| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
21 Apr 2006 09:39:00 AM |
| Object: |
AMAZING BELIEFS |
It is quite amazing that so many adults believe in and put their trust, time
and resources in so many religions and fictitious gods. All religious
beliefs are based on pure 'FAITH', not on ANY TANGIBLE OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
'SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE'.
What distinguishes theology from mythology and astrology? All three are
founded on myth, folklore and legends. NONE are based on scientific
knowledge and objective, verifiable, reproducible evidence.
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
Major sacred texts and documents;
Baha'i Sacrid writtings
Life of Buddha - Dhammapada - Pali cannon
The Bible - Christian religious documents - 18 English interpretations
alone.
NO originals of the old or new testaments exist. They are all copies of
copies etc.
by errant and self interested men of unknown veracity.
The Book of Mormon - Church of Latter Day Saints
The Analects - Confuscianism
The Eddas and Sagas - Icelandic beliefs
Wicca - Neo paganism of Greece and Rome over the centuries
Bhagavgita and Rig Veda - Hinduism
Qur'an - Islam
The Tanakh - Jewism
Tao-Te-Ching - Taoism
Nag Hammadi - Gnostics
Zhuan Falun - Falun Gong
These are just the MAJOR religious beliefs. There are thousands of
variations on these and other religious beliefs! There are thousands of god
beliefs.
Of all these different Gods and belief systems which is the true one, if
any, and which are fakes? None of these documents are objective evidence.
They are all documents written, copied, modified and further copied, over
the centuries, by errant men with their own self interest and motivations.
There is no way to determine authenticity or accuracy. They contain
impossible stories and contradictions
The religious faiths are not founded on faith in God but faith in errant
MEN. Religious documents were written, interpreted, hand copied, modified
and recopied by hundreds of MEN over thousands of years by other MEN.
Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are Scripture? The ones chosen by
MEN. What do they mean? What MEN say they mean. Dictated by God? Just the
OPINIONS of MEN. What is God telling you? Whatever MEN (ordinary selfish.
self promoting, errant humans) CLAIM he is telling you. These religious
texts are nothing but folklore, myth, contradictory and impossible stories
created by MEN. There is not one shred of objective verifiable evidence that
ANY of these ancient documents are the word of ANY God. They are pure myths
and fables.
Now here is some objective tangible evidence that none of these gods exist.
Why does any all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body malfunctions and
starvation? There are 12,000 known ailments and diseases that torture and
kill man. Why would this omnificent loving, all powerful god create all
these diseases to torture and kill his followers with??? These catastrophes
affect people of ALL religious beliefs including TOTALLY INNOCENT CHILDREN!
Just one example of ridiculous ailments is a parasitic worm in West Africa
that bores through the eyes of INNOCENT CHILDREN and causes total blindness
for the rest of their lives. Is this work of a caring and loving god
creator???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into fabulous wealth and
others pauper poor? Why does he permit 2,000,000 totally innocent children
to suffer and die of starvation each year? Why are his human (and animal)
creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, poisonous snakes, stinging
and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent
god create animals (including man) that need to kill and eat other animals
to survive?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
Why does this all powerful, all loving god not permit those in his heaven to
communicate the wonders of his heaven to their living children, relatives
and friends? Why all the secrecy and confusion? Unproven claims by the
mentally deranged and persons with selfish motives are not objective
verifiable evidence - they are just unsubstantiated nonsensical and selfish
claims.
It appears that faith is based on an uncontrollable pervasive fear of death
and what comes after. It is based on an unwillingness to accept the
evidential fact that there is no 'hereafter' or glorious after life in some
imaginary 'heaven'. It is emotionally difficult, and for some impossible, to
accept the finality of death. We are forced to make a decision
whether to live in a dream world or in the real world.
The REAL objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; MAN created gods!
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| User: "Rob" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 10:14:22 AM |
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Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 10:28:07 AM |
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"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON - NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang?
Nothing. As far as we know, it just happened.
The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?"
Why does there have to be a "who"?
The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
You're assuming that you need a God to do it.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Master of Orion 3 lives!
Patch 1.2.5 - http://moo3.quicksilver.com/official/patch071803.html
Strawberry Mod - http://www.moo3.at/mods/link.php?id=142
.
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| User: "Hieros Gamos" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 10:34:06 AM |
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"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
Who created God? Seems like something only pbuh could do.
http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 12:58:00 PM |
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"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang?
I am ignorant of the cause.
So are you.
But to say that a god did it only takes that ignorance and gives it a name.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 04:13:59 PM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:r72dnT3J8_62gNTZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@io.com...
"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang?
I am ignorant of the cause.
So are you.
But to say that a god did it only takes that ignorance and gives it a name.
NOPE.
--
There's No Hurry !
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The Hope !
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The DaVinci Deception
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_Slideshow/DaVinci_Deception_01.smil
http://207.234.208.119/bibleweb-cm-studies.info/cm-studies/studies/=CD-R=davinci-deception-realvideo/DaVinci_Deception_02
_Slideshow/DaVinci_Deception_02.smil
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Creation Studies: Evidence of Design
In a workbook style, this book will address the pros and cons
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Evolution - belief that (with or without God's involvement) the
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The Resurrection of Jesus
This book is an elaboration of the 12 Minimal Facts Approach,
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== Biblical Counseling ==
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 10:23:19 AM |
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"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
How did god get created? He always was and always will be. Maybe the
Universe
always was and always will be! Maybe we should be honest and admit 'we just
don't know'!
Creating imaginary gods with imaginary powers and agendas solves no problems
but
creates new ones.
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| User: "Gods Creator" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 12:27:36 PM |
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Bill wrote:
"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145632462.111741.228650@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is
NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
How did god get created? He always was and always will be. Maybe the
Universe
always was and always will be! Maybe we should be honest and admit 'we just
don't know'!
Creating imaginary gods with imaginary powers and agendas solves no problems
but
creates new ones.
*Thus spake God's Creator*
That is what causes me to _believe_ that everyone...(including the so-called
scientific community), is as insane as I am. :-D
If anything proves anything about the origin of the universe, it is that
fact alone... There must be something infinite!
(i.e.) Something that has no beginning or ending, and even the concept
of humans that _everything_ has to start or end, somewhere at sometime,
is insane!
We depend on our _reasoning/logic_ processes to unravel (so-to-speak) the
mysteries or the meanings of unknown things.
Einstein said he was not a genius, that he just had to consider another
sense of reality to assist him in the understanding of the unknown thing
called... Reality. (He was insane also) :-)
Why are _most_ people unwilling to accept the possibility of *INFINITY* and
would rather create "God's" or "Big Banging" or "Strings" type things?
Unless they are also... INSANE! :-(
He also searched his entire life, for something he _believed_ would explain
everything, and _believed_ it would be would be so simple, that even a
_child_
would be able to understand it.
Could that thing be simply named... INFINITY?
God's Creator!
( *That was my only sin* )
:-)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psstt.... Hey! ---> USED GODS SALE! : http://www.godchecker.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As is... No returns...
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 09:56:04 PM |
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Dear God's Creator:
"God's Creator" <Why_Are_Gods_@Always.Bro.ke> wrote in message
news:75-dnbuW_IKUi9TZRVn-jA@comcast.com...
....
Why are _most_ people unwilling to accept the
possibility of *INFINITY* and would rather create
"God's" or "Big Banging" or "Strings" type things?
A truly infinite Universe meets Olber's paradox.
A truly infinite Universe would have been dissolved in "grey
goo".
A truly infinite Universe would have no entropy.
A truly infinite Universe would have no smallest thing that stops
being "hydrogen" or "carbon" if you try and divide it any
smaller.
The reality is this Universe is a study in finite.
David A. Smith
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| User: "Gods Creator" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
22 Apr 2006 01:13:49 AM |
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N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear God's Creator:
"God's Creator" <Why_Are_Gods_@Always.Bro.ke> wrote in message
news:75-dnbuW_IKUi9TZRVn-jA@comcast.com...
...
Why are _most_ people unwilling to accept the
possibility of *INFINITY* and would rather create
"God's" or "Big Banging" or "Strings" type things?
A truly infinite Universe meets Olber's paradox.
A truly infinite Universe would have been dissolved in "grey
goo".
A truly infinite Universe would have no entropy.
A truly infinite Universe would have no smallest thing that stops
being "hydrogen" or "carbon" if you try and divide it any
smaller.
The reality is this Universe is a study in finite.
David A. Smith
*Thus spake God's Creator*
Try walking half the distant from your present position to the wall,
and then stop.
Then walk half the distance from that position to the wall again,
and then stop.
Then walk half the distance from that position to the wall again,
and then stop.
[.....]
Then do the the same thing again... again... and again...
You will never , ever reach the wall.
Try that _only_ when you have an infinite amount of spare time. :-)
Everything constantly mutates to something.... different. (Endlessly)
We should try and study the _whatever_ engine/thing that says;
*Everything MUST change*
even -->
God's Creator!
( *Sorry... but I don't forgive ***** * ) :-)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psstt.... Hey! ---> USED GODS SALE! : http://www.godchecker.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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| User: "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \dlzc\ N: dlzc1 D:cox" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
22 Apr 2006 01:44:55 AM |
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Dear God's Creator:
"God's Creator" <Why_Are_Gods_@Always.Bro.ke> wrote in message
news:eNqdnYer2qEDVNTZnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
Dear God's Creator:
"God's Creator" <Why_Are_Gods_@Always.Bro.ke> wrote in message
news:75-dnbuW_IKUi9TZRVn-jA@comcast.com...
...
Why are _most_ people unwilling to accept the
possibility of *INFINITY* and would rather create
"God's" or "Big Banging" or "Strings" type things?
A truly infinite Universe meets Olber's paradox.
A truly infinite Universe would have been dissolved
in "grey goo".
A truly infinite Universe would have no entropy.
A truly infinite Universe would have no smallest
thing that stops being "hydrogen" or "carbon" if
you try and divide it any smaller.
The reality is this Universe is a study in finite.
*Thus spake God's Creator*
Try walking half the distant from your present
position to the wall, and then stop. Then walk
half the distance from that position to the wall
again, and then stop. Then walk half the
distance from that position to the wall again,
and then stop.
Zeno's paradox was proposed by Zeno, to poke fun at the school of
thought you are proposing.
[.....]
Then do the the same thing again... again...
and again... You will never , ever reach the wall.
Yes, I will. My toenails will cover the last bit of distance.
Try that _only_ when you have an infinite amount
of spare time. :-)
Everything constantly mutates to something....
Right. Grey goo is the result, given an infinite amount of time.
different. (Endlessly)
No, not endlessly. Species thrive then die (or simply peter
out). Stars age. The ocean becomes saltier and saltier. In 125
billion years (or so), no particle will have any other particle
in its future.
We should try and study the _whatever_
engine/thing that says;
*Everything MUST change*
It is one with the Universe. It was "written" in when this
Universe fell across the event horizon we call "The Big Bang".
David A. Smith
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 08:04:16 PM |
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Rob wrote:
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
That is, of course, assuming that "The Big Bang" was the beginning.
That is to assume things that are not in evidence.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS - ANTHROPOMORPHISM |
21 Apr 2006 10:39:40 AM |
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Rob wrote:
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang?
===>Nature, the Cosmos is not a thing but a PROCESS,
and eternal formation and transformation of all that exists.
What "causes" any particular form of appearance is the process
itself. Whatever appears, eventually disappears, being transformed
into something else.
If there was a "bang", big or little, it was just one movement in
the eternal flux. -- L.
The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?"
===>NO ONE "put" it or anything else anywhere.
The human tendency to anthropomorphize the processes
of nature makes you come up with such nonsense.
The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
===>That is exactly what I mean.
You project an anthropomorphic "being" into the Universe. -- L.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 01:15:38 PM |
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Rob wrote:
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang?
We don't know. Must have been magic, eh?
The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?"
So it's easier to say it was all magicked into existence, eh? Let's put
an end to all that expensive science, and give it to the poor.
The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
So who magicked the god into existence, or is it OK for *him* to exist
forever?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Member, Earthquack's 666 club
Supervisor, EAC department of little adhesive-backed shiny plastic
L-shaped doo-dads to add feet to Jesus Fish department
It is safe to say that the bible contains equal amounts of fact, history
and pizza.
-Penn Jillette
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
22 Apr 2006 12:50:03 AM |
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Rob wrote:
Which god, if any, created the Universe and our world? What objective
verifiable evidence is there that ANY god created the world? There is NON -
NADA!
So what, if anything, caused the big bang? The scientific theory has
merrit, and people believe it to be true, but no one can even begin to
answer "who put that tiny ball of infinite density in the middle of no
where, and then caused it to blow up and form the universe we have
today?" The big bang theory can be summed up in the following way:
that the universe just came into being one day in a big bang. Seems
like something only God could do.
You 'forgot' the point about the multifarious gods,
and you go back to a single one !
<Sigh>
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| User: "Sav" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 11:16:18 AM |
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Bill wrote:
The REAL objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; MAN created gods!
What you are trying to say is man might have created books, the point
that you appear to be missing is that all the books you have mentioned
have a structure to leading a fulfilling life with an overtone of faith
to a higher power,
Is there anything wrong with that?
Charles Darwin also wrote a book with scientific proof of evolution but
has negligible proof of how we were created.
Since script was created man has been writing his thoughts and beliefs,
and all scripts (not just scriptures) may contain elements of truth, its
just a case of sifting through to find it.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 11:45:41 AM |
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"Sav" <opinionated@outback.oz> wrote in message
news:mz72g.12021$vy1.5501@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Bill wrote:
The REAL objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; MAN created gods!
What you are trying to say is man might have created books, the point
that you appear to be missing is that all the books you have mentioned
have a structure to leading a fulfilling life with an overtone of faith
to a higher power,
Is there anything wrong with that?
I assume you are talking about the Bibles. I suggest you read them with some
degree of perception. They are worthless as
and missleading as a means of guiding ones life.
The foundations of all Christian religions are the Bibles and Jesus Christ.
The Bibles are the literature of pure 'faith', not of scientific
observation, evidence or historical fact or demonstration.
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would God not protect the originals? What are available are
copies of copies by unknown men of questionable veracity. They are biased
by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And the status
of the clergy is totally dependent on their followers belief in the Bible
stories.
The originals rotted and disappeared thousands of years ago. The Bibles were
hand written and recopied more than a thousand years before the invention of
the printing press. And of course we not only do not know what was in the
originals but they were also written and altered by errant biased men
motivated to impress their flock.
It is interesting to note that NONE of the Bibles were written during Jesus'
claimed life time. Time needed to pass to permit the creation of tales and
the embellishment of history.
According to Bart Ehrman, professor and Chair of the Dept. of Religious
Studies at the University of North Carolina, The Bible is not the error-free
word of any god. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the
basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have
uncovered more thousands of differences in those texts.
The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the
text years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that mention
Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy
Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of
Christian theology, and this is the only place where it is spelled out in
the entire Bible -- and it appears to have been added to the text centuries
later, by an unknown scribe.
For a man who originally believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God,
Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: he
found there are NO original manuscripts of ANY of the New Testament.
If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the
message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be
'null and void'. Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was
no real historical record. It was, he felt, no more than myths and fables,
told by illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades that
followed.
There is no solid agreement even within the Christian community on the
interpretation of the Bibles. There are 18 English versions alone. There are
thousands of variations and opinions as to the meaning of various Biblical
statements.
If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind his recorded record of his
rules and commands? Why are there NO Biblical documents written during his
'claimed' time on earth? The Old Testaments were written 'before his birth'.
The New Testaments were written '60 and more years after his death' by men
that could never have known Jesus personally. NON were written during his
'claimed' life time.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles contain both historical and scientific errors. They
contain manifest absurdities, unfulfilled prophesies, immoralities,
indecencies, obscenities, atrocities, barbarities, myths, folklore and
legends. They are nothing more than hearsay, myths, contradictions and
implausible tales.
Here is just a small sampling of implausible Bible stories.
The story of creation
A totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation. It is obviously
pure fiction.
Biblically, God created the world about six thousand years ago. 'Scientific
Evidence' indicates the Universe, as we now know it, began more than 13
BILLION years ago or more.
In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed (not to
mention flat) Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. This was believed until modern scientific inquiry showed this was
totally false. We now KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the
Universe is over 20 BILLION light years in diameter and is made up of
trillions of Stars and Planets of which our planetary system is a very
miniscule and inconsequential part. There was no concept of a 'Universe' in
Biblical times.
Everything beyond our immediate Son and planets was considered Heaven.
In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son, Moon and
Stars. Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
approximately 10 BILLION YEARS after the beginning of the present Universe
and after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.
The Creation of the World
Genesis
In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a
mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God said, Let there
be light, and there was light; and God saw that the light was good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness
night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day. God created light
before he created the Sun and the Moon!
Astronomical evidence indicates shows the Son existed long before the Earth;
therefore the earth was not created before the Son. It is equally obvious
that the writers of that time thought the World was the center the firmament
and that they had no conception of the size and nature of the Universe.
Everything beyond the Sun and Moon was considered to be gods Heaven
God said, Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from
water. So God made the vault, and separated the water under the vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven. Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.
God said; Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that
dry land may appear; and so it was. God called the dry land earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then
God said, Let the earth produce fresh growth, let there be on the earth
plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its kind. So it was; the earth yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed
according to their kind and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a
third day.
And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals (and
man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!
God said, Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for seasons and
years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to give light on earth. So
it was; God made the two great lights, the greater to govern the day and the
lesser to govern the night; and with them he made the stars. God put these
lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to govern day and
night, and to separate light from darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.
Ancient man erroneously thought the stars beyond the Sun and Moon to be
Heaven. The Moon was NOT considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lesser light.
God, said, Let the waters teem with countless living creatures, and let
birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. God then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in the
waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, be fruitful and increase, fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. Evening came, and
morning came, a fifth day.
And this all loving God created creatures of that kill and eat other
creatures including man.
Archaeological evidence shows that animals evolved from primitive cells over
a period of about four billion years - not in one day!
God said, let the earth bring forth living creatures, according to their
kind: cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to their kind. So it
was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all reptiles, each according to its
kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, Let us make man it our
image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the birds of heaven, the
cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be
fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in
the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the
earth. God also said, I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours
for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the
birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth, every living creature. So it
was; and God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Evening came,
and morning came, a sixth day.
And God created animals that need to kill and eat other animals including
man in order to survive. This is a loving and caring God?
Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their mighty throng. On the
sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and on the seventh
day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the seventh day and made it
holy, because on that day he ceased from all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.
Why would a God that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and need rest?
If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?
Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of both
young and old to starve to death?
These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and members
of all religious beliefs.
Why did he design humans to suffer the decrepitude and malignancies of old
age? Even those that devote their lives to religious leadership suffer these
punishments of old age.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat other
animals to survive?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
Adam and Eve
In the Bible, there are two different accounts of Adam and Eve's creation.
According to the Priestly (P) history of the 5th or 6th century BC (Genesis
1:1-2:4), God on the sixth day of Creation created all the living creatures
and, "in his own image," man both "male and female." God then blessed the
couple, told them to be "fruitful and multiply," and gave them dominion over
all other living things.
According to the lengthier Yahwist (J) narrative of the 10th century BC
(Genesis 2:5-7, 2:15-4:1, 4:25), God, or Yahweh, created Adam at a time when
the earth was still void, forming him from the earth's dust and breathing
"into his nostrils the breath of life." God then gave Adam the primeval
Garden of Eden to tend but, on penalty of death, commanded him not to eat of
the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Subsequently, so that
Adam would not be alone, God created other animals but, finding these
insufficient, put Adam to sleep, took from him a rib, and created a new
companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence until Eve yielded to the
temptations of the evil serpent and Adam joined her in eating the forbidden
fruit, whereupon they both recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves
as garments. Immediately, God recognized their transgression and proclaimed
their punishments-for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to
man, and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must
toil and sweat for his subsistence. Adam died at the age of 930!
In later Christian theology, the concept of original sin (q.v.) took hold-a
sin in which human kind has been held captive since the fall of Adam and
Eve. The doctrine was based on Pauline Scripture but has not been accepted
by a number of Christian sects and interpreters. Why should BILLIONS of
innocent people be punished over thousands of years for this original sin
that they had no part in?
This is both sadistic and ridiculous!
Jonah
As the story is related in the Book of Jonah, the prophet Jonah is called by
God to go to Nineveh (a great Assyrian city) and prophesy disaster because
of the city's wickedness. Jonah, in the story, feels about Nineveh as does
the author of the Book of Nahum-that the city must inevitably be destroyed
because of God's judgment against it. Thus Jonah does not want to prophesy,
because Nineveh might repent and thereby be saved. So he rushes down to
Joppa and takes passage in a ship that will carry him in the opposite
direction, thinking to escape God.
A storm of unprecedented severity strikes the ship, and it shows signs of
breaking up and foundering. Jonah confesses that it is his presence on board
that is causing the storm. At his request, he is thrown overboard, and the
storm subsides.
A "great fish," appointed by God, swallows Jonah, and he stays within the
fish's maw for three days and nights. He prays for deliverance and is
"vomited out" on dry land (ch. 2).
Totally implausible. He would have been digested by the fish in those three
days!
Sodom and Gomorrah
According to the Bible these cities and everyone in them, except Lot and his
family, were destroyed by fire and brimstone for their sinfulness. Lot's
wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying God's command to not
look back at her city of birth being destroyed.
There is no way that EVERYONE in two cities could be so sinful, especially
innocent children, to deserve destruction by fire and brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah constituted, along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and
Zoar (Bela), the five biblical "cities of the plain." Destroyed by"brimstone
and fire" because of their wickedness (Genesis 19:24).
Sodom and Gomorrah probably were devastated about 1900 BC by an earthquake
in the Dead Sea area of the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending
from the Jordan River valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East
Africa. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases
existing in the area probably contributed to the imagery of "brimstone and
fire"
Cruel, inhumane and pure nonsense!
The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11.1 - 11.9
God became concerned that the Tower being built would reach his heaven.
He confounded the builders by giving them different languages so they could
no longer communicate with each other to continue the construction.
Why would this be of any concern to an all powerful God creator and wouldn't
this God creator realize that no tower could possibly reach his spiritual
heaven?
Noah and the Ark
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built to this day could not even come CLOSE to
housing Noah, his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth. And
this was a boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There are 1.7
million KNOWN species of animals on this planet. This story is patently
impossible, using only materials and tools available to Noah, to build an
arch large enough to hold all these creatures, together with suitable
environments for each of them to live in, keeping them all separated so they
don't kill and eat each other. And then provide room and an environment for
many hundreds of millions of known species of insects, plants, molds etc. on
this planet?
2. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten month
escapade?
3. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS supply of food
and fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
4. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
5. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
6. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as a greater tale than Santa
Claus, The Wizard of Oz, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face
of the earth: men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
This is patently ridiculous and impossible. How could they capture and load
over three million animals in a period of seven days???
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [, 21 Every living thing that
moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the
creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry
land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing
on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures
that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the
earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
This of course would have also killed all the vegetation on Earth!
Genesis 7:6 (New International Version)
6 Noah was "six hundred" years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood
Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that
were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters
receded.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and
fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on
the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day
of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible
And what did they eat until all the vegetation recovered from the flood???
Genesis 9 God's Covenant with Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and
all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground,
and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you
the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand
an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an
accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Before man learned how to create a fire, he had no choice but to eat raw
meat!
Samson
Hebrew Shimshon, Israelite hero portrayed in an epic narrative in the Old
Testament (Judg. 13-16). He was a Nazirite (q.v.) and a legendary warrior
whose incredible exploits hint at the weight of Philistine pressure on
Israel during much of the early, tribal period of Israel in Canaan
(1200-1000).
Samson was claimed to possess extraordinary physical strength, and the moral
of his saga relates the disastrous loss of his power to the violation of his
Nazirite vow. Credited with remarkable exploits-e.g., the slaying of a lion
and moving the gates of Gaza-he first broke his religious promises by
feasting with a woman from the neighboring town of Timnah, who was also a
Philistine, one of Israel's mortal enemies. Other remarkable deeds follow;
e.g., his decimating the Philistines in a private war. On another occasion
he repulsed their assault on him at Gaza, where he had gone to visit a
harlot. He finally fell victim to his foes through love of Delilah, a woman
of the valley of Sorek, who beguiled him into revealing the secret of his
strength: his long Nazirite hair. As he slept, Delilah had his hair cut and
betrayed him. He was captured, blinded, and enslaved by the Philistines, but
in the end he was granted his revenge; through the return of his old
strength, he supposedly demolished the great Philistine temple of the god
Dagon, at Gaza, destroying his captors and himself (Judg.16:4-30).
A truly implausible tale!
God created a three level Universe - Heaven above, a flat World resting on
water. Genesis 1:6-10; 7:11; 8:2; 11:11-9; 19:24; 28:12-13; Exodus 20:4;
Numbers 16:30-33; Deuteronomy 33:17.
God created the Sun and the Moon on the fourth day but created light on the
first day! Genesis1:1-9; 14-19
It is claimed that the Eve, first woman, was created from one of Adam's
ribs.
Genesis 3:1-5 Men and women have the same number of ribs on each side of
their body? And in any case why would a god that has created the Universe
and everything in it need to tale rib from Adam to create Eve???
The Bibles claim that a talking snake talked Eve into eating the forbidden
fruit.
The Bibles claim that Adam lived 930 years, Seth 912 years, Enosh 905 years,
Kenan910 years, Mahalael 895 years, Jared 962 years, Methuselah 969 years;
Lamech 777 years, and Noah 950 years. Genesis 5:-31; 9:29
God commanded that every baby boy at age of eight days be circumcised.
At that time sterilization (of knives) was unknown and many died of
infection for which they new no cure. Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis that he then required to
be painfully and dangerously removed?
This all caring and loving God sent ten horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Exodus 7:14-12:32 and in his loving generosity gave Israel the land of the
Canaanites and the Israelites slaughtered every person of seven nations.
Twenty one million, men women and innocent children, were slaughtered
according to the Bible. Exodus 12:1-2
This is a loving god???
According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan, for forty
days. Assuming that Jesus is God, we are required to believe that God
was tempted by Satan, who was created by God in the first place.
[NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give
you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to
him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10] If Jesus is God,
would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the
world when all the all kingdoms of the world were created by and already
belong to God??
======================================================
God in the Bibles classifies bats as birds when anyone with an elementary
knowledge of biology knows that bats are flying MAMMALS!
Letiviticus11:13, 19
This God can't control his temper resulting in killing thousands of people.
Numbers 11:31-35; 25:1-9
He and Moses ordered the Israelites to kill all the male and Female
Medianites who had ever had sex but to spare the young women who were
virgins and keep them for themselves to enjoy. Numbers 31:14-1
Jeremiah:16:1: The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,
2: Thou shall not take thee a wife, neither shall thou have sons or
daughters in this place.
3: For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters
that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them,
and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
4: They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither
shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth:
and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses
shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
5: For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go
to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people,
saith the LORD, even loving kindness and mercies.
======================================================
According to the unerring Bible, the earth is the oldest object in the
Universe. (Genesis 1:1), snakes can talk (Genesis 3:1-5), and Man had
dominion over the dinosaurs (Genesis 1:26, 28)."
Really??? The Earth did not come into existence until 10 BILLION years after
the Universe. Man came into existence MILLIONS of years AFTER the extinction
of the Dinosaurs.
======================================================
God is satisfied with his works
[Gen 1:31]
God is dissatisfied with his works.
[Gen 6:6]
God dwells in chosen temples
[2 Chron 7:12,16]
God dwells not in temples
[Acts 7:48]
======================================================
Jesus' claimed last words on the cross, 'My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?' Hardly seems like the words of a god that created and
controlled the whole world and who planned his entry and exit on earth.
More obvious nonsense!
======================================================
Additional Bible nonsense too voluminous to quote fully;
Mt.4:8: Gen. 1:6; Deut. 30.4; Job. 9:6,22:13, 26:11; PSA 75.3, 103.12;
1 Sam 2.8; Isa. 13.5, 40.21-22; Dan 4.10-11; Re. 7.1, 20.8; Psa 93:1, 96:10,
105.5Job. 22.14; Rev. 6.14; Acts 10:11; Rev. 6:13, 8:14; Mat. 2:9; Gen 1:16;
Lev.19.27, 11.7,10-12: Mat. 5:17-19; Luke 16:17; Lev. 19.19; Luke 16:1-9;
Amos 3:6; Isa. 45:7; Lev, 18.22, 20.13; Deut. 13.6; Judges 14.20; 1 Sam
16:21-23, 18.1-3; Sam 1:26, 13:3, 15:37, 16:16-17: Mat. 2:13-15; Luke 2:1-7,
21; Gen. 11.6, 18:21, 27:33; Exod. 9:14, 12:12; Num 33.4; Deut. 3.23; Exod.
18:11; Eccl. 9.5-6, 9:10; Job 7.9-10, 13:28, 14:1-2, 14:1-2, 10-12, 21; Prov
2:18-19; Eccl. 10:17, 17:27, 28, 30, 19.3, 44:9; wisdom 2:1-5
This is just a sampling of ridiculous Bible tales. The Bibles are obviously
a mixture of fiction, fables, folklore and pure nonsense.
And these Bibles were dictated by God??? Then this God must be a demented
idiot.
Charles Darwin also wrote a book with scientific proof of evolution but
has negligible proof of how we were created.
Since script was created man has been writing his thoughts and beliefs,
and all scripts (not just scriptures) may contain elements of truth, its
just a case of sifting through to find it.
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M#X;B2):!@*;JRK;N"\?R3-?VC>?ZSO?^#PP*A\2B\8A,*I?,IO,)C4JGU&@!
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end
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 12:47:24 PM |
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What always amazes me about Mens srguement is that they say things are
impossible because it could not be achieved by Man .
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 12:47:28 PM |
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What always amazes me about Mens srguement is that they say things are
impossible because it could not be achieved by Man .
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 01:01:12 PM |
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"Sav" <opinionated@outback.oz> wrote in message
news:mz72g.12021$vy1.5501@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Bill wrote:
The REAL objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; MAN created gods!
What you are trying to say is man might have created books, the point that
you appear to be missing is that all the books you have mentioned have a
structure to leading a fulfilling life with an overtone of faith to a
higher power,
Is there anything wrong with that?
Of course there is. Faith is generally a bad idea that leads to all sorts of
tragedy.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 11:08:31 PM |
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Sav wrote:
Bill wrote:
The REAL objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; MAN created gods!
What you are trying to say is man might have created books, the point
that you appear to be missing is that all the books you have mentioned
have a structure to leading a fulfilling life with an overtone of faith
to a higher power,
Is there anything wrong with that?
Charles Darwin also wrote a book with scientific proof of evolution but
has negligible proof of how we were created.
Since script was created man has been writing his thoughts and beliefs,
and all scripts (not just scriptures) may contain elements of truth, its
just a case of sifting through to find it.
===>Nothing wrong with having and reading those books.
What IS wrong is COMPELLING
people to believe ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies
written by HUMANS, by claiming they are the "word of God". -- L.
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| User: "Thandarr" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
21 Apr 2006 04:50:18 PM |
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Bill,
I think you're leaving out something: subjective experience. Maybe
it's because you don't feel it, or don't feel it very strongly.
Most human beings have a strong desire to commune with the divine.
It's a near universal human desire. Amazingly, most people actually
feel that contact with the divine. Sometimes through prayer and
ritual, sometimes through meditation, sometimes through contemplation,
sometimes through the reading of scriptures, and by many other means,
we do feel genuine contact with the divine. For many people, organized
religions aid in that process. Others do so without the help of
priests, preachers, and scriptures.
Nonetheless, throughout history people have felt the yearning for the
divine, and have in many ways satisfied it through religion. To the
extent religion satisfies that yearning for the design, it is true. It
is efficient. To the extent satisfying that yearning for the divine
makes the individual worshiper a better person--better to his
neighbors--better to his family--better to himself--happier and more
peaceful--it works.
Does that mean that I accept the dogmas or tenets or scriptures of any
of the religions? Not necessarily, although there may be scraps of
truth in all of them. The divine, God, Gods and Goddesses, or whatever
you may call the divine really touches people. They really feel the
presence.
Are they--are WE---delusional? Possibly. Is this all because of some
tragic quirk of evolution that makes human beings unusually susceptible
to the illusion of the presence of the divine. Possibly. But I'd
suggest that the stronger possibility, indeed the probability, is that
human beings throughout history have felt the presence of the divine
because it was there.
I'm not going to defend any particular belief or particular scripture,
because I believe they all are effective to the extent they satisfy our
yearning for the divine.
Certainly evil has been done in the name of religion, but on balance,
when looking not at leaders, prophets, and kings, but the influence of
religion in the ordinary lives of normal people, the balance weighs
heavily in favor of religion as a source of good.
Those who insist that we accept various dogmas and revealed truths as a
condition of communing with God are, I believe, in error. They
themselves achieve communion with the divine in that way, but that
doesn't mean that will work for their neighbor.
What you attack is often not the idea of God, but the characteristics
of God as assigned by human beings.
<Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
<Then he is not omnipotent.
It is human dogma that God is "omnipotent." (Whatever that means, and
I somewhat think infinite claims about a finite universe are somewhat
meaningless) Within the confines of finite creation, he is not
"omnipotent." He has designed a universe that follows rules. He has
made creatures with free will. To the extent we have free will, God
has less than complete power. If God has ceded the power to make one
decision, however small, to me, he is not "omnipotent" within this
universe. But human free will is only a tiny part of the causation of
what we deem "evil." Nature, as designed by God, is such that bad
things happen.
<Is he able, but not willing?
<Then he is malevolent.
Unquestionably, God lets "bad" things happen according to the laws of
the universe. We have no way to know if the bad things we see are
permanent. If--and this is only an if--there is some kind of life
outside the bounds of creation, even the greatest tragedy may be no
more than a temporary annoyance. Maybe God is less than infinitely
good.
<Is he both able and willing?
<Then where does evil come from?
Evil, like good, is part of creation.
<Is he neither able nor willing?
<Then why call him a God?
Because we feel good when we commune with him.
Which set of dogma about God is most likely true? I have no idea. I
strongly suspect none of them are even close. I equally strongly
suspect that it doesn't matter. Religions are born of people trying to
make sense of their experiences with the divine.
If there is a "God," and defined loosely I believe there is a "God,"
that God must be something outside creation, outside time, space,
matter, and energy. Rules of logic don't apply to God. It makes no
sense to say God is single or plural, man or woman, old or young,
because those are all characteristics of creation. God exists outside
of creation.
Every religious tradition you have mentioned is good and true because
it serves to satisfy the fundamental human need and make people better
than they would be without it.
You claim that the objective evidence is that no gods created man. To
the contrary, I would suggest that there is absolutely no objective
evidence whatsoever as to whether there's a god or not. It's all
subjective. I can't share my experience that tells me there's a divine
power in the universe. It's internal. Others will experience
different feelings, and some will experience none at all.
Obviously, I can't convince you with subjective evidence, and I don't
plan to. Unlike some religions, mine doesn't tell me that I should try
to convince you. I think the evidence is exactly equal on the question
.. . . . there is none either way. The party making the
assertion--usually the theist but here the atheist since you started
this--has the burden of proof.
Thandarr
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
22 Apr 2006 12:59:03 AM |
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Thandarr wrote:
Bill,
I think you're leaving out something: subjective experience. Maybe
it's because you don't feel it, or don't feel it very strongly.
Most human beings have a strong desire to commune with the divine.
Because they have been so trained by the 'supersitius ones' plus thier
parents if they also qualify
It's a near universal human desire. Amazingly, most people actually
feel that contact with the divine.
See above
Sometimes through prayer and
ritual, sometimes through meditation, sometimes through contemplation,
sometimes through the reading of scriptures, and by many other means,
Yes such as mass hysteria. [watch any telvangelist show for a perfect
example]
we do feel genuine contact with the divine.
See above
For many people, organized
religions aid in that process. Others do so without the help of
priests, preachers, and scriptures.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest."
[Denis Dioderot 1713-1784]
Nonetheless, throughout history people have felt the yearning for the
divine, and have in many ways satisfied it through religion.
No - they shivered with fear in their caves ignorant of how they were
borne, why they die and why the neighbouring groups of likewise humans try
to kill them.
They imnagined gods because they heard noises in the forest at night that
they thought were evil spirits and they hoped the gods wouild chase the
evil spirits away. remember them?
To the
extent religion satisfies that yearning for the design, it is true. It
is efficient. To the extent satisfying that yearning for the divine
makes the individual worshiper a better person--better to his
neighbors--better to his family--better to himself--happier and more
peaceful--it works.
Maybe, but it is still a man made myth and man will kill to defend his
imaginary god, ask any Muslim
Does that mean that I accept the dogmas or tenets or scriptures of any
of the religions? Not necessarily, although there may be scraps of
truth in all of them. The divine, God, Gods and Goddesses, or whatever
you may call the divine really touches people. They really feel the
presence.
Your imagination must be in 'free wheel' !
Are they--are WE---delusional? Possibly. Is this all because of some
tragic quirk of evolution that makes human beings unusually susceptible
to the illusion of the presence of the divine. Possibly. But I'd
suggest that the stronger possibility, indeed the probability, is that
human beings throughout history have felt the presence of the divine
because it was there.
I'm not going to defend any particular belief or particular scripture,
because I believe they all are effective to the extent they satisfy our
yearning for the divine.
Certainly evil has been done in the name of religion, but on balance,
when looking not at leaders, prophets, and kings, but the influence of
religion in the ordinary lives of normal people, the balance weighs
heavily in favor of religion as a source of good.
Those who insist that we accept various dogmas and revealed truths as a
condition of communing with God are, I believe, in error. They
themselves achieve communion with the divine in that way, but that
doesn't mean that will work for their neighbor.
What you attack is often not the idea of God, but the characteristics
of God as assigned by human beings.
<Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
<Then he is not omnipotent.
It is human dogma that God is "omnipotent." (Whatever that means, and
I somewhat think infinite claims about a finite universe are somewhat
meaningless) Within the confines of finite creation, he is not
"omnipotent." He has designed a universe that follows rules. He has
made creatures with free will. To the extent we have free will, God
has less than complete power. If God has ceded the power to make one
decision, however small, to me, he is not "omnipotent" within this
universe. But human free will is only a tiny part of the causation of
what we deem "evil." Nature, as designed by God, is such that bad
things happen.
<Is he able, but not willing?
<Then he is malevolent.
Unquestionably, God lets "bad" things happen according to the laws of
the universe. We have no way to know if the bad things we see are
permanent. If--and this is only an if--there is some kind of life
outside the bounds of creation, even the greatest tragedy may be no
more than a temporary annoyance. Maybe God is less than infinitely
good.
<Is he both able and willing?
<Then where does evil come from?
Evil, like good, is part of creation.
<Is he neither able nor willing?
<Then why call him a God?
Because we feel good when we commune with him.
Which set of dogma about God is most likely true? I have no idea. I
strongly suspect none of them are even close. I equally strongly
suspect that it doesn't matter. Religions are born of people trying to
make sense of their experiences with the divine.
If there is a "God," and defined loosely I believe there is a "God,"
that God must be something outside creation, outside time, space,
matter, and energy. Rules of logic don't apply to God. It makes no
sense to say God is single or plural, man or woman, old or young,
because those are all characteristics of creation. God exists outside
of creation.
Every religious tradition you have mentioned is good and true because
it serves to satisfy the fundamental human need and make people better
than they would be without it.
You claim that the objective evidence is that no gods created man. To
the contrary, I would suggest that there is absolutely no objective
evidence whatsoever as to whether there's a god or not. It's all
subjective. I can't share my experience that tells me there's a divine
power in the universe. It's internal. Others will experience
different feelings, and some will experience none at all.
Obviously, I can't convince you with subjective evidence, and I don't
plan to. Unlike some religions, mine doesn't tell me that I should try
to convince you. I think the evidence is exactly equal on the question
. . . . there is none either way. The party making the
assertion--usually the theist but here the atheist since you started
this--has the burden of proof.
Thandarr
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| User: "Thandarr" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
23 Apr 2006 06:44:27 PM |
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bob young wrote:
Thandarr wrote:
Bill,
I think you're leaving out something: subjective experience. Maybe
it's because you don't feel it, or don't feel it very strongly.
Most human beings have a strong desire to commune with the divine.
Because they have been so trained by the 'supersitius ones' plus thier
parents if they also qualify
Most of this is something I conceded in the message:
Are they--are WE---delusional? Possibly. Is this all because of some
tragic quirk of evolution that makes human beings unusually susceptible
to the illusion of the presence of the divine. Possibly. But I'd
suggest that the stronger possibility, indeed the probability, is that
human beings throughout history have felt the presence of the divine
because it was there.
Still: As religion is near-universal, by which I mean every society
has a religious tradition, it should surprise nobody that parents pass
the details of their faith to their children. But that does not mean
it's all meaningless. Many people, my parents and in turn myself
included, find solace in different religious traditions than we were
taught as infants. There is no example of a society on earth where
people did not desire to communicate with the divine.
Granted . . . . hell, my POINT is . . . that these feelings are
subjective. I can't share mine with you. I can tell you about them
and you can dismiss them as nonsense, but the near-universality of the
phenomenon is at least some reason to think it's something more than us
following what our parents told us.
It's a near universal human desire. Amazingly, most people actually
feel that contact with the divine.
See above
Sometimes through prayer and
ritual, sometimes through meditation, sometimes through contemplation,
sometimes through the reading of scriptures, and by many other means,
Yes such as mass hysteria. [watch any telvangelist show for a perfect
example]
we do feel genuine contact with the divine.
See above
For many people, organized
religions aid in that process. Others do so without the help of
priests, preachers, and scriptures.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest."
[Denis Dioderot 1713-1784]
How sweet. But we're almost out of kings. What are we going to do
with all those priest entrails?
Nonetheless, throughout history people have felt the yearning for the
divine, and have in many ways satisfied it through religion.
No - they shivered with fear in their caves ignorant of how they were
borne, why they die and why the neighbouring groups of likewise humans try
to kill them.
They imnagined gods because they heard noises in the forest at night that
they thought were evil spirits and they hoped the gods wouild chase the
evil spirits away. remember them?
If you are comfortable that this is all people get out of religion,
fine. I won't try to convince you otherwise.
To the
extent religion satisfies that yearning for the design, it is true. It
is efficient. To the extent satisfying that yearning for the divine
makes the individual worshiper a better person--better to his
neighbors--better to his family--better to himself--happier and more
peaceful--it works.
Maybe, but it is still a man made myth and man will kill to defend his
imaginary god, ask any Muslim
Most Muslims, of course, have never killed anyone to defend their god.
Certainly some do, as some Christians did in ages past (and very
occasionally still do today).
Does that mean that I accept the dogmas or tenets or scriptures of any
of the religions? Not necessarily, although there may be scraps of
truth in all of them. The divine, God, Gods and Goddesses, or whatever
you may call the divine really touches people. They really feel the
presence.
Your imagination must be in 'free wheel' !
If religion didn't "work" people wouldn't continue to worship.
[I'm deleting the rest from this response since you didn't comment on
it.
Thandarr
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: AMAZING BELIEFS |
24 Apr 2006 08:04:02 AM |
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Thandarr wrote:
bob young wrote:
Thandarr wrote:
Bill,
I think you're leaving out something: subjective experience. Maybe
it's because you don't feel it, or don't feel it very strongly.
Most human beings have a strong desire to commune with the divine.
Because they have been so trained by the 'supersitius ones' plus thier
parents if they also qualify
Most of this is something I conceded in the message:
Are they--are WE---delusional? Possibly. Is this all because of some
tragic quirk of evolution that makes human beings unusually susceptible
to the illusion of the presence of the divine. Possibly. But I'd
suggest that the stronger possibility, indeed the probability, is that
human beings throughout history have felt the presence of the divine
because it was there.
Still: As religion is near-universal, by which I mean every society
has a religious tradition, it should surprise nobody that parents pass
the details of their faith to their children. But that does not mean
it's all meaningless. Many people, my parents and in turn myself
included, find solace in different religious traditions than we were
taught as infants. There is no example of a society on earth where
people did not desire to communicate with the divine.
Granted . . . . hell, my POINT is . . . that these feelings are
subjective. I can't share mine with you. I can tell you about them
and you can dismiss them as nonsense, but the near-universality of the
phenomenon is at least some reason to think it's something more than us
following what our parents told us.
It's a near universal human desire. Amazingly, most people actually
feel that contact with the divine.
See above
Sometimes through prayer and
ritual, sometimes through meditation, sometimes through contemplation,
sometimes through the reading of scriptures, and by many other means,
Yes such as mass hysteria. [watch any telvangelist show for a perfect
example]
we do feel genuine contact with the divine.
See above
For many people, organized
religions aid in that process. Others do so without the help of
priests, preachers, and scriptures.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest."
[Denis Dioderot 1713-1784]
How sweet. But we're almost out of kings. What are we going to do
with all those priest entrails?
Nonetheless, throughout history | | | | |
