Like I said elsewhere this post is over 5,000 words long....32k.
I simply have not the time to read through it.....with all the commitments I
have to other NGs, or my jobs of work.
Keep it reasonable and concise and I can handle it. {;o;}
Jeff...

"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5jefl19404p4urqinn7jelfrm4gmii9h95@4ax.com...

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:30:42 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <nospamatall@add.com> spake thusly:


As usual, you have ducked out after my response, which is
below and I am resending. I don't expect an answer this
time either. You'll just wait a while until you figure
everyone forgot about it and then post THE EXACT SAME
STUFF to me again, just as you did more than once before.

Here it is again...

I would humbly suggest that it would be wise to read all of
this message (and not by skimming through it at the speed
of light) before hitting your reply button, since you will
end up backing up and changing your responses if you don't.
I will address your points before the message is done and if
you respond, I would appreciate it if you address mine and
don't skip any of them, ignoring them and then making the
same claims that have already been disproved, or throw
insults at me, as is typical of when end timers respond, if
they do at all. That's not a statement of guilt on your
part, personally. It's just a statement of what normally
happens and frankly, I'm tired of wasting my time writing
this stuff down, to have it ignored, or just to have insults
hurled at me, when someone doesn't like it that I showed
their understanding to be in error. (:

Also, I don't use the term, "end timers" as an insult. It
simply means those who believe in a future return of Christ
and buy into all of this "end times" stuff that's being
taught today, which as I have proved more than once, is not
what the ancient church believed and is a new teaching, that
began to be popular in the early 1800's.

Also, how many times will you guys keep quoting this part of
the Scriptures, Revelation 20 and ignore the response as you
all do, each and every time, that proves beyond any doubt,
that it is not speaking of Christ reigning on Earth? This
is a dishonest approach. Not one of you is able to refute
what I have shown here, many, many times and all I get in
response, if I get a response, is insults and then later,
after a while, you guys quote the same passages to me again
as your supposed proof and pretend that they have never been
addressed by me before! (:

Anyway, on with my response...

The saints have not taken over the World
as promised by Christ either.

You are both out in left field. You both focus
on the physical.

Because it will be a physical rule on the earth.

That's your claim.

Rev. 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed
us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and
nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on
the earth."
See that unbelieving one...."we shall reign on the earth"

[Of course not people like you Dave, as you adamantly refuse to remember
Christ as he has commanded in the breaking of Bread at the last supper.]

I am not speaking of reigning on Earth. I am speaking
of a physical ruling on Earth. There is a difference.
Saints reign in the Kingdom of God, spiritually, right now,
on Earth, as the Bible teaches.

4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto
them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of
Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or
in
their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were
finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such
the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of
his
prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters
of
the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of
whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of
the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of
heaven, and devoured them. "

Gog and MaGog is a person and place that existed
back then. I believe waiting for them now, is just as
foolish as waiting for a third temple, when Christ's words
were fulfilled to the letter regarding the temple, in 70 AD.

Revelation 20:3-8 is the ONLY basis for this
"thousand year reign of Christ on Earth" argument.
That is important to remember, since, if it can be
shown that the text is not saying that, you MUST,
MUST give up that belief, or admit to believing in
something the Bible doesn't teach.

The Scripture does not say one word about Jesus Christ
physically ruling on Earth, nor about Him ruling at all
for a period of 1,000 years. There is not one Scripture
that says that and I will demonstrate that for you further
down in this message.

And as for, "an end to the 1,000 years", that 1,000 years
is not literal, nor can it be, because that would be to say
that Christ would have a temporary reign.

You are preaching that Christ will reign for 1,000 years
and that He will then be booted off His throne, so that
Satan can run around and wreak havoc for a while.
You claim you don't preach that, but when your belief
is examined, it is found that you do preach exactly that.

Now before you object, you cannot say that Jesus has
a 1,000 year reign that will end AND say that His reign
is forever, which means no end. Those are contradictory
statements and nothing will get around that! :)

I.e., You can't have it both ways. The Scripture is clear
that Christ's reign is eternal.

Luke 1:31-33

31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb,
and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son
of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him
the throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;
and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Now even if one believes this to be a physical reign,
THERE IS NO WAY that He could reign for 1,000 years
and then come back again later and reign forever.
There is NO BREAK in His reign. So there is no possible
"1,000 year reign of Christ". It simply can't happen.
To believe that, is to pit Scripture against itself.
Therefore, you must be misunderstanding Scripture
and I will prove that below and will prove that the end
timers are reading things into Scripture that aren't there.

So the question becomes, WHEN did/does Christ's reign
begin? I will address that issue here, further down.

Daniel 2:44 & 7:13-4 clearly shows Christ receiving
His reign, when HE ASCENDED (as I will demonstrate
later in this message) and the Bible (Luke 1:31-33)
teaches that Christ's reign is forever. Thus, the passage
above is NOT speaking about how long CHRIST reigned,
but how long the souls mentioned reign WITH HIM.

Now here's the thing to remember... If I show that the
passage is not speaking of when Christ begins His reign
and rather, is speaking of when the saints begin to reign
with Him, that means that Christ was already reigning when
the saints began to reign with Him, does it not? That's a
rhetorical question. :)

Revelation 20:1-8

1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit and a great
chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a
thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut
him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should
deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years
should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed
a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls
of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped
the beast, neither his image, neither had received his
mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now notice here, that this (v4) is being seen in Heaven.

John saw THE SOULS of them. Not the bodies.

It does not address when Christ began to reign, nor
for how long Christ reigns, but rather, only the reign
of the beheaded, WITH CHRIST.

If I say that I reigned with King Joey for one year,
does that mean that King Joey only reigned one year?

Better yet, if a woman marries a king who has held
the throne since he was 20 years old and that king
is now 40 years old when they marry and she reigned
with him for 40 years, until he died, does that mean
that her husband the king only reigned for 40 years,
or that SHE reigned WITH him for 40 years?

No, it certainly does not mean that Christ began to reign
at that point. It only discusses when the beheaded began
to reign WITH HIM.

3) The Bible does not say that Christ reigns for a thousand
years. What it actually says, is...

"...and I saw the souls of *them* that were beheaded for
the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God... and *they*
lived and reigned *with* Christ a thousand years."

Note that it talks about how long those who were beheaded
reigned with Christ and not how long Christ reigned. Since
when is Christ's reign temporary?

They reigned WITH CHRIST for a thousand years. It does
not say, "Christ reigned for a thousand years".

It does not mention Christ coming down to Earth.
Thus, it does not speak of a 2nd Coming..

No resurrection is mentioned. John saw THE SOULS
of them, not the bodies.

Thus, Christ is ALREADY REIGNING in v4. It is discussing
when the souls of the beheaded reigned WITH HIM.

Now, as to WHEN He reigns, what does Daniel say,
when discussing the four empires (and does not
mention any break)? Again, Daniel is discussing the
four empires and there is no break of any of them
taught anywhere in Daniel...

"And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS shall the
God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never
be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to
other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume
all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."
- Daniel 2:44

Thus, His reign would be set up IN THE DAYS OF THESE
KINGS" and not thousands of years after that. Thus, His
reign had to be set up during THOSE DAYS.

Also note WHEN He takes His throne. Is it when He descends,
or when He ascends?

Ancient of Days = God the Father
Son of Man = Jesus Christ

Daniel 7:13-14

13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and
came *_TO_* to the Ancient of days, and they brought
him near before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and
a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages,
should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which
shall not be destroyed.

Note that He received His Kingdom when He ASCENDED.
He was not waiting to one day receive it.

The Father (Ancient of Days) is in Heaven and it says that
Christ came *_TO_* the Ancient of Days and received
His dominion and glory, etc. and it says that His dominion
*IS* an everlasting dominion, thus proving that it is a
present tense statement at the time of His ascension.

We should also take a look at Stephen's response,
when they were stoning him...

Acts 7:55-56

55) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up
steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and
Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the
Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

How much we miss, when reading only what the end times
teachers want us to see! (:

To continue...

5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
thousand years were finished. This is the first
resurrection.

Note that it says that the rest of the dead did not live
again until the thousand years were finished. That
means that the ones John mentioned above, have
already been resurrected. So now the question is,
was their resurrection physical? According to what
John said, no, it wasn't. John said he saw THE SOULS
of them, not the bodies.

When we read what Paul wrote, we can see how this jives...

1 Corinthians 15:35-37,42-46

35) But someone will say, How are the dead
raised up, and with what body do they come?
36) Foolish one! What you sow is not made
alive unless it dies.
37) And what you sow, you do not sow the
body that is going to be, but a bare grain
(perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
42) So also the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption, it is raised in
incorruption;
43) it is sown in dishonor, it is raised
in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is
raised in power;
44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised
a spiritual body. There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, "The first man,
Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam
was a life-giving Spirit.
46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural;
afterward the spiritual.

It is sown mortal, it is raised spiritual, not physical
again.


6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first
resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall
reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan
shall be loosed out of his prison,

Now John shifts gears and speaks of the Earth. How do we
know that? Simple. Where was his prison? It wasn't in
Heaven, was it? No.

Read the first three verses in this quote. The angel "came
down from Heaven" and threw him into the pit. Thus, Satan's
prison is below, not above.


8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in
the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather
them together to battle: the number of whom is as the
sand of the sea.

Thus it is logical that this passage deals with what Satan
is doing on Earth. That does not mean that Christ is on
Earth and frankly, this would have Satan booting Christ off
of an earthly throne, in order to wreak havoc on the Earth.

We also need to see, that the word translated as "earth"
there, is "ge" and denotes a region, not the planet. That
Greek word for that would be, "kosmos" and John knew
the difference between the words.

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that
cometh into the world (kosmos)." - John 1:9

Note also that it says, "the four quarters of the earth".
The globe does not have four quarters. However,
a region of land might.

This speaks of the are in question, which was Jerusalem
and surrounding Judea. Look at what Jesus said...

"Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:"
- Matthew 24:16

Luke 21:20-22

20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;
and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and
let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things
which are written may be fulfilled.

Note: Jerusalem... Judea... That ALL THINGS WRITTEN
may be FULFILLED.

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled."
- Matthew 24:34

All things fulfilled. All the things about His return in
judgment must be fulfilled in these events.

I also do not believe that the 1,000 years are literal.

The term "thousand" is always used symbolically,
when dealing with time and large numbers of people or
things, in the Scriptures. Reference the following
examples...

People and things:

Job 9:3; Psalm 50:10; Ecc 7:28

Time and generations:

Deut 7:9; 1 Chron 16:15; Psalm 90:4


Now what is clear here, is that I have proved the following:

1) The passages do not speak of Christ reigning for
1,000 years. They speak of the souls of the beheaded
reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.

2) The passages say nothing of Christ coming to Earth.

3) Christ's reign began when He ascended, not in some
future descent.

4) Christ does not have a temporary reign.

5) The term "thousand" is used symbolically often
in Scripture.

That's because you do not seek the things
of God, but rather, a way to bring God down to Earth,

.so that you can make Him just like you. There is
.nothing in the Bible about Christ ruling from Earth.

NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE!

You don't need to look far.
Luke 1 :31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a
son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom
there shall be no end. "

David's throne was in Jerusalem and that is where Christ will rule from.
Micah 4: 4 "for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD
from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar
off;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither
shall
they learn war any more."
The nations are still learning war today......but they won't when the Law
'goes forth from Zion'.


Rev 11:15 "When the seventh angel blew his trumpet, there were loud voices
in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of
our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule forever and ever."
Thus, this is a physical reign with physical consequences.

That again, is a claim. But the fact is, it doesn't say
anything about Christ coming to Earth, to make that
happen. Read what the Scriptures say...

Psalm 66:5-7

5) Come and see the works of God: he is terrible in his
doing toward the children of men.
6) He turned the sea into dry land: they went through
the flood on foot: there did we rejoice in him.
7) He ruleth by his power forever; his eyes behold the
nations: let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah.

Now according to you, God is a liar. He has never ruled
the nations. Yet the Scripture is clear that He has been.

Gee, how is this possible, when God had not been doing
it from Earth? According to you, He must be on Earth to
rule the nations, yet the Scripture is clear. Here He is,
ruling the nations already.

The difference is not whether or not God can rule. The
difference is that this rule is handed to Christ and Christ
does not need to come to Earth, to rule the nations.

Isaiah 11:4 "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove
with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with
the
rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the
wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the
girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down
with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
and
a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down
together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned
child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth
shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
This will be a world-wide occurrence, for it has certainly not happened
yet, but it surely will do.

"6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art
my
Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and
the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces
like a potter's vessel.
This is also yet to be.

Christ will rule the world with an iron fist with the help of the redeemed
saints.
Rev. 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to
him
will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter
shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

Jeff...
Still to come ..............
Psalms 149:5 "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon
their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged
sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his
saints. Praise ye the LORD."

Amen.

I am not going to attempt to write a book here. You guys
constantly try to overburden me with a large number of
passages, so that you can claim if I don't address each
and every one, that I am running away from them. I'm sorry,
that won't work this time.

I will address a couple of them and will address the rest of
them, by quoting something from Isaiah and Revelation, to
show that you are taking symbolic hyperbole and trying to
make it literal and that your belief has the Scriptures
contradicting themselves.

Here are two passages that end timers use, to try to claim
that the Kingdom is physical...

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old
man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a
hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old
shall be accursed." - Isaiah 65:20

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and
there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things
are passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Read them and tell me, what will happen? If you believe
that people are resurrected and come back to Earth to
live forever physically, you must throw out the book of
Isaiah as a book of lies.

You see, Isaiah says that a child will die 100 years old.
Revelation says that there will be no more death.

So which is it? Will children die 100 years old? Or will
there be no more physical death? Or is it possible that
it is symbolic and that the "no more death" is a spiritual
statement that deals with the fact that there will be no
more "sleep", but instant resurrection to be with Christ
in Heaven, since that's where He reigns from and since
Scripture says nothing of Him physically being on Earth?


Now, as for your "rod of iron" passages that you think prove
beyond any doubt that Christ will reign physically from
Earth, it doesn't say that and the question to address is;
What is that, "rod of iron"?

Some of the following is a repeat of what is above,
but there is also new information as well and I will
address the "rod of iron" claim directly.

The end timers quote the following passage as proof
that Christ would physically rule Earth, from Earth.

Psalm 2:8-9

8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen
for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts
of the earth for thy possession.
9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's
vessel.

They ask, "Where is He, ruling with a rod of iron?".

They also quote the following passage...

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule
all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was
caught up unto God, and to his throne." - Rev 12:5

So where is He doing that, they demand to know?

Well, first of all, look at the passage above.

It says that the child was caught *UP* to His throne.
So where is His throne? IN HEAVEN and NOT on Earth!
Yet you claim that this passage proves that He will rule
from Earth. And what does it actually say? THE OPPOSITE!

Now reread Daniel and what he says about this. He addresses
the WHEN of Christ's reign and WHEN IT BEGINS...

Now, as to WHEN He reigns, what does Daniel say,
when discussing the four empires (and does not
mention any break)?

"And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be
destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other
people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all
these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever."
- Daniel 2:44

Thus, His reign would be set up IN THE DAYS OF
THESE KINGS" and not thousands of years after that.

And Christ's reign IS eternal!

Luke 1:31-33

31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb,
and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son
of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him
the throne of his father David:
33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;
and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Also note WHEN He takes His throne. Is it when
He descends to Earth, as they believe, or when
He ascends to Heaven? What does Daniel say?

Ancient of Days = God the Father
Son of Man = Jesus Christ

Daniel 7:13-14

13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like
the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,
and came *_TO_* to the Ancient of days, and they
brought him near before him.
14) And there was given him dominion, and glory,
and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages,
should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting
dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom
that which shall not be destroyed.

Note that He received His Kingdom when He ASCENDED.
He was not waiting to one day receive it. Take a look.

The Father (Ancient of Days) is in Heaven and it says
that He came *_TO_* the Ancient of Days and received
His dominion and glory, etc. and it says that His
dominion *IS* an everlasting dominion, thus proving
that it is a present tense statement at the time of
His ascension and that it is EVERLASTING. It is
NOT some 1,000 year reign. You can't have it both
ways. It can't be forever and end, even if temporarily
since it says that it is "everlasting" at the time He
receives it, which IS WHEN HE ASCENDED.

The Scripture IS CLEAR! He received His Kingdom
WHEN HE ASCENDED and His reign is FOREVER!

We should also take a look at Stephen's response,
when they were stoning him...

Acts 7:55-56

55) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up
steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God,
and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened,
and the Son of man standing on the right hand
of God.

Ah, how much we miss in our readings, huh?... :)

Anyway, to get back to the "rod of iron" statements,
the end times teachings that these people get from
books and TV shows and at church, never shows
them the following passages, which are directly
related, since Isaiah spoke of this also.

"But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his
mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he
slay the wicked." - Isaiah 11:4

Note: He will smite the Earth with the rod of...

*_HIS MOUTH_*

And He would slay the wicked with...

*THE BREATH OF HIS LIPS*


It is HIS WORDS that defeat them!

See also, in Revelation, the following, considering
that even the end timers know about that (they just
don't apply it here when they teach you these things
on these TV shows and in books, etc., because it
interferes with their doctrines)...

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with
it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them
with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of
the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." - Rev 19:15

Note: OUT OF HIS MOUTH goes a sharp sword.

Note: WITH IT He smites the nations.

And those who listen to these teachings do not
study their Bibles. They say they are and may even
think they are, but in reality, it is an ignorance of
the Old Testament and a lack of careful consideration
of the texts, even in the NT, that accounts for these
errors in the doctrines that they believe in. They
look at the verse and even just a part of a verse that
they are shown and say, "Yup, there it is right there!"
but they don't REALLY EXAMINE the Bible, to see
the FULL TEACHING OF THE WHOLE BIBLE on
these various aspects of these doctrines.

So while the end timers think they have some proof,
the "rod of iron" and "the sword" is the word of God.

Let's look at it again, in question and answer form...

Q) WHAT IS THE ROD OF IRON?

A) THE WORD OF GOD!

That is what the Bible says and that is what the Bible
teaches us. To see this further expressed...

Hebrews 4:12-13

12) For the Word of God is living and powerful and
sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to
the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the
joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts
and intents of the heart.
13) Neither is there any creature that is not manifest
in His sight, but all things are naked and opened to
the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

So please do not respond, by throwing more passages
that you think prove a physical reign of Christ on Earth.
Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage that you had and
it has been dealt with and frankly, this practice of the end
timers of throwing more passages out, instead of admitting
that the ones they threw out already have been dealt with
and actually show the opposite of what they claim, is
dishonest and it does nothing but attempt to pit Scripture
against Scripture.

Think about it. What you end up doing, is trying to prove
the passages that I proved show Christ's reign beginning at
His ascension and His reign being from Heaven wrong, with
more passages. Thus you end up using the Bible, to argue
against the Bible. (:

And with that, unless you are willing to discuss this
further intelligently, by acknowledging the points that
I have made here (really, that Scripture has made),
then I am not interested in any further discussion
with you. If you think I have misunderstood the passages,
then show me how and why I have, in your own words, by
dealing with the same passages and not by throwing out
other passages. I added some passages, but note that
I FIRST DEALT WITH YOURS.

--

Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ

It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give you as a Light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.
- Israel 49:6