Jayhawker <jayhaw@pentecost.net> wrote in message <4570ABCA.6BC50E00@pentecost.net>

True. Much of the pain is simply the wake made by humans making poor decisions on a grand scale. There is so much of it that it's hard (for us) to

trace it

back to specific humans. But *God* can trace it back. My faith tells me that.

I used to think that, back when I was a Christian. Since then I have learned that most pain and suffering in this world is neither caused by nor
preventable by humans. Richard Dawkins does a good job of discussing this fact in his book, "The Blind Watchmaker", when he talks about all the terrible
ways that animals suffer and die in the natural world, from parasites, disease and being eaten alive. Mankind did not design the parasites that gnaw at
animals, often in agonizingly painful ways. Mankind did not design the diseases that ravage their bodies and nervous systems. Mankind did not make
animals so that they would be totally indifferent to the suffering of other species and would gnaw on their sinews, muscles and viscera while they still
convulsed in spasms of pain.

To blame mankind for this tragic situation is to imply that god did not create this universe after all.

The conclusion is that, if there really were a god (which there is not)

I disagree.

Obviously, I disagree with your disagreement.<g>

he would have to be one mean, psychopathic being to let all this stuff happen.

It only happens in this world of dualities (the physical plane). Earth is a realm where life feeds on itself. Every creature is in competition with

every

other creature. Even social creatures, ultimately, are alone.

This is the exact opposite of the higher realms in God's Universe. There *unity* is the way of things. Spiritual beings don't prey upon one another or

feed

upon one another. There is no need to. Spiritual light is self-sustaining. But that state of affairs can only exist if all beings are selfless.

But we are talking about preventable evil in this universe.

Once a being in the upper realms of God's Universe becomes selfishly motivated, they are a threat to the peace of God's realms, and are, therefore, no

longer

welcome, and are banished until they can improve their attitude.

There is nowhere left for them to go but the physical plane, the metaphorical equivalent of what would happen in God's realms if disharmony were

allowed to

exist. So, we are here to learn that lesson. Once we have learned it, we can return to the upper realms.

What you are talking about sounds more like Hinduism than Christianity.

In any event, I don't see how this absolves an omnipotent being of the state of
the universe.

This criticism applies to ANY concept of god that attributes omnipotence and omniscience to a being, not just the fundamentalist concept of god.

The trouble arrises when trying to connect the loving and compasionate aspects of God with the idea of God as Law, God as Enforcer of the Law, God as

Judge of

violators of the Law, and God as conduit for the consequences of violating God's Law. All of these aspects of God, in my opinion, are mechanical. In

other

words they are without free will. They are not spiritual beings, as such. They are both equable and infallable. They apply equally to all spiritual

beings,

even God the Highest. Yes, even God cannot violate these laws without falling to where we have fallen. That is how we can understand the justice in

things

that may appear unjust.

Ah, the "deeper magic" referred to by Aslan in the "Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe", that even god can not violate. It's an elegant concept but of
course it can not escape the infinite regress problem. Where did this deeper law come from?

In any event, you have done what modern, liberal theologians do, remove the total omnipotence of god, because it is inconvenient.

God can not eliminate
evil because evil serves a purpose that god can not thwart.

I tend not to argue much with liberal theology, because it doesn't really do me much harm, truth be told.

not be a
good being, let alone loving. Such a being would be quite immoral and unethical. The problem for ALL Christians (and Muslims) is that they posit

just such

a being as being worthy of undying devotion and worship.

Not *all* Christians and Muslims.

Well, not everyone that calls themselves a Christian or Muslim believes it, that is true. Many people want to ally themselves with an organized
religion, for whatever reason, without feeling it necessary to follow the orthodoxy, to some degree. To the extent that they reject the orthodoxy, they
move away from the center of the bullseye, so to speak. It seems to be orthodox religion that has the most negative impact on the world.

I share SheBlewHim's disgust at any system of thought, like Christianity, that posits such a being.

I think your error, like Sheblue's error, is in generalizing (or implying) that all Christians believe the same thing. They don't. Of course, after

the

Council of Nicea (around A.D. 300) Christians were more alike than ever. And those Christians in power since those times have systematically tried to

wipe out

disagreement about scripture ever since. So, my idea of original sin is The Council Of Nicea.

That is true, though I had to escape a religious fundamentalist background to learn it. Christianity now is even very different from Christianity one or
two hundred years ago. For the most part. Unfortunately, there is a core of noisy fundies that really ***** off a lot of people.

To believe that such a heinous being is worthy of
worship and praise is to invert morality in the most vicious vile manner possible.

I don't believe in such a heinous being. That's why I am not angry with God. Sure, this world seems unjust. But my faith tells me that the injustice

rests at

the feet of humans, not God.

It is one thing to note that human beings do a lot of terrible things to each other, but quite another to note that the universe itself contains many
instances of pain and/or "evil" that have nothing to do with humans. For example, I don't think humans can or should be blamed for things like childhood
cancer, animal pain and suffering, etc.

Blame requires power to control or cause, and humans just don't have any control or much effect on most of that
kind of "evil", in my book.

--
***Free Your Mind***

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[ Followup-To: alt.bible ]

I share SheBlewHim's disgust at any system of thought, like Christianity,
that posits such a being. To believe that such a heinous being is worthy
of
worship and praise is to invert morality in the most vicious vile manner
possible.

It's perfectly all right to be disgusted by the evil crimes of this
world, but God the light is not to be blamed for the crime that
happens in the dark of night.

why not eric,