| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2008 05:09:43 PM |
| Object: |
A PRETERIST QUESTIONS (Answered) |
A PRETERIST QUESTIONS (Answered)
First, a comment or two: When someone asks me a question or makes a
statement about scripture, and gives scripture to support their question
or statement, I ALWAYS (and so should you) examine the scripture to see
if the reference is accurate or appropriate. Acts 17:10-11.
Next, I consider the question to see if it is Logical and Reasonable, or
if it contains flaws. I am far from expert in the practice of logic, and
recommend a google of the subject, or "The Importance of Being Able to
Reason" http://tinyurl.com/hu9qe
The Debaters of our age delight in playing word games: switching between
the "symbolic" or "literal" meanings to fit his or her needs, and then
ridicule anyone who points out the metaphor in the scripture has
meaning. The Sophist uses terms like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" when it
pleases them, then ridicule anyone who points out that Metaphor and
Symbol have a literal meaning, the meaning God intended, in His Word.
We Christians do need to be ready to give an answer to those who
question us concerning our faith, but we also need to be aware that some
who question us have no interest in or love of Truth, and seek to
question us as a way of destroying our faith. To debate the details with
our enemies is one thing Paul warned us about: "shun profane and vain
babblings..." 2 Cor 12:20, 2 Tim 2:16.
Having said that: These answers offered below are for Christians who are
searching His Word for Truth, not for unbelievers (for obvious reasons):
Answers to these questions are given below.
The 10 Questions
QUESTION #1
Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire... Why would anyone need
healing if they are now in eternal bliss?
ANSWER:
Actually this is several questions.
q) Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire, and all the nations
of the earth will be destroyed along with it; then, when the "New Earth"
or "New Jerusalem" comes, why will the nations need healing? How can you
heal something that is already dead and burned?
a) A question beginning with "Assuming," is beginning with the rejection
of the scriptural evidence relating to the subject of the question.
First; remove "assuming..."
"The earth will be destroyed with fire..."
"The world is destroyed in fervent heat" and all who reject God, and His
Sacrificial Lamb, are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 19:17-20, 20:11-15.
a) 2 Peter 3:3-12, Hab 3:6, Na 1:5 "The mountains quake at him, and the
hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and
all that dwell therein.
Mat 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul
and body in hell. Rev 19:21, 20:9-15.
Concerning the healing: Revelation 22:1-5. This is a Symbolic depiction
of something we will not fully understand until That Day, the day when
the purpose of God is completed.
The sophist delights in playing word games: switching between the
"symbolic" and "literal" meaning of His Word to fit his or her needs, or
using the meaning of a word as "hyperbole" or "metaphor" when it pleases
them. Here the Debator wants to use the description of the vision seen
by John in a Literal way while rejecting the meaning intended by God.
We have not been given a literal definition of Heaven; and for someone
to take the metaphors we have been given and attempt to use them as a
literal definition in order to Question God's Word should reveal the
spirit which is the source of such questions.
a) Those nations of earth which reject God, and His Lamb of Sacrifice,
are destroyed. "The nations" seen in Heaven are the People who are saved
from earth. Zec 12:9, Rev 21:4.
Now, in our lives, we are sometimes over-awed with our illness, not so
much only of the flesh, but of our heart and soul. This is a simple
promise, a reassurance even if it is unnecessary, that we will be healed.
q) If the New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages, when all things...
A question beginning with "if" is a rejection of the scriptural evidence
related to the subject of the question. First, remove the "if."
q) New Jerusalem is the saved of all ages... Rev 21:24, Zec 14:16, Mal
3:12, 17.
a) God wants us to live by faith, and we cannot know everything, we
cannot have all our questions answered, yet. The mystery of God will not
be finished until the Seventh Trumpet sounds, and then we will know. . .
Rev 10:7.
-----
QUESTION #2
Why would the gates of this city be left open if everything outside this
city is destroyed?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #2
Why would the gates of this city be left open if everything outside this
city is destroyed (Revelation 21:25)? If everyone outside these gates
were burned up and there is nobody left alive outside these gates, why
are there people still entering through the gates into the city after
the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven (Revelation 21:24)?
a) Again, a question beginning with "if" is a rejection of scriptural
evidence concerning the subject of the question. First, remove "if."
"Everything outside the city is destroyed..." Rev 16:17-21, 19:11;21,
20:9-10, 21:21-27.
a) "The world is destroyed" and all who rebel against God are cast into
the lake of fire. 2 Peter 3:3-12, Hab 3:6, Na 1:5 The mountains quake at
him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea,
the world, and all that dwell therein."
Mat 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul
and body in hell. Rev 19:21, 20:9-15.
Actually; this question is pure sophistry, based on the confusion of
terms, a debate over symbolism, metaphor and literal meaning.
The Preterist delights in playing word games: switching between a
"symbolic" or "literal" definition to fit his or her needs, then
ridicule anyone who points out the metaphor in the scripture has meaning.
The Debater uses terms like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" when it pleases
them, then ridicule anyone who points out the literal meaning of
scripture. This proves that "Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a
vicious attitude of the mind." (Jacques Maritain)
The phrase "outside the city" means outside Heaven, dead, in the lake of
fire. Therefore, any metaphor about coming and going in Heaven is about
God's People.
God wants us to live by faith, and we cannot know everything, we cannot
have all our questions answered, yet. The mystery of God will not be
finished until the Seventh Trumpet sounds.
------
QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more death, why
does the Bible say there WILL still be physical death in the New Heaven
and New Earth (Isaiah 65:20, 66:24)?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #3
If, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more death, why
does the Bible say there WILL still be physical death in the New Heaven
and New Earth (Isaiah 65:20, 66:24)?
a) A question which begins with "if" is a rejection of the scriptural
evidence concerning the subject of the question. First, remove the "if"
In the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more death... "Death
is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where
is thy victory?". 1 Cor 15:50-55.
a) This is a contentious effort to debate the definitions of terms,
between metaphor and literal meaning. Isaiah spoke as he was given God's
Word. Isaiah said, "but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be
accursed," not that the sinner would be in heaven. To be "accursed" is
to be in Hell. Rev 21:27, 22:14.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and
searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto
you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which
was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of
Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed,
that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things,
which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel
unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the
angels desire to look into."
So Isaiah did not have a literal definition of Heaven, (nor do we, yet,)
but did record what he was given by the Holy Spirit.
The Sophist delights in playing word games: switching between an assumed
"symbolic" or "literal" meaning to fit his or her needs. These Debaters
use terms like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" when it pleases them, then
ridicule anyone who points out the literal meaning of scripture. This
proves that "Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude
of the mind." (Jacques Maritain)
God wants us to live by faith, and we cannot know everything, we cannot
have all our questions answered yet. The mystery of God will not be
finished until the Seventh Trumpet sounds.
-----
QUESTION #4
If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will be no more sin,
why does Isaiah say there WILL still be sin (Isaiah 65:20)?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #4
This is three questions.
q) If, after the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will be no more
sin, why does Isaiah say there WILL still be sin (Isaiah 65:20 66:24)?
q) Even Jesus Christ said there would still be sin in the next age
(Matthew 12:32, Revelation 22:15).
q) And Revelation says that, after the New Jerusalem comes, there will
still be sinners (Revelation 21:27).
a) A question which begins with "if" is a rejection of scriptural
evidence concerning the subject of the question. First, remove the "if."
After the New Heaven and New Earth come, there will be no more sin.
"...to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness"
Dan 9:24.
a) This is a contentious effort to debate the definitions of terms: None
of these scripture quoted (Isa 65:20, 66:24) say what the question
interprets them to mean. In other words, this attempted debate is based
on fallacy.
Isa 65:20 does not say the hundred year old sinner would be in heaven,
Isaiah said he would be accursed. To be "accursed" is to be in hell.
a) Mat 12:32. Jesus lived in the end of the age of the Law and Prophets,
and His death as the Lamb of God began the Last Age, the age we now live
in. Jesus was not talking about sin in Heaven. Gen 49:1, 8-12 is
prophecy of the birth of Christ, Dan 11:6, "end of years," James 5:3
Peter 3:3, these are the Last days, the end of the age, Heb 9:26 RSV.
b) Rev 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that
defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but
they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." Of course no sinner
will enter the City, Heaven, because they will be in the lake of fire.
The Sophist delights in playing word games: switching between "symbolic"
and "literal" to fit his or her needs, or use terms like "hyperbole" and
"metaphor" to confuse their intended victim.
God wants us to live by faith, and we cannot know everything, yet. We
cannot have all our questions answered, yet. The mystery of God will not
be finished until the Seventh Trumpet sounds.
-----
QUESTION #5
If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will physically come
down to earth, why did Jesus say it would not come with observation, and
that people would not say "look here or look there..."?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #5
q) If the New Jerusalem is a physical place, and it will physically come
down to earth, why did Jesus say it would not come with observation, and
that people would not say "look here or look there" (Luke 17:20-21)?
a) When a question begins with "if," it is a rejection of the scripture
which concerns the subject of the question, or, in this case, there is
no scripture which supports the question, so it is vain speculation.
First, remove the "if."
"New Jerusalem is a physical place..."?
There is no scripture which says New Jerusalem is a "Physical" place.
Since there is no Word of God which makes that statement, then this can
only be a lie of Satan. Actually, Paul tells us that it will not be
"physical" in that it will not be "corruptible." 1 Cor 15:50-54.
a) Heaven, New Jerusalem, is a Literal place, a Real place which we will
live in with God.
The Sophist asking the Question has "the Kingdom" confused with
"Heaven," the New Jerusalem. In Luke 17:20-21, Jesus was speaking of the
Kingdom, Ecclesia, His Church.
First, Jesus' answer was to the Pharisees, who were expecting a literal
return of David's Kingdom. He replied that "the kingdom is within you,"
which was not an answer they could accept.
Acts 2:38-47. His Ecclesia is His Kingdom, His People, the Church.
As Paul explained later:
"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which
is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19,
and,
Col 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son..." The Congregation of
His People, Ecclesia, is His Kingdom.
q) Why not say "look" if it will come with observation? Can it possibly
be because it will be a spiritual kingdom and not a physical one?
a) The Church, His Kingdom, is the physical assembly of His People, the
Ecclesia, Congregation. Heaven is a literal Place, but not a Physical,
corruptible, place.
The Debater delights in playing word games: switching between a
"symbolic" or "literal" meaning to fit his or her needs, or use terms
like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" in an effort to deceive. In this
Question, the Sophist based the Question on the misunderstanding of
"Kingdom" and "Heaven." It is not possible to answer a question which is
based on misunderstanding or fallacy without first removing the fallacy.
-----
QUESTION #6
If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to leave them, why
would they ask Him about His return? How could the disciple have asked a
question about something they knew nothing about?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #6
Return of Christ
This next question is concerning the question the disciples asked in
Matthew 24:3: "And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end
of the age?"
First: Jesus talked to his disciples about his death but the apostles
did not understand it. Matthew 16:21-22, Mark 8:31-32; 9:31-32, Luke
9:44-45; 18:31-34, John 13:33-14:6; 16:16-18).
a) When someone asks me a question or makes a statement about scripture,
and gives scripture to support the question or statement, I ALWAYS
examine the scripture to see if the reference is accurate or
appropriate. Acts 17:10-11.
Matthew 16:21
"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that
he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and
chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third
day.
Luke 9:44-45; 18:31-34,
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall
be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that
they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go
up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets
concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be
delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully
entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day
he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid
from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
John 14:26, 16:13-18 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom
the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into
all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall
hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it
unto you.
q) This last account in the Gospel of John takes place after Jesus had
given them the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24) and they still did not
understand that Jesus was going to leave them and die. After all, he was
God...how can God die? They had no idea of Jesus leaving, then coming
again (John 12:34).
a) The wrong assumptions and misinterpretation:
This statement "After all, he was God...how can God die?" is an
assumption, an assumption of what the apostils may have thought--which
is not supported in fact. The quote given (John 12:34) is not the
statement of the apostils, but "the people answered..." Therefore this
preterist question contains misinformation.
q) The disciples expected Jesus to be their physical King and set up a
worldly Kingdom at his First Coming (John 6:15, Luke 24:21), not at his
Second Coming. So did others (Luke 17:20-21; 19:11). Even after the
crucifixion, they still had no concept about his Second Coming, because
they still thought he was going to give them a physical Kingdom at that
time (Acts 1:6).
a) The wrong assumptions and misinterpretation:
John 6:15 is not about the Apostils, but "Others;" and Luke 17:20 is the
Pharisees. It does not matter to those who search for and love Truth
what someone misunderstands: it is not possible to base a correct
understanding of God's Word on the errors of others. What we want to
know is; what is the Truth of His Word.
However: Yes, almost all (if not all) the Jews expected the immediate
return of the Kingdom of David. However (I say again), misunderstanding
and wrong assumption is not a firm foundation for an understanding of
the events of the days between the Last Supper and the Day of Pentecost,
or is it a solid foundation for Doctrine.
q) If the apostles had no idea that Jesus was going to leave them, why
would they ask Him about His return (Matthew 24:3)?
a) A question which begins with "if" is a rejection of the scriptural
evidence concerning the subject of the question, or as in this question,
reveals that it is a deceptive question. First, remove the "if."
Next, remove the deception, or correct the fallacy. Once the deception
is removed or the fallacy corrected, there may no longer be a question.
First is the fallacy that they had "no idea that Jesus was going to
leave them." The truth is; that he told them several time over the last
three years that He would leave them. The scripture said "they
understood none of these things." They did have the "idea, the
information and knowledge" that He would leave them, they just did not
understand it, yet.
So the answer to the first part of this multiple question is; that they
did have the idea, but did not understand it yet, and certainly they did
want Him to give them that understanding.
q) How could the disciple have asked a question about something they
knew nothing about?
a) Bluntly, this is a deceptive, misleading question: completely
ignoring that the scripture quoted above does reveal that He told them
several times that He must leave them; so they did know about it--they
just did not understand it, yet; so of course they asked.
The Sophist delights in playing word games: beginning a statement or
question with misleading information, then making a statement or asking
misleading, deceptive question based on that fallacy they introduced.
This is a method of Deception, and in fact proves that "Sophistry is not
a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the mind." (Jacques Maritain)
Jesus, The Father and the Holy Spirit hid the meaning of Jesus words
from them for a while. As in: "The words are closed up and sealed..."
Dan 12:9. "Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness
of the Gentiles be come in." Rom 11:25.
However, He promised them understanding. "But the Comforter, which is
the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you
all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have
said unto you." John 14:26
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide
you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
Acts 1:6-8
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord,
wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,
and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
This is a sound foundation for our understanding, and for building
doctrine upon: That the Holy Spirit did come upon the Apostils and call
to their mind everything He taught them. Acts 2:1-4. Therefore we can
know that what they said and wrote after the day of Pentecost is
accurate, and not based on their earlier lack of understanding.
In particular, specifically, the questions they asked in Mat 24:3, and
the answers He gave them, were accurately recorded for us. Luke recorded
that part of His answers which concerned their lifetime and the
destruction of the City and Temple; while Matthew recorded His warning
for us about the Abomination of Desolation and the Tribulation of these
Last Days.
-----
QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount of Olives, why
did Christ warn "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ,
or there; believe it not"? Why can't we believe someone who would say,
"Lo there is Christ descending on the Mount of Olives!"?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #7
If Jesus is going to come down physically on the Mount of Olives, why
did Christ warn "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ,
or there; believe it not" (Matthew 24:23)?
a) This is actually three questions:
First: any question which begins with "if" rejects the scriptural
evidence concerning the subject of the question. First, remove the "if."
Jesus is going to come down onto the Mount of Olives. Zec 14:4, Rev
14:1-5.
q) Why did Christ warn "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is
Christ, or there; believe it not"?
a) He knew some false prophets would claim that He was going to come
more than once, and one such event would be in secret to select a few
chosen people. So He warned us: "Wherefore if they shall say unto you,
Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret
chambers; believe it not." Mat 24:26.
q) Why can't we believe someone who would say, "Lo there is Christ
descending on the Mount of Olives!"?
a) Jesus said, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth
even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For
wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:27-28. (Eagles and vultures gather at the body.)
John said, Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall
wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:7
Isaiah said every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. Isa
45:23 Rom 14:11
a) So, 1) there will be no secret coming of the Lord, and 2) When He
comes every eye will see Him, every knee will bow, every tongue will
confess, and 3) His Elect will be gathered to Him when He comes. Mat
24:29-31, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thes 4:15-17.
q) Can it possibly be because it will be a spiritual coming and not a
physical one?
a) No.
As for using the term "physical;" that word suggests corruptible. See 1
Cor 15:50-54. I favor "eternal body" and literal event.
The Debater delights in playing word games: switching between a
"symbolic" or "literal" to fit his or her needs, or use terms like
"hyperbole" and "metaphor" to obscure or confuse the meaning of
scripture. This proves that "Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a
vicious attitude of the mind." (Jacques Maritain)
-----
QUESTION #8
If heaven and earth did not pass, and if all prophesy has not been
fulfilled, why are you not keeping the Mosaic Law? Jesus said it would
not pass, and must be obeyed, until these things happen.
ANSWER TO QUESTION #8
Passing of Mosaic Law
Matthew 5:17-18, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
a) There are two points in Jesus' statement.
1) He came to fulfill the Law, and
2) "Till heaven and earth pass," the law will not pass away until all is
fulfilled.
This second part has two parts: a) "till heaven and earth pass;" and, b)
"until all is fulfilled." Both parts of this second clause must be
fulfilled before Mosaic Law passes away.
q) Jesus came to fulfill the law. He specifically stated WHEN the Mosaic
Law would pass. It would pass when "heaven and earth pass" and when "all
(prophesy) be fulfilled." If heaven and earth did not pass, or if all
prophesy has not been fulfilled, why, dear reader, are you not keeping
the Mosaic law?
a) The question suffers from serious fallacy, as will be demonstrated.
q) Jesus said it would not pass, and must be obeyed, until these things
happen.
a) Jesus did not say "it would not pass, and must be obeyed," these
words are not in the scripture; they were composed by the person making
this false statement.
My Answer to this Question is in two parts:
Part One, The Gentiles
Part Two, The Jews
Part One, The Gentiles
Some tell us that Jesus meant "until the heaven and earth pass away you
must observe the Law of Moses and offer animal sacrifice for your sins."
Is that what Jesus said?
Jesus statement contains three parts:
a) He came to fulfill the Law
b) Till heaven and earth pass,
c) Not the smallest part of the Law will be removed, till all be fulfilled
It is inferred by His statement, that when all is fulfilled AND heaven
and earth pass away THEN the Law will pass away.
Contrary to Preterist Doctrine,
1) Jesus did fulfill the Law's demand for sacrifice
2) Heaven and earth have NOT passed, and
3) NOT one jot or tittle has passed from the Law
1) "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain
one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, Romans
6:14, Gal 3:13 and 5:18, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not
under the law.
The fact is:
It Was His Death As The Lamb of God Which Removed Us From The Law--not
that a jot or tittle has passed from the law.
The question, "if the Law has not passed, then why aren't you offering
animal sacrifice for you sin" is based on illogic and a wrong
interpretation of His Word.
To attempt to answerer this question one accepts the false premise that
Jesus meant "until the Law pass away you must observe the Law of Moses
and offer animal sacrifice for your sin." And, that for the Law to pass
away the heaven and earth must pass away.
To refute the false premise and wrong interpretation of His Word
contained in that question, one must correct them before attempting to
answer that question. Actually, once the fallacy is exposed and the
wrong assumption corrected, then there is no question.
First, if the assumption were correct, (that the law remained in force
until the heaven and earth passed away [according to Preterism, in AD
70]) then the Gentiles would have been required to keep the Law until
the destruction of Jerusalem.
Contrary to the Preterists fallacy, the Gentiles were never required to
keep the Law of Moses.
Acts 15:1-33, (This is a Must read.)
Luke relates that certain men attempted to get the gentiles to obey the
Law of Moses.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send
chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the
same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no
greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from
things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Note v 24 "Have Troubled You with Words, Subverting Your Souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and Keep The Law: to whom we gave no such
commandment..."
Some men had been attempting (even as some do to this day) to require
others to obey the Law of Moses.
Please note the phrase "and Keep the Law." Up to the time Luke is
describing, the Gentiles had not been required to keep the Law of Moses.
At that time, according to the false Doctrine of the Preterists, the
earth had not "passed away." The heaven and earth had not yet passed
away at the time which the "Acts of the Apostles" was written, and the
Apostles knew of Jesus' words.
Now, the contention of some is that since the earth has not yet passed
away, then the Law is still in force. According to this false
interpretation of Jesus words, the Law of Moses must have been in force
during the time of the writing of the Book of Acts, and when Paul and
Barnabas brought this question to the Apostils in Jerusalem.
Did the Apostles require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses? No! "We
gave no such commandment." v 24.
If the Apostles and Holy Ghost had interpreted Jesus words in the same
way the Preterists do, then they would have answered the same way the
Preterists do: that "you must keep the Law of Moses, be circumcised and
offer animal sacrifice, until the heaven and earth pass."
But, They Did Not!
Conclusion: The Apostles did not tell us that we need to continue to
make animal sacrifices until the earth passed away, because they knew
Jesus did not say that.
Conclusion:
a) Before Salvation came to the Gentiles they were not required to keep
the Law of Moses;
b) Then after Salvation came to the Gentiles, they were not required to
keep the law before AD 70, and were never required (according to Acts
15:1-33) to keep the Law of Moses
c) Therefore, This question is based on fallacy and is an intent to
deceive.
Part Two, The Jews
The question, "If the Law of Moses has not passed away then why don't
you practice animal sacrifice," is based, in the very least, on a fallacy.
It is impossible to answer the question except by allowing the wrong
assumption. The option; is to correct the wrong assumption. Actually,
once the fallacy is exposed, there is no question.
The false assumption is: that the law has passed away, and that that is
why we don't practice animal sacrifice; or, that if the heaven and earth
have not passed away, the Law has not passed, and then we must practice
animal sacrifice. The obvious intent of the question is to convince you
that both the Law and the Heavens and earth passed away in AD 70.
Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say
unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no
wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat. 5:17-18.
His statement has three parts:
a) Till heaven and earth pass
b) One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, c) Till all
be fulfilled
In the context of His speech, "all" includes the prophecies of his
second coming. In direct contradiction of the sophistry on which the
question is based:
1) All Prophecy has NOT been fulfilled
2) Heaven and earth have NOT passed away
3) NOT a jot or a tittle has passed from the Law
His death as the Lamb of God fulfilled the Law's demand for sacrifice.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which
was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"
Colossians 2:14
"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,
but under grace." Romans 6:14, "IFyou are under Grace, you are not under
the Law..."
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Gal 3:13 and 5:18, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the
law." Eph 2:15. "IF you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the
Law..."
The false premise, from which the Preterists begin their question, is
that the ONLY reason we do not practice the Law of Moses and offer
animal sacrifice is because the Law has passed away, and for that to
have occurred, the heaven and earth must also have passed away. This is
delusion.
The Law of Moses is not practiced for two reasons, Because:
a) Faith in Christ's Death as the Lamb of God brings salvation--the Law
does not; and,
b) because Christ fulfilled the demand of the Law for sacrifice, IF you
accept His Sacrifice. Gal. 3:13.
Those who do not accept the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God are still under
the Law, However:
a) God has removed the Temple, and
b) God removed the Levite Priesthood.
Even if a Jew, or any person, wished to obey the Law of Moses, without a
Levite Priest he cannot.
The Preterists begin their false doctrine by basing it on a wrong
interpretation of His Word:
a) That when Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass away until all
is fulfilled..." He could have ONLY been speaking to the men who heard
His words... Mat 24:29.
b) Therefore, (according to Preterism) All prophecy was fulfilled in AD
70; the Lord did come, and heaven and earth (by a mythical definition)
passed away, and therefore The Law has passed.
They use their fallacy (the heavens and earth have passed and all has
been fulfilled) in an attempt to convince you that unless their wrong
assumptions are accepted as true then you must obey the Law of Moses and
replace Christ with animal sacrifice.
Conclusion:
a) The death of the Lamb of God fulfilled the Mosaic Law's demand for
sacrifice, for those who accept Christ as their Messiah.
b) There is no record (that I know of) indicating that Jewish Christians
continued to keep the Law of animal sacrifice after The Lamb of God and
before AD 70.
c) Those who reject Christ cannot keep the Law of Moses because God
removed the Levite Priesthood.
Conclusion:
1) The Apostles and Jewish Christians knew that the death of the Messiah
as the Lamb of God fulfilled the requirement of the Law of Moses for
sacrifice for sin, and the Gentiles were not required to "keep the Law."
Gal. 3:13, Acts 15:1-33.
2) All prophecy has not been fulfilled
3) Heaven and Earth have not passed away
4) not a jot nor a title has passed from the Law.
The Law has not passed away, and still demands sacrifice for sin; and
those who reject the sacrifice of the Lamb of God have no sacrifice for
their sin and cannot fulfill the Mosaic Law.
Conclusion: The Preterists will not accept the Truth that the reason
animal sacrifice is not required is that Jesus fulfilled the Law.
Preterists will continue to insist that the heaven and earth has passed
away (by some mythical definition) and "ALL" has been fulfilled, and
thus the Law has passed away and THAT is why animal sacrifice is not
required. Preterists reject the sacrifice of the Lamb of God as the
reason we are not required to offer animal sacrifice for sin.
-----
QUESTION #9
If Christ was actually in His eternal physical resurrection body, will
we be raised with the same physical body and likeness as Christ was
raised with (1 John 3:2)?
a) Was He physical? Will we have that same physical body?
b) Was He any age? What age? Will we be the same age as Christ?
c) Will we too have scars that we had previously? Christ did.
d) Will we all be raised male? Christ was.
e) What about babies? Will they be raised as babies? Or will all people
suddenly be raised at the prime age of 30 like Christ?
f) What about the food Christ ate? Obviously it took teeth to chew. Did
the food get caught in His teeth? Did it have to go into His colon and
out His *****? Did Christ take that into heaven?
g) Will we have genitalia? Christ did. If you believe that Christ was
raised with the exact same physical body (just eternal now), then you
must believe He still has genitalia.
The Resurrected Body
q) If Christ was actually in His eternal physical resurrection body,
will we be raised with the same physical body and likeness as Christ was
raised with (1 John 3:2)?
a) Here again is a question which begins with "If," indicating that the
question rejects scripture which concerns the body of the question, or
that it is speculation.
1) Was He physical? Will we have that same physical body?
a) We will know when we see Him, although Paul tells us that we will be
transformed or resurrected "incorruptible," and that's enough for me. 1
Cor 15:50-54
2) Was He any age? What age? Will we be the same age as Christ?
a) We will know when we see Him.
3) Will we too have scars that we had previously? Christ did.
a) We will know when we see Him.
4) Will we all be raised male? Christ was.
a) We will know when we see Him.
5) What about babies? Will they be raised as babies? Or will all people
suddenly be raised at the prime age of 30 like Christ?
a) What is the point of this speculation?
6) What about the food Christ ate? Obviously it took teeth to chew. Did
the food get caught in His teeth? Did it have to go into His colon and
out His *****? Did Christ take that into heaven?
a) The point of this speculation is, what?
7) Will we have genitalia? Christ did. If you believe that Christ was
raised with the exact same physical body (just eternal now), then you
must believe He still has genitalia.
a) So what is your point?
God wants us to live by faith, and we cannot know everything, we cannot
have all our questions answered yet. The mystery of God will not be
finished until the Seventh Trumpet sounds.
"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would,
and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be
debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings,
tumults..." 2 Cor 12:20.
These questions serve no purpose but to foment debate and profane and
vain babbling. This vane and profane babble was debated in the early
centuries, and is no less vain and fruitless now than it was then.
----
QUESTION #10:
If the world is destroyed and all sinners are cast into the lake of fire
and the New Jerusalem comes down and is a physical city, then who are
the sinners outside the gates of the city?
ANSWER TO QUESTION #10:
Actually, this is several questions.
q) If the world is destroyed and all sinners are cast into the lake of
fire ... ?
a) A question beginning with "if" indicates that the questioner has
rejected scriptural evidence which concerns the subject of the question.
First, remove the "if."
The world is destroyed and all sinners are cast into the lake of fire. 2
Peter 3:3-12, Hab 3:6, Na 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills
melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all
that dwell therein.
Mat 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul
and body in hell. Rev 19:21, 20:9-15.
q) Then who are the sinners outside the gates of the city (Revelation
22:14-15)?
a) Those that are "outside the city" are outside heaven, separated from
God; dead, in hell. Rev 19:11-21, 20:9-15. See the sixth Seal, Seventh
Trumpet and Vial, Mat 24:29-31.
The Preterist delights in playing word games: switching between
"symbolic" and "literal" meanings to fit his or her needs, or use terms
like "hyperbole" and "metaphor" when it seems possible for them to take
the intended meaning of scripture away from His People. This proves that
"Sophistry is not a system of ideas, but a vicious attitude of the
mind." (Jacques Maritain)
God wants us to live by faith, and His Mystery will not be finished
until the seventh Trumpet is sounded. We cannot know everything, we
cannot have all our questions answered, yet. All we have concerning the
nature of Heaven and the Heavenly City is given in Scripture, and we
must wait for our many questions to be answered.
The planet earth and the universe are destroyed when He comes. 2 Peter
3:3-12, Hab 3:6, Na 1:5, and others. Rev 19:21, 20:9-15; see the Sixth
Seal, Seventh Seal, Trumpet and Vial.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and
strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9.
2 Cor 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as
I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest
there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings,
swellings, tumults:
2 Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase
unto more ungodliness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is much better to read and study His Word, and learn the
Truth of what is in His Word, than it is to study misleading questions
and false doctrine. If we learn His Word, then we will recognize the
lies when they are presented to us.
It is important, also, to learn something of "right thinking" or Logic
and the Fallacies used by liars and deceivers, so I suggest:
"The Importance of Being Able to Reason," http://tinyurl.com/hu9qe
--
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: A PRETERIST QUESTIONS (Answered) |
31 Jan 2008 06:56:27 PM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:09:43 -0800, Glenn
<gamcclary@spiritone.com> spake thusly:
A PRETERIST QUESTIONS (Answered)
I have a question, Glenn. Why do you keep posting
misrepresentations of what Preterism states and
then completely ignore the response from a Preterist,
who surely knows his/her own doctrine better than
you and the Futurist web site that you copy from,
that misrepresents Preterism in their ignorance of it,
while pretending they are accurately representing it?
First, a comment or two: When someone asks me
a question or makes a statement about scripture
....you ignore it when it contradicts your own personal
doctrine, which is based on your claim that you cannot
be wrong, which you have said and which is based on
the daily news!
and gives scripture to support their question or statement,
I ALWAYS (and so should you) examine the scripture to see
if the reference is accurate or appropriate. Acts 17:10-11.
No you don't and I have proved that! In fact, when
I successfully proved to you that both Jesus and the
Apostles taught a return of Christ within that same
generation and you demanded proof (which means
you didn't know it was there, which means that you
obviously do not study Scripture and rather, seek out
passages that you think say what you already assumed
to be true before even looking), you confessed to me
that I had proved my case and your response to their
statements in Scripture, was to tell me flat out that
THE APOSTLES WERE WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT!!!
And when you denied saying it, after snipping it out
from my response to your claim and I showed you
that you did indeed confess this, you claimed that
this subject, "is not that important anyway", just as
all Futurists do, when confronted with the facts!
So now you believe that the Apostles were wrong
about the second most important and second most
discussed subject in the New Testament and that
we should listen to your claims and believe them!
1) Now the fact is, that if it "is not that important",
then why do you spend all of your time on usenet,
posting about that very subject?!
2) How is it that all of the Christians stores devote
so much shelf space to a subject that isn't that
important anyway?
3) How is it that you think that it isn't that important
anyway (we both know you're lying about that),
when the Apostles spent so much time on it and
more important than that... How is it that you can
claim that they were wrong about the second most
talked about subject in the New Testament and yet,
also claim that we are supposed to be able to trust
our Bibles?!
The truth is, if they taught this doctrine erroneously,
as you claim they did, then they were not trustworthy
and we need to chuck our Bibles! And we all know
that you and every other Christian knows that if the
Bible contains grievous doctrinal errors like this,
that the Bible is no longer trustworthy!
And yet, you would quote the following passage...
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly
equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Now the fact is that:
1) In order to be profitable for doctrine, it has to be
doctrinally sound!
2) In order to "reprove", it has to be true!
3) In order TO correct, it must BE correct!
4) In order to be able to INSTRUCT in righteousness,
it has to BE right!
5) In order to make the man of God complete
and thoroughly equipped for every good work,
it must be THOROUGHLY CORRECT!!!
But you have by your own words in more than
one post, confessed that you believe that you
are right and that Jesus and the Apostles were
wrong! And yes, I CAN, AGAIN, post your
words here for you!!!
Next, I consider the question to see if it is Logical
and Reasonable, or if it contains flaws
You mean that you see if it lines up with your preassumed
doctrine and if it doesn't, you claim it is not logical and
even when shown that it is, you still ignore it and attack
the person on a personal level, to try to distract people
from what you are doing!
I am far from expert in the practice of logic
And yet, you claim ot be able to criticize everyone else!
The 10 Questions
QUESTION #1
Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire...
Why would anyone need healing if they are now
in eternal bliss?
ANSWER:
Actually this is several questions.
q) Assuming the earth will be destroyed with fire,
and all the nations of the earth will be destroyed
along with it; then, when the "New Earth" or
"New Jerusalem" comes, why will the nations need
healing? How can you heal something that is already
dead and burned?
a) A question beginning with "Assuming," is beginning
with the rejection of the scriptural evidence relating to
the subject of the question.
In other words, you're going to try to talk around it!
First; remove "assuming..."
"The earth will be destroyed with fire..."
"The world is destroyed in fervent heat"
and all who reject God, and His Sacrificial
Lamb, are cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 19:17-20, 20:11-15.
And there it is! Thank you for proving my point!
Your response is to say; "We're right, it's going
to happen, so I get to ignore your question!".
Concerning the healing: Revelation 22:1-5.
This is a Symbolic depiction of something
we will not fully understand until That Day,
the day when the purpose of God is completed.
In other words, YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER
and you think that means that you have answered it!
DUH!!! IDIOT!!!
The fact is, a question was presented to you and
instead of impressing us with your supposed,
"proof that Preterism is a lie facts", your response
is to say;
"Preterism is a lie and the Bible proves that!
Oh, your question??? Oh, I don't have an
answer. But Preterism is still wrong and
my saying so proves it!"
Now here's the facts, Glenn! ...
If it is this "new heaven and earth" scenario that
you claim is literal (while trying to claim parts
are symbolic, even though you read it literally)
and people have their new, "super, sci-fi, live
forever, physical bodies" and there is no more
pain, nor death, nor suffering, then there would
be NO REASON AT ALL for a "healing tree"!
And since you claim that it will all be "Paradise",
there would be NO NEED to "heal the nations",
as it says that it does!
BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, GLENNY BOY ...
YOU HAVE AGAIN DUCKED THIS QUESTION AND
THINK THAT YOUR DOUBLE TALK IS PROOF THAT
YOU ARE RIGHT AND PRETERISM IS WRONG!!
NEWS FLASH GLENN: SAYING THAT YOU DON'T
HAVE AND ANSWER, IS NOT PROOF THAT YOU
HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTION AND IT IS NOT
PROOF THAT PRETERISM IS WRONG!
RATHER GLENN, IT IS PROOF THAT YOU RECOGNIZE
THAT YOUR DOCTRINE HAS A SERIOUS CONTRADICTION
THAT YOU CANNOT ANSWER TO AND EXPLAIN AWAY!!!
<snip>
No need to repeat myself for the other "questions".
but thank you Glenn, for again showing that you know
that your Futurist doctrine cannot answer the obvious
problems with the Futurist doctrine, that are revealed
by these questions!
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die
so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa
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| User: "Randy ®" |
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| Title: Re: A PRETERIST QUESTIONS (Answered) |
01 Feb 2008 08:41:54 AM |
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On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:56:27 -0500,
in article <vsp4q35rmdrt44g79e1ut6di5oopqgh4cu@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
I have a question, Glenn. Why do you keep posting
misrepresentations of what Preterism states and
then completely ignore the response from a Preterist,
who surely knows his/her own doctrine better than
you and the Futurist web site that you copy from,
that misrepresents Preterism in their ignorance of it,
while pretending they are accurately representing it?
Do you have no shame? That's exactly what you do on a daily
basis.
First, you consistently misrepresent what futurists believe,
claiming, for example, they teach that Christ will be booted
off his thrown, and that Satan will take over again, when they
teach no such thing.
Then, you constantly attack futurists on a doctrinal and
personal level, every single day, and it can be documented in
the thousands of articles. But then, the minute anyone does
anything short of agree with your exact preterist script, you
start playing the victim, and accusing people of attacking you
personally.
Second, you gladly entertain any moron for as long as you
think it's making you or your desired interpretation of the
Bible look good. The minute you start getting your *****
kicked, you immediately slap people in a kill-file, with a
batch of lies about how they snipped everything you wrote, and
are therefore too dishonest to communicate with, or other
endless distractions, even when they document they didn't snip
a single word.
You couldn't be more of an arrogant, bold-faced, shameless
liar, in my estimation.
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.
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