| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
24 May 2007 10:12:54 AM |
| Object: |
A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
James White has this article which explains the Holy Trinity quite
well from a Biblical perspective and also explains the cults that deny
this Biblical truth. Dr. White is the head of Alpha And Omega
Ministries which can be found online at http://www.aomin.org/
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
A Brief Definition of the Trinity
by James White
I know that one of the most oft-repeated questions I have dealt with
is, "How does one explain, or even understand, the doctrine of the
Trinity?" Indeed, few topics are made such a football by various
groups that, normally, claim to be the "only" real religion, and who
prey upon Christians as "convert fodder." Be that as it may, when the
Christian is faced with a question regarding the Trinity, how might it
best be explained?
For me, I know that simplifying the doctrine to its most basic
elements has been very important and very useful. When we reduce the
discussion to the three clear Biblical teachings that underlie the
Trinity, we can move our discussion from the abstract to the concrete
Biblical data, and can help those involved in false religions to
recognize which of the Biblical teachings it is denying.
We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the
Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be
very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is
one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of
God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the
Son, and the Spirit.
It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and
"person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there
are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person.
So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between
being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we
also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we
speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the
being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that
there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both
"what" and "who" when we talk about a person.
The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal
beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to
have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats
cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the
common good of "catkind." Hence, we are saying that there is one
eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three
persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three whos.
NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the
Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to
misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the
Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!
The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is
the Trinity are as follows:
1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutible.
2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the
Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified
with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as
Persons.
3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully
deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity
of the Holy Spirit.
One could possibly represent this as follows:
The three sides of the triangle represent the three Biblical
doctrines, as labeled. When one denies any of these three teachings,
the other two sides point to the result. Hence, if one denies that
there are Three Persons, one is left with the two sides of Full
Equality and One God, resulting in the "Oneness" teaching of the
United Pentecostal Church and others. If one denies Fully Equality,
one is left with Three Persons and One God, resulting in
"subordinationism" as seen in Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way
International, etc. (though to be perfectly accurate the Witnesses
deny all three of the sides in some way---they deny Full Equality
(i.e., Jesus is Michael the Archangel), Three Persons (the Holy Spirit
is an impersonal, active "force" like electricity) and One God (they
say Jesus is "a god"---a lesser divinity than Yahweh; hence they are
in reality not monotheists but henotheists). And, if one denies One
God, one is left with polytheism, the belief in many gods, as seen
clearly in the Mormon Church, the most polytheistic religion I have
encountered.
Hopefully these brief thoughts will be of help to you as you "grow in
the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
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| User: "Jeckyl" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
24 May 2007 06:31:43 PM |
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<saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:1180019574.497355.136790@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
So are you saying that humankind is a being, and individual people are
persons ??
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| User: "Pastor Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
24 May 2007 09:18:32 PM |
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spake thusly and wrote:
A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James White
Does the accursed false-christian scum James White not know that
the trinity was defined by its inventor before he was born?
NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol. 22 Page 477, "The term
"trinity" was originated by Tertullain, Roman Catholic Church
father."
CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church
always baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development
of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century."
The protestants worship the same three headed idol from Rome that
the Catholics do. All trinitarians are daughters of the RCC.
The false church is following a manmade teaching. They have to go
to "denominal opinions of men" that originated in the 2nd and 3rd
century to explain and discuss their beliefs. It is also
interesting that the same bunch at Rome that dreamed up the
trinity, also ushered in the dark ages by killing people for
possessing Bibles. It is important to realize that the Catholic
Church is the "Great *****" in the book of Rev. and the "mother
of harlots" (the harlots being the denominations that retain the
trinity heresy). The harlot wants relationship with man, but
will not "take the man's name" and will not forsake her
worldly loves for her husband. Just as the harlot churches will
not use Jesus name in baptism, and will not forsake the sins of
the world.
Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Here I will show some of the apostles writing that exposes
certain of the false doctrines taught by the harlot churches.:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The harlot trinity churches use the titles of their 3 gods if
they even baptise at all. They ignore Matt 28:19 in which Jesus
said to use a "name," and they just "parrot" the command instead
of obeying it.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be
preached in his NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments
of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
The harlot trinity church doesn't believe that the fulness is in
Jesus, they don't believe that "ye are complete in him", they
teach the tradition of men from the 2nd and 3rd century.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in HIM, which is the head of
all principality and power: Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation
in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given
among men, whereby we must be saved. Also Acts 8:16, 10:48,
10:43, 19:5, Col 3:17
Also here are some historical references showing where tradition
replaced apostolic truth.:
ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA, 11th Ed. Vol. 3 Page 365-366, "The
baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to
the words Father, Son, and Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in
the 2nd Century." Vol. 3 Page 82 "Everywhere in the oldest
sources it states that baptism took place in the Name of Jesus
Christ."
CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church
always baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development
of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century."
HASTINGS ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Vol. 2 pages 377-378-389, "The
Christian baptism was administered using the Name of Jesus. The
use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in
the early church history, baptism was always in the Name of the
Lord Jesus, until the time of Justin Martyr when the trinity
formula was used." Hastings also said in Vol. 2 Page 377,
commenting on Acts 2:38, "NAME was an ancient synonym for person.
Payment was always made in the name of some person referring to
ownership. Therefore one being baptized in Jesus Name became his
personal property." "Ye are Christ's." I Cor. 3:23.
NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol. 22 Page 477, "The term
"trinity" was originated by Tertullain, Roman Catholic Church
father."
TYNDALE NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARIES: "... the true explanation why
the early church did not at once administer baptism in the
threefold name is that the words of Mat 28:19 were not meant as a
baptismal formula. [Jesus] was not giving instructions about the
actual words to be used in the service of baptism, but, as has
already been suggested, was indicating that the baptized person
would by baptism pass into the possession of the Father, the Son,
and the Holy Ghost."
THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS, James Hastings, p.384,
"there is no evidence [in early church history] for the use of
the triune name."
Pastor Steve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
http://tinyurl.com/mxu7o for trinity is antichrist sermon
"That's factual; but not true."- deceiver Robert Sowle 2007
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 05:42:40 AM |
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"Pastor Steve Winter" <steve-.NO--SPAM@-prime.org> wrote in message
news:bohc535ee3194e4kia76vrml6bvuq4kbsl@4ax.com...
saints@nettally.com spake thusly and wrote:
A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James White
Does the accursed false-christian scum James White not know that
the trinity was defined by its inventor before he was born?
NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol. 22 Page 477, "The term
"trinity" was originated by Tertullain, Roman Catholic Church
father."
The word was first used in early Church history based upon Biblical
teachings.
CANNEY ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION, Page 53 -- "The early church
always baptized in the Name of Lord Jesus until the development
of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century."
The protestants worship the same three headed idol from Rome that
the Catholics do. All trinitarians are daughters of the RCC.
The false church is following a manmade teaching. They have to go
to "denominal opinions of men" that originated in the 2nd and 3rd
century to explain and discuss their beliefs. It is also
interesting that the same bunch at Rome that dreamed up the
trinity, also ushered in the dark ages by killing people for
possessing Bibles. It is important to realize that the Catholic
Church is the "Great *****" in the book of Rev. and the "mother
of harlots" (the harlots being the denominations that retain the
trinity heresy). The harlot wants relationship with man, but
will not "take the man's name" and will not forsake her
worldly loves for her husband. Just as the harlot churches will
not use Jesus name in baptism, and will not forsake the sins of
the world.
In all the years you have feebly attempted to deny Biblical teachings you
never have been able to refute the Holy Scriptures themselves. And they are
clear in teaching the Holy Trinity. The answers to the following questions
give evidence that when taken in totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of
the Trinity:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1, 20:28)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!
Or the one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit are all Jehovah God. Steve Winter, since the Bible clearly calls the
Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit are ALL Jehovah God then to deny the
Holy Trinity is to deny the Holy Scriptures.
2. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
Or God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the dead.
Steve Winter, ONLY God could raise Jesus from the dead and since the Bible
teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the
dead then to deny the Holy Trinity is to deny the Holy Scriptures.
3. Who saves man?
a. Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)? Yes!
Or God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
b. Who JUSTIFIES man?
The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
Or God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.
c. Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
Or God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
d. Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
Or God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against man for
his sins?
BIBLICAL RESULT: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Though some exalt human reason against the doctrine of the Trinity, saying
that it is "unreasonable," people who submit their minds to God's Word must
conclude that it is unreasonable NOT to believe in it. Steve Winter, you
have shown yourself to be unreasonable and unsound. You only confirm this by
rejecting Biblical teachings and injecting your own man-made heresies. Your
ultimate destination is clear unless you repent of your sinful nature and
abandon your heretical and wicked ways. I continue to pray for you (Matt.
5:45).
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
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| User: "William Price" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 06:34:02 PM |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods. You have God the Father, who is over God the
Son, and both are using God the Holy Spirit. Three gods, not one.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also
believe, and tremble.
(James 2:19)
But, the trinitarians do not believe in one God. They do believe in
three. Ask the definition of the trinity, and you get one God in three
persons.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit
and in truth.
(John 4:24)
So, if God is three persons, did Jesus lie when He said God was a
Spirit? I do not think so. Trinitarianism is a lie from Hell.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
(John 14:9)
Jesus told Phillip that when he was looking at Jesus, He was seeing
the Father. Hmm, according to trinity paganism, Jesus lied. No wonder
people are leaving such churches in droves to find One God Apostolic
truth.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the
world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will
not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
(John 14:16-18)
Wow! Jesus said that the Comforter would come to the disciples, and
then said He was the one who would come. But, according to
trinitarianism, Jesus must have lied here as well.
Anyone who promotes trinitarianism is promoting pagan blasphemy
against the Bible as well as the God of the Bible.
"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older
trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational
philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three
hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. ...
This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine trinity ... can be
found in all the ancient [pagan] religions" (French Nouveau
Dictionnaire Universel [New Universal Dictionary], Vol. 2, p. 1467).
Now, with scriptural and historical evidence against it, only a true
pagan would ever consider defending the trinity doctrine. Only pagans
believe paganism. So, Carl, I ask. Are you a pagan, or are you willing
to admit the trinity is a demonic pagan false deith, and turn to the
One God of the Bible?
In the name of Jesus Christ,
Bro. William Price
Apostolic Berean Ministries of Jesus Christ
http://www.acts238berean.com
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 10:12:31 PM |
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"William Price" <acts238b@acts238berean.com> wrote in message
news:nqre539hv71qgjej3u8npcfgh5j8hukj3g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods.
I never did that. Very disingenuous of you to claim that I did. Is honesty a
weak point of yours? However I did and do point out that the Bible clearly
teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit are ALL Jehovah God.
Something you fail to be able to refute. Why? The Bible cannot be refuted.
But, the trinitarians do not believe in one God.
Another intentional misrepresentation on your part and therefore proof that
you base your conclusion on fauly premises. Therefore your conclusion is
equally as faulty. Since you choose to do so intentionally, this shows you
to be dishonest. God abhors dishonesty. So why do you choose to engage in
something God abhors.
Again, I turn to scripture alone (sola scriptura) to learn the truth of the
Holy Trinity.
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1, 20:28)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!
Or the one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit are all Jehovah God. William, it's unarguable that the Bible teaches
the Holy Trinity when it clearly calls the Father, the Son AND the Holy
Spirit ALL Jehovah God. Not three gods, but THE ONE AND ONLY GOD! Your
feeble attempts to misrepresent what the Holy Trinity is only shows your
desperation to avoid the truth and your penchance for dishonesty.
2. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
Or God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the dead.
William, this is clear that once again the Bible teaches the Holy Trinity as
being true and Godly doctrine.
3. Who saves man?
a. Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)? Yes!
Or God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
b. Who JUSTIFIES man?
The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
Or God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.
c. Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
Or God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
William, no one and no other god can save man. Only JEHOVAH GOD...the God of
Abraham and Isaac...the God of the Old & New Testament...can save man. And
the Bible clearly teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit ALL
can save man. Therefore the ONLY logical conclusion is that the Holy Trinity
is indeed Biblically-sound doctrine.
d. Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
Or God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against man for
his sins?
BIBLICAL RESULT: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
William, you may choose to hold on to your denials of this Biblical truth.
That's your perogative. But the Bible also teaches that those who teach
false doctrine as you do are false prophets. False teachers who, if they
don't repent, are to be treated as publicans. The Bible calls them heretics
and warns Christians to avoid them. You, sir, teach false doctrine and have
been exposed as using deeply dishonest means in the process. The fact that
you embrace the dishonesty reflects poorly upon what is probably within your
heart. I strongly suggest repenting of your dishonest methods and your false
doctrine. I will keep you in my prayers.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
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| User: "SongBookz" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 11:55:48 PM |
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"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:f388j2$fa9$1@news.utelfla.com...
"William Price" <acts238b@acts238berean.com> wrote in message
news:nqre539hv71qgjej3u8npcfgh5j8hukj3g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods.
I never did that. Very disingenuous of you to claim that I did. Is honesty
a weak point of yours? However I did and do point out that the Bible
clearly teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit are ALL
Jehovah God.
There would be little point in reading further since the writer begins
ignorant in that there is no "Jehovah God - what begins in ignorane has
little chance of going far.
The Creator's Name is (transliterated letters) "YHWH" pronounced (most
scholars agree) "Yahweh." "Jehovah" is derived from the Hebrew letters
"YHWH" modified to the Latin "IHVH" (With the "Y/I" replaced with a "J" -
the "J" did mot exist in the English language until the 1500s AD) combined
with the (relatively modern) vowel points from "Adonai."
While we're on the subject, while there are many Jesuses, "Jesus" was not
the name of the Son. His name was Yahoshua or Y'shua (same name with the
spelling changing over the years. Again, the "J" did not exist until the
1500s AD. In English, His name was "Joshua," He bore the same name as
Moses' successor - indeed, at one point, the KJV confuses them and calls
Joshua, "Jesus." Thus we have Joshua son of Nun and Joshua the Son of God.
As to the Trinity, both for and against positions can find plenty of
scriptures to support their positions. The Bible does not prove nor does it
disprove either belief. Therefore, to use it as some sort of test of
"Christian" is unscriptural. It is similiar to the "how many angels will
fit on the head of a pin" disagreement that caused so much disconcertion in
the Middle Ages. What the Bible does not make clear will perhaps be made
clear to us in the life to come. Suffice it to say, Trinity or not, the
nature of God is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. Instead we
should be more careful with what the Bible does make clear - such as the 187
times it mentions our responsibility to care for the poor, widowed and
orphaned, or about our responsibility to treat our neighbors as we'd like to
be treated, or ... you get the point.
As to the Trinity itself, I have my suspicions...but they are only that.
There is no passage that tells us specifically. I personally find it
suspicious that most pagan deities were a part of a trinity - such as
Dagon - Asherah - Baal or any of the millions of trinities in Hinduism.
Considering the fact that the Catholic Chuch is a convulated blend of
paganism and scripture and that the Catholic Church gave us the Trinity (and
the Canon for that matter) - it renders the Doctrine of the Trinity
suspicious to say the least, but again, one cannot conclusively prove either
position with "sola scripture" (a form of idolatry in itself).
Thus, I cannot say I am Trinitarian, nor can I say I am Oneness (or
whatever), all I can say is I am too ignorant to know fully the nature of
the Creator.
Terrell
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| User: "jondandino" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
26 May 2007 12:22:17 PM |
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If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by trying to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he invents a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE." This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Unitarians are insisting on the fact that the BIBLE says there is Only one
God and not three.
Of course they are right. This is what the Bible does say: Deut 6:4.
What they do not realise, overlook or ignore is that the Oneness of God is
through unity and not number.
In Deut 6:4 "One" God ="Echad" does indeed mean "one" but it is a oneness
that is produced by unity. In Genesis 2:23-24 Adam and Eve were ONE (Echad)
flesh but two distinct individuals.
John 17:22 "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be
one as we are one:"
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you
before the world began." John 17:5 "the word was with God and the word was
God" John 1.1
So we can see from the above that the Father was definitely not the Son and
the Son was definitely not the Father.
So, is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but
anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." Luk
12:10
If Jesus and the HOLY Spirit is the same person then how come the sin
against Him is forgiven but the sin against Him is not?
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me" John 14:6
I.e., The Father is not the Son. If you wish to get to the Father you will
have to go through the Son. The Son is not the Father He is the way to the
Father.
"For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." Eph 2:18
This is definitely one of those subjects where it can clearly be
demonstrated that no amount of hollering and shouting and pushing and
shoving, God cannot, will not fit into the cranium.
In the end we will be forced to settle for what God has revealed and not for
our own favorite idea!
"...one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" Eph 4:5
"SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote in message
news:c5P5i.4257$C96.2045@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:f388j2$fa9$1@news.utelfla.com...
"William Price" <acts238b@acts238berean.com> wrote in message
news:nqre539hv71qgjej3u8npcfgh5j8hukj3g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods.
I never did that. Very disingenuous of you to claim that I did. Is
honesty a weak point of yours? However I did and do point out that the
Bible clearly teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit are
ALL Jehovah God.
There would be little point in reading further since the writer begins
ignorant in that there is no "Jehovah God - what begins in ignorane has
little chance of going far.
The Creator's Name is (transliterated letters) "YHWH" pronounced (most
scholars agree) "Yahweh." "Jehovah" is derived from the Hebrew letters
"YHWH" modified to the Latin "IHVH" (With the "Y/I" replaced with a "J" -
the "J" did mot exist in the English language until the 1500s AD) combined
with the (relatively modern) vowel points from "Adonai."
While we're on the subject, while there are many Jesuses, "Jesus" was not
the name of the Son. His name was Yahoshua or Y'shua (same name with the
spelling changing over the years. Again, the "J" did not exist until the
1500s AD. In English, His name was "Joshua," He bore the same name as
Moses' successor - indeed, at one point, the KJV confuses them and calls
Joshua, "Jesus." Thus we have Joshua son of Nun and Joshua the Son of
God.
As to the Trinity, both for and against positions can find plenty of
scriptures to support their positions. The Bible does not prove nor does
it disprove either belief. Therefore, to use it as some sort of test of
"Christian" is unscriptural. It is similiar to the "how many angels will
fit on the head of a pin" disagreement that caused so much disconcertion
in the Middle Ages. What the Bible does not make clear will perhaps be
made clear to us in the life to come. Suffice it to say, Trinity or not,
the nature of God is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals. Instead we
should be more careful with what the Bible does make clear - such as the
187 times it mentions our responsibility to care for the poor, widowed and
orphaned, or about our responsibility to treat our neighbors as we'd like
to be treated, or ... you get the point.
As to the Trinity itself, I have my suspicions...but they are only that.
There is no passage that tells us specifically. I personally find it
suspicious that most pagan deities were a part of a trinity - such as
Dagon - Asherah - Baal or any of the millions of trinities in Hinduism.
Considering the fact that the Catholic Chuch is a convulated blend of
paganism and scripture and that the Catholic Church gave us the Trinity
(and the Canon for that matter) - it renders the Doctrine of the Trinity
suspicious to say the least, but again, one cannot conclusively prove
either position with "sola scripture" (a form of idolatry in itself).
Thus, I cannot say I am Trinitarian, nor can I say I am Oneness (or
whatever), all I can say is I am too ignorant to know fully the nature of
the Creator.
Terrell
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
26 May 2007 12:41:54 PM |
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On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:22:17 GMT, "jondandino"
<jcs135@blueyonder.co.uk> claimed:
If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by trying to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he invents a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE." This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.
However, 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 :)
Btw, just FYI and not meant as an attack, top posting
is considered rude and annoying in usenet. To make
one single comment, is fine in a top post. But to address
points, means that one must keep scrolling up and down,
to try to figure out which comment goes with which point.
--
Pastor Dave
People are so afraid to reject doctrine, that they just
don't give a damn what the Bible actually says! Sad!
.
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
26 May 2007 08:31:39 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k7sg53d6oeflpi641f8gmco57rfj7fc5gj@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:22:17 GMT, "jondandino"
<jcs135@blueyonder.co.uk> claimed:
If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a
false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by trying
to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he invents
a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is
not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE."
This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is
that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.
However, 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 :)
Btw, just FYI and not meant as an attack, top posting
is considered rude and annoying in usenet. To make
one single comment, is fine in a top post. But to address
points, means that one must keep scrolling up and down,
to try to figure out which comment goes with which point.
1*1*1=3
.
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| User: "Bible Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
26 May 2007 11:27:11 PM |
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|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:31:39 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k7sg53d6oeflpi641f8gmco57rfj7fc5gj@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:22:17 GMT, "jondandino"
<jcs135@blueyonder.co.uk> claimed:
If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a
false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by trying
to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he invents
a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is
not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE."
This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is
that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.
However, 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 :)
Btw, just FYI and not meant as an attack, top posting
is considered rude and annoying in usenet. To make
one single comment, is fine in a top post. But to address
points, means that one must keep scrolling up and down,
to try to figure out which comment goes with which point.
1*1*1=3
LOL! Try that calculation on a calculator.
.
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| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
27 May 2007 01:02:38 PM |
|
|
"Bible Bob" <biblebob@saintly.com> wrote in message
news:q32i535bifqsedcp7s709jiipdb37trhme@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:31:39 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k7sg53d6oeflpi641f8gmco57rfj7fc5gj@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:22:17 GMT, "jondandino"
<jcs135@blueyonder.co.uk> claimed:
If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a
false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be
a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by
trying
to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he
invents
a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is
not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE."
This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is
that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.
However, 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 :)
Btw, just FYI and not meant as an attack, top posting
is considered rude and annoying in usenet. To make
one single comment, is fine in a top post. But to address
points, means that one must keep scrolling up and down,
to try to figure out which comment goes with which point.
1*1*1=3
LOL! Try that calculation on a calculator.
I *was* attempting humor. Glad you got it. :-)
I debated whether to put a "?" beside it but that would have made it TOO
obvious.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "jondandino" |
|
| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
26 May 2007 01:13:56 PM |
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Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.>>
Selective reader!
Well, this was bound to happen, wasn't it?
"Pastor Dave" <noway@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k7sg53d6oeflpi641f8gmco57rfj7fc5gj@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 17:22:17 GMT, "jondandino"
<jcs135@blueyonder.co.uk> claimed:
If there is a false Christ there must be a true Christ. If there is a
false
god there must be a true God. If there is a false trinity there must be a
true. Satan is a fool but he is not stupid enough to waste time by trying
to
put people off something or someone that does not exist and so he invents
a
counterfeit for everything in Scripture including the "trinity."
Here is his unholy trinity = Rev 16:13
People of the flesh cannot understand Godhead - by the way "trinity" is
not
in the Bible, "Godhead" is.
Carnal man tries to fit God between his ears by summing Him up, "ONE."
This
is all he is capable of understanding. The problem with the equation is
that
God does not conform to the maths.
1 + 1 +1 = 1 not 3.
Actually, that's not true, because God gave us math
and 1+1+1=3, not 1.
However, 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 :)
Btw, just FYI and not meant as an attack, top posting
is considered rude and annoying in usenet. To make
one single comment, is fine in a top post. But to address
points, means that one must keep scrolling up and down,
to try to figure out which comment goes with which point.
--
Pastor Dave
People are so afraid to reject doctrine, that they just
don't give a damn what the Bible actually says! Sad!
.
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| User: "Jim" |
|
| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
27 May 2007 03:32:47 PM |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 23:55:48 -0500, "SongBookz" <NOSPAM@NOWAY.net> wrote:
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:f388j2$fa9$1@news.utelfla.com...
"William Price" <acts238b@acts238berean.com> wrote in message
news:nqre539hv71qgjej3u8npcfgh5j8hukj3g@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods.
I never did that. Very disingenuous of you to claim that I did. Is honesty
a weak point of yours? However I did and do point out that the Bible
clearly teaches that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit are ALL
Jehovah God.
There would be little point in reading further since the writer begins
ignorant in that there is no "Jehovah God - what begins in ignorane has
little chance of going far.
The Creator's Name is (transliterated letters) "YHWH" pronounced (most
scholars agree) "Yahweh." "Jehovah" is derived from the Hebrew letters
"YHWH" modified to the Latin "IHVH" (With the "Y/I" replaced with a "J" -
the "J" did mot exist in the English language until the 1500s AD) combined
with the (relatively modern) vowel points from "Adonai."
While we're on the subject, while there are many Jesuses, "Jesus" was not
the name of the Son. His name was Yahoshua or Y'shua (same name with the
spelling changing over the years. Again, the "J" did not exist until the
1500s AD. In English, His name was "Joshua," He bore the same name as
Moses' successor - indeed, at one point, the KJV confuses them and calls
Joshua, "Jesus." Thus we have Joshua son of Nun and Joshua the Son of God.
As to the Trinity, both for and against positions can find plenty of
scriptures to support their positions.
The Bible does not prove nor does it
disprove either belief.
That is false - the Bible proves there is only one person in the Godhead - and
that is the person of Jesus Christ.
Col 1:19 (KJV) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 2:9 (KJV) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
.
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| User: "John Fraser" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 08:18:16 PM |
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Good evening William;
Could you do me a favour and give a synopsis of John 17?
Cheers,
John
.
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| User: "Rod" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 09:17:48 PM |
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William Price wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2007 06:42:40 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote
lies and spiritual perversion when he tried to preent:
<yes, snipped for the sake of truth>
Carl, if the Bible says only one God, why do you divide this one God
into three separate gods. You have God the Father, who is over God the
Son, and both are using God the Holy Spirit. Three gods, not one.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
As scripture says, these three are one, and this is the WORD of God,
so are you telling me that God is a liar ?
1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit,
and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also
believe, and tremble.
(James 2:19)
But, the trinitarians do not believe in one God.
You are wrong, and 1 John 5:7 says so. Deal with the defeat and move
on, or are you like Steve Winter and know better than God ??
Rod
--
Gal 6:7 Be not tricked; God is not made sport of: for whatever seed a
man puts in, that will he get back as grain.
Gal 6:8 Because he who puts in the seed of the flesh will of the flesh
get the reward of death; but he who puts in the seed of the Spirit will
of the Spirit get the reward of eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not get tired of well-doing; for at the right time
we will get in the grain, if we do not give way to weariness.
Gal 6:10 So then, as we have the chance, let us do good to all men, and
specially to those who are of the family of the faith.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: A Brief Definition Of The Trinity |
25 May 2007 07:57:52 PM |
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On May 24, 7:18?pm, Pastor Steve Winter <steve-.NO--S...@-prime.org>
wrote:
sai...@nettally.com spake thusly and wrote:
A Brief Definition of the Trinity by James White
Does the accursed false-christian scum James White not know that
the trinity was defined by its inventor before he was born?
snip tripe
Hey "Real preacher" give him a call on his webshow and ask him, do
debate the man because you are a "real preacher". But in a real
moderated debate you cant do any of your false christian scum voo doo
curses. You actually have to stick to the subject.
.
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