@ CARL & CHUCK: NOW LIBEL = TRUTH ?!?



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Pastor Dave"
Date: 20 Jan 2008 01:57:00 PM
Object: @ CARL & CHUCK: NOW LIBEL = TRUTH ?!?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:38:13 -0800, "Chuck Stamford"
<shell__stamford@cox.net> said the following:

Carl <saints@nettally.com> wrote:

Keep in mind that this Dave Raymond allegedly runs
(or ran) the 1st Century Church of Christ out of his
home somewhere in Florida. At least that's what
he claimed in posts from long ago. Doubtful if his
congregation is above 1. I seem to remember another
false "Reverend/Pastor" who ran his own little alleged
"church" out of his own home with a congregation
consisting of himself and a captive audience made up
of his wife and children. His name is Steve Winter.
Neither Steve nor Dave are true Pastors per scripture
but frauds trying to be the next big cult leader.
Fortunately neither Steve nor Dave have any of
the charisma that attracted poor followers to other
lunatics like Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall
Applewhite. So consider it fortunate at least that
Dave is unable to convince anyone with even a shred
of decency and common sense to follow him.
And let's pray Dave never does.

May God bless,
Carl

In other words, since you attacked me for daring to
question your own personal doctrine, you might as
well go on a whole smear campaign, right?
Let's just note that whenever you mention my name,
all you do is attack me personally, even though you
have no clue what you're talking about and you're
making up these hateful libels as you go!
Now go ahead and try to avoid the subject, by asking;
"Are you saying you didn't/don't run a home church?",
when you know I'm referring to your libelous statements!
And to compare me to folks like them, is simply hateful!
But hey, if YOU say it, it is Christian, right? <chuckle>
Oh and btw, I'm sure God will be happy to hear you
criticize home churches, even though that's how most
Protestant churches started that you see driving down
the road and even though that's all they were in the
New Testament!
"Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Who have for my life laid down their own necks:
unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all
the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the
church that is in their house." - Romans 16:3-5a
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla
salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is
in their house." - 1 Corinthians 16:19
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas,
and the church which is in his house." - Colossians 4:15
"And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellow
soldier, and to the church in thy house." - Philemon 1:2
Of course, I could have had people paying for a lease
for a church building, instead of giving the money away
to the less fortunate and I could have taken a salary,
instead of refusing one. But hey, as long as you get
to ridicule me for having a church set up just like they
were in the New Testament, that's all that matters, right?
The fact is, you got ticked off, as soon as I showed you
that your doctrine doesn't work and now you hate me!
You wish to pretend that I just attacked you for no reason,
but we both know that you fired the first shot and kept
firing, even when I left you alone! That's because you
hate me, plain and simple and no claim to the contrary
is going to wash! You ran from the discussion, hurling
insults behind you as you ran away and then went into
thread after thread, attacking me and you keep on,
like Chuck, saying libelous things about me behind
my back!

Chuck wrote:

We're in luck on this one. People have to be able
to stomach those they follow, which means Dave
is never going to have a following. I think he's
using the whole "Pastor" deal as a tax shelter, myself.
I know that if Dave every had a justified thought it
would die of lonliness, but even he can't have any
great expectation of "wooing" anyone to his banner
calling them names as he does, and he just can't help
himself on that score once anyone has questioned
what he believes.

Given what he believes, surely it must be true that
99.9% of humanity would tend to question him on
his beliefs at some point!

God bless

Chuck

You have no problem libeling me and neither do
the other Dispy's, whose vanity rules their doctrine.
You complain about others, falsely claiming that
they're attacking you, when you admit that you're
just trying to dodge the subject and then you go
on your smear campaign against them!
But hey Chucky... If YOU say it, then it must be
"Christian", right?! <chuckle>
But just so you know, I have never written off a single
thing through the church and I paid for everything out
of my own pocket and gave out every penny taken in
and have never received one dime for my services!
But then again, you already knew that from before,
Chuck and just didn't care, because your mission
was to libel me, because I just showed you how
far off your doctrine is regarding you saying that
Jesus is not lord over anything, yet you claim that
He is Lord over you!
Your doctrine does not work, Chuck and you are
another one who fired the first shot at me and
have not stopped, even though I left you alone
for months! That's because you hate me, while
hypocritically claim you don't and talk about love!
So go ahead Chuck and keep libeling me behind
my back, responding to this guy! Hey, no it is
the "good Christian" thing to do, right?!
--
What part of 'THOU SHALT NOT' don't you understand?
.

User: "Carl"

Title: CARL & CHUCK: TRUTH ! 21 Jan 2008 04:05:16 AM
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,
temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not
a lover of money. (NIV)
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose
children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and
disobedient. Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must
be blameless -- not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to
drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must
be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled,
upright, holy and disciplined. (NIV)
BISHOP
An overseer, elder, or pastor charged with the responsibility of
spiritual leadership in a local church in New Testament times.
Before the church was founded, the Greek word for bishop was used in a
general sense to refer to local gods as those who watched over people
or countries. The word was later applied to men, including those who
held positions as magistrates or other government offices. And
eventually the term was extended to refer to officials in religious
communities with various functions, including those who supervised the
revenues of pagan temples.
The SEPTUAGINT (Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses bishop to
refer to those who exercise power; sometimes it indicates those who
hold positions of authority. It represents a Hebrew term that refers
to those who are overseers or officers (Num 4:16; Neh 9:9).
In the New Testament, Jesus is called the "Overseer of your souls" (1
Peter 2:25). In this passage the word is associated with the term
shepherd. It is also used to identify the leader of a Christian
community or the one who filled the office of overseer. In Acts 20:28
the elders of the church at Ephesus summoned to meet Paul are
identified as overseers. Their responsibility, given by the Holy
Spirit, was "to shepherd the church of God." In Phil 1 bishops are
associated with deacons, and the qualifications are outlined in 1 Tim
3:2-7 and Titus 1:7-9. Included are standards for his personal and
home life, as well as the bishop's relationships with non-believers.
In Acts 20:17,28 and Titus 1:5,7, the terms bishop and elder are used
synonymously. Also the word bishop, or its related words, appears to
be synonymous with the word shepherd, or its equivalents (Acts 20:28;
1 Peter 2:25; 5:2).
In his work, the bishop was to oversee the flock of God, to shepherd
his people, to protect them from enemies, and to teach, exhort, and
encourage. He was to accomplish this primarily by being an example to
his people. He was to do this willingly and with an eager spirit, not
by coercion or for financial gain. To desire a position as bishop, the
apostle Paul declared, was to desire a good work (1 Tim 3:1). Also see
ELDER.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
ELDER
A term used throughout the Bible but designating different ideas at
various times in biblical history. The word may refer to age,
experience, and authority, as well as specific leadership roles.
In ancient times authority was given to older people with wider
experience. These were often considered the most qualified to hold
places of leadership. The basic meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words
for elder is "old age."
In the Old Testament those leaders associated with Moses in governing
the nation of Israel were called "the elders of Israel" (Ex 3:16;
24:1), "the elders of the people" (Ex 19:7), or the "seventy
elders" (Ex 24:1). Moses called these elders together to give them
instructions for the observance of the Passover before the Exodus from
Egypt.
Later, after the years of wandering in the wilderness, bodies of
elders ruled in each city. These elders were viewed as the
representatives of the nation and its people. The term elder
eventually came to be applied to those who governed in the local
communities, the rulers of the various tribes, and those who ruled all
of Israel. These leaders were responsible for legal, political and
military guidance and supervision.
During the years of Israel's captivity in Babylon and the following
centuries, elders again appeared as leaders who were responsible for
governing in the Jewish communities. These elders became the upper
class, forming a type of ruling aristocracy. Later in this period, a
council of elders of 71 members, called the SANHEDRIN, emerged. This
council had both religious and political authority among all the
Jewish people in Palestine, particularly in New Testament times. The
HIGH PRIEST was the chairman of the Sanhedrin. Local Jewish
synagogues, which emerged in the period between the Old and New
Testaments, were also governed by a council of elders.
A governing structure similar to the ruling elders among the Jews was
followed in the early church. The title elder was continued, but the
significance of the office changed. Thus, the term elder is used in
the New Testament to refer to the Jewish elders of the synagogue, to
the members of the Sanhedrin, and to certain persons who held office
in the church. It also implied seniority by reason of age (1 Tim 5:2;
1 Peter 5:5).
The presence of elders in the church in the New Testament indicates
that this office was taken over from the synagogue. Elders were
associated with James in Jerusalem in the local church's government
(Acts 11:30; 21:18) and, with the apostles, in the decision of the
early church council (Acts 15). Elders were also appointed in the
churches established during the apostle Paul's first missionary
journey (Acts 14:23). Paul addressed the elders at Ephesus (Acts
20:17-35). Elders played an important role in church life through
their ministry to the sick (James 5:14,15). They were apparently the
teachers also in a local congregation. In addition to ministering to
the sick, their duties consisted of explaining the Scriptures and
teaching doctrine (1 Tim 5:17; 1 Peter 5:5).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
User: "terry"

Title: Re: CARL & CHUCK: TRUTH ! 21 Jan 2008 09:36:52 PM
Carl wrote in message ...

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,
temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not
a lover of money. (NIV)

An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose
children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and
disobedient. Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must
be blameless -- not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to
drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must
be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled,
upright, holy and disciplined. (NIV)


BISHOP
An overseer, elder, or pastor charged with the responsibility of
spiritual leadership in a local church in New Testament times.
Before the church was founded, the Greek word for bishop was used in a
general sense to refer to local gods as those who watched over people
or countries. The word was later applied to men, including those who
held positions as magistrates or other government offices. And
eventually the term was extended to refer to officials in religious
communities with various functions, including those who supervised the
revenues of pagan temples.
The SEPTUAGINT (Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses bishop to
refer to those who exercise power; sometimes it indicates those who
hold positions of authority. It represents a Hebrew term that refers
to those who are overseers or officers (Num 4:16; Neh 9:9).
In the New Testament, Jesus is called the "Overseer of your souls" (1
Peter 2:25). In this passage the word is associated with the term
shepherd. It is also used to identify the leader of a Christian
community or the one who filled the office of overseer. In Acts 20:28
the elders of the church at Ephesus summoned to meet Paul are
identified as overseers. Their responsibility, given by the Holy
Spirit, was "to shepherd the church of God." In Phil 1 bishops are
associated with deacons, and the qualifications are outlined in 1 Tim
3:2-7 and Titus 1:7-9. Included are standards for his personal and
home life, as well as the bishop's relationships with non-believers.
In Acts 20:17,28 and Titus 1:5,7, the terms bishop and elder are used
synonymously. Also the word bishop, or its related words, appears to
be synonymous with the word shepherd, or its equivalents (Acts 20:28;
1 Peter 2:25; 5:2).
In his work, the bishop was to oversee the flock of God, to shepherd
his people, to protect them from enemies, and to teach, exhort, and
encourage. He was to accomplish this primarily by being an example to
his people. He was to do this willingly and with an eager spirit, not
by coercion or for financial gain. To desire a position as bishop, the
apostle Paul declared, was to desire a good work (1 Tim 3:1). Also see
ELDER.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)


ELDER
A term used throughout the Bible but designating different ideas at
various times in biblical history. The word may refer to age,
experience, and authority, as well as specific leadership roles.
In ancient times authority was given to older people with wider
experience. These were often considered the most qualified to hold
places of leadership. The basic meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words
for elder is "old age."
In the Old Testament those leaders associated with Moses in governing
the nation of Israel were called "the elders of Israel" (Ex 3:16;
24:1), "the elders of the people" (Ex 19:7), or the "seventy
elders" (Ex 24:1). Moses called these elders together to give them
instructions for the observance of the Passover before the Exodus from
Egypt.
Later, after the years of wandering in the wilderness, bodies of
elders ruled in each city. These elders were viewed as the
representatives of the nation and its people. The term elder
eventually came to be applied to those who governed in the local
communities, the rulers of the various tribes, and those who ruled all
of Israel. These leaders were responsible for legal, political and
military guidance and supervision.
During the years of Israel's captivity in Babylon and the following
centuries, elders again appeared as leaders who were responsible for
governing in the Jewish communities. These elders became the upper
class, forming a type of ruling aristocracy. Later in this period, a
council of elders of 71 members, called the SANHEDRIN, emerged. This
council had both religious and political authority among all the
Jewish people in Palestine, particularly in New Testament times. The
HIGH PRIEST was the chairman of the Sanhedrin. Local Jewish
synagogues, which emerged in the period between the Old and New
Testaments, were also governed by a council of elders.
A governing structure similar to the ruling elders among the Jews was
followed in the early church. The title elder was continued, but the
significance of the office changed. Thus, the term elder is used in
the New Testament to refer to the Jewish elders of the synagogue, to
the members of the Sanhedrin, and to certain persons who held office
in the church. It also implied seniority by reason of age (1 Tim 5:2;
1 Peter 5:5).
The presence of elders in the church in the New Testament indicates
that this office was taken over from the synagogue. Elders were
associated with James in Jerusalem in the local church's government
(Acts 11:30; 21:18) and, with the apostles, in the decision of the
early church council (Acts 15). Elders were also appointed in the
churches established during the apostle Paul's first missionary
journey (Acts 14:23). Paul addressed the elders at Ephesus (Acts
20:17-35). Elders played an important role in church life through
their ministry to the sick (James 5:14,15). They were apparently the
teachers also in a local congregation. In addition to ministering to
the sick, their duties consisted of explaining the Scriptures and
teaching doctrine (1 Tim 5:17; 1 Peter 5:5).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)

So, Carl. Is there a point you are trying to make in all of this????
Terry Ivy
.



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