On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:50:28 -0700, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spake thusly:


Re: Trinity

That is an extra-biblical doctrine too!

No, it isn't. Although I am speaking simply of the
idea of God in three Persons and not all that
churches "trinity" ideas may entail. I do not base
my beliefs on extra-Biblical doctrines. If it can't
be proved Scripturally, then I don't believe it.

Now go ahead and tell me how Jesus prayed to the
Father, without recognizing the time line issue. :)

JP
Where is the word "Trinity" used in the Bible?

I agree that this can be confusing, with all of the
texts that MAY SEEM to contradict each other.
I believe that the errors come in, in ignoring the
time line that is given in Scripture. I will
demonstrate that further down. But first, allow
me to demonstrate the three Persons and please,
finish reading this before you respond and please
consider it carefully, resisting the urge to jump
into a response with what "YOU KNOW" to be
the truth. :)

You have just jousted with me about reading into
language used and about constructing from
what was not linguistically used in the biblical texts.
I don't understand your sense of consistency.

I can understand how you would feel that way.
That is why I was very careful with this issue
and frankly, I was unable to completely resolve
this issue for years! But I prayed and asked God
for guidance and He immediately showed me
something and I have also learned to consider
the time line, which is also key to this issue.

Thus, you are right. It must be in the language
of the Scripture, although the word itself is not
found there. Neither is the word "rapture", which
is a thing that many believe in (I don't not). But
I don't reject the doctrine because the word is
not there. I understand they're using the word
"rapture" in place of "caught up". I reject it
because, after careful Bible study, I do not see
the doctrine in the Scriptures.

Anyway, as I said, let me present the three Persons
first and then the time line.


God is our Savior.

"For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel,
thy Savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and
Seba for thee." - Isaiah 43:3

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the
command of God our Savior, and of the Lord Jesus
Christ, our hope, " - 1 Timothy 1:1

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God
our Savior," - 1 Timothy 2:3

"but revealed His Word in its own times in a
proclamation, with which I was entrusted by
the command of God our Savior,)" - Titus 1:3


Jesus is He who they waiting for, to appear,
not the Father. Jesus called God and Savior
(note names are in context of His appearing)...

"looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance
of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
- Titus 2:13


Text showing the Persons (God as Father; Jesus
as Lord and Savior)...

"to Titus, a true child according to our common faith.
Grace mercy and peace from God the Father and
the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." - Titus 1:4


It cannot be that God is only the Father AND that
God is our Savior AND that Jesus is our Savior.
That would be to ascribe something to someone
you do not consider God, the title belonging to God
and God alone.

And btw, Who is called the "Holy One" (see Isaiah
quote earlier in message)?

A prophecy of Jesus' resurrection...

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt
thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
- Psalm 16:10

"I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy
truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp,
O thou Holy One of Israel." - Psalm 71:22


God created man...

"And God created man in His image; in the image of God
He created him. He created them male and female."
- Genesis 1:27

One verse prior...

"And God said, Let Us make man in OUR image,
after OUR likeness." - Genesis 1:26a


God created the Earth...

"In the beginning God created the heavens and
the earth." - Genesis 1:1

The Spirit of God moves over the face of the waters...

"And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the
waters." - Genesis 1:2b


Jesus, the Word, is God and made everything...

John 1:1-3,14

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God.
2) He was in the beginning with God.
3) All things came into being through Him, and without
Him not even one thing came into being that has come
into being.
14) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled
among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and
of truth.


The Father and Jesus living in us, through the
Holy Spirit...

"Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he
will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We
will come to him and make Our abode with him."
- John 14:23


Thomas confesses Jesus as God. Jesus does not
rebuke him, but rather, confirms it...

John 20:28-29

28) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord
and my God!
29) Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen
Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not
seen and have believed.

Believed what? Thomas's confession, that's what,
since that's what Thomas just said and what Jesus
responded to.


There is a time line here.

Before He appeared, He was with God and was God.

John 1:1-3,14

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God.
2) He was in the beginning with God.
3) All things came into being through Him, and without
Him not even one thing came into being that has come
into being.
14) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled
among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and
of truth.


While He walked here, He was a little lower then the
angels and subject to the Law, so He could be the
perfect, sinless sacrifice.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than
the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with
glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should
taste death for all." - Hebrews 2:9


After He ascended, He sat down at the right hand of
God, receiving the glory He had with God the Father,
before the world was.

"And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the
glory which I had with You before the world was."
- John 17:5


As fir the Holy Spirit, I have shown how He was
involved in the creation and we can also see Him
in the work of God dwelling is us through Him...

John 14:16-17

16) And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you
another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
17) the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive
because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you
know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he
will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We
will come to him and make Our abode with him."
- John 14:23


And finally...

Philippians 2:5-6

5) For let this mind be in you which was also
in Christ Jesus,
6) who, being in the form of God, thought it
not robbery to be equal with God,

Who is equal to God, but God? No one but God,
that's who.


Now I agree that God the Father does rule over all now
(the end timers think this has yet to come, but since I
believe the prophecies of the NT have been fulfilled,
I say it is the case now), or don't even realize that
it is supposed to (already has, I believe).

1 Corinthians 15:26-28

26) The last enemy made to cease is death.
27) For He put all things under His feet. But
when He says that all things have been put
under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him
who has put all things under Him.
28) But when all things are subjected to Him,
then the Son Himself also will be subject to
Him who has subjected all things to Him, so
that God may be all things in all.

Now if the Son WILL BE subject to God the Father,
then He WAS NOT previously. That's simple logic.
And who could possibly not be subject to God,
but God?

It seems confusing, I know. :) But who ever claimed
to completely understand the Trinity? :)

We see almost everything in three parts and the Bible
says that God is UNDERSTOOD by the things He made.

"For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being realized by the things
that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
for them to be without excuse." - Romans 1:20

And note... GODHEAD. Not just, "God".

Now look at the most basic part of the Creation that we
understand, at least as of today, The atom, which has
three parts. Protons, Neutrons and Electrons.

Now do you understand how the like charges of the
Protons don't end up making them fly away (repel) from
each other and into the oppositely charged (which would
attract them) Electrons? I don't and I actually taught
subatomic theory. :)

The point I'm making is, the GODHEAD is understood
by the THINGS THAT ARE MADE. If that is true, then
when we look at the atom, we should see a reflection
and a help in understanding the GODHEAD, which
created all things (Gen 1:1-2; John 1:1-3). And that
reflection shows three parts that make up the whole.

Man can't understand it and so he makes up something
called, "Gluons" (laugh) to explain it. But this just
goes to show how man mucks things up, when he tries
to play the genius. :)

If you wish to respond, that is fine. I will discuss
it with you. But my point is, do not respond with
statements like the one people use about Jesus
praying to the Father, when that ignores the time
line that Scripture itself shows, when it clearly says
that He was made a little lower than the angels,
FOR THE PURPOSE OF His mission and shows
that His level of glory and His position was different
before and after His mission on Earth (Scripture
proofs quoted above).

Do you see what I mean about how these arguments
really don't address the issue itself and people only
think they do? That is what I am saying. The
statements of His Person in Scripture throughout
and the time line issue are extremely crucial! Those,
along with understanding that both Testaments
testify of His position.

Jehovah is in the pillar...

"And Jehovah went before them by day in a pillar
of a cloud, to lead them the right away, and by night
in a pillar of fire, to give them light, to go by day
and night." - Exodus 13:21

Yet it is the Angel of the Lord that was in the pillar
(Christ, as I will show) and in the following text,
discussing the crossing of the Red Sea, it shows
that the pillar moved to a position behind them,
while they crossed (note it's called "the pillar of
the cloud in the daytime, since it was a pillar of
fire, at night)...

"And the Angel of God, the one who went before
the camp of Israel, moved. And he went to the rear
of them. And the pillar of the cloud went from in front
of their face and it stood behind them." - Exodus 14:19

Paul says, speaking of the crossing of the Red Sea,
that the One following them was Christ (under the
cloud) and he also uses the comparison of the rock
giving regular water, versus Christ's statement of
Him being living water...

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1) And, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all
passed through the sea.
2) And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud and
in the sea,
3) and all ate the same spiritual food,
4) and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they
drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them,
and that Rock was Christ.

Thus, the Scripture tells us also in both Testaments,
of His position and we have three things to pay
attention to. Hey, there's that "three" again! :)

I hope this has explained my position well and has
been edifying for you.

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:50:28 -0700, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spake thusly:


Re: Trinity

That is an extra-biblical doctrine too!

No, it isn't. Although I am speaking simply of the
idea of God in three Persons and not all that
churches "trinity" ideas may entail. I do not base
my beliefs on extra-Biblical doctrines. If it can't
be proved Scripturally, then I don't believe it.

Now go ahead and tell me how Jesus prayed to the
Father, without recognizing the time line issue. :)

JP
Where is the word "Trinity" used in the Bible?

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 11:50:28 -0700, Jerry Patterson
<jerry@dslextreme.com> spake thusly:


Re: Trinity

That is an extra-biblical doctrine too!

No, it isn't. Although I am speaking simply of the
idea of God in three Persons and not all that
churches "trinity" ideas may entail. I do not base
my beliefs on extra-Biblical doctrines. If it can't
be proved Scripturally, then I don't believe it.

Now go ahead and tell me how Jesus prayed to the
Father, without recognizing the time line issue. :)

JP
Where is the word "Trinity" used in the Bible?

I agree that this can be confusing, with all of the
texts that MAY SEEM to contradict each other.
I believe that the errors come in, in ignoring the
time line that is given in Scripture. I will
demonstrate that further down. But first, allow
me to demonstrate the three Persons and please,
finish reading this before you respond and please
consider it carefully, resisting the urge to jump
into a response with what "YOU KNOW" to be
the truth. :)

You have just jousted with me about reading into
language used and about constructing from
what was not linguistically used in the biblical texts.
I don't understand your sense of consistency.

I can understand how you would feel that way.
That is why I was very careful with this issue
and frankly, I was unable to completely resolve
this issue for years! But I prayed and asked God
for guidance and He immediately showed me
something and I have also learned to consider
the time line, which is also key to this issue.

Thus, you are right. It must be in the language
of the Scripture, although the word itself is not
found there. Neither is the word "rapture", which
is a thing that many believe in (I don't not). But
I don't reject the doctrine because the word is
not there. I understand they're using the word
"rapture" in place of "caught up". I reject it
because, after careful Bible study, I do not see
the doctrine in the Scriptures.

Anyway, as I said, let me present the three Persons
first and then the time line.


God is our Savior.

"For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel,
thy Savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and
Seba for thee." - Isaiah 43:3

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the
command of God our Savior, and of the Lord Jesus
Christ, our hope, " - 1 Timothy 1:1

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God
our Savior," - 1 Timothy 2:3

"but revealed His Word in its own times in a
proclamation, with which I was entrusted by
the command of God our Savior,)" - Titus 1:3


Jesus is He who they waiting for, to appear,
not the Father. Jesus called God and Savior
(note names are in context of His appearing)...

"looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance
of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
- Titus 2:13


Text showing the Persons (God as Father; Jesus
as Lord and Savior)...

"to Titus, a true child according to our common faith.
Grace mercy and peace from God the Father and
the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." - Titus 1:4


It cannot be that God is only the Father AND that
God is our Savior AND that Jesus is our Savior.
That would be to ascribe something to someone
you do not consider God, the title belonging to God
and God alone.

And btw, Who is called the "Holy One" (see Isaiah
quote earlier in message)?

A prophecy of Jesus' resurrection...

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt
thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
- Psalm 16:10

"I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy
truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp,
O thou Holy One of Israel." - Psalm 71:22


God created man...

"And God created man in His image; in the image of God
He created him. He created them male and female."
- Genesis 1:27

One verse prior...

"And God said, Let Us make man in OUR image,
after OUR likeness." - Genesis 1:26a


God created the Earth...

"In the beginning God created the heavens and
the earth." - Genesis 1:1

The Spirit of God moves over the face of the waters...

"And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the
waters." - Genesis 1:2b


Jesus, the Word, is God and made everything...

John 1:1-3,14

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God.
2) He was in the beginning with God.
3) All things came into being through Him, and without
Him not even one thing came into being that has come
into being.
14) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled
among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and
of truth.


The Father and Jesus living in us, through the
Holy Spirit...

"Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he
will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We
will come to him and make Our abode with him."
- John 14:23


Thomas confesses Jesus as God. Jesus does not
rebuke him, but rather, confirms it...

John 20:28-29

28) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord
and my God!
29) Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen
Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not
seen and have believed.

Believed what? Thomas's confession, that's what,
since that's what Thomas just said and what Jesus
responded to.


There is a time line here.

Before He appeared, He was with God and was God.

John 1:1-3,14

1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
with God, and the Word was God.
2) He was in the beginning with God.
3) All things came into being through Him, and without
Him not even one thing came into being that has come
into being.
14) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled
among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as
of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and
of truth.


While He walked here, He was a little lower then the
angels and subject to the Law, so He could be the
perfect, sinless sacrifice.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than
the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with
glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should
taste death for all." - Hebrews 2:9


After He ascended, He sat down at the right hand of
God, receiving the glory He had with God the Father,
before the world was.

"And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the
glory which I had with You before the world was."
- John 17:5


As fir the Holy Spirit, I have shown how He was
involved in the creation and we can also see Him
in the work of God dwelling is us through Him...

John 14:16-17

16) And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you
another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
17) the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive
because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you
know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he
will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We
will come to him and make Our abode with him."
- John 14:23


And finally...

Philippians 2:5-6

5) For let this mind be in you which was also
in Christ Jesus,
6) who, being in the form of God, thought it
not robbery to be equal with God,

Who is equal to God, but God? No one but God,
that's who.


Now I agree that God the Father does rule over all now
(the end timers think this has yet to come, but since I
believe the prophecies of the NT have been fulfilled,
I say it is the case now), or don't even realize that
it is supposed to (already has, I believe).

1 Corinthians 15:26-28

26) The last enemy made to cease is death.
27) For He put all things under His feet. But
when He says that all things have been put
under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him
who has put all things under Him.
28) But when all things are subjected to Him,
then the Son Himself also will be subject to
Him who has subjected all things to Him, so
that God may be all things in all.

Now if the Son WILL BE subject to God the Father,
then He WAS NOT previously. That's simple logic.
And who could possibly not be subject to God,
but God?

It seems confusing, I know. :) But who ever claimed
to completely understand the Trinity? :)

We see almost everything in three parts and the Bible
says that God is UNDERSTOOD by the things He made.

"For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being realized by the things
that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
for them to be without excuse." - Romans 1:20

And note... GODHEAD. Not just, "God".

Now look at the most basic part of the Creation that we
understand, at least as of today, The atom, which has
three parts. Protons, Neutrons and Electrons.

Now do you understand how the like charges of the
Protons don't end up making them fly away (repel) from
each other and into the oppositely charged (which would
attract them) Electrons? I don't and I actually taught
subatomic theory. :)

The point I'm making is, the GODHEAD is understood
by the THINGS THAT ARE MADE. If that is true, then
when we look at the atom, we should see a reflection
and a help in understanding the GODHEAD, which
created all things (Gen 1:1-2; John 1:1-3). And that
reflection shows three parts that make up the whole.

Man can't understand it and so he makes up something
called, "Gluons" (laugh) to explain it. But this just
goes to show how man mucks things up, when he tries
to play the genius. :)

If you wish to respond, that is fine. I will discuss
it with you. But my point is, do not respond with
statements like the one people use about Jesus
praying to the Father, when that ignores the time
line that Scripture itself shows, when it clearly says
that He was made a little lower than the angels,
FOR THE PURPOSE OF His mission and shows
that His level of glory and His position was different
before and after His mission on Earth (Scripture
proofs quoted above).

Do you see what I mean about how these arguments
really don't address the issue itself and people only
think they do? That is what I am saying. The
statements of His Person in Scripture throughout
and the time line issue are extremely crucial! Those,
along with understanding that both Testaments
testify of His position.

Jehovah is in the pillar...

"And Jehovah went before them by day in a pillar
of a cloud, to lead them the right away, and by night
in a pillar of fire, to give them light, to go by day
and night." - Exodus 13:21

Yet it is the Angel of the Lord that was in the pillar
(Christ, as I will show) and in the following text,
discussing the crossing of the Red Sea, it shows
that the pillar moved to a position behind them,
while they crossed (note it's called "the pillar of
the cloud in the daytime, since it was a pillar of
fire, at night)...

"And the Angel of God, the one who went before
the camp of Israel, moved. And he went to the rear
of them. And the pillar of the cloud went from in front
of their face and it stood behind them." - Exodus 14:19

Paul says, speaking of the crossing of the Red Sea,
that the One following them was Christ (under the
cloud) and he also uses the comparison of the rock
giving regular water, versus Christ's statement of
Him being living water...

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1) And, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant
that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all
passed through the sea.
2) And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud and
in the sea,
3) and all ate the same spiritual food,
4) and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they
drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them,
and that Rock was Christ.

Thus, the Scripture tells us also in both Testaments,
of His position and we have three things to pay
attention to. Hey, there's that "three" again! :)

I hope this has explained my position well and has
been edifying for you.

--

Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ

"There is therefore now no condemnation
to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk
not according to the flesh but according
to the Spirit." - Romans 8:1