| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bill M" |
| Date: |
24 Dec 2006 03:29:05 PM |
| Object: |
A SIMPLE GOD QUESTION |
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real gods exist?
The Bibles and other Holy books are no more than the words, opinions, myths,
fables and implausible tales and contradictions of ancient men of totally
unknown veracity. Why should we base our lives on this totally unreliable
and unverifiable information?
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence supplied by ANY Gods? If
there is a REAL God why does he not directly confirm his existence, wishes
and commands to all his creations in some direct reliable and understandable
manner?
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of man???
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
31 Dec 2006 11:34:51 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
Martin
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
01 Jan 2007 02:03:23 PM |
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"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167629691.268164.90230@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would follow
the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric hospitals
and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which allows such
deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would be
no freedoms.
Dan Wood
Martin
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
02 Jan 2007 02:34:46 PM |
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"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
03 Jan 2007 04:25:25 AM |
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Weatherwax skrev:
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined by
"Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George Orwell was
inspired by the Catholic Church when he described the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
03 Jan 2007 07:04:44 AM |
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"thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk> wrote
Weatherwax skrev:
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined
by "Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George
Orwell was inspired by the Catholic Church when he described
the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
I have heard the same argument on alt.bible. They claim that we have the
freedom to do what is right, or what is wrong. But if we do what is wrong,
we get punished for it. That is Freedom?
--Wax
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
04 Jan 2007 06:56:03 PM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk> wrote
Weatherwax skrev:
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined
by "Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George
Orwell was inspired by the Catholic Church when he described
the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
I have heard the same argument on alt.bible. They claim that we have the
freedom to do what is right, or what is wrong. But if we do what is wrong,
we get punished for it. That is Freedom?
--Wax
Well, if you see a highway sign that indicates a curve in the road, you
are free to speed up, slow down, or maintain the same speed you are
going. Just because there are consequences to the decision you make
does not mean you are not free. It is just a fact that a person who
slows down when he sees the sign is likely to live longer than a person
who decides to speed up. This may seem unfair to the person who wants
to believe that all speeds should be rewarded the same, but it is true
nevertheless.
Robert B. Winn
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
04 Jan 2007 07:25:37 PM |
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<rbwinn3@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1167958563.667532.12060@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Weatherwax wrote:
"thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk> wrote
Weatherwax skrev:
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to
psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined
by "Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George
Orwell was inspired by the Catholic Church when he described
the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
I have heard the same argument on alt.bible. They claim that we have
the
freedom to do what is right, or what is wrong. But if we do what is
wrong,
we get punished for it. That is Freedom?
--Wax
Well, if you see a highway sign that indicates a curve in the road, you
are free to speed up, slow down, or maintain the same speed you are
going. Just because there are consequences to the decision you make
does not mean you are not free. It is just a fact that a person who
slows down when he sees the sign is likely to live longer than a person
who decides to speed up. This may seem unfair to the person who wants
to believe that all speeds should be rewarded the same, but it is true
nevertheless.
Robert B. Winn
Excellent point!
It seems that some people want freedom without any consequences from
their actions or the responsibility for their decisions.
Dan Wood, DDS
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
05 Jan 2007 03:44:21 PM |
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On 4 Jan 2007 16:56:03 -0800, wrote:
Well, if you see a highway sign that indicates a curve in the road, you
are free to speed up, slow down, or maintain the same speed you are
going. Just because there are consequences
So you're saying that even though we're not free to keep going at the
same speed in the same direction WITHOUT crashing through the guard
rail, we ARE free to do so.
Typical Christian "black is white" rhetoric.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
03 Jan 2007 06:57:34 AM |
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On 3 Jan 2007 02:25:25 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk>
wrote:
Weatherwax skrev:
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would
follow the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric
hospitals and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which
allows such deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would
be no freedoms.
What freedoms are promised by religion? I don't know of any.
--Wax
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined by
"Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George Orwell was
inspired by the Catholic Church when he described the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
"Arbeit makt Frei"
.
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| User: "Kope" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
04 Jan 2007 12:03:12 AM |
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i am a radical muslim please read my blog.
http://www.xanga.com/hfghj23458654fgha
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
05 Jan 2007 03:45:29 PM |
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On 3 Jan 2007 02:25:25 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk>
wrote:
Apologists for religion very often define words in unique ways. I
remember as a teenager learning from a priest that freedom was the
right to do what you should - "should", of course, being determined by
"Holy Mother the Church". I have often thought that George Orwell was
inspired by the Catholic Church when he described the world of "1984".
Remember "Freedom is Slavery".
He was describing Communism, but there's scant difference between
Communism and the Abrahamic religions.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
01 Jan 2007 06:26:34 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167629691.268164.90230@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would follow
the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric hospitals
and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which allows such
deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would be
no freedoms.
===>Ah, so you believe there was freedom when Christians were in power?
How naive! -- L.
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
01 Jan 2007 07:05:03 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:BYGdnRwCKJoxOwTYnZ2dnUVZ_szinZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167629691.268164.90230@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would follow
the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric hospitals
and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which allows such
deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would be
no freedoms.
===>Ah, so you believe there was freedom when Christians were in power?
How naive! -- L.
And where have I made or even implied any such sentiment? You're just
making stuff up and applying it to me without any justification
what-so-ever.
I don't want Christians in power any more than I want Moslems to be.
Dan Wood
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
01 Jan 2007 10:37:53 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:BYGdnRwCKJoxOwTYnZ2dnUVZ_szinZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167629691.268164.90230@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would follow
the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric hospitals
and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which allows such
deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would be
no freedoms.
===>Ah, so you believe there was freedom when Christians were in power?
How naive! -- L.
And where have I made or even implied any such sentiment?
===>With your above expression of "no doubt".
I asked you whether you believe there was freedom when Christians were
in power.
You're just
making stuff up and applying it to me without any justification
what-so-ever.
I don't want Christians in power any more than I want Moslems to be.
===>That is very nice of you. -- L.
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| User: "Merovingian" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
02 Jan 2007 07:07:45 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167629691.268164.90230@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:7s6dnc4z5tMrowXYnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
===>Not expecting any logic from a believer,
So not you feel compelled to insult the opposition. I didn't
expect this of you. You disappoint me.
===>Whatever they "bring back" or not, in fact NOWHERE is there any
"room for a creator" -- except in the minds of brainwashed
believers living by "faith", like permanently hypnotized
stage subjects.
Do you have to resort to insulting me
If a psychiatrist makes a diagnosis and declares a patient mentally ill
do you think that is an insult? Face the fact that you are suffering
from a condition known as "theism" which makes it difficult for you to
think. You should practice thinking at least once a day and I promise
you your condition will improve. :)
You sound like a true Marxist - Leninist, I don't doubt you would follow
the old communist practice of confining theist to psychiatric hospitals
and even have surgeons cut away brain tissues which allows such
deviate behavior as protesting your party line.
I certainlly hope people like you _never_ gain power. there would be
no freedoms.
Dan Wood
Martin
I believe in freedom of insanity/religion whatever you want to call
it...But there is a valid argument for the institutionalization of
people who have dillusions and hallucinations of devils and
angels...People prone to these dillusions are often violent and down
right dangerous. Treatment alternatives should be, researched, and
applied so that these individuals suffering from this disease can be
rehabilitated...This would also reduce the number of healthy children
that are being exposed to this infectious disease.
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| User: "Larry" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 02:11:52 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Some Christians can and do believe that God has
always existed, even though there is no good evidence
to support the claim. The existence of the universe
however is not evidence for said God. If God did
not need a creator then neither did the universe.
Now we do have good evidence that at one
time all the matter in the universe was in a very small
volume which expanded rapidly, otherwise known as
the big-bang, however we do not know whether matter
or energy was created shortly before that time or not.
In either case, you cannot claim that there must be a
cause for every effect, and then excuse God from being one
of the things, it is special pleading.
Larry
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
29 Dec 2006 12:16:38 AM |
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"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167336712.707143.120130@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Some Christians can and do believe that God has
always existed,
I know of only one group who believes that God has not
always existed - Mormons. They believe God was once a
man who through some progression reached Godhood.
I just learned this. Each man potentially is a god in
embryo
even though there is no good evidence
to support the claim.
Apart from the Bible? The Bible advocates an eternal God.
The existence of the universe
however is not evidence for said God.
Not in and of itself.
If God did not need a creator then neither did the
universe.
If God existed forever, he could not have had a creator.
The universe has not existed forever, it had a beginning.
This by itself does not necessarily require a creator,
but, it certainly does not rule out or preclude the
possibility of a creator.
Now we do have good evidence that at one
time all the matter in the universe was in a very small
volume which expanded rapidly, otherwise known as
the big-bang, however we do not know whether matter
or energy was created shortly before that time or not.
This is true of energy, but in the case of matter, prior
to the formation of first generation of stars which
produced heavy elements through iron, and supernovas
which produced the heavier elements, there was a quark
soup from which hydrogen, helium and some deuterium
was derived.
In either case, you cannot claim that there must be a
cause for every effect, and then excuse God from being one
of the things, it is special pleading.
I do not see my argument as special pleading. To do so
I would have to exclude unfavorable details and bring
in new and unwarented details. This, I have not done.
In order for you to make your case for special pleading,
you would have to show where the details you insist upon
are valid, and the details I bring to the table are not.
You so far have not proven your case.
Regards,
Dan
Larry
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
29 Dec 2006 10:49:27 AM |
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Dan Wood <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote:
I know of only one group who believes that God has not
always existed - Mormons. They believe God was once a
man who through some progression reached Godhood.
I just learned this. Each man potentially is a god in
embryo
Yup, but only guys can become gods, not women. Women's only purpose is
to pump out a never ending stream of more little gods.
Nice religion, eh?
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
29 Dec 2006 03:13:08 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167336712.707143.120130@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Some Christians can and do believe that God has
always existed,
I know of only one group who believes that God has not
always existed - Mormons. They believe God was once a
man who through some progression reached Godhood.
I just learned this. Each man potentially is a god in
embryo
even though there is no good evidence
to support the claim.
Apart from the Bible? The Bible advocates an eternal God.
The existence of the universe
however is not evidence for said God.
Not in and of itself.
If God did not need a creator then neither did the
universe.
If God existed forever, he could not have had a creator.
The universe has not existed forever,
===>The universe from which our solar system and
our planet evolved already existed.
The substance out of which our local universe
emerged already existed.
The universe of today is not the same as that of
yesterday. You can take any point in the process
and call it the "beginning". It is similar to the argument
of when human life begins. At birth? At the point of
the formation of the zygote? At the point of fertilization?
Did the ovum and sperm not already exist?...
"Beginning" is just an arbitrary point in the process
of eternal formation and transformation of all that
has always existed.
Postulating an imaginary entity that pre-existed and "created"
the eternal cosmic process is just absurd.
Of course in the context of Christian dogma,
in the FICTIONAL, IMAGINARY universe of Christianity,
in which it is simply asserted that an uncreated creator exists,
such a being does exist, just like the WIZARD
exists in the Land of OZ in the universe created by
the author of the Wizard of OZ. -- L.
.
|
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
30 Dec 2006 01:30:42 AM |
|
|
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:UuKdnY8shrF9GQjYnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167336712.707143.120130@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Some Christians can and do believe that God has
always existed,
I know of only one group who believes that God has not
always existed - Mormons. They believe God was once a
man who through some progression reached Godhood.
I just learned this. Each man potentially is a god in
embryo
even though there is no good evidence
to support the claim.
Apart from the Bible? The Bible advocates an eternal God.
The existence of the universe
however is not evidence for said God.
Not in and of itself.
If God did not need a creator then neither did the
universe.
If God existed forever, he could not have had a creator.
The universe has not existed forever,
===>The universe from which our solar system and
our planet evolved already existed.
The substance out of which our local universe
emerged already existed.
You seem to be saying, here that our sun and the 9
planets (rather 8 now) is the totality of our universe?
No, our solar system, our Milky Way Galaxie, the
Andromeda and the other billions of galaxies are all
part of the Universe. But you are right about our
solar system being made up of dust and debris
from earlier generation(s) of stars that exploded.
All had a beginning in the Big Bang.
The universe of today is not the same as that of
yesterday. You can take any point in the process
and call it the "beginning". It is similar to the argument
of when human life begins. At birth? At the point of
the formation of the zygote? At the point of fertilization?
Did the ovum and sperm not already exist?...
This has nothing to do with the topic it's a non-sequitur
"Beginning" is just an arbitrary point in the process
of eternal formation and transformation of all that
has always existed.
False. The solar system had a beginning some 13.7
- 15 billion years ago
Postulating an imaginary entity that pre-existed and "created"
the eternal cosmic process is just absurd.
Not nearly as absurd as the stuff you are putting forth.
The universe had a beginning at the big bang. You
can't deal with it!
Of course in the context of Christian dogma,
in the FICTIONAL, IMAGINARY universe of Christianity,
in which it is simply asserted that an uncreated creator exists,
such a being does exist, just like the WIZARD
exists in the Land of OZ in the universe created by
the author of the Wizard of OZ. -- L.
I'm certain that Christians see the same universe
as no-Christians live within. It's nothing imaginary
about it.
I fear that you have gone off the deep end! Is it so
difficult for you to come to grips with the fact
that the universe had a beginning rather than
trying to redefine what it means. You are deliberately
employing obfustration.
I appreciate your thoughts, but I've grown weary of
the hyperbole.
Dan
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
30 Dec 2006 04:19:55 PM |
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|
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:UuKdnY8shrF9GQjYnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167336712.707143.120130@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Dan Wood wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote in message
news:Spadnb7muK2TkQnYnZ2dnUVZ_qemnZ2d@comcast.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
snip
You keep saying nothing can _come_ into being.....
This misses the point. God did _NOT_ come into being:
he always existed, He is the eternal God, according to their
beliefs. which are based upon their Bible.
Some Christians can and do believe that God has
always existed,
I know of only one group who believes that God has not
always existed - Mormons. They believe God was once a
man who through some progression reached Godhood.
I just learned this. Each man potentially is a god in
embryo
even though there is no good evidence
to support the claim.
Apart from the Bible? The Bible advocates an eternal God.
The existence of the universe
however is not evidence for said God.
Not in and of itself.
If God did not need a creator then neither did the
universe.
If God existed forever, he could not have had a creator.
The universe has not existed forever,
===>The universe from which our solar system and
our planet evolved already existed.
The substance out of which our local universe
emerged already existed.
You seem to be saying, here that our sun and the 9
planets (rather 8 now) is the totality of our universe?
===>No, I did not say that at all.
I just tried to call youe attention to the fact that
you can possibly point to has come freom nothing.
No, our solar system, our Milky Way Galaxie, the
Andromeda and the other billions of galaxies are all
part of the Universe. But you are right about our
solar system being made up of dust and debris
from earlier generation(s) of stars that exploded.
All had a beginning in the Big Bang.
===>Only our local "universe", one of the infinite number
of "universes" MAY POSSIBLE have begun with something like
a "Big Bang", but if if that is correct, there was SOMETHING
that "banged", not "nothing".
And the postulate that some extra-cosmic super-natural
"uncaused creator" made it "bang" is just a superfluous,
unnecessary and impossible speculation. Intelligence is
an emergent phenomenon of nature, not something that just
"happened".
The universe of today is not the same as that of
yesterday. You can take any point in the process
and call it the "beginning". It is similar to the argument
of when human life begins. At birth? At the point of
the formation of the zygote? At the point of fertilization?
Did the ovum and sperm not already exist?...
This has nothing to do with the topic it's a non-sequitur
===>Just because it is over your head?
"Beginning" is just an arbitrary point in the process
of eternal formation and transformation of all that
has always existed.
False. The solar system had a beginning some 13.7
- 15 billion years ago
===>Really?
Where did you get that information?
Postulating an imaginary entity that pre-existed and "created"
the eternal cosmic process is just absurd.
Not nearly as absurd as the stuff you are putting forth.
The universe had a beginning at the big bang. You
can't deal with it!
===>That is just a naive cliche.
EVERYTHING had a "beginning" when it became what it is
or was.
Of course in the context of Christian dogma,
in the FICTIONAL, IMAGINARY universe of Christianity,
in which it is simply asserted that an uncreated creator exists,
such a being does exist, just like the WIZARD
exists in the Land of OZ in the universe created by
the author of the Wizard of OZ. -- L.
I'm certain that Christians see the same universe
as no-Christians live within. It's nothing imaginary
about it.
===>They imagine it to be something other than what
it really is.
I fear that you have gone off the deep end! Is it so
difficult for you to come to grips with the fact
that the universe had a beginning rather than
trying to redefine what it means. You are deliberately
employing obfustration.
I appreciate your thoughts, but I've grown weary of
the hyperbole.
===>I see this is all over your head.
Too bad. -- L.
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 08:01:28 AM |
|
|
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:30 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:nmc6p2hgeegmmlhi6h5q1m31e87bqj838f@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:17:12 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of
man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God.And that God was created by an even more
powerful God.And that God was created by an even more powerful God.And
that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God. etc.
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
this is the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
Scientist until recient very recient history thought the Universe
was eternal, without a beginning. If the universe had no beginning,
then it could _not_ have been created. If otoh, the universe had a
beginning, then and only then could there be room for a creator.
If God had a beginning only then could he have been created.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
If God had a beginning, then the question would be how did he
begin; or who or what caused him to come into being.
But from Jewish and Christian prospectives, God did not come
into existance, he always existed.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
You're not getting it, are you? Look, to say that everything
but god was created is a gigantic special pleading fallacy. That's
something the people positing said god need to clear up.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
|
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 12:42:22 PM |
|
|
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:2gj7p2p3ccdo0agmkvu5fmdo1curd6r0hl@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:30 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:nmc6p2hgeegmmlhi6h5q1m31e87bqj838f@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:17:12 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real
gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of
man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God
was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God.And that God was created by an even more
powerful God.And that God was created by an even more powerful
God.And
that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God. etc.
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
this is the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
Scientist until recient very recient history thought the Universe
was eternal, without a beginning. If the universe had no beginning,
then it could _not_ have been created. If otoh, the universe had a
beginning, then and only then could there be room for a creator.
If God had a beginning only then could he have been created.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
If God had a beginning, then the question would be how did he
begin; or who or what caused him to come into being.
But from Jewish and Christian prospectives, God did not come
into existance, he always existed.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
You're not getting it, are you?
Maybe not. Nevertheless, in my opinion the real issue is
not being confronted by those who choose to challenge
the existance of the Judo-Christian God by the "turtles
argument". It's gods all the way up - or is it down? Jews
and Christians look to their Bible, for their views regarding
God. When the Bible clearly states repeatedly that God
is the eternal God, he had no beginning, God always was
and always will be. It's futile to challenge them by this
strawman (god little g) who you say is not eternal.
Look, to say that everything
but god was created is a gigantic special pleading fallacy. That's
something the people positing said god need to clear up.
You must face the fact that if God had no starting point,
he could not have had a starter.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 12:49:29 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:42:22 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in
<4eUkh.10534$n57.4001@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:2gj7p2p3ccdo0agmkvu5fmdo1curd6r0hl@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:30 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:nmc6p2hgeegmmlhi6h5q1m31e87bqj838f@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:17:12 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real
gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of
man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God
was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God.And that God was created by an even more
powerful God.And that God was created by an even more powerful
God.And
that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God. etc.
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
this is the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
Scientist until recient very recient history thought the Universe
was eternal, without a beginning. If the universe had no beginning,
then it could _not_ have been created. If otoh, the universe had a
beginning, then and only then could there be room for a creator.
If God had a beginning only then could he have been created.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
If God had a beginning, then the question would be how did he
begin; or who or what caused him to come into being.
But from Jewish and Christian prospectives, God did not come
into existance, he always existed.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
You're not getting it, are you?
Maybe not. Nevertheless, in my opinion the real issue is
not being confronted by those who choose to challenge
the existance of the Judo-Christian God by the "turtles
argument". It's gods all the way up - or is it down? Jews
and Christians look to their Bible, for their views regarding
God. When the Bible clearly states repeatedly that God
is the eternal God, he had no beginning, God always was
and always will be. It's futile to challenge them by this
strawman (god little g) who you say is not eternal.
Why would anyone accept the claims in this holy book?
Look, to say that everything
but god was created is a gigantic special pleading fallacy. That's
something the people positing said god need to clear up.
You must face the fact that if God had no starting point,
he could not have had a starter.
So, that argument appears to prove that no gods exist.
.
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 01:17:36 PM |
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|
Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
Why would anyone accept the claims in this holy book?
That's a reasonable question for you and I, but you have to look at it
from the religionist's point of view. They aren't ALLOWED to question
the validity of the claims in their holy books, be it the Bible or the
Koran. Otherwise, the whole house of cards collapses.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 06:05:57 PM |
|
|
Scott Richter wrote:
Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
Why would anyone accept the claims in this holy book?
That's a reasonable question for you and I, but you have to look at it
from the religionist's point of view. They aren't ALLOWED to question
the validity of the claims in their holy books, be it the Bible or the
Koran. Otherwise, the whole house of cards collapses.
===>They don't know it, but they live by the principle:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH. -- L.
.
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| User: "Merovingian" |
|
| Title: Re: God Could Not Have been Created(wasA SIMPLE GOD QUESTION) |
28 Dec 2006 09:41:59 PM |
|
|
Free Lunch wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:42:22 -0500, in alt.atheism
"Dan Wood" <drwood@bellsouth.net> wrote in
<4eUkh.10534$n57.4001@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:2gj7p2p3ccdo0agmkvu5fmdo1curd6r0hl@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:30 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:nmc6p2hgeegmmlhi6h5q1m31e87bqj838f@4ax.com...
In alt.atheism On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:17:12 -0500, "Dan Wood"
<drwood@bellsouth.net> let us all know that:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real
gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of
man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God
was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God.And that God was created by an even more
powerful God.And that God was created by an even more powerful
God.And
that God was created by an even more powerful God.And that God was
created by an even more powerful God.And that God was created by an
even more powerful God. etc.
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
this is the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
Scientist until recient very recient history thought the Universe
was eternal, without a beginning. If the universe had no beginning,
then it could _not_ have been created. If otoh, the universe had a
beginning, then and only then could there be room for a creator.
If God had a beginning only then could he have been created.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
If God had a beginning, then the question would be how did he
begin; or who or what caused him to come into being.
But from Jewish and Christian prospectives, God did not come
into existance, he always existed.
That brings up the question "why wasn't god created?"
You're not getting it, are you?
Maybe not. Nevertheless, in my opinion the real issue is
not being confronted by those who choose to challenge
the existance of the Judo-Christian God by the "turtles
argument". It's gods all the way up - or is it down? Jews
and Christians look to their Bible, for their views regarding
God. When the Bible clearly states repeatedly that God
is the eternal God, he had no beginning, God always was
and always will be. It's futile to challenge them by this
strawman (god little g) who you say is not eternal.
Why would anyone accept the claims in this holy book?
Look, to say that everything
but god was created is a gigantic special pleading fallacy. That's
something the people positing said god need to clear up.
You must face the fact that if God had no starting point,
he could not have had a starter.
So, that argument appears to prove that no gods exist.
The old chicken or the egg question...Man has been creating
explainations for the things he does not have knowledge to understand
since he became able to communicate with others of his species. As the
population becomes more inquisitive and educated...another God appears
to fill the void. The Judeo christian gods are simply a masterpiece of
mans creativity, in the sense that they create a maze with no beginning
or ending. The reader simply finds himself going around in circles.
If something bad happens..."God works in mysterious ways"...If
something good happens " Praise the lord"...If we dont have the
answer (and sometimes even when we do have a logical explaination) "God
made it that way"..a perfect fornication of the mind.
The testimonials of faith in which man defies the odds of
success...simply encourages the faithful to attempt things they
normally would not risk...Occasionally he gets lucky...or overcomes
through determination. Again they hail Gods power as the reason.
.
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| User: "Larry" |
|
| Title: Re: A SIMPLE GOD QUESTION - A SIMPLE ANSWER |
27 Dec 2006 11:29:29 PM |
|
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful etc.
snip
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
What Duke was alluding to is the 1st cause argument. For this
argument to be valid, it must hold no matter what the circumstance,
even when matter and energy did not exist. What the people
who parrot this argument fail to see is that if this cause and effect
must be true no matter what the circumstance, then it must also be
true for God, that is, God too must have a creator etc.
Theists of coarse claim that God is special, which is simply the
logical
fallacy of special pleading. To say that God is eternal is simply
to deny that cause and effect apply to him without any support, special
pleading. If God can exist without a cause so can the universe.
Larry
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| User: "Dan Wood" |
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| Title: Re: A SIMPLE GOD QUESTION - A SIMPLE ANSWER |
28 Dec 2006 11:30:25 AM |
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"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167283769.554082.107030@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167171920.551043.10700@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
duke wrote:
On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:29:05 -0500, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Where is there ANY objective verifiable evidence that ANY real gods
exist?
The big bang.
Can it be that he does not exist except in the imaginations of
man???
ONly if you profess matter and energy created themselves.
Welcome to God almighty.
Who was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful God.
And that God was created by an even more powerful etc.
snip
You would have to ascribe to God something that theist do not.
You would have to say that God is transient, an ad interim being,
the opposite of eternal. No theist believes this.
What Duke was alluding to is the 1st cause argument. For this
argument to be valid, it must hold no matter what the circumstance,
even when matter and energy did not exist.
I understood his argument. But here the first cause argument applied
to the universe, since the universe had a beginning. The first cause
does not apply to God, since God is without beginning and without
an end, he exist forever according to the Judeo-Christian tradition.
For Duke's argument to work it must deal with the actual Judeo-
Christian belief. Not with a god (little g) that does not conform
to the their belief.
What the people
who parrot this argument fail to see is that if this cause and effect
must be true no matter what the circumstance,
If the scientific theory, the "steady state universe", of Fred Hoyle,
and Thomas Gold were true, then the universe had no beginning,
it had no starting point, therefore there would be no need for a
first cause argument. If there was no start then there's no starter?
then it must also be
true for God, that is, God too must have a creator etc.
Only if God had a beginning. Which those "parroting" the argument
believe God is without beginning and without end - he is eternal.
Theists of coarse claim that God is special, which is simply the
logical fallacy of special pleading. To say that God is eternal is simply
to deny that cause and effect apply to him without any support, special
pleading.
Their Bible states many timers that God is without beginning and
without end, God is the Eternal God. So, as far as they are
concerned this _is_ support.
If God can exist without a cause so can the universe.
The problem is: one must deal with actuality. Christians and
Jews for eons believed God is eternal, from everlasting to
everlasting, but the universe had a beginning - the universe
was created. IoW
God existed from infinity.
The universe had a beginning point.
Like it or not, and many people do not, but modern science
has confirmed that the universe started out with the Big Bang.
The Universe had a beginning.
But if the universe was without a beginning, you would be exactly right.
But the recient scientific evidence gives strong support of a
universe with a beginning. The universe began with the Big Bang.
Dan Wood, DDs
..
Larry
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| User: "Larry" |
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| Title: Re: A SIMPLE GOD QUESTION - A SIMPLE ANSWER |
28 Dec 2006 04:24:04 PM |
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Dan Wood wrote:
"Larry" <lseib@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote in message
news:1167283769.554082.107030@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
What the people
who parrot this argument fail to see is that if this cause and effect
must be true no matter what the circumstance,
If the scientific theory, the "steady state universe", of Fred Hoyle,
and Thomas Gold were true, then the universe had no beginning,
it had no starting point, therefore there would be no need for a
first cause argument. If there was no start then there's no starter?
Either everything follows the law of cause and effect or it does not.
If the universe had no beginnig, then it does not follow the law
of cause and effect, so NOT ALL things follow the law
of cause and effect.
If God is eternal, then God does not follow the law of cause and
effect, so NOT ALL things follow the law
of cause and effect.
You cannot argue that ALL THINGS follow the law of cause and
effect and then make an exception.
Larry
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