Hi! :)
This post is not about Preterism, nor is it an attack on
Futurism. It's just a post designed to look at Futurism
as applied to Revelation and to see the natural and
logical progression of how things turn out, using
the Futurist view.
I am told by Futurists that Revelation is probably the most
symbolic book in the Bible. However, when I examine it
with them, they tend to read almost all of it very literally
(physically literal) and they claim it's all chronological.
So I say, why not roll with it, right?! :)
So if you have just a few minutes, let's take a look
at what it says briefly and see where this approach
leaves us, okay? I'm not going to try to argue as
to whether or not it is as they say. But rather,
I'm just going to, as I said, "roll with it" and see
where we end up. And I'm not going to try to
deal with the whole book, but just the end and
we can skip right to the point! Sound good? :)
And if I get a detail wrong here or there, there is
no need to jump all over me. I'm not perfect. :)
I would ask though, that you remember that some
Futurists look at some verses slightly differently
than other Futurists and that responding by making
a huge deal out of a detail, makes it appear as if
you're intentionally trying to avoid the main points.
So anyway, according to the Futurists, the following
is physically literal and Jesus comes down to Earth
physically and conquers:
Revelation 19:11-21
11) Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse.
And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12) His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head
were many crowns. He had a name written that no one
knew except Himself.
13) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and
His name is called The Word of God.
14) And the armies in Heaven, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15) Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword,
that with it He should strike the nations. And
He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.
He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness
and wrath of Almighty God.
16) And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name
written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he
cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly
in the midst of heaven; Come and gather together for
the supper of the great God,
18) that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of
captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses
and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all
people, free and slave, both small and great.
19) And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and
their armies, gathered together to make war against
Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20) Then the beast was captured, and with him the
false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by
which he deceived those who received the mark of
the beast and those who worshiped his image.
These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning
with brimstone.
21) And the rest were killed with the sword which
proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the
horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
As we see here, it says that "the beast and the
false prophet" were thrown into the lake of fire,
so they exist no more.
We also see here, that "the rest were killed with
the sword that proceeded from the mouth of Him
who sat on the horse". So they're gone too!
The only question I must ask here, which I ask only
because Futurists have told me that the sword sticking
out of Jesus' mouth is a symbolic part of these passages
and represents the word of God (or at least they did
after I proved it does, I don't remember which),
is how does Jesus physically "kill them" with this
"sword sticking out of His mouth", when it is symbolic
of the word of God? Hello??? :)
Seriously, does He smack them around with a Bible?
I'm honestly not trying to be humorous here. I am
very serious. If I use the Futurist view, "the rest"
were killed by the sword that sticks out of His mouth.
So if He's literally riding a horse and the rest is literal,
but the sword sticking out of His mouth is symbolism
representing the word of God and yet, they actually
physically die, how does He physically kill them with
the word of God, symbolically sticking out of His mouth?
Remember, they say it's about Him physically coming
and physically killing them!
Anyway, just a question that popped into my head.
And now, on with the Scriptures! :)
Now the Devil and all unbelievers are thrown into the
lake of fire once the judgment happens, which it does
and according to the Futurists, involves everyone in
the whole world, meaning the whole planet is judged.
And then of course, it also says that "death and Hades
(the place or state of the dead) are also thrown into
the lake of fire, in the following verses (the KJV says
"Hell", but the Koine Greek word there is indeed "Hades"):
Revelation 20:10-15
10) The Devil, who deceived them, was cast into
the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast
and the false prophet are. And they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever.
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who
sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven
fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing
before God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And
the dead were judged according to their works,
by the things which were written in the books.
13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it,
and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who
were in them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works.
14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake
of fire. This is the second death.
15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life
was cast into the lake of fire.
So thus far, all unbelievers are judged and thrown
into the lake of fire and so were the Devil and the
false prophet.
And now...
Revelation 21:1-2
1) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
for the first heaven and the first earth had
passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God, prepared
as a bride adorned for her husband.
23) And the city had no need of the Sun, neither
of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God
did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
....we have the new heaven and earth and the
New Jerusalem has come down and rolling along
with the Futurist doctrine, God and Jesus have
packed up their stuff in Heaven and live in this
New Jerusalem and are the light thereof
(although technically it doesn't say that they
moved into the city).
Okay, so everyone with me so far? Yes? Good! :)
So now what's left? I mean, how does it all end?
Well, let's take a look at it and see, shall we? :)
Now if we read Scripture according to the Futurist
doctrine, then the way it ends up, is with the new
heaven and the new earth and the Devil and the
false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and so
are the unbelievers.
Okay, so what's the problem, right? I mean, we're on
this new earth, with the Devil gone and all unbelievers
have been tossed into the lake of fire, so THERE'S NO
SINNERS LEFT and all that's left of people, according
to the Futurist doctrine, are believers, who have been
raised in their (no offense intended) "super, sci-fi,
perfect, live forever" bodies and the old planet is
gone anyway.
So that should do it, right? :) One would think, yes?
But unfortunately for the Futurist doctrine, it isn't
and there's a very dark ending, if we read Scripture
in the same way that the Futurists do!
What could I possibly mean by that? How could it
have a DARK ending, just because we read it as a
Futurist would?! That doesn't sound right, does it?
Well, let's take a look and see, shall we? And remember,
the key here, is that they read it as being physically
literal.
Now Futurists may jump in here and claim that they
don't read it all that way and this and that and attack
me over this, but folks, that will be them trying to
distract you from the truth of this situation! And the
truth of this situation, is that everything I posted here,
aside from the sword sticking out of Jesus' mouth,
the Futurists do read as being physically literal and
even more importantly, the passages that I am about
to quote, they DO indeed read as being physically literal
and any attempt to claim otherwise, is simply them
changing their doctrine on the fly, to avoid admitting
that when we get to these next passages, they have
a serious, serious, serious problem, as you shall see!
So anyway, we had all of that stuff above happen
and now comes the next part...
Revelation 22:14-15
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments,
that they may have the right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
So here, on the new earth, there are no more sinners,
since they were already thrown into the lake of fire,
as was Satan, which means that he can't tempt anyone
any more! And besides this, let us not forget, according
to the Futurist doctrine, at this point, we're in our
resurrected, immortal bodies, which are free from that
old carnal nature and we have no more desire to be
that old man and sin! That old man is literally dead!
The Father and the Son have left Heaven and are now
living in this New Jerusalem!
One thing does strike me though. Why note that only
those who do His Commandments can enter into the city,
if there is no one except those who do His Commandments
left on Earth anyway? Well, let's read the next verse and
see what it says! :)
15) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually
immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever
loves and practices a lie.
But what is this? Those who do His Commandments
can go inside the gates, but those who are evil must
stay outside the gates? Hmmm... But I thought they
were gone? According to the Futurist doctrine, they
are supposed to be! After all, if we're reading it in
the literal sense that the Futurists do and if it does
involve everyone on the planet and the physical
destruction of the old physical planet, then they
should be gone, amen? I mean, what's the point,
if we end up living in the same situation (with sin
on Earth), amen?
Yet, here they are, outside the gates of the city and
where is the city? On Earth! It's the New Jerusalem
that according to the Futurist doctrine, is a physically
literal city, here on Earth, that appears on the new
earth, after the judgment happens and the sinners are
judged and gone! As I said, what is the point of it all,
if the new Earth ends up being full of sinners, right?
The Futurists make a huge deal out of telling us how
it is physically literal and how Earth will be a paradise
forever and that we will all live here, free from sin
and evil forever, do they not? Of course they do!
Anyone who denies that, is flat out lying, amen?!
Thus, it seems that after all of it happens and the Earth
is redeemed (the planet itself) and is new, that once
again, we have sinners on it and not only that, but they
are right outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, which
means that they are obviously free to go anywhere on
Earth that they want to, but they just can't go inside
that city itself. And since God cannot be around sin,
this unfortunately leaves both Father and Son holed up
in the city, trapped there, since they are now physical
beings, since they live on Earth and can be seen by us
and we're physical humans again, according to Futurists
and sin is right outside the gates of the city!
So in the end, what we have, is an Earth that ends up
the same way as it was, with only one difference...
The Father and the Son are living on Earth, trapped
inside of the gates!
And redeemed (physically) believers must live among sinners
on Earth and the world still has those who are "dogs and
sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters,
and those who love and practice a lie".
So what was it all for? And how do Futurists explain this
problem? After all, remember, I didn't create this problem!
And I only followed their logic through to its inevitable
conclusion! This is what it ends up being, following
their doctrine out to its logical end and so, it's up to
them to explain it, not me!
I've had some tell me all kinds of ridiculous things,
but no one has given a real answer as to how these
people got there and they are definitely alive, since
it says that it is present tense and in active form.
One guy said, "Maybe they're in space" <lol>, even though
it's clear that they're outside the gates of the city and it
is talking about who can enter the city and who can't.
And where does Scripture say; "And they will be in outer
space"??? The point is, that after everything has
supposedly been "redeemed", sinners are still living here
on Earth and are still sinning and the Father and the Son
are both holed up; trapped in the city, since they are not
going to leave Heaven to come and live in a sinful world,
which of course begs the question, why would they be
here then? So they end up losing Heaven and coming
to live where they have to stay holed up? Was that
really a smart move??? This is the culmination of
"God's perfect plane"?! Huh?!?
The point I'm making, is that if we follow the Futurist
doctrine through to its logical conclusion, we end up
living in a world in which our God is holed up in a city
and sinners are running rampant in the world, but just
can't enter the city.
And so the question this begs is; "What was it all for?".
Seriously. What was it all for?! I mean after all, it
appears that what we're supposed to be waiting for,
is for a world full of murderers and sorcerers and liars
and all kinds of evil people! Is this the world you
have been hoping for, if the Futurist view of it being
physically literal is true? Is this the world that you
think is supposed to happen? Because what we have
here, is God's plan of salvation for mankind, shown
to us throughout the Bible and the way it ends up,
is as I said, with God holed up in a city and sinners
running around on Earth with us. It seems to me,
that this makes it all for nothing and it means that
God's plan was useless; a waste of time. And not
only that, but if the Futurist reading is true and that
is the only way that the Scriptures should be read
as they claim, He also told us right up front that
His plan was a waste of time! If that is the case,
then hey, maybe it was just a test to see if we're
stupid enough to follow someone who will end up
holed up in a city on a sinful Earth. And that means
that God can't be much brighter than us! I don't
know about you, but that's not the God that I worship!
Now I know that some of you will be getting all upset
now and slam me, claiming I'm being sacrilegious, but
the reality is, that I am only following the Futurist plan
through to its logical end. In other words, "If A, then B".
I do not believe that God is a moron. I'm saying that
if the Futurist way of reading Scripture is true, then He
ends up being a moron, once we really examine the issue
and follow their way of reading the Scriptures through
to the logical end of their way of reading them.
So you can call me anything you want to, but the reality is,
I'm not the one who has things ending up this way. That's
what your doctrine does to it, not mine, so these are your
issues for you to work out with your own doctrine.
And one question... If it is about a judgment that involves
both the dead and the living at the same time (or close to
the same time), as the Futurists claim, then can you find
a passage that says that the living are judged when this
judgment happens? I mean, is it about judging everyone
still alive on Earth as well? Or is it just about judging
the dead that it actually speaks of?
And I don't mean the word "judgment" being used.
God has judged nations before. We're talking about
God judging every living person on the planet at the
same time and this all happens just before, during,
or just after He judges the dead. Can you find a
verse that says that, anywhere in the New Testament?
Anyway, I hope you will just take a few moments to think
about what has been presented here and that you won't
let emotion and bias rule your response, whether to me,
or to yourself.
I say this, because I know how that moment felt. I too,
was brought up on a Futurist view and felt that leaving
that view was the same as leaving Christ. It wasn't and
it isn't! And to me, looking at how the Jewish people
viewed the "heaven and earth" statements and knowing that
Jesus was God walking Earth and knowing that He would not
have done a "180" and spoke to them in a completely
different manner than He always had throughout the
Old Testament, I take those statements in line with
what was taught throughout the Old Testament and it is
our ignorance of the Old Testament and our attempts to
treat the New Testament as some completely different
"Bible", that creates all of these misunderstandings
of what the New Testament says to us all!
Or is it a matter of ego for you? Or is it vanity?
Or maybe it's both? "If it's not all about us today,
then what good is the Bible?"? Is that what you
ask yourself? And is that really where you want to
start from???
Anyway, think about it. :)
--
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth
upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt"
- Isaiah 19:1 (a prophecy about Egypt,
fulfilled in 480 B.C.)
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