On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 06:32:09 GMT, "Cdumo"
<cdumont@telusplanet.net> claimed:



Forgive the top post, but I only wish to say
something quick.

You made a lot of "Wrong again" statements
and told me that Ephesians is not Scripture.

You also made a lot of other statements,
but did not offer any support for the things
you said, leaving me to ask a bunch of
questions.

We will not agree on this and I am not going
to go off into a bunch of other subjects with
you, straying from what the thread is about.

I believe that my whole Bible is Scripture
and that the tribe of Benjamin is one of
the twelve tribes of Israel. You do not.
We will have to agree to disagree. This
thread is not about arguing over the tribes
and whether or not what Paul wrote is
Scripture.

So thank you, but no thank you. :)

"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mfs563h7q8d1mvj2vb7radsgbfjl22b60k@4ax.com...

Hi! :)

I know that for a number of people, the concept
of the 12 Apostles can be somewhat clouded,
given that it seems that there were actually 13.

Now frankly, I don't pretend to have an answer
to this dilemma and I think that anyone who
does, is probably letting his/her ego talk. :)

As a pastor, I am supposed to know my Bible,
of course and be able to answer all kinds of
questions. But I'm not perfect and there are
some things in the Bible that we are simply
not told and are left to speculate about.
I believe that this is one of them. :)

But I do have some speculations that I am
going to put forth. And whomever wishes to,
is certainly welcome to give some constructive
criticisms, or offer their speculations as well. :)

Revelation speaks of the New Jerusalem and
the 12 foundations, upon which were the
names of the 12 Apostles. That seems to
leave out the idea of 13. Or does it? :)

Now as you all know, I do not believe that
this is a literal city and I believe that Paul
referred to it as a spiritual thing in the
following as well (compare the Scriptures):

Ephesians 2:19-22 (with Rev 21:14,22)

19) Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers
and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints
and members of the household of God,
20) having been built on the foundation of
the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself
being the chief cornerstone,

"Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations,
and on them were the names of the twelve
apostles of the Lamb." - Revelation 21:14

21) in whom the whole building, being fitted
together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

This is not Scripture.

"But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty
and the Lamb are its temple." - Revelation 21:22

22) in whom you also are being built together
for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

This is not Scripture.

Now whether you believe it is literal or not is not
the issue here. I am simply making a comparison,
with the important point being that it says that
there are "12 Apostles" and showing how both
Paul in Ephesians and John in Revelation talk
about it and neither note 13 main Apostles.

It does make me wonder if maybe Ephesians
was written after Revelation though and Paul
was referring to it here. :) Of course, as you
all know, I believe that Revelation was written
prior to 70 AD. Again, that's not the issue
and is not important to this discussion. I'm
just making conversation in a side note. :)

Just for the record Rev. was written in 96 A.D. and Eph. was written in
60
A.D.

Anyway, Jesus also said the following in
response to Peter...

Matthew 19:27-28

27) Then answered Peter and said unto him,
Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed
thee; what shall we have therefore?
28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say
unto you, That ye which have followed me,
in the regeneration when the Son of man
shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also
shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the
twelve tribes of Israel.

So here it seems that Jesus also limited it to
12 main Apostles total, right? Or did He? :)

First we have to understand that there were
many apostles and they are noted throughout
the New Testament. The Greek word simply
means, "sent". That's it.

Wrong again, apostles means sent with orders, [elect or saints]

But I think we would all also agree that there
were 12 *main* Apostles, as the concept.
The Bible refers to "the twelve" even after
the Gospels, as was shown in part, above.

Or could it be 13 Apostles total? I know that
doesn't seem to make sense, compared to
what I just said and I'm not disagreeing
with what I just said. And I'm also not saying
that there definitely were to be 13 Apostles,
yet I am speculating about it as a possibility
and will try to do so, without raising any
contradictions.

I know, I sound confusing. :) But please,
just have patience with me and you'll see
why I said it that way, in question form.

You see, the problem comes in when we realize
that Judas betrayed Christ and died and so,
he could not possibly be one of the 12 that
Jesus was speaking of, that I can see anyway
and then we have Matthias AND Paul entering
in as Apostles and I mean Chief Apostles.
Doesn't that total 13 Apostles? :)

Wrong again, Judas was an elect, he was sent with orders to do what he
did, he repented for his sin when he returned the silver, his body was cut
open from the neck to his groin and his guts came out them was hung, he
had
a lot of help.

So now you see the dilemma, which you probably
already knew about anyway and now you see part
of the reason why I asked, "Could it actually be 13?".

But yet, we have Jesus' words, which seem to say
that there would only be 12 (quoted above), right?

Well, actually, Jesus said that there would be 12
that "judged the 12 tribes of Israel" and that is
why it raises some speculation in my mind.
And you'll see more of why I noted that
further down.

So how do we resolve this? Well, let's take a look
and see what we can come up with, okay? :)

Personally, I have 3 options that I believe are
possibilities, however remote one or more
may be.


1) There were to be 12 that "judged the 12 tribes
of Israel". But Paul ended up being, "the apostle
to the Gentiles", so maybe he doesn't count in that
12, since he went out to the Gentiles and the 12
that Jesus spoke of, would judge the 12 tribes of
Israel and so, he was a 13th Apostle and was the
Apostle to the Gentiles. Then again, Paul was a
Jew, as were the rest, so this may not be correct
at all and what Jesus said about 12, means that
there would only be 12, period and not 13 total.

Wrong again, Paul was not a Jew, he was a gentile from the tribe of
Benjamin. Rom.11:1

This means that if there were to be 12 and only 12
main Apostles, we have to look at options 2 and 3.


2) Matthias was not supposed to be chosen and
they did this on their own (without realizing it)
and it was supposed to be Paul who was chosen
and was chosen by our Lord.

Acts 9:3-6

3) As he [Paul] journeyed he came near Damascus,
and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
4) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice
saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?
5) And he said, Who are You, Lord? Then the Lord said,
I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for
you to kick against the goads.
6) So he, trembling and astonished, said, Lord, what
do You want me to do? Then the Lord said to him,
Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what
you must do.

So as it says, they "gave forth their lots" and Matthias
was chosen. But who says that he was supposed to
be chosen? Maybe he was, but after all, where does
it say that God told them do it? Yes, they prayed,
but they hadn't even received the Holy Spirit yet
and so, may have been acting of their own accord,
without realizing it. After all, Peter brought it up
and we all know what a rush he was always in. :)
But maybe our Lord had another choice in mind
and showed who it was, when He chose Paul
and so, Matthias was not one of the 12 main
Apostles? After all, the last time we hear about
Matthias, is when he was chosen by lots. This
is not proof of anything, but for the purposes
of our speculation, it may be worth noting,
since it is an interesting time to not hear his
name anymore after. :) But is this is true of
others as well, then what does that prove? :)


Now as for the last idea, you may not have heard
this one before, but it just occurred to me and I
thought I would throw it out there as an idea. :)


3) It was Thomas who was no longer one of the
chosen 12 and so it went down to 10 and they just
didn't realize it and then Matthias actually made 11
and Paul made 12. Now why do I say this? Simple.

Before Jesus appeared to Thomas, he said that unless
he could see and touch Jesus, he would NOT believe!

Now it isn't faith that seeks a sign! The world says
that seeing is believing, but the Bible says that
believing is seeing! So Jesus came in and said
to Thomas, "Go ahead, touch Me. Stick your hand
into my side". Then He said to Thomas, "You have
seen and believed. Blessed are those who have
NOT seen and have believed".

Now we all may tend to read that as if it says,
"MORE blessed are those who have not seen
and yet have believed", but that word "more"
is not there, is it?

Now if NOT seeing and believing is to "be blessed",
then wouldn't the opposite be true, that to require
seeing and touching in order to believe, would be
to be "NOT blessed"?

This raises an interesting point, doesn't it? :)

I mean on one side, you could say that Jesus
was having compassion on Him and I could
go with that, except for what Jesus said following
His having allowed Thomas to see and touch Him
in order to believe.

Now I'm not saying that this is the case and I could
be completely off base here! As I said, I am just
speculating and thought of this and thought that
maybe others hadn't considered this. I mean, we
hear nothing of Thomas after this, except 1 chapter
later, in which he is in a room with others praying,
but so were many others and so, that doesn't prove
that he is indeed one of the 12 main Apostles.

Of course, not hearing about him after that doesn't
prove anything either, since I don't believe that
we hear about all of them after Acts 3 anyway
and so, it doesn't prove that he wasn't one of
the 12 main Apostles either.

So anyway, there's my thoughts. Any ideas? :)
Additions? Speculations? Thoughts? Criticisms? :)

In the Scripture twelve means GOVERNMENTAL PERFECTION, twelve is the
number for GOVERNMENT BY DIVINE APPOINTMENT. Rev. says there will be 12
thousand out of each of the twelve tribes of Israel, since twelve means
governmental perfection the real number that will Judge in the millennium
will be in the millions.Ezekiel chapter 40 and up is about the millennium
temple and the judgment, chapter 44:15 talks about the Zadok, Zadok means
righteous, saint or elect. God no longer wants animal sacrifice, that was
changed, he wants our love. God bless

--

Pastor Dave

Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.

The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.

Doctrine is not Scripture.