Glenn (oldwetdog),
Here is another post for your to ignore and then later
claim that I refused to answer your question.
As I will prove below, you have said the following
three things...
1) The writers of the NT were wrong about when Christ
was supposed to return.
2) Christ Himself was wrong, since He taught Paul
everything he (Paul) knew, or Paul was just a liar.
3) That the things that happened to them, which
are written down for us in the NT, never happened
to them, since as you said, that is proof that Christ
has not returned yet, which means that quite a bit
of the NT is a pack of lies (what they went through).
You can also then start a new thread, trying to explain
this way and then once again, pretend that I haven't
taught you anything and that you were always saying
what your new thread will claim, which will be an
attempt to get around your own words and pretend
that you somehow didn't say what you clearly said.
You said that the most important sign that proved
that Christ has not returned yet, is as follows...
"But before all these, they shall lay their hands on
you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the
synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before
kinds and rulers for My Name's sake. And it shall
turn to you for a testimony."
That is a quote of your message and what you claimed
(those verses) is absolute proof that Christ could not
have returned yet, because you said that those things
have not happened yet.
You want us to believe that this never happened
to the Apostles, when the New Testament is full
of examples of it happening and when history
records that they were martyred under Nero.
So let's look at them, one by one and see what happens
when we do, okay? I'll be nice and I won't even bring
history into it. I'll just stick to whatever the Bible
says. And I'll be even nicer and I won't quote every
example from the Bible.
Here is the list of things mentioned in what you quoted
and my responses to them...
1) THEY WOULD BE PERSECUTED.
They were persecuted right from the start.
"And to him they agreed: and when they had called
the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded
that they should not speak in the name of Jesus,
and let them go." - Acts 5:40
Paul even persecuted Christians himself, "unto death".
Is death not harsh enough of a persecution for you?
Does it not qualify as persecution, Glenn (OWD)?
"And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding
and delivering into prisons both men and women."
- Acts 22:4
Of course, Paul himself was also later persecuted
and stated that they all were.
1 Corinthians 4:9-13
9) For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles
last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made
a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10) We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in
Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are
honorable, but we are despised.
11) Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and
thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no
certain dwelling place;
12) And labor, working with our own hands: being
reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13) Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as
the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of
all things unto this day.
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed;
we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not
destroyed;
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of
the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be
made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are always delivered unto death
for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be
made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Paul confessed again that he persecuted the church
and "wasted it".
"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past
in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure
I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:"
- Galatians 1:13
Paul also talks about the Jewish Christians being
persecuted by their own countrymen.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15
14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches
of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also
have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even
as they have of the Jews:
15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own
prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please
not God, and are contrary to all men:
"Are they ministers of Christ? I (speak as a fool)
I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes
above measure, in prisons more frequent, in
deaths oft." - 2 Corinthians 11:23
2) THEY WOULD BE DELIVERED UP TO SYNAGOGUES.
I won't quote all of one of the examples, for space
considerations, but everyone is free to read
Acts 5:17-41 and I think that, in combination
with 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15 above, that is
proof enough of this one.
3) THEY WOULD BE THROWN INTO PRISONS.
Again, we can see Acts 5:17-41 as proof and we know
that Paul was imprisoned often and wrote letters
that we have in the New Testament from prisons.
"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my
fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles,
who also were in Christ before me." - Romans 16:7
In fact, we can look throughout the NT and see how
many times Paul called himself, "the prisoner of
Jesus Christ", which he said to indicate that he was
locked up in prison.
2 Corinthians 6:4-5
4) But in all things approving ourselves as the
ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions,
in necessities, in distresses,
5) In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults,
in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
"Are they ministers of Christ? I (speak as a fool)
I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes
above measure, in prisons more frequent, in
deaths oft." - 2 Corinthians 11:23
"Aristarchus my fellow prisoner saluteth you"
- Colossians 4:10a
4) THEY WOULD BE BROUGHT BEFORE RULERS.
Again, Acts 5:17-41 proves this had already happened
and other passages as well.
Let us also note that the latter part of Acts shows
how Paul was brought before Felix, Festus and
ends with him on his way to testify before Caesar.
Also...
"All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are
of Caesar's household." - Philippians 4:22
5) IT WOULD TURN TO THEM FOR A TESTIMONY.
Acts 14:2-3
2) But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles,
and made their minds evil affected against the
brethren.
3) Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly
in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word
of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be
done by their hands.
1 Corinthians 1:4-6
4) I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace
of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5) That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all
utterance, and in all knowledge;
6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed
in you:
"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony
of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou
partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according
to the power of God;" - 2 Timothy 1:8
And I will end this with Paul's words, which show
why all of this was happening. And I want you to
note that Paul said something quite different than
what you say, when you claim that the writers of
the New Testament were wrong...
Acts 27:23-25
23) For there stood by me this night the angel of God,
whose I am, and whom I serve,
24) Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought
before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all
them that sail with thee.
25) Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: FOR I BELIEVE
GOD, THAT IT SHALL BE EVEN AS IT WAS TOLD ME.
There are many more examples in the NT.
And remember Glenn (oldwetdog), you said these things
were in fact... "the most important sign that proved
that Christ has not returned yet".
So which is it Glenn (OWD)? Is the Bible right?
Or were the writers of the NT, once again, wrong,
because they disagree WITH YOU?!
Yes, that's right Glenn (OWD), it has already happened
and Paul claimed that what he learned, he learned from
God. Paul stated that he did not receive his teaching
from man, but from Christ Himself.
Galatians 1:9-12
9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man
preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have
received, let him be accursed.
10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek
to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not
be the servant of Christ.
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which
was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was
I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
So Glenn, the Gospel that Paul was taught, he was
taught by Christ Himself and Paul's Gospel had,
at its central focus, initial salvation and the return
of Christ, which he said he learned about from Christ!
Paul himself said, when he summed up the central
point of his worship of God, the resurrection...
Acts 24:14-15
14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way
which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my
fathers, believing all things which are written in
the law and in the prophets:
15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves
also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the
dead, both of the just and unjust.
....and that resurrection happens upon Christ's return,
which you say they were wrong about.
Paul even went on to say that without the resurrection,
there is no point in worshipping God at all.
Note in what follows, that Paul stated what it is he
went about preaching. That Christ was crucified,
died and rose and that we were to be raised also
and that without that, there is no point to the Gospel.
And as you admitted, he preached a return of Christ
to raise the dead, within their generation.
1 Corinthians 15:10-17
10) But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his
grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;
but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not
I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11) Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach,
and so ye believed.
12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from
the dead, how say some among you that there is
no resurrection of the dead?
13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead,
then is Christ not risen:
14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching
vain, and your faith is also vain.
15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God;
because we have testified of God that he raised up
Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the
dead rise not.
16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ
raised:
17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain;
ye are yet in your sins.
You claimed that the writers of the New Testament
were wrong about when Christ was to return, when
they taught, as you admit they did, that He was to
return within their generation.
And do you know what that means, OWD? It means
that if Paul learned what he knew from Christ, that
YOU ARE SAYING THAT CHRIST WAS WRONG!!!
Here are your words again. In fact, I will quote
a few of your claims...
In this one, is your claim that the writers of the NT
were wrong and that Preterists are wrong for insisting
that the writers of the NT were correct.
GLENN (OWD): "The supporters of Preterism must
insist that those Early Saints who were incorrect in
their expectations of the return of the Lord in their
lifetime were not wrong after all."
And when I proved to that within the NT they stated
that He was to return within their generation, you
said in response...
GLENN (OWD): "That many early Christians expected
the rapid return of Christ cannot be ignored, nor can
the evidence that they were mistaken in their hopes
and expectations."
And here, you said it flat out...
GLENN (OWD): "The writers of the NT were only
wrong about the Date and Time of the Lord's return."
You said that they were wrong Glenn (OWD) and
you also tried to twist what they said, into a
prediction of an exact date and time, instead of
what they did say, which was only which generation.
So yes Glenn, OLDWETDOG, you DID say that
the writers of the NT were WRONG about the
return of Jesus and when it was supposed to
happen, which was within that generation!
And since Paul stated that he learned what he did
from Christ directly, then you ARE also saying that
CHRIST HIMSELF WAS WRONG!!!
We know YOU don't believe the Bible. But now,
we have you adding to your claims of its falseness!
So thus far, we have you, in your own words, making
the following three claims...
1) The writers of the NT were wrong about when Christ
was supposed to return.
2) Christ Himself was wrong, since He taught Paul
everything he (Paul) knew, or Paul was just a liar.
3) That the things that happened to them, which
are written down for us in the NT, never happened
to them, since as you said, that is proof that Christ
has not returned yet, which means that quite a bit
of the NT is a pack of lies (what they went through).
But of course, you claim that YOU are right and that
what you label, "the Truth", which is that Jesus is
going to return within OUR life time, NO DOUBT,
is going to happen and you also claim to prove that
using the New Testament? Huh???
How can you even dare to call yourself a Christian?!
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
"Let your moderation be known unto all men.
The Lord is AT HAND" - Philippians 4:5
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