitized," said Norwood, who is also
a psychiatrist. "For the whole Western world, it's going to be a
shock."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060900078.html
.
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| User: "David Lesher" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
12 Jun 2006 09:41:06 PM |
|
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> writes:
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Die Now, and Beat the Rush!!!
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
.
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
09 Jun 2006 07:52:59 PM |
|
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
=====
"A Grisly but Essential Issue"
"Pandemic Plan Skims Over How to Deal With Many Corpses"
By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 9, 2006; A09
They brought in steam shovels to dig graves. Caskets were rented --
just long enough to hold a brief memorial service -- then passed on to
the next grieving family. The death toll of the 1918 flu pandemic was
so overwhelming that the military commandeered entire trains to
transport dead soldiers; priests patrolled the streets of Philadelphia
in horse-drawn carriages, collecting bodies from doorsteps.
"One of the most demoralizing things was the inability to move bodies
out of the home," said John M. Barry, author of "The Great Influenza,"
the definitive work on the 1918 pandemic. "They just literally stacked
up, sometimes for three, four or five days."
Now, with medical experts and government leaders racing to prepare for
a potential pandemic, a cadre of mortuary specialists has begun quietly
grappling with the grisly but essential question of what to do with the
dead if it happens again.
Opinion is varied on when and how virulent the next global flu outbreak
would be, but even a modest epidemic -- similar to the pandemic that
hit in 1968 -- could kill between 89,000 and 207,000 Americans. If the
next virus mimics the far more potent 1918 strain, the U.S. death toll
could reach 1.9 million.
"It's almost too big to wrap your arms around," said John Nesler, a
specialist in mass fatalities advising the military. If the worst were
to occur, Nesler predicted the impact would be akin to "20 nuclear
detonations" simultaneously knocking out multiple cities and towns.
In either case, experts foresee an 18-month period of funeral homes
being short-staffed, crematories operating round-the-clock, dwindling
supplies of caskets and restrictions on group gatherings such as
memorial services. Morgues and hospitals would quickly reach capacity.
And most of the federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Teams
(DMORT) would be too busy in their own communities to deploy elsewhere.
"I can't see myself packing my bags to go to another state to help
out," said Joyce deJong, a Michigan medical examiner who worked on
DMORT teams after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and Hurricane Katrina.
"I'll be here dealing with an increase in the number of bodies."
Some fear that the Bush administration, in all its detailed planning
for pandemic flu, has paid scant attention to fatalities.
"It's the one thing nobody wants to address, because it's ugly. People
don't want to think that anyone will die," said John Fitch, senior vice
president for advocacy at the National Funeral Directors Association.
"We can't put our head in the sand and say response stops at prevention
and treatment."
In the 227-page response plan recently released by the White House, the
term "medical examiner" appears just once -- and "autopsy" not at all.
A single paragraph on page 112 recommends that hospitals, medical
examiners and government officials "assess current capacity for
refrigeration of deceased persons, discuss mass fatality plans and
identify temporary morgue sites" to handle surges.
Officials say much more is happening behind the scenes. In March, the
administration helped organize a two-day conference at Fort Monroe in
Virginia with medical examiners, funeral directors, public health
experts and casket makers. Among the more innovative, albeit jarring,
ideas being considered are backyard burials, virtual funerals and
storing bodies at ice hockey rinks.
Seattle's King County came up with the ice rink idea when officials
realized their mass fatality plan would accommodate no more than 50
deaths, perhaps in a plane crash, said interim health director Dorothy
Teeter.
"This is so much bigger," she said. "We project 11,000 potential deaths
in six to eight weeks."
Several participants said they will have to consider temporary mass
graves because they will not have the staff to keep up, especially if
some of their workers or family members contract the flu.
"They would bury the person with all the identification material and
carefully keep track of that information," said Ann Norwood, a senior
analyst at the Office of Public Health Emergency Preparedness at the
Department of Health and Human Services. "After things calm down, we
can locate the family, exhume the casket and put it wherever the family
ultimately would like the body to rest."
"Virtual funerals" broadcast over closed-circuit television or the
Internet would be advised, said Nesler, who ran the Fort Monroe
conference. "The very worst thing you can do during an epidemic is have
large gatherings of people" such as memorial services, he said. Some
families may bury relatives on their own property, said deJong, who is
also chairwoman of the mass fatality management committee of the
National Association of Medical Examiners.
In a pandemic, one problem would likely trigger several more, Norwood
said. Fuel shortages, for instance, would mean added complications
transporting bodies and keeping refrigerated trucks cool.
If funeral directors and other mortuary workers are not given
anti-viral medication or a vaccine when it becomes available, they will
likely stay home, said Robert Fells, external chief operating officer
for the International Cemetery and Funeral Association. "Ironically,
funeral directors were at the bottom of the list," he said. White House
officials said a priority list for medicine and vaccine has not been
finalized.
"Noticeably absent from the discussion" at Fort Monroe were
representatives of the Department of Homeland Security, even though
they will have overall coordinating responsibility in a pandemic, said
Fitch. "Right now, there is no single agency or individual responsible
for mass fatalities."
However, much of the burden will fall to local communities and the
states, Bush administration officials said.
Virginia's chief medical examiner, Marcella Fierro, said local
hospitals, funeral homes and health departments must take the lead, but
the state is trying to help now by developing software systems for
clerical tasks such as keeping track of the dead and contacting next of
kin. She is also compiling a list of retired employees who could step
in.
One of the many lessons to emerge from Hurricane Katrina is that
Americans are not accustomed to seeing unattended bodies on the streets
of a major city, said Michael Osterholm, head of the Center for
Infectious Disease Research & Policy at the University of Minnesota. He
said less-developed countries may be better positioned to deal with
huge numbers of flu fatalities.
If the next pandemic strikes with the same ferocity as the 1918 flu,
even the most thorough planning will not prepare people for the
emotional toll of such widespread death.
"We've forgotten that people do die from infectious diseases, and our
process of dying has become very sanitized," said Norwood, who is also
a psychiatrist. "For the whole Western world, it's going to be a
shock."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060
900078.html
And someone would care because ....
.
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| User: "Hotel Charlie One" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
09 Jun 2006 07:17:48 PM |
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Are you saying I cannot fulfill my after-worldly mission of being worm
food? What will I do now?
--
The actions of the disgraceful Clinton and Bush administrations
make it possible for me to say without shame that I deeply regret
the day I put the uniform of my country. The freedoms that I was
willing to protect with my life are gone. The America of our founders
is dead. All we are waiting for now is rigor mortis.
HotelCharlieOne
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
18 Jun 2006 07:08:54 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:17:48 GMT, Hotel Charlie One
<hotel_charlie_one@yahoo.com> wrote:
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Are you saying I cannot fulfill my after-worldly mission of being worm
food? What will I do now?
The Zoroastrian method seems most appropriate under the circumstances,
and has the added advantage of lowering property values post mortem,
if you use the roof instead of a tower!
--
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
attrib: Pauline Réage. Cine To DVD? http://www.video2cd.co.uk
.
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| User: "Howard C. Berkowitz" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
09 Jun 2006 09:33:32 PM |
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
Some who feel such apparently fail to read the professional literature in
public health, where this issue is nothing new. Further, there is a great
fear of dead bodies as sources of disease, but, in general, they are not.
Some excellent, if grisly, work was done by the Turkish public health people
in one of their earthquakes. They clearly didn't have the resources for
burying all the bodies, so they buried all in certain areas and very few in
other, comparable ones.
Surprise! The death rate did not go up, although the situation certainly was
unpleasant, in the areas where burial was delayed. Essentially, bodies are
risks if the killing disease is waterborne and the bodies contaminate the
water supply. Influenza is a respiratory disease, and few corpses cough or
sneeze. Insect vectors of other diseases won't bite cold bodies and collect
the pathogenic organisms.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Well, yes. This has been part of civil defense planning since the fifties.
Are you looking for some revelation?
There may be need for additional psychiatric services during an influenza
outbreak, but the bodies aren't a source of contagion.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 04:26:20 AM |
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 07:14:47 AM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4evhi2F1fj6ktU1@individual.net>...
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might not
be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will have
to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will be
compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked mortuaries
and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
I'm planning on not being aware of what's actually done...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 01:04:51 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:Tuudnft2H8cqKhfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@megapath.net...
Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4evhi2F1fj6ktU1@individual.net>...
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might not
be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will have
to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will be
compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked mortuaries
and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
I'm planning on not being aware of what's actually done...
Well, hopefully that will be the case with me as well ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 03:44:40 PM |
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Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4f0fu9F1h1j8fU1@individual.net>...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:Tuudnft2H8cqKhfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@megapath.net...
Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4evhi2F1fj6ktU1@individual.net>...
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials
will be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
I'm planning on not being aware of what's actually done...
Well, hopefully that will be the case with me as well ;)
I have suspicions that's generally the case...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 04:01:21 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:K-6dneJHNrilshbZnZ2dnUVZ_o-dnZ2d@megapath.net...
Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4f0fu9F1h1j8fU1@individual.net>...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:Tuudnft2H8cqKhfZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@megapath.net...
Previously, on alt.atheism, Robibnikoff in episode
<4evhi2F1fj6ktU1@individual.net>...
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials
will be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
I'm planning on not being aware of what's actually done...
Well, hopefully that will be the case with me as well ;)
I have suspicions that's generally the case...
Wow - How spooky that we're on the same wavelength. Oooooooooooooooh!
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 04:47:42 AM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
Yup. Land belongs to the living.
"..golf courses and graveyards are the biggest wastes of prime real
estate in the country!"
-Rodney Dangerfield as Al Czervic, "Caddyshack"
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 05:31:58 AM |
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<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149932862.733368.183670@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Robibnikoff wrote:
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
Don't know, but I plan on being cremated anyway.
Yup. Land belongs to the living.
Exactly. I personally got a great deal of satisfaction spreading around my
dad's ashes (randy, unfaithful ***** he turned out to be). It just
seemed, I don't know, "better" than taking up space in a cemetary (though I
do like strolling through cemetaries). I know there's a little bit of him
in the parking lot of his favorite diner, some more on the grounds of a
local historical home he worked on and the remainder in the pond in the
backyard of my parents' old house ;)
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
.
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| User: "TOliver" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
09 Jun 2006 09:31:21 PM |
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"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
A. Gasoline is too expensive and not very effective. Ask the crew in
Berlin, April 25, 1945....
B. The mechanics of cremation on amass cale would require preparation on a
scale far too enormous to contemplate. Then you'd have to have access to
the natural gas, which with the pandemic in cold weather, would be in great
demand elsewhere.
C. The EPA would never allow that much particulate and other gasses into
the atmosphere, even in a pandemic.
When some one rears this ugly head, I'm always reminded of the Great
Galveston Storm of 1900, somewhere between 7,000 and 20,000 dead or missing
(How's that for a spread?).
The survivors loaded the bodies aboard barges, had the barges towed to deep
water in the Gulf and scuttled....
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very beaches
from whence they had come...
TM "Bloated, he floated, wafted on the gentle breeze like a Portugee Man
o'War" Oliver
.
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| User: "jmcgill" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
12 Jun 2006 01:25:05 PM |
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TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very beaches
from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline,
but this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
.
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| User: "TOliver" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
17 Jun 2006 11:05:11 AM |
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"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:_jijg.13500$_c1.6303@fed1read05...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline, but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid. 6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
TMO
.
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| User: "Howard C. Berkowitz" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
17 Jun 2006 09:48:02 PM |
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"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:XKVkg.317$vU.118@tornado.texas.rr.com...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:_jijg.13500$_c1.6303@fed1read05...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline, but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
.
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| User: "Lawson English" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
17 Jun 2006 10:29:55 PM |
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Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:XKVkg.317$vU.118@tornado.texas.rr.com...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:_jijg.13500$_c1.6303@fed1read05...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline, but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
Well, I'd say "less dangerous." Rotting corpses in the water supply
aren't exactly safe.
.
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| User: "Howard C. Berkowitz" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
18 Jun 2006 04:06:10 AM |
|
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"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
news:SM3lg.250632$5Z.66862@dukeread02...
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:XKVkg.317$vU.118@tornado.texas.rr.com...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:_jijg.13500$_c1.6303@fed1read05...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding
environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline,
but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the
sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and
the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must
have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an
excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into
the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be
failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had
withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal
survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a
place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria
are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria
victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
Well, I'd say "less dangerous." Rotting corpses in the water supply
aren't exactly safe.
Not necessarily a major hazard. Assuming a reasonably large body of water,
so chemical decomposition products are diluted, which pathogenic organisms
would be more of a hazard -- assuming that the cause of death was not
normally spread through water, such as Salmonella typhi (typhoid) or Vibrio
cholerae (cholera)?
.
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| User: "La N" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
17 Jun 2006 10:33:00 PM |
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"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
news:SM3lg.250632$5Z.66862@dukeread02...
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:XKVkg.317$vU.118@tornado.texas.rr.com...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:_jijg.13500$_c1.6303@fed1read05...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding
environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline,
but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the
sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and
the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must
have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into
the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be
failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had
withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal
survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria
are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria
victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
Well, I'd say "less dangerous." Rotting corpses in the water supply aren't
exactly safe.
All of the above suggest to me (imported) beer drinking is safe. Stay away
from the water!
- nilita
.
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| User: "TOliver" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
18 Jun 2006 03:47:32 PM |
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"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote...
"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
news:SM3lg.250632$5Z.66862@dukeread02...
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding
environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline,
but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the
sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and
the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must
have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an
excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into
the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be
failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had
withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal
survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a
place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria
are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria
victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
Well, I'd say "less dangerous." Rotting corpses in the water supply
aren't exactly safe.
All of the above suggest to me (imported) beer drinking is safe. Stay
away from the water!
Whatever one's opinion of the current product, the legendary Augustus Busch
built ice plants along Southern railroads to keep his shipped product cool
along the way to the drinkers' mugs. In cities like Galveston, the drinking
water collected from rain and held in attic cisterns - my great
grandfather's house had a cast iron roof with gutters to channel the
runoff - was an "iffy" proposition at best, and local wells were both
brackish and subject to contamination. Beer was always the purest, safest
drink (as it had been since ancient times). Today's water supply comes from
mainland wells across the causeway.
TM "Passed Busch's Waco building on way to lunch, menudo y gorditas in the
barrio." Oliver
.
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| User: "La N" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
18 Jun 2006 04:57:26 PM |
|
|
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:EZilg.9350$vU.1460@tornado.texas.rr.com...
"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote...
"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote in message
news:SM3lg.250632$5Z.66862@dukeread02...
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
"TOliver" <toliverjrFIX@Hot.rr.com> wrote...
"jmcgill" <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote...
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore
currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very
beaches from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding
environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium. It
may
be unpleasant to imagine the sight of dead bodies along a coastline,
but
this is not necessarily the recipe for disease that some appear to
believe.
In a city even then noted for its sandy beaches and gentle surf, the
sight
must have severely off-putted the touristric contingents....
In 1900, what would have been the perspective of civil authorities and
the
medical community re: the health risks of bodies on the beach?
Apparently, at least according to photos, the local authorities must
have
gathered the returnees layereed into pyres with drying lumber from the
destroyed homes, etc.. I suppose that at some point the nautical
archeologists at Texas A&M/Galveston will be dispatched to an
excavation
that reveals layers of charcoal and teeth. Given the fill pumped into
the
city after the seawall was built, any burial pits would have to be
failrly
deep and with the high water table their contents might have dispersed
over
time. I don't recall any one (I used to spend a great deal of time in
Galveston, my mother's home - a house dating from 1873 which had
withstood
the storm - and in my childhood there were still plenty of vocal
survivors
about) ever mention any post-Hurricane epidemics. Of course, in a
place
like Galveston, malaria was a major scourge, Yellow Fever made regular
appearances, and every family had tombstones noting cholera or
typhoid.
6'
or so above sea level made for poor sewage runoff.
Good example, in a way. Bodies containing typhoid or cholera bacteria
are
extremely dangerous if they decompose in the water supply. Malaria
victims'
bodies are not, because the mosquitoes won't bite corpses.
Well, I'd say "less dangerous." Rotting corpses in the water supply
aren't exactly safe.
All of the above suggest to me (imported) beer drinking is safe. Stay
away from the water!
Whatever one's opinion of the current product, the legendary Augustus
Busch built ice plants along Southern railroads to keep his shipped
product cool along the way to the drinkers' mugs. In cities like
Galveston, the drinking water collected from rain and held in attic
cisterns - my great grandfather's house had a cast iron roof with gutters
to channel the runoff - was an "iffy" proposition at best, and local wells
were both brackish and subject to contamination. Beer was always the
purest, safest drink (as it had been since ancient times). Today's water
supply comes from mainland wells across the causeway.
TM "Passed Busch's Waco building on way to lunch, menudo y gorditas in the
barrio." Oliver
I seem to recall my grandparents in Saskatchewan (immigrants from Europe)
making sauerkraut by fermenting cabbage in barrels outside their house. I
also remember chickens hopping around at times on top of those open barrels
.... :(
- nilita
.
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| User: "Derek Lyons" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
19 Jun 2006 01:33:16 AM |
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jmcgill <jmcgill@email.arizona.edu> wrote:
TOliver wrote:
OK for a couple of weeks, until the warm water and the offshore currents
combined to bloat'em and float'em ashore, returning them to the very beaches
from whence they had come...
Well, once they are the same temperature as the surrounding environment,
their carrying capacity for bacteria also reaches an equilibrium.
The operators of the Body Farm might be *very* surprised to learn of
this.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
.
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| User: "jmcgill" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
19 Jun 2006 01:46:48 PM |
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Derek Lyons wrote:
The operators of the Body Farm might be *very* surprised to learn of
this.
My understanding comes from trusted source (a research physician) and
the context was a discussion about why the tsunami relief workers were
just leaving the bodies where they lay. I was shocked by the idea, but
apparently it's well accepted. Am I misinformed?
.
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| User: "James H. Hood" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 02:27:24 AM |
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MissSouth <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Yeah, so what? I'd be DEAD, thus beyond giving a hoot.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 07:15:22 AM |
|
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Previously, on alt.atheism, MissSouth in episode
<1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might not
be achieveble--or advisable.
Okay. But if I'm dead, I'll care what they do with the corpse how?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "john" |
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| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 06:40:07 AM |
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there wont be a pandemic, it is a scare to sell drugs and keep the fear
levels up to sell more drugs
remember, we were all going to die from SARS.
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
=====
"A Grisly but Essential Issue"
"Pandemic Plan Skims Over How to Deal With Many Corpses"
By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 9, 2006; A09
They brought in steam shovels to dig graves. Caskets were rented --
just long enough to hold a brief memorial service -- then passed on to
the next grieving family. The death toll of the 1918 flu pandemic was
so overwhelming that the military commandeered entire trains to
transport dead soldiers; priests patrolled the streets of Philadelphia
in horse-drawn carriages, collecting bodies from doorsteps.
"One of the most demoralizing things was the inability to move bodies
out of the home," said John M. Barry, author of "The Great Influenza,"
the definitive work on the 1918 pandemic. "They just literally stacked
up, sometimes for three, four or five days."
Now, with medical experts and government leaders racing to prepare for
a potential pandemic, a cadre of mortuary specialists has begun quietly
grappling with the grisly but essential question of what to do with the
dead if it happens again.
Opinion is varied on when and how virulent the next global flu outbreak
would be, but even a modest epidemic -- similar to the pandemic that
hit in 1968 -- could kill between 89,000 and 207,000 Americans. If the
next virus mimics the far more potent 1918 strain, the U.S. death toll
could reach 1.9 million.
"It's almost too big to wrap your arms around," said John Nesler, a
specialist in mass fatalities advising the military. If the worst were
to occur, Nesler predicted the impact would be akin to "20 nuclear
detonations" simultaneously knocking out multiple cities and towns.
In either case, experts foresee an 18-month period of funeral homes
being short-staffed, crematories operating round-the-clock, dwindling
supplies of caskets and restrictions on group gatherings such as
memorial services. Morgues and hospitals would quickly reach capacity.
And most of the federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Teams
(DMORT) would be too busy in their own communities to deploy elsewhere.
"I can't see myself packing my bags to go to another state to help
out," said Joyce deJong, a Michigan medical examiner who worked on
DMORT teams after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and Hurricane Katrina.
"I'll be here dealing with an increase in the number of bodies."
Some fear that the Bush administration, in all its detailed planning
for pandemic flu, has paid scant attention to fatalities.
"It's the one thing nobody wants to address, because it's ugly. People
don't want to think that anyone will die," said John Fitch, senior vice
president for advocacy at the National Funeral Directors Association.
"We can't put our head in the sand and say response stops at prevention
and treatment."
In the 227-page response plan recently released by the White House, the
term "medical examiner" appears just once -- and "autopsy" not at all.
A single paragraph on page 112 recommends that hospitals, medical
examiners and government officials "assess current capacity for
refrigeration of deceased persons, discuss mass fatality plans and
identify temporary morgue sites" to handle surges.
Officials say much more is happening behind the scenes. In March, the
administration helped organize a two-day conference at Fort Monroe in
Virginia with medical examiners, funeral directors, public health
experts and casket makers. Among the more innovative, albeit jarring,
ideas being considered are backyard burials, virtual funerals and
storing bodies at ice hockey rinks.
Seattle's King County came up with the ice rink idea when officials
realized their mass fatality plan would accommodate no more than 50
deaths, perhaps in a plane crash, said interim health director Dorothy
Teeter.
"This is so much bigger," she said. "We project 11,000 potential deaths
in six to eight weeks."
Several participants said they will have to consider temporary mass
graves because they will not have the staff to keep up, especially if
some of their workers or family members contract the flu.
"They would bury the person with all the identification material and
carefully keep track of that information," said Ann Norwood, a senior
analyst at the Office of Public Health Emergency Preparedness at the
Department of Health and Human Services. "After things calm down, we
can locate the family, exhume the casket and put it wherever the family
ultimately would like the body to rest."
"Virtual funerals" broadcast over closed-circuit television or the
Internet would be advised, said Nesler, who ran the Fort Monroe
conference. "The very worst thing you can do during an epidemic is have
large gatherings of people" such as memorial services, he said. Some
families may bury relatives on their own property, said deJong, who is
also chairwoman of the mass fatality management committee of the
National Association of Medical Examiners.
In a pandemic, one problem would likely trigger several more, Norwood
said. Fuel shortages, for instance, would mean added complications
transporting bodies and keeping refrigerated trucks cool.
If funeral directors and other mortuary workers are not given
anti-viral medication or a vaccine when it becomes available, they will
likely stay home, said Robert Fells, external chief operating officer
for the International Cemetery and Funeral Association. "Ironically,
funeral directors were at the bottom of the list," he said. White House
officials said a priority list for medicine and vaccine has not been
finalized.
"Noticeably absent from the discussion" at Fort Monroe were
representatives of the Department of Homeland Security, even though
they will have overall coordinating responsibility in a pandemic, said
Fitch. "Right now, there is no single agency or individual responsible
for mass fatalities."
However, much of the burden will fall to local communities and the
states, Bush administration officials said.
Virginia's chief medical examiner, Marcella Fierro, said local
hospitals, funeral homes and health departments must take the lead, but
the state is trying to help now by developing software systems for
clerical tasks such as keeping track of the dead and contacting next of
kin. She is also compiling a list of retired employees who could step
in.
One of the many lessons to emerge from Hurricane Katrina is that
Americans are not accustomed to seeing unattended bodies on the streets
of a major city, said Michael Osterholm, head of the Center for
Infectious Disease Research & Policy at the University of Minnesota. He
said less-developed countries may be better positioned to deal with
huge numbers of flu fatalities.
If the next pandemic strikes with the same ferocity as the 1918 flu,
even the most thorough planning will not prepare people for the
emotional toll of such widespread death.
"We've forgotten that people do die from infectious diseases, and our
process of dying has become very sanitized," said Norwood, who is also
a psychiatrist. "For the whole Western world, it's going to be a
shock."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060900078.html
.
|
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|
| User: "Howard C. Berkowitz" |
|
| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
10 Jun 2006 03:08:34 PM |
|
|
"john" <sc@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vI6dnUFf0aoIMhfZnZ2dnUVZ8qednZ2d@bt.com...
there wont be a pandemic, it is a scare to sell drugs and keep the fear
levels up to sell more drugs
Oh? Which drugs?
remember, we were all going to die from SARS.
Want to try to come up with support from that from a professional public
health source, rather than a tabloid?
"MissSouth" <lilhornie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149898227.340705.287720@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
If and when a global avian flu pandemic occurs, medical experts and
government planners hint that "proper burials" as we know them might
not be achieveble--or advisable.
Under a mountain of dead bodies, officials are saying that local and
national disease centers will simply be unable to handle tens of
thousands of flu victims' dead bodies. It's possible the dead will
have to either be buried in mass graves--or, worst case--officials will
be compelled to order mass cremation of bodies that over-worked
mortuaries and undertakers will have to turn away.
Some feel It might be wise, now, to launch studies to determine the
impact such a scenario could present.
In the wake of such chaos and death, would national, state, and local
governments move to place an outright BAN on customary interment?
=====
"A Grisly but Essential Issue"
"Pandemic Plan Skims Over How to Deal With Many Corpses"
By Ceci Connolly
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 9, 2006; A09
They brought in steam shovels to dig graves. Caskets were rented --
just long enough to hold a brief memorial service -- then passed on to
the next grieving family. The death toll of the 1918 flu pandemic was
so overwhelming that the military commandeered entire trains to
transport dead soldiers; priests patrolled the streets of Philadelphia
in horse-drawn carriages, collecting bodies from doorsteps.
"One of the most demoralizing things was the inability to move bodies
out of the home," said John M. Barry, author of "The Great Influenza,"
the definitive work on the 1918 pandemic. "They just literally stacked
up, sometimes for three, four or five days."
Now, with medical experts and government leaders racing to prepare for
a potential pandemic, a cadre of mortuary specialists has begun quietly
grappling with the grisly but essential question of what to do with the
dead if it happens again.
Opinion is varied on when and how virulent the next global flu outbreak
would be, but even a modest epidemic -- similar to the pandemic that
hit in 1968 -- could kill between 89,000 and 207,000 Americans. If the
next virus mimics the far more potent 1918 strain, the U.S. death toll
could reach 1.9 million.
"It's almost too big to wrap your arms around," said John Nesler, a
specialist in mass fatalities advising the military. If the worst were
to occur, Nesler predicted the impact would be akin to "20 nuclear
detonations" simultaneously knocking out multiple cities and towns.
In either case, experts foresee an 18-month period of funeral homes
being short-staffed, crematories operating round-the-clock, dwindling
supplies of caskets and restrictions on group gatherings such as
memorial services. Morgues and hospitals would quickly reach capacity.
And most of the federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Teams
(DMORT) would be too busy in their own communities to deploy elsewhere.
"I can't see myself packing my bags to go to another state to help
out," said Joyce deJong, a Michigan medical examiner who worked on
DMORT teams after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and Hurricane Katrina.
"I'll be here dealing with an increase in the number of bodies."
Some fear that the Bush administration, in all its detailed planning
for pandemic flu, has paid scant attention to fatalities.
"It's the one thing nobody wants to address, because it's ugly. People
don't want to think that anyone will die," said John Fitch, senior vice
president for advocacy at the National Funeral Directors Association.
"We can't put our head in the sand and say response stops at prevention
and treatment."
In the 227-page response plan recently released by the White House, the
term "medical examiner" appears just once -- and "autopsy" not at all.
A single paragraph on page 112 recommends that hospitals, medical
examiners and government officials "assess current capacity for
refrigeration of deceased persons, discuss mass fatality plans and
identify temporary morgue sites" to handle surges.
Officials say much more is happening behind the scenes. In March, the
administration helped organize a two-day conference at Fort Monroe in
Virginia with medical examiners, funeral directors, public health
experts and casket makers. Among the more innovative, albeit jarring,
ideas being considered are backyard burials, virtual funerals and
storing bodies at ice hockey rinks.
Seattle's King County came up with the ice rink idea when officials
realized their mass fatality plan would accommodate no more than 50
deaths, perhaps in a plane crash, said interim health director Dorothy
Teeter.
"This is so much bigger," she said. "We project 11,000 potential deaths
in six to eight weeks."
Several participants said they will have to consider temporary mass
graves because they will not have the staff to keep up, especially if
some of their workers or family members contract the flu.
"They would bury the person with all the identification material and
carefully keep track of that information," said Ann Norwood, a senior
analyst at the Office of Public Health Emergency Preparedness at the
Department of Health and Human Services. "After things calm down, we
can locate the family, exhume the casket and put it wherever the family
ultimately would like the body to rest."
"Virtual funerals" broadcast over closed-circuit television or the
Internet would be advised, said Nesler, who ran the Fort Monroe
conference. "The very worst thing you can do during an epidemic is have
large gatherings of people" such as memorial services, he said. Some
families may bury relatives on their own property, said deJong, who is
also chairwoman of the mass fatality management committee of the
National Association of Medical Examiners.
In a pandemic, one problem would likely trigger several more, Norwood
said. Fuel shortages, for instance, would mean added complications
transporting bodies and keeping refrigerated trucks cool.
If funeral directors and other mortuary workers are not given
anti-viral medication or a vaccine when it becomes available, they will
likely stay home, said Robert Fells, external chief operating officer
for the International Cemetery and Funeral Association. "Ironically,
funeral directors were at the bottom of the list," he said. White House
officials said a priority list for medicine and vaccine has not been
finalized.
"Noticeably absent from the discussion" at Fort Monroe were
representatives of the Department of Homeland Security, even though
they will have overall coordinating responsibility in a pandemic, said
Fitch. "Right now, there is no single agency or individual responsible
for mass fatalities."
However, much of the burden will fall to local communities and the
states, Bush administration officials said.
Virginia's chief medical examiner, Marcella Fierro, said local
hospitals, funeral homes and health departments must take the lead, but
the state is trying to help now by developing software systems for
clerical tasks such as keeping track of the dead and contacting next of
kin. She is also compiling a list of retired employees who could step
in.
One of the many lessons to emerge from Hurricane Katrina is that
Americans are not accustomed to seeing unattended bodies on the streets
of a major city, said Michael Osterholm, head of the Center for
Infectious Disease Research & Policy at the University of Minnesota. He
said less-developed countries may be better positioned to deal with
huge numbers of flu fatalities.
If the next pandemic strikes with the same ferocity as the 1918 flu,
even the most thorough planning will not prepare people for the
emotional toll of such widespread death.
"We've forgotten that people do die from infectious diseases, and our
process of dying has become very sanitized," said Norwood, who is also
a psychiatrist. "For the whole Western world, it's going to be a
shock."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060900078.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "john" |
|
| Title: Re: YOU MIGHTN'T BE BURIED If You Die In A Bird Flu Pandemic! |
11 Jun 2006 01:44:37 AM |
|
|
"Howard C. Berkow | | | |