*** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? ***


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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Pastor Dave"
Date: 26 May 2005 03:39:25 PM
Object: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? ***
Alexiastation,
Are you going to respond to my message, or not?
You talk about wanting a polite discussion. I offered
one. You have ignored it and then posted elsewhere,
making more claims about the end times and calling me
blind. Why are you afraid to discuss the issue with
me, Beth?

It is enough to know that HE promised to return
and I don't know about you but he hasn't yet,

You see Beth, here is the problem...
You claim that He is going to return.
Yet you have admitted that he has returned.
That means you're saying that He is to return twice.
Where does the Bible say that He will return twice.

I don't have streets paved in gold do you?

So you think that's what is going to happen?
You take that literally?
Okay, I'll give you the credit and say that those words
are actually there. For once, you have said something
that can be found in the Bible and I applaud you for
that! I really do. Therefore, I am willing to discuss
this issue with you and let us see if it is a literal
statement.
I do however, expect the following points to be
thoroughly covered and examined in this discussion.
If you leave any of them out, then we will not continue
and you default to a state of dishonesty. I think you
will agree that I am not being unreasonable here,
since you mentioned all three points that I wish to
cover, in your other post. Therefore, I am only asking
you to verify your own words that you yourself wrote.
The points are...
1) You must show me the words where it says that Jesus
will return twice. That does not mean that you tell us
that this means this and that means that. I WANT TO
SEE THE WORDS!
2) You must resolve the time line problem. There is no
play for the word "generation", since it isn't
mentioned in Matthew 16:24-28.
3) You prove that the statement about streets paved
with gold is meant literally and I will seek to do the
opposite.
All correspondence will be polite and when quoting
Scripture, you must quote the Scripture you are
referencing and tell me what you think it means and
why. I will do the same. In other words, just pasting
in a passage and assuming that everyone in the world
reads it the way we do, is ridiculous, don't you think?
We should also discuss this between the two of us,
to avoid distraction and to avoid getting sidetracked.
Are we agreed on this? If so, then no more firing off.
Just a polite discussion/debate. That is what I'm
offering here.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.

User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 28 May 2005 05:11:03 PM
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5kcc91l9f8pl717u2crlskkjcj7uccf7am@4ax.com...

Alexiastation,

Are you going to respond to my message, or not?

You talk about wanting a polite discussion. I offered
one. You have ignored it and then posted elsewhere,
making more claims about the end times and calling me
blind. Why are you afraid to discuss the issue with
me, Beth?

Firstly, I don't remember asking for a polite discussion, I remember making
a comment though and saying it is a good topic. I am not afraid Dave, I
simply don't have the time needed for the depth. I can't believe that you
are saying that Christ never said He would return.......well slap me silly,
I suppose all the preachers out here don't know they are spreading lies.
Come on you know it is in there,,,or don't you?
I have a youngone at the door needing my attention but I will pause briefly
to scan what you write here.


It is enough to know that HE promised to return
and I don't know about you but he hasn't yet,


You see Beth, here is the problem...

You claim that He is going to return.

Yet you have admitted that he has returned.

That means you're saying that He is to return twice.

Where does the Bible say that He will return twice.

***** Will provide a passage for comment when I attend the little one, and
firstly you can't act ignorant on this because all of us that are in the
U.S. born and raised and have been to bible study as a child even, at one
time or another know the difference between HE came and died on the cross
and He will return with power and great glory in like manner.

I don't have streets paved in gold do you?


So you think that's what is going to happen?
You take that literally?
** yup it is literal and His many promises are true, yup believe it 100%.
Okay, I'll give you the credit and say that those words
are actually there. For once, you have said something
that can be found in the Bible and I applaud you for
that! I really do. Therefore, I am willing to discuss
this issue with you and let us see if it is a literal
statement.

Your mocking again, I do give references, what you know is still there Dave,
you just want me to buy into whatever view you have on it, I see the bible
as literal and I know He will return because He is not a liar and His word
clearly states in many passages that I know you have read, it says so. If
you don't take that He will literally return how can you discuss it with me,
because I do take it literal and posting bible verses will not change that
for either of us I suppose.
*Okay will read this as soon as I change a diaper, let the dog out, get a
cup of coffee and make supper.' See I told you I was busy.

I do however, expect the following points to be
thoroughly covered and examined in this discussion.
If you leave any of them out, then we will not continue
and you default to a state of dishonesty. I think you
will agree that I am not being unreasonable here,
since you mentioned all three points that I wish to
cover, in your other post. Therefore, I am only asking
you to verify your own words that you yourself wrote.
The points are...

1) You must show me the words where it says that Jesus
will return twice. That does not mean that you tell us
that this means this and that means that. I WANT TO
SEE THE WORDS!

2) You must resolve the time line problem. There is no
play for the word "generation", since it isn't
mentioned in Matthew 16:24-28.

3) You prove that the statement about streets paved
with gold is meant literally and I will seek to do the
opposite.

All correspondence will be polite and when quoting
Scripture, you must quote the Scripture you are
referencing and tell me what you think it means and
why. I will do the same. In other words, just pasting
in a passage and assuming that everyone in the world
reads it the way we do, is ridiculous, don't you think?

We should also discuss this between the two of us,
to avoid distraction and to avoid getting sidetracked.

Are we agreed on this? If so, then no more firing off.
Just a polite discussion/debate. That is what I'm
offering here.

--

Pastor Dave

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

http://tinyurl.com/ce97m

.
User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 28 May 2005 06:53:40 PM
2 Peter
1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye
take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn,
and the day star arise in your hearts:
King James (Authorized) Version
We would do well to take heed as a light that shines in a dark place. So
that makes a statement about what prophecy is in the bible.
______________________________________
Now see this statement as Peter continues......
1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private
interpretation.
1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of
God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
............................
Not for private interpretation........the Holy Spirit wrote the bible.
__________________________________
As stated by: John Walvoord. dean of prophecy at Dallas Theological
Seminary, Quote- "1000 bible prophecies documented in the last century have
already been fulfilled. This assures us that the rest of the bible prophecy,
which has so much to do with our future, will also be fulfilled."
____________________________________________
John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you.*****He goes to prepare a place
for us.............
14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
******And if He goes to prepare a place he will COME AGAIN......
see again, 14:28
14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If
ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I.
***And come again unto you...........
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 28 May 2005 07:04:03 PM
On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:53:40 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

2 Peter
1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye
take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn,
and the day star arise in your hearts:

King James (Authorized) Version

We would do well to take heed as a light that shines in a dark place. So
that makes a statement about what prophecy is in the bible.
______________________________________

Now see this statement as Peter continues......
1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private
interpretation.

1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of
God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
...........................
Not for private interpretation........the Holy Spirit wrote the bible.
__________________________________

As stated by: John Walvoord. dean of prophecy at Dallas Theological
Seminary, Quote- "1000 bible prophecies documented in the last century have
already been fulfilled. This assures us that the rest of the bible prophecy,
which has so much to do with our future, will also be fulfilled."
____________________________________________
John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you.*****He goes to prepare a place
for us.............

14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
******And if He goes to prepare a place he will COME AGAIN......
see again, 14:28
14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If
ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my
Father is greater than I.

***And come again unto you...........

1) That was written in the first century, not the 21st,
so trying to claim that He has not returned yet, based
on that, is not sound interpretation. The only thing
that can be said, whether He returned yet or not, is
that it was future to the writer, who wrote in the
first century.
2) Jesus also said that in His Father's house are many
mansions. He didn't say "hotels" and imply a temporary
stay.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.


User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 28 May 2005 06:33:31 PM
Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone. You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?
How can I change your views? You know as well as I do that the bible states
that Christ will come again. If I show you a verse you will say it doesn't
say that your the one saying that, and in turn you will do the same for your
point of view and I will say the verse doesn't state that. What would be the
point if that is not what you are going to believe, no matter how it is
presented>? And I say, show me in the bible where it states that he is *not
returning and there will not be streets of gold and we will not sit at the
throne with Him, and where it says that Christ will never reign one thousand
years. I think that would make it a lot easier than me leaving my grandson
playing in the dogs bowl to post a lot of verses.
Once again, being the nice person that I am, I remarked to one of your posts
and you will use it to what ever you will. And that would do none of us any
good. I purpose that you post and I post various verses from the
bible.........
Let the people see what it says and comment. That would be of benefit for
all.
Beth
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 28 May 2005 07:02:00 PM
On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:33:31 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone.

You see? Here you go. Insulting me AGAIN! And this,
after you claim that I am the one who insults you.

You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?

I don't care how people see it. I am repeating what it
actually says and Matthew 16:27-28 does not have that
word and clearly says that some of those standing
there, would not die before he returned. So why do you
keep harping on that one word?

Once again, being the nice person that I am...

Huh?!
You tell me I'm lying.
You tell me that I said something I never said.
You called me blind.
You imply that conversing with me is the same as
casting pearls before swine and you are a "nice
person"? I don't think so.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 12:13:42 AM
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1e1i91p2s5p6slqn9gi5ap5dk7j1eoe616@4ax.com...

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:33:31 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone.


You see? Here you go. Insulting me AGAIN! And this,
after you claim that I am the one who insults you.


You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?


I don't care how people see it. I am repeating what it
actually says and Matthew 16:27-28 does not have that
word and clearly says that some of those standing
there, would not die before he returned. So why do you
keep harping on that one word?


Once again, being the nice person that I am...


Huh?!

You tell me I'm lying.

You tell me that I said something I never said.

You called me blind.

You imply that conversing with me is the same as
casting pearls before swine and you are a "nice
person"? I don't think so.

--

Pastor Dave

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

http://tinyurl.com/ce97m

See..........didn't take much to make that "someones" statement true did it.
That is all that is ever the outcome of conversating with you, and I was
nice enough to try, again. In the past that lead to no good for anyone, I
like doing good Dave, but you can't see any one as good except for you, can
you?
Do you know what that does to people? My mother is the same way, always
right, always judging others. Now my other brother has turned away from her,
he also turned away from God completely, that brings deep sorrow. :(
I did not use the word SWINE in that statement, as per written. In the
hopes I was casting pearls to a person who was going to be nice back for a
change. I know that you only bate and that saddens me, because ya know what
Dave, I am a nice person, I do a lot for people, I help, I open my heart or
my wallet and I listen, I care and I pray, I am tired in mind and spirit and
I don't mind telling you that I have to be one of the very FEW people that
still believe and hope for people like you, in like you, I mean people that
will not change seemingly and be all that God would want them to be, I am
not perfected yet, I make big mistakes too. I genuinely care and I always
think, Lord none are totally lost, there is no one that you can't reach.
Then people come along with the attitude that you have, that what you see is
the correct way, without considering the majority, the truth of what God's
word says. That just maybe the bottom line regardless of translation is what
he said the most important command is, to love.
Yes, in many areas it is debated, because we are unsure of the translations.
there are lots of questions. Sometimes, hours of study leave my mind sore
and wondering , but never Dave, never does it leave me not praying and
caring for others, nor trying to get them to realize that God is all in all,
never do I question my Faith in Him, and never do I question Him, because I
Know Him. And I can question the written words, not the meanings for God
knows them, I do know that God forgives my ignorance of them, OUR ignorance
of them, because even the best of the best that I have had personal
conversations with can't agree. So darn it, I am a nice person, because many
wouldn't talk to you, because you put them off, because you go the opposite
in God's word from the majority of people trying to make the utmost best out
of it and because your just mean most of the time.
You don't believe Christs' promises in His word, and I am very sad for you.
Because it is literal and it is HOPE in the unseen things that are yet to be
for us, because I sure could use some of that Peace, sitting in one of those
many mansions, after I see Him come with power and great Glory here to fetch
me. Little ol' me. AKA, the person that just tries to make it, One Day At A
Time.........Good night, and many prayers for you........
Beth------the weary, signing off..............
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 11:20:21 AM
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:13:42 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1e1i91p2s5p6slqn9gi5ap5dk7j1eoe616@4ax.com...

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:33:31 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone.


You see? Here you go. Insulting me AGAIN! And this,
after you claim that I am the one who insults you.


You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?


I don't care how people see it. I am repeating what it
actually says and Matthew 16:27-28 does not have that
word and clearly says that some of those standing
there, would not die before he returned. So why do you
keep harping on that one word?


Once again, being the nice person that I am...


Huh?!

You tell me I'm lying.

You tell me that I said something I never said.

You called me blind.

You imply that conversing with me is the same as
casting pearls before swine and you are a "nice
person"? I don't think so.



See..........didn't take much to make that "someones" statement true did it.
That is all that is ever the outcome of conversating with you, and I was
nice enough to try, again. In the past that lead to no good for anyone, I
like doing good Dave, but you can't see any one as good except for you, can
you?

You're a hypocrite and a liar. YOU INSULTED ME A
NUMBER OF TIMES in the past few messages and
now you wish to claim that I am the bad guy?

Do you know what that does to people? My mother is the same way, always
right, always judging others. Now my other brother has turned away from her,
he also turned away from God completely, that brings deep sorrow. :(

And now you imply more bad things about me.

I did not use the word SWINE in that statement, as per written. In the
hopes I was casting pearls to a person who was going to be nice back for a
change. I know that you only bate and that saddens me,

That's not true. When you say that you're reminded of
casting pearls, the ONLY way someone is going to take
that, is the way the Bible says it, because that's
where you took it from.

because ya know what
Dave, I am a nice person, I do a lot for people, I help, I open my heart or
my wallet and I listen, I care and I pray, I am tired in mind and spirit and
I don't mind telling you that I have to be one of the very FEW people that
still believe and hope for people like you, in like you, I mean people that
will not change seemingly and be all that God would want them to be, I am
not perfected yet, I make big mistakes too. I genuinely care and I always
think, Lord none are totally lost, there is no one that you can't reach.

Now you tell us what a wonderful person you are, yet
you have been rude and insulting to me, even though I
have made the effort to have a civil conversation with
you. Let's face it, this is your way of dodging having
to deal with the issues. You constantly tell me I'm
preaching falsehoods and seem to have plenty of time
to do that and then, when asked to back up your
accusations Scripturally and discuss them, you say
that you don't have the time.

Then people come along with the attitude that you have, that what you see is
the correct way, without considering the majority, the truth of what God's
word says. That just maybe the bottom line regardless of translation is what
he said the most important command is, to love.

So now no one is entitled to their belief, unless it
agrees with majority opinion. You want me to bow
to majority opinion.

Yes, in many areas it is debated, because we are unsure of the translations.
there are lots of questions. Sometimes, hours of study leave my mind sore
and wondering , but never Dave, never does it leave me not praying and
caring for others, nor trying to get them to realize that God is all in all,
never do I question my Faith in Him, and never do I question Him, because I
Know Him.

Are you implying that I do?

And I can question the written words, not the meanings for God
knows them, I do know that God forgives my ignorance of them, OUR ignorance
of them, because even the best of the best that I have had personal
conversations with can't agree.

Yet you claim that what you believe is right. That's
hypocritical to the statement you just made.

So darn it, I am a nice person, because many
wouldn't talk to you, because you put them off, because you go the opposite
in God's word from the majority of people trying to make the utmost best out
of it and because your just mean most of the time.

You spent your time in this message and others,
insulting me, after I tried to build a bridge and I'm
mean to you?
The funny part is, that YOU claimed to be trying
to build a bridge, yet you kept insulting me.

You don't believe Christs' promises in His word, and I am very sad for you.

And now you insult me AGAIN! Now you claim that I
don't believe what Jesus said. The fact is, I do. He
said He would return before all of the Apostles died
and I believe He did.

Because it is literal and it is HOPE in the unseen things that are yet to be
for us, because I sure could use some of that Peace, sitting in one of those
many mansions, after I see Him come with power and great Glory here to fetch
me. Little ol' me. AKA, the person that just tries to make it, One Day At A
Time.........Good night, and many prayers for you........
Beth------the weary, signing off..............

So you want to drag God down here to live with you.
heaven isn't good enough for you.
Try being honest about what you have been doing.
That would be a good start to having a conversation.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 11:42:04 AM
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ebqj911kruejjgu91u5amujs0rr980dqoi@4ax.com...

On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:13:42 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:


"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1e1i91p2s5p6slqn9gi5ap5dk7j1eoe616@4ax.com...

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:33:31 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone.


You see? Here you go. Insulting me AGAIN! And this,
after you claim that I am the one who insults you.


You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know
that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?


I don't care how people see it. I am repeating what it
actually says and Matthew 16:27-28 does not have that
word and clearly says that some of those standing
there, would not die before he returned. So why do you
keep harping on that one word?


Once again, being the nice person that I am...


Huh?!

You tell me I'm lying.

You tell me that I said something I never said.

You called me blind.

You imply that conversing with me is the same as
casting pearls before swine and you are a "nice
person"? I don't think so.



See..........didn't take much to make that "someones" statement true did
it.
That is all that is ever the outcome of conversating with you, and I was
nice enough to try, again. In the past that lead to no good for anyone, I
like doing good Dave, but you can't see any one as good except for you,
can
you?


You're a hypocrite and a liar. YOU INSULTED ME A
NUMBER OF TIMES in the past few messages and
now you wish to claim that I am the bad guy?


Do you know what that does to people? My mother is the same way, always
right, always judging others. Now my other brother has turned away from
her,
he also turned away from God completely, that brings deep sorrow. :(


And now you imply more bad things about me.


I did not use the word SWINE in that statement, as per written. In the
hopes I was casting pearls to a person who was going to be nice back for a
change. I know that you only bate and that saddens me,


That's not true. When you say that you're reminded of
casting pearls, the ONLY way someone is going to take
that, is the way the Bible says it, because that's
where you took it from.


because ya know what
Dave, I am a nice person, I do a lot for people, I help, I open my heart
or
my wallet and I listen, I care and I pray, I am tired in mind and spirit
and
I don't mind telling you that I have to be one of the very FEW people that
still believe and hope for people like you, in like you, I mean people
that
will not change seemingly and be all that God would want them to be, I am
not perfected yet, I make big mistakes too. I genuinely care and I always
think, Lord none are totally lost, there is no one that you can't reach.


Now you tell us what a wonderful person you are, yet
you have been rude and insulting to me, even though I
have made the effort to have a civil conversation with
you. Let's face it, this is your way of dodging having
to deal with the issues. You constantly tell me I'm
preaching falsehoods and seem to have plenty of time
to do that and then, when asked to back up your
accusations Scripturally and discuss them, you say
that you don't have the time.


Then people come along with the attitude that you have, that what you see
is
the correct way, without considering the majority, the truth of what God's
word says. That just maybe the bottom line regardless of translation is
what
he said the most important command is, to love.


So now no one is entitled to their belief, unless it
agrees with majority opinion. You want me to bow
to majority opinion.


Yes, in many areas it is debated, because we are unsure of the
translations.
there are lots of questions. Sometimes, hours of study leave my mind sore
and wondering , but never Dave, never does it leave me not praying and
caring for others, nor trying to get them to realize that God is all in
all,
never do I question my Faith in Him, and never do I question Him, because
I
Know Him.


Are you implying that I do?


And I can question the written words, not the meanings for God
knows them, I do know that God forgives my ignorance of them, OUR
ignorance
of them, because even the best of the best that I have had personal
conversations with can't agree.


Yet you claim that what you believe is right. That's
hypocritical to the statement you just made.


So darn it, I am a nice person, because many
wouldn't talk to you, because you put them off, because you go the
opposite
in God's word from the majority of people trying to make the utmost best
out
of it and because your just mean most of the time.


You spent your time in this message and others,
insulting me, after I tried to build a bridge and I'm
mean to you?

The funny part is, that YOU claimed to be trying
to build a bridge, yet you kept insulting me.


You don't believe Christs' promises in His word, and I am very sad for
you.


And now you insult me AGAIN! Now you claim that I
don't believe what Jesus said. The fact is, I do. He
said He would return before all of the Apostles died
and I believe He did.


Because it is literal and it is HOPE in the unseen things that are yet to
be
for us, because I sure could use some of that Peace, sitting in one of
those
many mansions, after I see Him come with power and great Glory here to
fetch
me. Little ol' me. AKA, the person that just tries to make it, One Day At
A
Time.........Good night, and many prayers for you........
Beth------the weary, signing off..............


So you want to drag God down here to live with you.
heaven isn't good enough for you.

Try being honest about what you have been doing.
That would be a good start to having a conversation.

--

Pastor Dave

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

http://tinyurl.com/ce97m

I agree that I was rude to you and I apologize. What can one say when they
make a mistake :'( So many things in the world bring sorrow to those that
have a heart, ya know Dave? I am sorry for being rude to you, just that I
can't believe many things that people do, not referring to the newsgroups,
just my life, and I am sorry that I took it out on you.........May God grant
us both peace and serenity Amen.
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 01:43:10 PM
On Sun, 29 May 2005 11:42:04 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

I agree that I was rude to you and I apologize.

Good enough.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.


User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 11:58:24 AM
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ebqj911kruejjgu91u5amujs0rr980dqoi@4ax.com...

On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:13:42 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:


"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1e1i91p2s5p6slqn9gi5ap5dk7j1eoe616@4ax.com...

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:33:31 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Dave,
I was just reminded about casting pearls from someone.


You see? Here you go. Insulting me AGAIN! And this,
after you claim that I am the one who insults you.


You know about
Revelation, you know what the Prophets themselves say, you also know
that
Matthew and many other verses have many translations, as in generation,
scholars see them in many differing ways. How then can we in our own
ignorance even begin to do it justice?


I don't care how people see it. I am repeating what it
actually says and Matthew 16:27-28 does not have that
word and clearly says that some of those standing
there, would not die before he returned. So why do you
keep harping on that one word?


Once again, being the nice person that I am...


Huh?!

You tell me I'm lying.

You tell me that I said something I never said.

You called me blind.

You imply that conversing with me is the same as
casting pearls before swine and you are a "nice
person"? I don't think so.



See..........didn't take much to make that "someones" statement true did
it.
That is all that is ever the outcome of conversating with you, and I was
nice enough to try, again. In the past that lead to no good for anyone, I
like doing good Dave, but you can't see any one as good except for you,
can
you?


You're a hypocrite and a liar. YOU INSULTED ME A
NUMBER OF TIMES in the past few messages and
now you wish to claim that I am the bad guy?

Dave, every time anyone tries to have a civil conversation with you, you're
the first one to start hurling accusations and insults. People get fed up,
as did Jesus in His confrontations with the Saducees, Pharisees, and
Herodians. You should expect to get some of your own back if that's the tact
you intend to take.

Do you know what that does to people? My mother is the same way, always
right, always judging others. Now my other brother has turned away from
her,
he also turned away from God completely, that brings deep sorrow. :(


And now you imply more bad things about me.


I did not use the word SWINE in that statement, as per written. In the
hopes I was casting pearls to a person who was going to be nice back for a
change. I know that you only bate and that saddens me,


That's not true. When you say that you're reminded of
casting pearls, the ONLY way someone is going to take
that, is the way the Bible says it, because that's
where you took it from.


because ya know what
Dave, I am a nice person, I do a lot for people, I help, I open my heart
or
my wallet and I listen, I care and I pray, I am tired in mind and spirit
and
I don't mind telling you that I have to be one of the very FEW people that
still believe and hope for people like you, in like you, I mean people
that
will not change seemingly and be all that God would want them to be, I am
not perfected yet, I make big mistakes too. I genuinely care and I always
think, Lord none are totally lost, there is no one that you can't reach.


Now you tell us what a wonderful person you are, yet
you have been rude and insulting to me, even though I
have made the effort to have a civil conversation with
you. Let's face it, this is your way of dodging having
to deal with the issues. You constantly tell me I'm
preaching falsehoods and seem to have plenty of time
to do that and then, when asked to back up your
accusations Scripturally and discuss them, you say
that you don't have the time.

Again, go back and do a Google search on the words "Pastor Dave" and see
what comes up. There's the witness to the truth.

Then people come along with the attitude that you have, that what you see
is
the correct way, without considering the majority, the truth of what God's
word says. That just maybe the bottom line regardless of translation is
what
he said the most important command is, to love.


So now no one is entitled to their belief, unless it
agrees with majority opinion. You want me to bow
to majority opinion.


Yes, in many areas it is debated, because we are unsure of the
translations.
there are lots of questions. Sometimes, hours of study leave my mind sore
and wondering , but never Dave, never does it leave me not praying and
caring for others, nor trying to get them to realize that God is all in
all,
never do I question my Faith in Him, and never do I question Him, because
I
Know Him.


Are you implying that I do?


And I can question the written words, not the meanings for God
knows them, I do know that God forgives my ignorance of them, OUR
ignorance
of them, because even the best of the best that I have had personal
conversations with can't agree.


Yet you claim that what you believe is right. That's
hypocritical to the statement you just made.


So darn it, I am a nice person, because many
wouldn't talk to you, because you put them off, because you go the
opposite
in God's word from the majority of people trying to make the utmost best
out
of it and because your just mean most of the time.


You spent your time in this message and others,
insulting me, after I tried to build a bridge and I'm
mean to you?

The funny part is, that YOU claimed to be trying
to build a bridge, yet you kept insulting me.


You don't believe Christs' promises in His word, and I am very sad for
you.


And now you insult me AGAIN! Now you claim that I
don't believe what Jesus said. The fact is, I do. He
said He would return before all of the Apostles died
and I believe He did.


Because it is literal and it is HOPE in the unseen things that are yet to
be
for us, because I sure could use some of that Peace, sitting in one of
those
many mansions, after I see Him come with power and great Glory here to
fetch
me. Little ol' me. AKA, the person that just tries to make it, One Day At
A
Time.........Good night, and many prayers for you........
Beth------the weary, signing off..............


So you want to drag God down here to live with you.
heaven isn't good enough for you.

Try being honest about what you have been doing.
That would be a good start to having a conversation.

--

Pastor Dave

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

http://tinyurl.com/ce97m

.

User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 12:01:40 PM
So here you are saying that you practice Preterism?
You said: The fact is, I do. He
said He would return before all of the Apostles died
and I believe He did.
Well in one way He did return Dave, He came before He returned to heaven to
be with His Father. People saw Him after the stone was rolled away, many
beliefs discount this, I read that it is so, and I believe it.
I do not believe that is all of it Dave, because the bible says other wise,
there will be an end to this mean ol' world as the prophet told in
Revelation. That is My believe, I was taught in seminary that Preterism was
built on false hermenutics, and that is what I believe. I have seen you many
times, call people bad names, insult them for their beliefs, you can't deny
this. If that is what you believe then that is okay with me, I am not going
to do like my mother does and sit in judgement of you, or try to force feed
you something you dont' believe or beat you up with the bible, because I
have no right to, except where the bible says for me not to be unequally
yoked. I believe in life that is not to be married to a believer that feels
different (or not at all) to your faith, and not to be friends with people
that feel different than you or not love God at all. I do know this is a ng,
and like I said I let my life and my heart spill into our converstation and
I have appologized for it. All I can ask is that you show mercy in that, and
say I forgive you. I do wish you nothing but blessings and His peace, truly.
Why didn't you say what you believe when I asked you in the other thread, I
will look to see if you did. I do not understand your views, I have not
personally known people that believe as you do, I have not deeply studied
other views Dave, I admit that too, I was to busy learning all that I could
about my beliefs. I try to remain balanced and loving to all people because
that is what Christ taught us to do. And I think I am a nice person, one
that gets abused much because of it, but! it will not deter me no matter who
in my life uses me or abuses me for what they can get. Because for both of
us? God is all in all. Amen ?
Beth
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 02:02:11 PM
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:40 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
If I seem to come off mean in this post, it is not my
intention and I will apologize up front. I am simply
attempting to be honest and direct with you.

So here you are saying that you practice Preterism?

I do not accept any labels, except two.
1) Christian
2) Pastor
I simply believe what the Bible says.

Well in one way He did return Dave, He came before
He returned to heaven to be with His Father.

To return means to have been here and then to come
back. In order to say that He did return and then will
again, which is what you said, you must show that this
future return of His, that you believe in, would be His
third physical appearance on Earth. Referencing His
first appearance, does not note a "return" and is
therefore not satisfactory in resolving your claim
with Scripture.

People saw Him after the stone was rolled away, many
beliefs discount this, I read that it is so, and I believe it.

As do I. That however, has nothing to do with
the topic at hand, as I pointed out above.

I do not believe that is all of it Dave, because the bible
says other wise,

I didn't say that was all of it. I have clearly stated
many times that I believe He rose, and ascended to
Heaven. Why do you keep making false claims about
what I have said?
The question here, is whether or not He returned before
all of the Apostles died, which is what He said He
would do.
As for it still being future, that is a claim by you.
Claims do not equal proof and the only thing that
you can say about the bible writings and the future,
is that what they spoke of, was future TO THEM,
at the time of the writing.
I.e., If Jesus were to return tomorrow, would you hold
up those passages and tell Him that he can't really be
here, because the Bible says it is in the future? Of
course not. So blindly applying (figure of speech)
any passage you want to the future, is not a logical
approach. They have a time limit. Until He returns.
The question is, has that happened yet? You say no,
because you take many passages literally, including
those found in Revelation. Yet, when I point out that
there are many passages in Revelation you
"spiritualize" and how often you leave literalism,
you don't respond. Why not?
For example, you believe that the seven churches in
Revelation are actually church ages.
How is that a LITERAL APPROACH to a text that tells
John to send the book to the seven churches and says
that they are in Asia?
And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when those very
churches are known to have existed in the 1st century?
And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when you claimed that
WE are the church of Laodicea, when Paul mentions that
very church, in Colossians, as a REAL place?

there will be an end to this mean ol' world as the prophet
told in Revelation. That is My believe, I was taught in
seminary that Preterism was built on false hermenutics,
and that is what I believe.

And I was taught that the seven churches are church
ages. Guess what? That doesn't pan out, when
examining the New Testament texts. So that is not a
valid reason.
You should have examined it for yourself, instead of
taking someone else's word for it. I'm not trying to
be mean, don't misunderstand me, but you have just
proved my point. End timers do not get their beliefs
from the Bible, but rather, from people. You just
admitted that when you said (to paraphrase)...
"I was taught that... I believe that"

I have not deeply studied other views Dave,
I admit that too,

Then don't you agree that it is hypocrisy to criticize
what you have not studied?
The fact is, someone told you that Preterism is false
and by your own admission, you just believe that,
without examining it.
Tell me Beth, how is that "seeking the truth
of God's word"? Please explain that to me.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
User: "alexiastation"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 04:06:43 PM
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4a3k91hb1mavkqc4o34pgm19ikdfkl8p5e@4ax.com...

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:40 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:


If I seem to come off mean in this post, it is not my
intention and I will apologize up front. I am simply
attempting to be honest and direct with you.


So here you are saying that you practice Preterism?


I do not accept any labels, except two.

1) Christian
2) Pastor

I simply believe what the Bible says.


Well in one way He did return Dave, He came before
He returned to heaven to be with His Father.


To return means to have been here and then to come
back. In order to say that He did return and then will
again, which is what you said, you must show that this
future return of His, that you believe in, would be His
third physical appearance on Earth. Referencing His
first appearance, does not note a "return" and is
therefore not satisfactory in resolving your claim
with Scripture.


People saw Him after the stone was rolled away, many
beliefs discount this, I read that it is so, and I believe it.


As do I. That however, has nothing to do with
the topic at hand, as I pointed out above.


I do not believe that is all of it Dave, because the bible
says other wise,


I didn't say that was all of it. I have clearly stated
many times that I believe He rose, and ascended to
Heaven. Why do you keep making false claims about
what I have said?

The question here, is whether or not He returned before
all of the Apostles died, which is what He said He
would do.

As for it still being future, that is a claim by you.
Claims do not equal proof and the only thing that
you can say about the bible writings and the future,
is that what they spoke of, was future TO THEM,
at the time of the writing.

I.e., If Jesus were to return tomorrow, would you hold
up those passages and tell Him that he can't really be
here, because the Bible says it is in the future? Of
course not. So blindly applying (figure of speech)
any passage you want to the future, is not a logical
approach. They have a time limit. Until He returns.

The question is, has that happened yet? You say no,
because you take many passages literally, including
those found in Revelation. Yet, when I point out that
there are many passages in Revelation you
"spiritualize" and how often you leave literalism,
you don't respond. Why not?

For example, you believe that the seven churches in
Revelation are actually church ages.

How is that a LITERAL APPROACH to a text that tells
John to send the book to the seven churches and says
that they are in Asia?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when those very
churches are known to have existed in the 1st century?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when you claimed that
WE are the church of Laodicea, when Paul mentions that
very church, in Colossians, as a REAL place?


there will be an end to this mean ol' world as the prophet
told in Revelation. That is My believe, I was taught in
seminary that Preterism was built on false hermenutics,
and that is what I believe.


And I was taught that the seven churches are church
ages. Guess what? That doesn't pan out, when
examining the New Testament texts. So that is not a
valid reason.

You should have examined it for yourself, instead of
taking someone else's word for it. I'm not trying to
be mean, don't misunderstand me, but you have just
proved my point. End timers do not get their beliefs
from the Bible, but rather, from people. You just
admitted that when you said (to paraphrase)...

"I was taught that... I believe that"


I have not deeply studied other views Dave,
I admit that too,


Then don't you agree that it is hypocrisy to criticize
what you have not studied?

The fact is, someone told you that Preterism is false
and by your own admission, you just believe that,
without examining it.

Tell me Beth, how is that "seeking the truth
of God's word"? Please explain that to me.

--

Pastor Dave

Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html

http://tinyurl.com/ce97m

Dave,
Because we have the bible, because I believe He will return, you can take
it's words and say that it meant something that already happened, and I can
take those same words and say that it hasn't happened. Where then may I ask,
do you get hope? Do you think then that this world will always and always go
on without and end? What about the NEW Heaven and the NEW Earth spoken off?
Is this the new earth, surely NOT. For in the new earth the lion will lay
with the lamb, I don't know any lions that won't eat lambs on this planet.
Similar question that you posed to me, how do you justify all the problems
of not taking some verses as literal, when they can not be proven in history
to date?
My mind doesn't work like most people and for that I am sorry, because when
I hit on a topic I can't seem to focus on small areas of it, that is just
how I am, I see things in a grand scale. That is why my studies can get me
off onto another subject so easily. I can't change your mind about what you
feel is your faith and you can't change my mind about what I feel is my
faith. I believe it because I have been taught yes, I chose that area
because it is the best fit for me and it has been interpreted that way, yes,
because I can only take on so much at one time, and because admittedly I
don't want to see it any other way, because the majority of people see it
the way I see it, teach it that way. Yes, because that is how it is for you,
for everyone. Do you go and see sermons that preach what I believe? Probably
not. Do Catholics attend John Hagee services, probably not. It is that way
for all of us, studying the word and living for Christ, is a deeply personal
issue to the individual.
You kept asking about the Matthew 24 verse and I have given my answer. We
can't agree on that verse because no one does, it is in interpretation then
isn't it. That is all the bible is for all of us don't you think?
I do believe that He will come and that He will return to this earth, as I
posted in Revelation 1-then on in Revelation to reign 1000 years. You do not
answer to those things Dave, so how can I rebuttal? See you have not
explained to me, when he reigned already for one thousand years, and what
about the end time events that it clearly states will happen that have not
happened. Do you think then say for instance that the mark of the beast is
not a literal mark? Why does it say we WAIT for judgment if it already
happened. What about Luke speak of the Great Day of the Lord, what about the
parting of the clouds and the coming again as He left. You have not
addressed those.
And Dave, I don't have all the answers nor do I pretend to, I am simply a
servant like anyone else. I do not believe in Preterism-which even if you do
not wear that term is what you are saying. I respect your views for you, and
expect that you respect my views for me.
Beth
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 06:08:30 PM
On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:43 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4a3k91hb1mavkqc4o34pgm19ikdfkl8p5e@4ax.com...

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:40 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:


If I seem to come off mean in this post, it is not my
intention and I will apologize up front. I am simply
attempting to be honest and direct with you.


So here you are saying that you practice Preterism?


I do not accept any labels, except two.

1) Christian
2) Pastor

I simply believe what the Bible says.


Well in one way He did return Dave, He came before
He returned to heaven to be with His Father.


To return means to have been here and then to come
back. In order to say that He did return and then will
again, which is what you said, you must show that this
future return of His, that you believe in, would be His
third physical appearance on Earth. Referencing His
first appearance, does not note a "return" and is
therefore not satisfactory in resolving your claim
with Scripture.


People saw Him after the stone was rolled away, many
beliefs discount this, I read that it is so, and I believe it.


As do I. That however, has nothing to do with
the topic at hand, as I pointed out above.


I do not believe that is all of it Dave, because the bible
says other wise,


I didn't say that was all of it. I have clearly stated
many times that I believe He rose, and ascended to
Heaven. Why do you keep making false claims about
what I have said?

The question here, is whether or not He returned before
all of the Apostles died, which is what He said He
would do.

As for it still being future, that is a claim by you.
Claims do not equal proof and the only thing that
you can say about the bible writings and the future,
is that what they spoke of, was future TO THEM,
at the time of the writing.

I.e., If Jesus were to return tomorrow, would you hold
up those passages and tell Him that he can't really be
here, because the Bible says it is in the future? Of
course not. So blindly applying (figure of speech)
any passage you want to the future, is not a logical
approach. They have a time limit. Until He returns.

The question is, has that happened yet? You say no,
because you take many passages literally, including
those found in Revelation. Yet, when I point out that
there are many passages in Revelation you
"spiritualize" and how often you leave literalism,
you don't respond. Why not?

For example, you believe that the seven churches in
Revelation are actually church ages.

How is that a LITERAL APPROACH to a text that tells
John to send the book to the seven churches and says
that they are in Asia?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when those very
churches are known to have existed in the 1st century?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when you claimed that
WE are the church of Laodicea, when Paul mentions that
very church, in Colossians, as a REAL place?


there will be an end to this mean ol' world as the prophet
told in Revelation. That is My believe, I was taught in
seminary that Preterism was built on false hermenutics,
and that is what I believe.


And I was taught that the seven churches are church
ages. Guess what? That doesn't pan out, when
examining the New Testament texts. So that is not a
valid reason.

You should have examined it for yourself, instead of
taking someone else's word for it. I'm not trying to
be mean, don't misunderstand me, but you have just
proved my point. End timers do not get their beliefs
from the Bible, but rather, from people. You just
admitted that when you said (to paraphrase)...

"I was taught that... I believe that"


I have not deeply studied other views Dave,
I admit that too,


Then don't you agree that it is hypocrisy to criticize
what you have not studied?

The fact is, someone told you that Preterism is false
and by your own admission, you just believe that,
without examining it.

Tell me Beth, how is that "seeking the truth
of God's word"? Please explain that to me.



Dave,
Because we have the bible, because I believe He will
return, you can take it's words and say that it meant
something that already happened, and I can take
those same words and say that it hasn't happened.

Let it be noted, that you have, once again, ignored
the points I have made. This is getting old.
The fact is, I take its words as something that was
future to the writer and in the past for us.
What you people keep trying to do, is the following
two things...
1) You claim that I am saying that the writers wrote
about it as a past event to them. I did not say that.
2) You claim it is in the future, because the writer
speaks about it being in the future. the reality is,
that it was in the future TO THEM. That does not
speak to whether or not it is in the future TO US.
If a writer said that World War I is going to happen
and wrote it in 1920, does that mean that in 2005 it
has not happened yet? Of course not!
And if Jesus returned tomorrow, would you hold up the
passages that you quote and tell Him He couldn't really
be here, because Paul, for example, said it's in the
future? Of course not! Thus, a writing about future
events TO THE WRITER has a time frame.
Now as for what Jesus actually said...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall COME in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall REWARD EVERY
MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
Note: Jesus is speaking of His return and the Judgment.
We know this by looking at Revelation 22:12, which uses
THE SAME WORDING.
"And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my REWARD is with me,
to give EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE."
- Revelation 22:12
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note: Some of those "STANDING HERE" would not die
before it happened. He did not say, "this Jewish
race", nor did He say, "this nation". He said, "SOME
STANDING HERE" WOULD NOT DIE before He returned
Now tell us Beth, how does that mean it is still
in the future TO US???

Where then may I ask, do you get hope?

And this is what it boils down to. If He has already
returned, then YOU see no hope and therefore,
MUST claim it is still in the future.
Your idea of hope, is to avoid the dirt nap. Face it
Beth, you don't want to die. YOU'RE AFRAID TO DIE!
That's why you keep making the claim that He will come
to get YOU when He returns. YOUR hope is that you
will never have to face PHYSICAL DEATH.
Another thing that troubles you, is that you cannot
bear to let go of your life here on Earth. That is why
you insist on Christ returning here and setting up a
place HERE ON EARTH to live. You love this world
too much to let it go and the promise of eternal life
in Heaven in the mansions (not hotels, not a temporary
stay) isn't good enough for you, because you find your
place to be HERE, connected to THIS world..
As for me, I do not have to worry about it. because
the instant I die physically, I will be with Christ.
It is an instant translation into eternal life with
the Lord. And while here on Earth, I partake
of His Kingdom NOW (see below).
And my hope does not rest in hoping that the people
on planet Earth will try to kill everyone off before I
die, so Jesus will come, which is a pretty sick hope,
if you ask me.
Think about it. YOUR hope rests in people dying by
the billions. Mine rests in being with Christ. Whose
hope is closer to what Jesus taught? Well?
You are like the Pharisees, who demanded a literal,
physical kingdom and couldn't see beyond themselves
and their life here and their own petty little
political squabbles.
But what did Jesus say about the Kingdom of God?
How did He respond to them, when they asked THE
VERY SAME QUESTION YOU ARE ASKING?
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Note that the Pharisees wanted to know when the Kingdom
of God would come TO THE EARTH, just as YOU state it
will happen. And like the Pharisees, you keep looking
for this physical kingdom on Earth.
Now what was Jesus' response???
"The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION".
I.e., YOU WON'T SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES! :)
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
They WON'T say, "look here, or look there"! Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU,
AS JESUS SAID!
It is NOT a new literal, physical kingdom set up after
the destruction of heaven and earth. You are making
the same mistake that the Pharisees made, in demanding
a physical kingdom on Earth. Didn't what Jesus told
them teach you anything?! He was not here to set up
a kingdom on Earth. That was NOT His mission.
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my
kingdom were of this world, then would my servants
fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
now is my kingdom not from hence." - John 18:36
Yet you want to bring Jesus down off His throne and
seat Him here on Earth, to please your own desires.
How can the Kingdom of God NOT come with observation
and yet, still be physically SEEN?
Of course, the end timers always ask...
"You want us to believe that we have his government
and peace right now?"
To deny that we do, is to deny that God gives us grace
and peace, is it not?
But it has nothing to do with what I believe. Let see
what the Bible says about it...
"For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God" - Ephesians 2:8-9
"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Corinthians 1:2
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
- Philippians 4:7
It seems that Paul got the picture. :)

Do you think then that this world will always
and always go on without and end?

Why not ask Paul?
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus
throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."
- Ephesians 4:21
Now before you try to dance around that, remember
YOUR claim of LITERALISM in the Bible.

What about the NEW Heaven and the NEW Earth
spoken of?

It is YOUR BELIEF that it is literal and physical. Yet
you spiritualize away the seven churches in Revelation
(the very same book) and call them, "church ages", so
you are contradicting yourself.
And what did Jesus say about the Kingdom of God?
See quote of Luke 17:20-21 above.
And again I ask, how can the Kingdom of God NOT
come with observation and yet, still be physically
SEEN? Especially since YOU claim it WILL be seen?
It seems that your belief is in direct contradiction
to what Jesus taught.

Is this the new earth, surely NOT. For in the new earth
the lion will lay with the lamb, I don't know any lions that
won't eat lambs on this planet.

Actually, there was one. His name was "Tyke". But
that is irrelevant. The Scripture is using symbolic
language.

Similar question that you posed to me, how do you justify
all the problems of not taking some verses as literal, when
they can not be proven in history to date?

I am not the one claiming to take all of the verses
literally. YOU ARE! Therefore, I have no problem to
deal with. you are simply trying to avoid answering to
the fact that you claim literalism and then
spiritualize away verses.
In other words, I am not the one who makes that claim
and then contradicts myself, by 'spiritualizing" the
seven churches in revelation and claiming they are
not literal. YOU ARE!
I do have a question for you though, regarding Isaiah.
Since you use a quote from him, regarding the
supposedly literal and physical "new heaven and
new earth", tell me, how do you reconcile the following
contradiction?...
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor
an old man that hath not filled his days: for THE CHILD
SHALL DIE A HUNDRED YEARS OLD; but the sinner
being a hundred years old shall be accursed."
- Isaiah 65:20
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and
THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for
the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4
So tell me Beth, since the passages about the new
heaven and the new earth are literal and physical and
both quotes above speak about this new heaven and
new earth, which one is right? Will the child die at
100 years old? Or will there be no more death?
I also have another question...
Since according to you, Isaiah and Revelation are
speaking of a literal and physical new heaven and
earth and the judgment happens before it appears and
the only people on this new earth are the righteous,
who trusted God, who are the sinners in the quote of
Isaiah, who will be accursed at 100 years old?
Also, who are the sinners outside the gate of the
New Jerusalem, which appears AFTER the new
heaven and the new earth appear and AFTER
death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire?...
Revelation 22:14-15
14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that
they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter
in through the gates into the city.
15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and
whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Also tell me please, if there is no more death, why
do we need a literal and physical tree to eat from,
to stay alive?
The fact is, that to a first century Jew back then,
the temple is where heaven and earth met. To
destroy the temple, was to destroy heaven and
earth, which is why it was written that the heavens
would roll away as a scroll. God would turn His back
on Jerusalem and it would be destroyed and it was
destroyed. It simply meant the Old Covenant seat
of God, which was in the temple, which is where,
to a Jew, God was literally enthroned. And the
temple was burned, which signifies the "fervent
heat" peter spoke of and the entry of the "new earth".
We should also bear in mind, that the New Covenant
was in place, while the Old Covenant system still stood
physically. This is the overspreading of abominations
(plural) that Daniel spoke of (along with other stuff).
Sacrifices that continued and spit in God's face, since
they were saying that Jesus' sacrifice was worthless,
by continuing the Old Covenant system.
And btw, while you await a third temple, you are saying
that man has the ability to overpower what God
destroyed.
The writer of Hebrews, discussing the new said...
"And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing
of those things that are shaken, as of things that are
made, that those things which cannot be shaken may
remain." - Hebrews 12:27
Now note very carefully, that what "REMAINS",
by definition had to already be here, in order to
"REMAIN". Otherwise, he would have said,
"that a new thing may be made and appear".
If we read that passage carefully, we will note that
the writer of Hebrews talks about the things being
removed as being "things that are made". In other
words, physical things, which btw, is what the temple
complex was.
He also notes that the things which cannot be shaken
will remain. Not that they will "appear". No. That
they will "remain".
So you see, to say that this represents the old Earth
being completely removed and a brand new planet Earth
being set up, is to deny the wording of Hebrews.
We have to be very careful when we read Scripture,
because sometimes, just one word can change the way
a verse reads, as it does here. End timers today view
that passage as part of the prophecy of a physical and
literal new earth, but the writer clearly says that
something will be left remaining, after the shaking.
Not created. No, rather, it will "remain", which means
it was here before the shaking started, in order to be
able to "remain". That is not "an interpretation".
That is what it clearly says and it is simple logic.
Now tell me Beth, what is there that man has made
on Earth, that cannot be shaken away, if indeed
the writer is indeed speaking of a literal shaking
of the planet Earth?
The answer is, "nothing". Therefore, the things that
"remain" are the only things that cannot be shaken
away. The spiritual. The New Covenant. It is the
Old Covenant that is "shaken away'.
So whether you believe it is a literal shaking, or the
destruction of the physical Old Covenant system,
as I do, it is clear that the only thing that could
"remain" after such an event, is that which is
spiritual and it has nothing to do with a physical
and literal new heaven and new earth.
And also note that it is limited to the things that
are made, so that the things that remain can still
be here. Be where? Here on Earth, that must
"remain", so that what is left, can 'remain".
Also note what else the writer of Hebrews said...
"For then must he often have suffered since the
foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the
world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice
of himself." - Hebrews 9:26
It says there, "NOW once in the END OF THE WORLD".
So tell me Beth, who's right? You? Or him?
You see, this is the lesson I try to give you end
timers, when you talk about the world being destroyed.
To take it the way you do, the world ended in the first
century. You cannot deny that, reading the above and
I know you have used the KJV quite a bit.
The fact is, that it is actually two different Greek
words being used, both of which were translated
as the English word, "world". That is a bad
translation though.
The first world, is "kosmos", which does indeed mean
the planet Earth.
The second word, is "aion", which means, "an age".
The end of the planet is not being discussed there.
The same thing applies when you bring up passages
from Revelation, that say "world", or "earth". The
Greek words there, are not "kosmos". It is usually
"ge", which simply means, "soil", or "region". A
specific region is being discussed. That region is
Judea, as Jesus said in Luke 21:20-21, when He
talked about what would happen, just before His return.
Luke 21:20-21
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with
armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judea flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it
depart out; and let not them that are in the countries
enter thereinto.
A better translation of those words in Revelation,
would be, "the land", instead of "the earth". You
see, to a Jew, you were either, "in the land", or
"out of the land" and they were speaking of their
land, not the planet Earth.
Also note that just because something says, "earth",
that does not mean "planet". People often say that
they planted seeds into "the earth" and they are not
saying that they covered the entire planet with seeds.
It seems that only when it comes to the Bible, do the
end timers lose their grasp of language. (:

You kept asking about the Matthew 24 verse
and I have given my answer.

You haven't given an answer. You made a quick claim
and then ran away from it.
Jesus clearly talks about the His return and the
destruction of the temple.
As for a time frame, he said what I noted earlier in
Matthew 16:27-28 and Matthew 24:34.
I would also like you to address the following. Please
read the following parable and ask yourself one
question...
"Who does the lord of the vineyard come back and
execute his wrath upon? Those that killed his son? Or
a generation thousands of years later?
Matthew 21:33-43
33) Hear another parable: There was a certain
householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it
round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a
tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a
far country:
34) And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent
his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive
the fruits of it.
35) And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one,
and killed another, and stoned another.
36) Again, he sent other servants more than the first:
and they did unto them likewise.
37) But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying,
They will reverence my son.
38) But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said
among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill
him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39) And they caught him, and cast him out of the
vineyard, and slew him.
40) When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh,
what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41) They say unto him, He will miserably destroy
*_THOSE_* wicked men, and will let out his vineyard
unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the
fruits in their seasons.
42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the
Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the
same is become the head of the corner: this is the
Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall
be taken from *_YOU_*, and given to a nation bringing
forth the fruits thereof.
Again, who did the lord of the vineyard come back and
destroy?
What greater sin could anyone have committed in
denying the Son, than killing the Son?

We can't agree on that verse because no one does,

That isn't true.

it is in interpretation then isn't it.

No, it isn't. Not when it comes to the time frame. He
said clearly He would be back within that generation.

That is all the bible is for all of us don't you think?

Now you're trying to skate out of answering my points.

And Dave, I don't have all the answers nor do I pretend to,

That is the problem Beth. You DO pretend to.
And when they are challenged, you run away.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.

User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: *** ALEXIASTATION: ARE YOU GOING TO RESPOND??? *** 29 May 2005 09:22:53 PM
On Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:43 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4a3k91hb1mavkqc4o34pgm19ikdfkl8p5e@4ax.com...

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:01:40 -0500, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@hotmail.com> spake thusly:


If I seem to come off mean in this post, it is not my
intention and I will apologize up front. I am simply
attempting to be honest and direct with you.


So here you are saying that you practice Preterism?


I do not accept any labels, except two.

1) Christian
2) Pastor

I simply believe what the Bible says.


Well in one way He did return Dave, He came before
He returned to heaven to be with His Father.


To return means to have been here and then to come
back. In order to say that He did return and then will
again, which is what you said, you must show that this
future return of His, that you believe in, would be His
third physical appearance on Earth. Referencing His
first appearance, does not note a "return" and is
therefore not satisfactory in resolving your claim
with Scripture.


People saw Him after the stone was rolled away, many
beliefs discount this, I read that it is so, and I believe it.


As do I. That however, has nothing to do with
the topic at hand, as I pointed out above.


I do not believe that is all of it Dave, because the bible
says other wise,


I didn't say that was all of it. I have clearly stated
many times that I believe He rose, and ascended to
Heaven. Why do you keep making false claims about
what I have said?

The question here, is whether or not He returned before
all of the Apostles died, which is what He said He
would do.

As for it still being future, that is a claim by you.
Claims do not equal proof and the only thing that
you can say about the bible writings and the future,
is that what they spoke of, was future TO THEM,
at the time of the writing.

I.e., If Jesus were to return tomorrow, would you hold
up those passages and tell Him that he can't really be
here, because the Bible says it is in the future? Of
course not. So blindly applying (figure of speech)
any passage you want to the future, is not a logical
approach. They have a time limit. Until He returns.

The question is, has that happened yet? You say no,
because you take many passages literally, including
those found in Revelation. Yet, when I point out that
there are many passages in Revelation you
"spiritualize" and how often you leave literalism,
you don't respond. Why not?

For example, you believe that the seven churches in
Revelation are actually church ages.

How is that a LITERAL APPROACH to a text that tells
John to send the book to the seven churches and says
that they are in Asia?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when those very
churches are known to have existed in the 1st century?

And how is it a LITERAL APPROACH, when you claimed that
WE are the church of Laodicea, when Paul mentions that
very church, in Colossians, as a REAL place?


there will be an end to this mean ol' world as the prophet
told in Revelation. That is My believe, I was taught in
seminary that Preterism was built on false hermenutics,
and that is what I believe.


And I was taught that the seven churches are church
ages. Guess what? That doesn't pan out, when
examining the New Testament texts. So that is not a
valid reason.

You should have examined it for yourself, instead of
taking someone else's word for it. I'm not trying to
be mean, don't misunderstand me, but you have just
proved my point. End timers do not get their beliefs
from the Bible, but rather, from people. You just
admitted that when you said (to paraphrase)...

"I was taught that... I believe that"


I have not deeply studied other views Dave,
I admit that too,


Then don't you agree that it is hypocrisy to criticize
what you have not studied?

The fact is, someone told you that Preterism is false
and by your own admission, you just believe that,
without examining it.

Tell me Beth, how is that "seeking the truth
of God's word"? Please explain that to me.



Dave,
Because we have the bible, because I believe He will
return, you can take it's words and say that it meant
something that already happened, and I can take
those same words and say that it hasn't happened.

Let it be noted, that you have, once again, ignored
the points I have made. This is getting old.
The fact is, I take its words as something that was
future to the writer and in the past for us.
What you people keep trying to do, is the following
two things...
1) You claim that I am saying that the writers wrote
about it as a past event to them. I did not say that.
2) You claim it is in the future, because the writer
speaks about it being in the future. the reality is,
that it was in the future TO THEM. That does not
speak to whether or not it is in the future TO US.
If a writer said that World War I is going to happen
and wrote it in 1920, does that mean that in 2005 it
has not happened yet? Of course not!
And if Jesus returned tomorrow, would you hold up the
passages that you quote and tell Him He couldn't really
be here, because Paul, for example, said it's in the
future? Of course not! Thus, a writing about future
events TO THE WRITER has a time frame.
Now as for what Jesus actually said...
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall COME in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall REWARD EVERY
MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
Note: Jesus is speaking of His return and the Judgment.
We know this by looking at Revelation 22:12, which uses
THE SAME WORDING.
"And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my REWARD is with me,
to give EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE."
- Revelation 22:12
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note: Some of those "STANDING HERE" would not die
before it happened. He did not say, "this Jewish
race", nor did He say, "this nation". He said, "SOME
STANDING HERE" WOULD NOT DIE before He returned
Now tell us Beth, how does that mean it is still
in the future TO US???

Where then may I ask, do you get hope?

And this is what it boils down to. If He has already
returned, then YOU see no hope and therefore,
MUST claim it is still in the future.
Your idea of hope, is to avoid the dirt nap. Face it
Beth, you don't want to die. YOU'RE AFRAID TO DIE!
That's why you keep making the claim that He will come
to get YOU when He returns. YOUR hope is that you
will never have to face PHYSICAL DEATH.
Another thing that troubles you, is that you cannot
bear to let go of your life here on Earth. That is why
you insist on Christ returning here and setting up a
place HERE ON EARTH to live. You love this world
too much to let it go and the promise of eternal life
in Heaven in the mansions (not hotels, not a temporary
stay) isn't good enough for you, because you find your
place to be HERE, connected to THIS world..
As for me, I do not have to worry about it. because
the instant I die physically, I will be with Christ.
It is an instant translation into eternal life with
the Lord. And while here on Earth, I partake
of His Kingdom NOW (see below).
And my hope does not rest in hoping that the people
on planet Earth will try to kill everyone off before I
die, so Jesus will come, which is a pretty sick hope,
if you ask me.
Think about it. YOUR hope rests in people dying by
the billions. Mine rests in being with Christ. Whose
hope is closer to what Jesus taught? Well?
You are like the Pharisees, who demanded a literal,
physical kingdom and couldn't see beyond themselves
and their life here and their own petty little
political squabbles.
But what did Jesus say about the Kingdom of God?
How did He respond to them, when they asked THE
VERY SAME QUESTION YOU ARE ASKING?
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Note that the Pharisees wanted to know when the Kingdom
of God would come TO THE EARTH, just as YOU state it
will happen. And like the Pharisees, you keep looking
for this physical kingdom on Earth.
Now what was Jesus' response???
"The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION".
I.e., YOU WON'T SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES! :)
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
They WON'T say, "look here, or look there"! Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU,
AS JESUS SAID!
It is NOT a new literal, physical kingdom set up after
the destruction of heaven and earth. You are making
the same mistake that the Pharisees made, in demanding
a physical kingdom on Earth. Didn't what Jesus told
them teach you anything?! He was not here to set up
a kingdom on Earth. That was NOT His mission.
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my
kingdom were of this world, then would my servants
fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but
now is my kingdom not from hence." - John 18:36
Yet you want to bring Jesus down off His throne and
seat Him here on Earth, to please your own desires.
How can the Kingdom of God NOT come with observation
and yet, still be physically SEEN?
Of course, the end timers always ask...
"You want us to believe that we have his government
and peace right now?"
To deny that we do, is to deny that God gives us grace
and peace, is it not?
But it has nothing to do with what I believe. Let see
what the Bible says about it...
"For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God" - Ephesians 2:8-9
"Grace be to you and peace from God our Father,
and from the Lord Jesus Christ." - 2 Corinthians 1:2
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding,
shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."
- Philippians 4:7
It seems that Paul got the picture. :)

Do you think then that this world will always
and always go on without and end?

Why not ask Paul?
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus
throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."
- Ephesians 4:21
Now before you try to dance around that, remember
YOUR claim of LITERALISM in the Bible.

What about the NEW Heaven and the NEW Earth
spoken of?

It is YOUR BELIEF that it is literal and physical. Yet
you spiritualize away the seven churches in Revelation
(the very same book) and call them, "church ages", so
you are contradicting yourself.
And what did Jesus say about the Kingdom of God?
See quote of Luke 17:20-21 above.
And again I ask, how can the Kingdom of God NOT
come with observation and yet, still be physically
SEEN? Especially since YOU claim it WILL be seen?
It seems that your belief is in direct contradiction
to what Jesus taught.

Is this the new earth, surely NOT. For in the new earth
the lion will lay with the lamb, I don't know any lions that
won't eat lambs on this planet.

Actually, there was one. His name was "Tyke". But
that is irrelevant. The Scripture is using symbolic
language.

Similar question that you posed to me, how do you justify
all the problems of not taking some verses as literal, when
they can not be proven in history to date?

I am not the one claiming to take all of the verses
literally. YOU ARE! Therefore, I have no problem to
deal with. you are simply trying to avoid answering to
the fact that you claim literalism and then
spiritualize away verses.
In other words, I am not the one who makes that claim
and then contradicts myself, by 'spiritualizing" the
seven churches in revelation and claiming they are
not literal. YOU ARE!
I do have a question for you though, regarding Isaiah.
Since you use a quote from him, regarding the
supposedly literal and physical "new heaven and
new earth", tell me, how do you reconcile the following
contradiction?...
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor
an old man that hath not filled his days: for THE CHILD
SHALL DIE A HUNDRED YEARS OLD; but the sinner
being a hundred years old shall be accursed."
- Isaiah 65:20
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and
THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for
the former things are passed away." - Revelation 21:4
So tell me Beth, since the passages about the new
heaven and the new earth are literal and physical and
both quotes above speak about this new heaven and
new earth, which one is right? Will the child die at
100 years old? Or will there be no more death?
I also have another question...
Since according to you, Isaiah and Revelation are
speaking