| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ananias917" |
| Date: |
30 Dec 2005 06:56:55 AM |
| Object: |
A Logical Question |
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
The Last Days were in the first century:
Revelation 1:1,3
1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave unto him, to show unto his servants things
WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and
signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of
the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things
that he saw.
3) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear
the words of this prophecy, and keep those things
which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "sensi" |
|
| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
30 Dec 2005 08:03:26 AM |
|
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"Ananias917" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:m5bar1l3nt26a4ivi7v24lpjbp33da1eh8@4ax.com...
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
..
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
--
sensi:
The flesh body and the spirit/soul body are two different 'types' of
bodies.
A cocoon comes to mind.
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
The Last Days were in the first century:
Revelation 1:1,3
1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God
gave unto him, to show unto his servants things
WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and
signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of
the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things
that he saw.
3) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear
the words of this prophecy, and keep those things
which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "James" |
|
| Title: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 03:56:10 PM |
|
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Ananias917 <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
Was "Re: A Logical Question"
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Hello,
When you ask religious questions and don't want any Bible quotes, then
you are opening the door for people to not represent what the Bible
really teaches, but to add their own ideas and claim that is what the
Bible says. That can lead you to even more confusion on these
religious issues.
The Bible tells us to look up any religious doctrines taught to us and
verify them in the Bible. (Ac 17:11)
As per your request I won't "quote" any Bible passages (maybe just a
word here and there), but instead will leave with the location of the
passage, so that you can verify it if you so choose to.
First of all, The Bible holds out two promises for servants of God.
One is life in Heaven (Heb 3:1). But that number is limited to
144,000. (Re 14:1; 7:4) Those that belong in that group leave their
physical bodies behind, and are given a "spirit" body by God, just as
Jesus died in the flesh but was given a spirt body after his
resurrection. (1 Pe 3:18; 1 Co 15:44)
That "spirit" body is made of different 'stuff', and it is that body
that is required to get into Heaven. Physical bodies cannot get into
Heaven. (1 Co 15:50)
Second, the majority of mankind will be living right here on a
paradise earth. Jesus referred to them as "meek" ones, and that they
would "inherit" the earth (Mt 5:5) The Bible says God didn't make the
earth just for nothing, but made it to be inhabited. (Isa 45:18) And
the Bible even tells us that the righteous, along with the wicked,
will at some future time also be resurrected on this earth. (Ac 24:15)
So what kind of bodies will they get? The exact same ones right down
to the same molecules? That would seem unlikely since many molecules
of those long ago dead, by now have been made part of people living
today. (or even others who have died)
Rather, God will give them a body that likely resembled their own, but
it won't have to be molecule for molecule like the original.
Concerning appearances, we have the example of Lazarus who had died
and was rotting in a cave. When Jesus resurrected him, he came back
apparently looking like he did before, so that people could recognize
him. They were not saying 'Who is this person walking out of the
cave?' No, they saw that is was the dead Lazarus. (Joh 1:11-44)
So in summary, some people (144,000) will 'shed' their physical
bodies, and be given new spirit bodies by God to enter Heaven. The
rest if they had died, will be giving a new physical body by God at
their resurrection, to have the opportunity to live forever on a
paradise earth.
I hope those Bible Scriptures have helped to answer your questions
relating to the Bible.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.
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| User: "Roy Mock roymock1@optusnetDOTcomDOTau" |
|
| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 01:56:13 PM |
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"James" <arox@surfbest.net> wrote in message
news:4dhds1hue6ii2ok2g6ne51slsrkf55crsn@4ax.com...
Ananias917 <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
Was "Re: A Logical Question"
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Hello,
When you ask religious questions and don't want any Bible quotes, then
you are opening the door for people to not represent what the Bible
really teaches, but to add their own ideas and claim that is what the
Bible says. That can lead you to even more confusion on these
religious issues.
The Bible tells us to look up any religious doctrines taught to us and
verify them in the Bible. (Ac 17:11)
As per your request I won't "quote" any Bible passages (maybe just a
word here and there), but instead will leave with the location of the
passage, so that you can verify it if you so choose to.
First of all, The Bible holds out two promises for servants of God.
One is life in Heaven (Heb 3:1). But that number is limited to
144,000. (Re 14:1; 7:4) Those that belong in that group leave their
physical bodies behind, and are given a "spirit" body by God, just as
Jesus died in the flesh but was given a spirt body after his
resurrection. (1 Pe 3:18; 1 Co 15:44)
That "spirit" body is made of different 'stuff', and it is that body
that is required to get into Heaven. Physical bodies cannot get into
Heaven. (1 Co 15:50)
Second, the majority of mankind will be living right here on a
paradise earth. Jesus referred to them as "meek" ones, and that they
would "inherit" the earth (Mt 5:5) The Bible says God didn't make the
earth just for nothing, but made it to be inhabited. (Isa 45:18) And
the Bible even tells us that the righteous, along with the wicked,
will at some future time also be resurrected on this earth. (Ac 24:15)
So what kind of bodies will they get? The exact same ones right down
to the same molecules? That would seem unlikely since many molecules
of those long ago dead, by now have been made part of people living
today. (or even others who have died)
Rather, God will give them a body that likely resembled their own, but
it won't have to be molecule for molecule like the original.
Concerning appearances, we have the example of Lazarus who had died
and was rotting in a cave. When Jesus resurrected him, he came back
apparently looking like he did before, so that people could recognize
him. They were not saying 'Who is this person walking out of the
cave?' No, they saw that is was the dead Lazarus. (Joh 1:11-44)
So in summary, some people (144,000) will 'shed' their physical
bodies, and be given new spirit bodies by God to enter Heaven. The
rest if they had died, will be giving a new physical body by God at
their resurrection, to have the opportunity to live forever on a
paradise earth.
I hope those Bible Scriptures have helped to answer your questions
relating to the Bible.
Where do you think Heaven is located, James?
.
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| User: "The Golden Chicken" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 04:19:28 PM |
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The Bible tells us to look up any religious doctrines taught to us and
verify them in the Bible. (Ac 17:11)
LOL.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22BoD_!_=A9_2005=2E=22?=" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 04:00:00 PM |
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James wrote:
Ananias917 <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
Was "Re: A Logical Question"
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Yeah, 100mg Largactol I V Push
.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 08:51:30 PM |
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In article <AjAxf.108937$D47.103058@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, BoD@The-
HouseOfGod.org says...
James wrote:
Ananias917 <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
Was "Re: A Logical Question"
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Yeah, 100mg Largactol I V Push
That ~might~ help some of these people...
BDK
.
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| User: "70AD" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 02:18:56 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:56:10 -0800, James
<arox@surfbest.net> spake thusly:
Ananias917 <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
Was "Re: A Logical Question"
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Hello,
When you ask religious questions and don't want any Bible quotes, then
you are opening the door for people to not represent what the Bible
really teaches, but to add their own ideas and claim that is what the
Bible says. That can lead you to even more confusion on these
religious issues.
The Bible tells us to look up any religious doctrines taught to us and
verify them in the Bible. (Ac 17:11)
That is my point.
No, I'm not. Nor am I a beginner. I am simply
trying to get Christians to stop reading the Bible
by sifting it through their doctrine and to start
doing it the other way around. Most Christians
leave their common sense at the door, because
they're pretty much brainwashed by the modern
churches, who only know doctrine and not Scripture.
As far as I'm concerned, the Bible does not teach
the raising of the bodies that we have now. If you
think differently, fine. But what happens is, that
Christians quote Scripture passages, as if there
is only one understanding... theirs. And theirs
is only a doctrine they have been taught about
what the words, "really mean". (:
As per your request I won't "quote" any Bible passages (maybe just a
word here and there), but instead will leave with the location of the
passage, so that you can verify it if you so choose to.
First of all, The Bible holds out two promises for servants of God.
One is life in Heaven (Heb 3:1). But that number is limited to
144,000. (Re 14:1; 7:4) Those that belong in that group leave their
physical bodies behind, and are given a "spirit" body by God, just as
Jesus died in the flesh but was given a spirt body after his
resurrection. (1 Pe 3:18; 1 Co 15:44)
Jesus' original body was raised. We are not Jesus
however. And I am not interested in your JW doctrine.
If only 144,000 will be saved, then you might as well
give up now. There have been a lot more than 144,000
"good JW's" already.
That "spirit" body is made of different 'stuff', and it is that body
that is required to get into Heaven.
Jesus' body was changed after the original was
resurrected (or at the same time, whatever).
Physical bodies cannot get into Heaven. (1 Co 15:50)
I know that. That is my point. :)
Second, the majority of mankind will be living right here on a
paradise earth.
No, they won't. The Bible says we will be in Heaven.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
The Last Days were in the first century:
"But the end of all things is AT HAND: be YE
therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
- 1 Peter 4:7
.
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
12 Jan 2006 09:40:44 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:18:56 GMT, 70AD <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jesus' original body was raised.
Then why didn't Mary Magdalene recognize the Messiah?
John 20:14 (KJV)
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus
standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
.
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| User: "The Golden Chicken" |
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| Title: Re: Was "Re: A Logical Question" |
13 Jan 2006 01:54:29 AM |
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"Saint Zombie" <no.email@truth.org> wrote in message
news:sl7es1t189oe40q30llsomk5siqpakpddt@4ax.com...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 20:18:56 GMT, 70AD <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jesus' original body was raised.
Then why didn't Mary Magdalene recognize the Messiah?
John 20:14 (KJV)
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus
standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
She had Alzheimers.
.
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| User: "John P. Boatwright" |
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| Title: Now Pastor Dave denies the power of God. Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 01:56:52 AM |
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Ananias917 wrote:
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
You tell me:
* Why did God create Adam out of the dust of the earth,
only to have him die some years later?
* Why did God raise Jesus again, only to have his body
vanish/vaporize some time later?
From what you're saying, it's all pointless, a complete
and utter waste of ridiculously small portion of God's
infinite power.
What do you expect God to do with all that power anyway?
God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants to do
whatever he wants to do.
Who are you to say he can't do what he wants to do?
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Proof God described the planet density profile
BEFORE science did:
http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/density.htm
(see the 2 graphs, obviously God was right in Genesis)
Mirror site at: http://For-God.net
.
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| User: "The Alien" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
30 Dec 2005 08:31:01 AM |
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X-No-archive: yes On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:56:55 GMT, Ananias917
<@gmail.com> used recycled pixels to say:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own logic or
reasoning, please excuse me if you do not agree with what I have to
say, and I will honor your request by not throwing in Bible
references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we would live
forever in our sins and have no hope. When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings, we will have changed as well. Would you like to
live forever in Sin and decay? For me, I would not! I want G-D to
change me and then make my body incorruptable, without sin.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core and has no
possilble escape from it. It has to die so that its shell can be cast
aside (split open by an outside force - that being Water) and then it
can grow into something lasting. Otherwise the seed will stay in the
ground and rot away the next Spring season and be no more; or worse
yet, be consumed (eaten)!
#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#
HREF="mailto:postmaster@127.0.0.1"
mailto:postmaster@127.0.0.1
.
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| User: "Ananias917" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
30 Dec 2005 12:21:47 PM |
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On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:31:01 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own logic or
reasoning, please excuse me if you do not agree with what I have to
say, and I will honor your request by not throwing in Bible
references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we would live
forever in our sins and have no hope.
Not if we're dead. Your answer begins by assuming
that the old bodies are raised, instead of answering
the question of why one would logically think that
they would be raised at all, only to change them.
What would be the point of raising the old shell?
When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings,
You see? You begin by already assuming that the old
bodies will be raised and you ignored the question
entirely.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core
Paul gave the example of farming. The shell is on
the outside and falls away.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
The Last Days were in the first century:
"A LITTLE WHILE, and ye shall not see me:
and again, A LITTLE WHILE and ye shall
see me, because I go to the Father."
- John 16:16
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| User: "martus" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
30 Dec 2005 05:11:48 PM |
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The first of the resurrected immortal bodies was Jesus', scars
included.
Was this the final form of Jesus' body, God knows, but it is this body
that was taken to heaven.
I suspect this body was transferred from matter to an energy body.
In other words this original seed was still required to do the
conversion.
End times:
http://mart1963.tripod.com/
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| User: "Ananias917" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 02:55:27 PM |
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On 30 Dec 2005 15:11:48 -0800, "martus"
<marttila69@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
The first of the resurrected immortal bodies was Jesus', scars
included.
Was this the final form of Jesus' body, God knows, but it is this body
that was taken to heaven.
I suspect this body was transferred from matter to an energy body.
In other words this original seed was still required to do the
conversion.
Once again, you assume yourself to be right. You even
snipped everything I wrote this time.
Now you want to tell me about what "you suspect",
because you aren't willing to simply believe what
the Bible says. Your doctrine is more important
to you.
The fact is, that the shell is not required. It falls
off and dies and Paul gave us example of farming
and planting seeds. When the shell goes into
the ground, it is cast off. It is no longer used.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
The Last Days were in the first century:
Luke 21:20-22
20) And when YE shall see JERUSALEM compassed
with armies, then know that the desolation
THEREOF IS NIGH.
21) Then let them which are IN JUDEA flee to
the mountains; and let them which are in the
midst of it depart out; and let not them that
are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For THESE be the days of vengeance, that
ALL THING WHICH ARE WRITTEN, MAY BE FULFILLED.
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| User: "The Alien" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 10:05:22 AM |
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X-No-archive: yes On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:21:47 GMT, Ananias917
<@gmail.com> used recycled pixels to say:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:31:01 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own logic or
reasoning, please excuse me if you do not agree with what I have to
say, and I will honor your request by not throwing in Bible
references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we would live
forever in our sins and have no hope.
Not if we're dead. Your answer begins by assuming
that the old bodies are raised, instead of answering
the question of why one would logically think that
they would be raised at all, only to change them.
What would be the point of raising the old shell?
When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings,
You see? You begin by already assuming that the old
bodies will be raised and you ignored the question
entirely.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core
Paul gave the example of farming. The shell is on
the outside and falls away.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell
Oh well, you did ask for "man's" logic and not references of
scripture.
#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#
mailto:postmaster@127.0.0.1
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| User: "Ananias917" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 02:57:40 PM |
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:05:22 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:31:01 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is not
that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual body,
as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own logic or
reasoning, please excuse me if you do not agree with what I have to
say, and I will honor your request by not throwing in Bible
references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we would live
forever in our sins and have no hope.
Not if we're dead. Your answer begins by assuming
that the old bodies are raised, instead of answering
the question of why one would logically think that
they would be raised at all, only to change them.
What would be the point of raising the old shell?
When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings,
You see? You begin by already assuming that the old
bodies will be raised and you ignored the question
entirely.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core
Paul gave the example of farming. The shell is on
the outside and falls away.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell
Oh well, you did ask for "man's" logic and not references of
scripture.
I did no such thing. I asked for logic. Logic is God
given and logic does not lead one to argue that
which is contrary to the basic premise of Paul's
example, which is what I did mention at first.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
"Faith is not an intellectual belief. Faith is
a belief with legs on it." - Adrian Rogers
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "alexiastation" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 06:44:11 PM |
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Ananias917 wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:05:22 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:31:01 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is
not that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual
body, as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own
logic or reasoning, please excuse me if you do not
agree with what I have to say, and I will honor your
request by not throwing in Bible references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we
would live forever in our sins and have no hope.
Not if we're dead. Your answer begins by assuming
that the old bodies are raised, instead of answering
the question of why one would logically think that
they would be raised at all, only to change them.
What would be the point of raising the old shell?
When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings,
You see? You begin by already assuming that the old
bodies will be raised and you ignored the question
entirely.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core
Paul gave the example of farming. The shell is on
the outside and falls away.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell
Oh well, you did ask for "man's" logic and not
references of scripture.
I did no such thing. I asked for logic. Logic is God
given and logic does not lead one to argue that
which is contrary to the basic premise of Paul's
example, which is what I did mention at first.
Once again you prove answering you or reading you is pointless. Oh well
Have a great year in 2006.
Beth
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| User: "70AD" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
01 Jan 2006 10:45:25 AM |
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On 1 Jan 2006 06:14:10 -0800, "martus"
<marttila69@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
70AD wrote:
On 31 Dec 2005 21:59:26 -0800, "martus"
<marttila69@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Ananias917 stated not to use bible verses, perhaps to show that the
bible is not as important as Ananias' opinions?
You make an accusations against me and don't seem
to feel that it is a bad thing. You don't even seem to
care if it is true or not.
Logic and reason are God given attributes. And I did
mention a Scripture. I simply wished to avoid people
not thinking about my question and just throwing
verses out there, acting as if whatever is running
through their heads about them, must somehow
be the only possible understanding and therefore,
I must know and be agreeing with it.
I also wished to avoid having people avoid the passage
I referenced, by throwing other passages out there and
failing to deal with the specific point that I made.
What those who have responded have proved, is that
they get upset when someone asks them to think about
what it is they normally spit out, which is what they
have been trained to spit out.
I believe in Bible STUDY. And Bible study begins with
THINKING and not just reading someone's doctrine
and repeating it.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
"It's hard to stumble when you're down on your knees."
Ananias917 still could not get the fish scales of his eyes when in
black and white Paul states very clearly : "Our dead and decaying
bodies will be changed into bodies that
won't die or decay."
More insults, instead of an answer? Is that what you
proclaim to be, "the Christian way"?
1Co 15:52-53
(52) It will happen suddenly, quicker than the blink of an eye. At the
sound of the last trumpet the dead will be raised. We will all be
changed, so that we will never die again.
(53) Our dead and decaying bodies will be changed into bodies that
won't die or decay.
You have quoted the CEV, which is a paraphrase.
The CEV (Contemporary English Version), is not
a word for word translation and therefore, may
not be correct at all.
Do you know what a paraphrase is?
A paraphrase is when someone has a belief about
what a passage says and then writes it that way
in the language that they are translating it into,
in this case, English. It may or may not reflect
what the Bible actually says. It is not to be held
up as an absolutely accurate translation. It is
someone's interpretation, nothing more. It is
THEIR BELIEF about what the passages say.
This is where you have gone wrong. Maybe you
did not realize that the version you are reading
is a paraphrase and not an accurate, word for
word translation. No Bible is exactly word for
word, but this one does not even make an attempt.
What I am asking you, is WHY should I believe
what you do. Quoting the Bible and not attempting
to explain why you believe what you do, does not
explain a thing.
"Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord."
You just *ASSUME* that *YOU* are right and
that a paraphrase, which is not a word for word
translation, is absolutely the word of God.
You might want to try using a translation that
actually translates the words, instead of people
inserting their own doctrines and calling that
an honest translation. I tell you that, so that
your studies can become more fruitful, instead
of quoting someone's opinion about what it
says and then claiming that I am refusing to
believe the Bible, when in reality, I am simply
stating that their opinion, does not necessarily
equate to truth, since it isn't the word of God,
but their opinion they have printed.
It does not say, "Our dead and decaying bodies will
be changed into bodies that won't die or decay."
It says...
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality."
That is an accurate translation, when one looks
at the original Koine Greek, which is what the
New Testament was written in and what you
pasted in, is not the same thing.
The word "body" is not found anywhere in
the original Greek of that verse. NOWHERE!
Now if it was in fact, stated as plainly as what
the CEV claims it is, then yes, I agree, that I
would have to believe exactly what you do.
But that is not the case. It doesn't actually
say that. They have given you their doctrine
and didn't even attempt to give you what it
says in reality, which is, again...
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality."
And the word "body", is not found there AT ALL.
You did not answer the questions. I will state them
in a more plain fashion, to help you better understand
what it is I am asking.
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Paul gave the example of FARMING and PLANTING
SEEDS, to explain death and the resurrection.
The word "sowing" means planting the seeds and
represents our bodies dying and being buried.
Now, understanding this... If that which is sown
is not that which is raised, as Paul said, then how
can it be our old bodies that are raised?
"And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that
body that shall be" - 1 Corinthians 15:37a
The body that will be raised, is not the body that
is sown.
Didn't Paul also say, in that same chapter...
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual
body." - 1 Corinthians 15:44
And he also said... "and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible".
It is your belief that the old body is buried, rots
away and then is raised and then changed. But
the Bible never actually says that.
Consider the following verses, in light what I am
saying, which is that just as Jesus said about the
seed planted dying (the shell falls off) and as Paul
said about the shell, that it falls away and is left
behind and that which is raised, is that which
springs up, just like when you sow seed.
Paul said...
1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not
that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may
chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him,
and to every seed his own body.
Note, to every SEED HIS OWN BODY. A seed's
SHELL falls away and is dead.
Peter also said that he had to "put off his tent
shortly". he did not say, "and put on another".
Please also consider the following verses...
1 Corinthians 15:46-50
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual,
but that which is natural; and afterward that
which is spiritual.
What is raised is not the natural body, but the
spiritual body. First we have a natural body,
then a spiritual body.
You also base your belief on the doctrine that we will
all live here on Earth, in flesh and blood bodies, but
the Bible does not teach. Paul just finished saying
that what would be received, is a spiritual body.
Read it again (above). We live in heaven forever,
not on Earth. Read Hebrews 12:22 and John 14:1-3.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second
man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are
earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also
that are heavenly.
See above.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
We will bear the image of the Heavenly, not
the Earthly. It isn't the Earthly body that
is raised.
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth
corruption inherit incorruption.
And here it says it clearly. While you believe in
flesh and blood bodies, the Bible clearly teaches
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom
of God. Therefore, the Kingdom of God cannot
be an Earthly kingdom, with flesh and blood
people walking around.
Now you will bring up Jesus' resurrection. But
we are not Jesus. Are we also God? No. He is.
And don't forget, having the tomb empty was
an absolute requirement, or people would not
believe.
But what you don't consider, is that if we were
to be raised just as Jesus was, then why did
Paul have to respond to these questions? The
people he wrote to, knew how Jesus was raised.
Thus, it is obvious that it was NOT assumed
that everyone's physical bodies were going to
be raised!
You also forget that Jesus' physical body was raised
for the sign of His body not seeing corruption.
"Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou
shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
- Acts 13:35
BUT HUMAN BODIES DO SEE CORRUPTION !!!
Therefore, we are NOT the same as Jesus!
You like paraphrases? Fine! Let me quote some
Scripture and then paraphrase it for you. The
very Scripture that Paul started this resurrection
teaching with.
Here is the quote...
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?
And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that
which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that
body that shall be" - 1 Corinthians 15:35-37a
And here is the paraphrase...
But some man will say; How are the dead raised up?
And with what body do they come? You fool! That
which you plant is not made alive, unless it dies!
And that which you plant, IS NOT THE BODY that
will be!" - 1 Corinthians 15:35-37a
And note also that Paul says, "with what body do
they *COME*".
What body do they *COME* with?
He is speaking of those who come with the Lord Jesus,
when He returns. Thus, the same body that they COME
WITH, is the body that those in the grave would be
raised to.
Contrary to the doctrine that is taught by the modern
churches, those who come with Jesus were not coming
TO BE RESURRECTED. They were ALREADY RESURRECTED!
That's why they were alive, in Heaven, with Christ!
NOWHERE does the Bible teach coming back from
Heaven, to get another body!
People assume that, because of what they have been
taught and so now, they automatically filter the Bible
through that doctrine, rather than filtering the
doctrine through the Bible, to see if the Bible
actually says that!
"With what body do THEY COME?"
Paul said very clearly, that the body which is sown,
is not the body that is raised.
Why would God bother reassembling all of those
molecules, just to raise a totally different body???
That doesn't make sense!
Christ's body was raised, because IT HAD NOT DECAYED!
It was STILL THERE, intact and it was A SIGN, since the
whole Gospel is based on the EMPTY TOMB, is it not? :)
Now I will see how you will answer. If you can prove
me wrong, DEALING WITH THESE SCRIPTURES,
so be it.
But if all you can do, is throw more insults, then you
have only proved that you cannot refute what I have
said and that you are angry about that, which means
that your doctrine is more important to you than
truth, since learning Biblical truths would not upset
a Christian. Rather, it would excite him!!!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
"Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific
work of any kind realises that over the entrance to
the gates of the temple of science are written the
words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the
scientist cannot dispense with." - Max Planck
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| User: "70AD" |
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| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
01 Jan 2006 08:42:48 PM |
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On 1 Jan 2006 18:38:06 -0800, "martus"
<marttila69@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
A body of a plant does not suddenly appear by itself does it?
Um, yes, it does.
The shell falls off in the ground and it is the plant
that springs up out of the dirt.
It comes from the body of a seed.
Of which the shell has fallen off.
See below.
First comes the corruptible which is changed into the incorruption.
The incorruptable body does not appear out of nowhere.
As for Jesus are you saying He was not a man?
He was the first man's body to be ressurrected into an immortal man's
body, true or false?
And that process included His physical body, true or false?
Jesus set the precedent on how a body was converted into an immortal
body, unless of course you know of another man's body that was
converted from mortal to the immortal in a different way to prove your
point.
Putting on something onto the other means the other was ther to start
of with.
1Co 15:53
(CEV) Our dead and decaying bodies will be changed into bodies that
won't die or decay.
(Complete Apostles' Bible) For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(GNB) For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what
will die must be changed into what cannot die.
(ISV) For what is decaying must put on what cannot decay, and what is
dying must put on what cannot die.
(JPS)
(KJV+TVM) For1063 this5124 corruptible5349 must1163 [5748] put on1746
[5670] incorruption861, and2532 this5124 mortal2349 must put on1746
[5670] immortality110.
(KJV+) For1063 this5124 corruptible5349 must1163 put on1746
incorruption,861 and2532 this5124 mortal2349 must put on1746
immortality.110
(KJVA) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality.
Each one still states the old puts on the new.
"But if all you can do, is throw more insults, then you
have only proved that you cannot refute what I have
said and that you are angry about that, which means
that your doctrine is more important to you than
truth, since learning Biblical truths would not upset
a Christian. Rather, it would excite him!!! "
Actually I find you funny, is that insulting you again?
I think anybody that disagrees with you, you probably think is
insulting you.
You snipped everything I said. How is that a
discussion about a point that I brought up?
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
"If then, these teachings [of a false prophet]
contradict the chief doctrine and article of Christ,
we should accord them neither with attention nor
acceptance though it were to snow miracles daily."
- Martin Luther
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| User: "Ananias917" |
|
| Title: Re: A Logical Question |
31 Dec 2005 07:29:10 PM |
|
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:44:11 -0600, "alexiastation"
<alexiastation@nope.com> spake thusly:
Ananias917 wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:05:22 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:31:01 -0500, The Alien
<Someone@Someplace.Com> spake thusly:
Hi,
This is just a logical question. I am not looking for
Scripture passages to be quoted, which you think
mean that I must see them as you do, because you
think no other understanding of them is possible.
I am just looking for YOU to think and for YOU
to answer, from logic and reason, okay?
People die. Their bodies decay and someday the Lord
will reassemble these dead molecules, whether they
be scattered over the water, or thrown as ashes off
of a cliff, or whatever and then raised, only to be
changed into bodies that are not made of human flesh
anyway. Isn't that what's taught?
Let me ask you a question...
Why would God bother reassembling the ashes and
reanimating the dead bodies and raising them, just
to change them 2 seconds later, into something
completely different anyway?
Or is it possible, that when Paul gave the example
of farming and throwing a seed into the ground
and telling us how the shell falls off and dies and
told us that, "that which is raised is not that which
is sown" and that when Peter said he must shortly
"put off this tent", that they meant that the shell is
cast off and dies and that that which is raised, is
not that which is sown and is instead, a spiritual
body, as Paul said?
Anybody have a comment?
Since I am answering or attempting to help with my own
logic or reasoning, please excuse me if you do not
agree with what I have to say, and I will honor your
request by not throwing in Bible references):
From what I understand, if G-D did not change us, we
would live forever in our sins and have no hope.
Not if we're dead. Your answer begins by assuming
that the old bodies are raised, instead of answering
the question of why one would logically think that
they would be raised at all, only to change them.
What would be the point of raising the old shell?
When G-D does change us into
incorruptable beings,
You see? You begin by already assuming that the old
bodies will be raised and you ignored the question
entirely.
A seed planted has a unremovable shell about it's core
Paul gave the example of farming. The shell is on
the outside and falls away.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell
Oh well, you did ask for "man's" logic and not
references of scripture.
I did no such thing. I asked for logic. Logic is God
given and logic does not lead one to argue that
which is contrary to the basic premise of Paul's
example, which is what I did mention at first.
Once again you prove answering you or reading you is pointless.
What I have proved, is that to answer and avoid
the issue I stated, is not an answer to my question.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
"Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is AT HAND" - Philippians 4:5
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