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Religions > Bible |
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"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
12 Dec 2007 07:02:25 AM |
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An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1937976/posts
An Uncomfortable Christmas Card for Unbelievers Comfortable at
Christmas
Reformation Theology ^ | Advent 2007 | Rev. Charles R. Biggs
Posted on 12/11/2007 10:37:05 AM PST by Gamecock
Each year at this time, I think about how I would like to remind my
unbelieving friends and loved ones of the glorious gospel and hope
found in Jesus Christ. Seasons like Christmas give us another great
opportunity to make the good news of Jesus known to the whole world,
and especially to those closest to us.
Sadly however, when Christmas comes and we gather with our unbelieving
friends and family, we Christians look into the eyes of our
unbelieving friends and family members excitedly telling them of how
God has greatly blessed us, and what the true meaning of Christmas is
about, only for these glad tidings to be received at best as a nice
sentiment that spiritually falls flat in their response to us, or at
worst it is received as divisive and ignorant, and a subject to be
avoided in our Christmas conversation (for instance: "Happy
Holidays!").
This year I decided to write a letter to those friends and loved ones
who love me, but who do not love Christ; this is a letter to friends
and family who do not believe. I decided to write an uncomfortable
Christmas card for unbelievers comfortable at Christmas.
No one should ever be too comfortable with the truths of Scripture any
time of the year! I think it is important for the truths of Scripture
to keep believers all uncomfortably ever-depending upon Jesus Christ
alone for our righteousness throughout the year (one of the purposes
of gospel preaching). I especially think it is good for unbelieving
friends and relatives to be uncomfortable this time of year when we
celebrate God becoming flesh in order to save those who believe. When
unbelievers become comfortable this time of year, it is time to ask
ourselves as the Church whether we are speaking and proclaiming the
gospel in clear, pointed, penetrating ways as Jesus, John, and Paul
preached it.
If you find this letter helpful, and would like to use it yourself in
order to send to those whom you love and desire them to know Jesus, I
invite you to use it as often as you would like, and to send it to as
many as you would like.
Merry Christ,
Pastor Biggs
Dear Friend or Loved One Who Loves Me, but Does Not Love Jesus
Christ:
This Christmas, I eagerly and affectionately desire to write to you a
different kind of Christmas message. I long to send you good tidings
of great joy, and high hopes that your Christmas and New Year will be
cheerful and full of good things, but I also want to write to make you
as uncomfortable with the Christmas message as possible.
"Why would I do that?" you may ask. "Why would you want someone you
love to be uncomfortable by the Christmas message?" Well, Christmas is
about more than eating together, mustering up good feelings, enjoying
a restful winter holiday, giving and getting presents, and singing
songs around the Christmas tree (even when we don't feel like
singing). Christmas is much more than that! Now understand me, you can
have a holiday anytime of the year if you want, and if you want to
take a holiday at Christmas time, then that is your prerogative, but
please don't feel comfortable with Christmas and Christmas things.
The gospel message of Christmas should greatly frighten all who do not
believe and love Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. God, the Creator of
heaven and earth, the Great and Powerful God and Maker of the universe
became flesh and dwelt among us; this is the message of Christmas.
This great God who made us all, and to whom we will all be
accountable, became one of us in order to make himself fully known. If
you want to know God, you find him and understand him in the Person
and Work of Jesus Christ; Jesus is the one who reveals God or makes
him known in all of his attributes and righteousness (John 1:14-18).
This Christmas, I want you to consider three very special Christmas
Bible verses, and I want you to feel very uncomfortable each time you
read and hear them until by God's grace you know the Lord Jesus Christ
himself as your Lord and Savior.
These three verses will be found this season in great number on church
signs, songs you hear sung, and in Christmas cards sent by others to
you. In hoping to make you feel uncomfortable, I am not doing this to
be mean, or to be angry, or to cause you to be unnecessarily upset
with me. I am doing this because I believe your eternal destiny is at
stake for not believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and
I take it very seriously because I love you very much! The Bible says
in John 3:18 and 3:36:
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does
not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the
name of the only Son of God....John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has
eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but
the wrath of God remains on him.
There are only two kinds of people at Christmas: those who believe in
the Christmas message, and those who do not believe the Christmas
message.
Those who do not believe in Christ the Son, who was sent by God to
save sinners, are already condemned. This means that if you are an
unbeliever, or one who rejects Christ outright, or merely accepts
Christ on your own terms as a good religious teacher, you abide under
God's wrath for your sins at this very moment (John 3:18, 36), and
this is not something to take lightly- -but fearfully and
uncomfortably until you find your sins forgiven and your rest in Jesus
Christ alone.
My hope as you read further is that you would feel greatly
uncomfortable and convicted by your sins against God and man, and that
the powerful Holy Spirit of God would reveal your need, hope, and
ultimate and eternal comfort to be found in Christ alone!
With that said, may you never think the same comfortable, mere
sentimental "Christmas" thoughts about the following Biblical
passages! I am taking three familiar passages, two from Isaiah the
Prophet (Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 40:1-5) and one from the Gospel of
Luke. Let's read together Isaiah 9:6-7:
"For Unto Us a Child Is Born..." Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is
born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his
shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty
God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his
government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David
and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice
and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal
of the LORD of hosts will do this.
This prophecy of Isaiah that is quite familiar and quoted very
comfortably during the Christmas season is about the manger
ultimately. This prophecy is about a child being born and a son being
given for sinners. Notice how this child, this son is described: 1) He
shall be a great ruler over all governments ("the government shall be
upon his shoulder"); 2) He shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty
God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; and, 3) His great rule will
increase so that peace will cover the face of the earth and his
Kingdom will extend throughout the earth and throughout eternity. He
will rule with justice and righteousness forever.
This should only comfort you if you believe upon Jesus Christ, the
child, the son who is given for us. Otherwise, this prophecy should
greatly threaten your comfortable existence. The first way he is
described is a great ruler over all governments. Do you bow before him
in service and worship as your king? Do you treat this Jesus Christ as
a King, a great and mighty ruler? Do you understand that even though
you might not recognize his sovereign rule, he does indeed rule? In
fact, the risen ascended Christ has authority over heaven and earth
(Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:19-21). If you do not obey and serve Christ as
King, you are guilty of cosmic treason against the King, and he will
judge you for your unrighteous trespassing on property that has been
claimed by him as his own, and over which he rules and reigns even
now.
Secondly, Jesus is described as Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Do you long for someone to guide
you through this dark world of sin and misery, giving you a sense of
purpose and understanding of who you are and who God is? HE is the
Wonderful Counselor to guide and teach you. Do you listen to his
counsel; or do you reject it; or are you disinterested in his counsel
to you through the Bible?
Jesus came to make known the true God and he said that salvation was a
knowledge of the True and Living God found in himself (John 17:1-3).
Is he your wise and great Counselor, or do you live life on your
terms, your way, according to your puny knowledge?
Jesus is called Mighty God. Do you recognize Jesus Christ, born in a
manger of a virgin, from the little town of Nazareth, born in
Bethlehem to be God himself for us? Jesus Christ was born as man to
reveal God in all his greatness and power to us! Jesus called himself
the Great "I AM", making himself equal with Jehovah God. Jesus claimed
to be very God of very God, that is, equal with God.
The Apostle John opens his gospel with these words (speaking of Christ
as 'The WORD'): "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with
God, and the Word was God." Do you acknowledge him as God and Creator
of all things? Think of how a Word describes and communicates
something. John is saying that Jesus Christ was God's communication of
himself "The Word made flesh" to make his love and grace known (John
1:14).
I beg of you who think of Jesus as a merely another sentimental
Christmas icon (along with Frosty and Santa), don't come to the manger
to peer in and fondle God's Son unless you are coming humbly as a
sinner to bow to him as Lord, to serve and worship him! Do not come to
Jesus merely thinking of him as "baby Christmas Jesus", or merely a
good teacher, or a nice man who lived and made a bit of a difference
in the world.
Jesus witnessed of himself, and other Scripture writers witnessed of
him that he was the Mighty God; he is nothing less and will accept
nothing less than your obedience and worship as God.
Jesus is called Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace. As Everlasting
Father he shows to us eternal love and care. No matter how much
hardship we have endured, no matter how far we have gone from the love
of God, and how much we have sinned again him, he receives the humble
and repentant back as his children. He has come to save his own, not
to condemn those who believe! Do you believe you have sinned against
him as a naughty and sinful child of the Creator? Do you believe he is
a forgiving Father (despite what kind of earthly father you had, or
did not have)? Jesus says he came specifically for the sinners, not
the righteous; he came to seek and save the lost! Are you lost? This
"Everlasting Father" full of grace and truth has come to heal your
wounds and forgive you your sins.
As Prince of Peace, Jesus has come to bring peace with God so that
guilty consciences can be silenced by God's grace and love. Do you
long to know the peace with God that only Jesus can bring in
reconciling you to the Father through his bloody death? Romans 5:1
says of believers that we receive reconciliation with the Father
through Jesus Christ alone. Why? Because Jesus died as a sin offering,
taking the wrath of God that sinners deserve upon himself, so that we
could have peace with God.
Do you want this peace of God that passes all of your understanding?
Not some fragile, temporal and idyllic peace of the world where
everyone just "tries to get along" (the impossible!), but an eternal
peace with God the Father and with those who are called by his name.
Do you understand that accepting this peace causes you to be at enmity
with those who do not believe? Jesus brings peace with God for those
who believe, but he also divides families in the process. Jesus said
that father and son, mother and daughter, and other members of one
family will be divided because of the peace he offers. Some will give
their all to him, and some will despise him in the same family- -but
he comes to bring the eternal peace with God that truly matters and
makes us members of his own family.
Jesus' Kingdom is spoken of as extending throughout the world and
throughout eternity. Are you a member of that Kingdom through belief
in Jesus Christ? If you do not believe, as part of the display of his
righteousness and justice, he will punish eternally in hell those who
deny him. The only way and hope for salvation is found in Jesus
Christ. Since he is the Great God and King, he calls the shots! If he
says that there is only one way to receive eternal life and it is
found in him, then he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man
comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6).
If this great God and King says that those who oppose and deny him
will be eternally punished and cut off from the grace and mercy of
God, then this will occur because the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
The Book of Revelation says when he returns it will be as a Mighty
Warrior and as God Almighty to save and redeem his own of this world
of sin and misery and to punish with fire those who do not believe
(Revelation 19:11-16). This is not a picture of a baby in a manger,
but of a warrior on a white horse full of the righteous and just wrath
of Almighty God!
Repent now before it is too late. But please, stop merely thinking of
Jesus as just another nice religious teacher, and baby Jesus as
another American Christmas icon, and accept him as Lord and Savior. We
shall now look at another popular text of Scripture from Isaiah 40:
"Comfort, Comfort My People..." Isaiah 40:1-5: Comfort, comfort my
people, says your God. 2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and cry to her
that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned, that she has
received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins. 3 A voice
cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight
in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted
up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall
become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory of the
LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the
mouth of the LORD has spoken."
This is another famous portion of Scripture that has been made famous
by Handel's 'Messiah', but I beg you not to get too comfortable with
it. Rather, heed and hear its message! It is good to be uncomfortable
in God's presence in order that perhaps through the work of the Holy
Spirit and humility, you might seek after God in the face of Jesus
Christ and find true and lasting comfort in his saving and loving
arms- -but do not reject him!
Notice how this prophecy of Isaiah begins with words of comfort. This
seems to be the opposite of what I am trying to do in my Christmas
letter you might think. But notice something important: the comfort
that God wants Isaiah to speak is address to his people. God says to
comfort "my people" and to speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and from this
Old Testament perspective, to speak to Jerusalem, meant to speak to
those who were confessing to be God's people.
The sad news is that Jesus came to his own in Jerusalem, but many did
not receive him. Those who received him in Jerusalem and in other
parts of the worlds were saved, and were called sons of the living
God, and were those to whom words of comfort could be spoken (John
1:9-12).
God, the living God, Creator of Heaven and Earth speaks through his
Scripture. There are no more prophets like Isaiah, but Isaiah's words
are still in the Bible for us, and when we speak or declare these
words, it is God speaking to us (Heb. 4:1-11). Is God speaking
tenderly to you through these words? Do you find comfort in these
words?
For these words were written as preparatory for those who confessed
faith in God to be eagerly awaiting and eagerly watching for a voice,
one calling in the wilderness to prepare the way of the LORD, in order
for the LORD to come and make his glory manifest all over the earth.
The voice that was prophesied in Isaiah was John the Baptist (Matthew
3), and John testified and witnessed to Jesus, who was God come in the
flesh. The words of comfort here were for those eagerly awaiting and
anticipating the arrival of God in the flesh, who were those who
believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe in God's Christ
can truly take comfort as his people.
Do you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ who has come ("Joy to the
world the Lord is come?!")? Do you await the Lord Jesus' coming? Then
you should be uncomfortable in the presence of God and His Christ.
This passage in Isaiah goes on to say that the glory of God shall be
revealed, and all flesh shall see it. The Apostle John writes in John
1:18 that we have "beheld his glory" that is, the glory of God was
revealed in the face of Jesus Christ (John 1:14-18).
Do you see God's glory in the testimony of Jesus Christ found in the
Scriptures? Jesus says that blessed are those who saw him and
believed, but even greater blessings await those who do not see yet
believe (John 20). In the Bible, we see the glory of God (that is all
of who and what God is) in Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is your only hope of comfort and source of joy in this
present evil age, as well as in the world to come. Do not make this
prophecy a prophecy that is just part of the make up and background
music of Christmastime. Let this prophecy make you feel greatly
uncomfortable, and seek comfort in God alone. God speaks comfort to
HIS PEOPLE- -those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ--not those who
reject him selfishly.
And for those who are part of the Christian Church, who confess
Christianity as their religion. Do you hope in Jesus Christ alone for
your salvation? Are you comforted by Christ and something you have
done for him as the basis or source of your salvation? Only in Christ
alone will you find the righteousness of God that God requires in
order to be saved and redeemed from death, hell, and the devil.
Remember also for those who are outwardly Christian in name. This
comfort was written for those in Jerusalem who confessed their belief
in God. When Christ came however, many of them rejected him because he
was not the Savior they desired. Do you long for Christ's return as
the Christ that is revealed in Scripture?
Do you believe in Christ alone not trusting merely in the fact that
"Jesus is just alright with you" and that perhaps the Christian
religion seems the best option or choice for you among many good
religious out there? Or, is belief upon Jesus Christ your only hope of
eternal life, the very revelation of God's glory and righteousness,
and the one you hope in daily in order to be saved from hell?
"Would Someone Tell Me What Christmas is All About?!" Finally, we
shall turn to Luke 2. Growing up as an unbeliever, I was thankful for
the opportunity every year to hear Linus Van Pelt in Charles M.
Schultz's 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' broadcast on CBS, to hear the
gospel good tidings of Jesus born in a manger. If you remember the
cartoon, Charlie Brown the main character, while unsuccessfully trying
to direct a Christmas play, yells out in great frustration: "Would
someone please tell me what Christmas is all about!"
His friend Linus asks the lights to be dimmed, and steps forward into
the spotlight, to declare the gospel of hope for all those who would
believe. I remember believing sentimentally in what Linus was saying
when I was a child, but it was not until later that I truly believed
the truth of what Linus (and Luke) were saying in Luke 2! May you also
come to understand this as more than a quotation from 'A Charlie Brown
Christmas' and a sentimental Christmas wish- -and come to know the
Lord Jesus Christ, the babe in the manger!
Luke 2:8-16: And in the same region there were shepherds out in the
field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the
Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them,
and they were filled with fear. 10 And the angel said to them, "Fear
not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for
all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David
a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you:
you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a
manger." 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 "Glory to God in the
highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" 15
When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to
one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has
happened, which the Lord has made known to us." 16 And they went with
haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger.
Notice in this passage that when the angels appeared with this great
and glorious news it caused sinful shepherds to quake in their boots
at this vision in the dark night sky. The angel of the Lord tells them
(and the entire world) not to fear because they bring glad tidings, or
gospel good news from God himself! In order to find peace and hope
they were to go to a manger, and in that manger they would find
eternal hope in a baby. He was a Savior and was Christ the Lord.
What does this mean? It means that the little baby in Bethlehem's
stable was a Savior of sinners and an Anointed One full of God's
Spirit to save and renew those enslaved by sin and misery. A savior is
one who can redeem, or purchase back from slavery, and Jesus said that
he came to give his life a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). Jesus as
Savior came to save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). As an
Anointed One (which is the translation of 'Christ' from a Greek word;
Christ is not his last name!), Jesus is one full of the Spirit of God,
able to save the lost, able to renew them by His Spirit, able to lay
down his life in order to take it up again for them in resurrection,
and able to take away all the guilt and pollution in them because of
their sins and unrighteousness.
This was great news but it was not for everyone, and so once again
please stop merely sentimentalizing this passage, and remember to whom
it is addressed specifically. Don't get me wrong, this message should
be proclaimed to the whole world; this message of this baby in the
manger is God's only hope for peace, hope, and love for mankind, and
this is to be declared to as many as possible.
But the actual point of this message, that is, the message as a
message that makes a difference for a weary world as far as the curse
is found, is the message addressed to those with whom God is pleased
(Luke 2:14). There have been other translations of this passage, but
this is the best one. God is saying that there is peace on earth and
goodwill toward men in Christ alone! Please do not lie to yourself (or
God), and pretend to think that this message of good tidings and
cheer, and peace on earth is for those who would deny and reject the
Lord Jesus Christ!
God is saying through the angel here that there is true peace found
among those whom he is pleased. God is pleased when men and women no
matter how wicked their sins, or how hopeless their lives, believe
upon the Son he sent to be Savior and Christ, who came to dwell with
man, being born in a manger.
Jesus is the one who came to save us and deliver us from our sins. Do
you know of the hope that only Christ can give? Do you long to know
how to be right with God and the world? Are you tired of each
Christmas getting a glimpse of what it is all about only to find
yourself rejecting him once again?
This Christmas receive the Lord Jesus Christ. As Savior of sinners he
does not require you to be righteous first (he will make you righteous
later)! All that he requires is that you believe and receive the Lord
Jesus Christ as your only Savior and hope.
This is the message of good tidings of great joy that shall be to all
people throughout the earth who believe! Jesus came to be born for
you, to live the law of God perfectly for you; Jesus came to die a
terrible death on a heinous cross for your sins, and he came to be
raised for your justification (or your being declared righteous and no
longer condemned before God!).
Do you believe?
If you do not believe, you have every right to be uncomfortable this
Christmas! The wrath of God abides on you; you are in serious danger.
You should not be comfortable at Christmas or any other time of the
year! Repent of your sins! And believe the good news of Jesus!
Hear the words of Jesus (and I pray with every fiber of my being that
you can hear):
"Come to me, all of you who are burdened by the commands of God, and
of the uncomfortable feeling found in sermons about Jesus and sin, and
who feel like a world of trouble and sin is on your shoulders and that
it is killing you...
Come to me, and I will give you rest! Come to me, and I will give you
rest! Come to me, and I will give you rest!
My burden is easy, and my yoke is light!" - Jesus says.
This means that belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ will give you the
peace for which you so desperately long, and the good news and glad
tidings of Christmas will be truly yours. But don't seek comfort until
you believe and bow before the babe in the manger in worship and
obedience because you have recognized that he is God with us, and if
God is with us, he is for us who believe!
Merry Christmas, and with great and affectionate love,
Charles Randall Biggs
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 10:23:08 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:a20ac4a6-bb0b-4971-b193-4496034ee0af@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
"Would Someone Tell Me What Christmas is All About?!"
Everyone knows that it's a celebration of the birth of the baby Santa.
Duh!
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 04:51:22 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:a20ac4a6-bb0b-4971-b193-4496034ee0af@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1937976/posts
An Uncomfortable Christmas Card for Unbelievers Comfortable at
Christmas
Reformation Theology ^ | Advent 2007 | Rev. Charles R. Biggs
Posted on 12/11/2007 10:37:05 AM PST by Gamecock
Each year at this time, I think about how I would like to remind my
unbelieving friends and loved ones of the glorious gospel and hope
found in Jesus Christ. Seasons like Christmas give us another great
opportunity to make the good news of Jesus known to the whole world,
and especially to those closest to us.
The Jesus story is totally implausible. It is not supported by any solid
objective verifiable evidence. Should we believe in a god for whom there is
NO solid objective evidence? The evidence available is quite the contrary.
It is totally implausible! This Jesus belief is based purely on faith in
totally implausible stories, not factual objective verifiable evidence of
any kind.
The Bibles were written recopied and modified by hundreds of men of unknown
veracity and honesty over a time span of several thousands years. There are
NO ORIGINALS IN EXISTENCE. What ever the originals were have rotted and
disappeared thousands of years ago. We don't know what the originals said.
The Bibles are nothing more than a mixture of myths, fables, contradictions
and impossible tales. There are 18 different versions alone of the English
Bible interpretations.
The Bibles claim this God supposedly came to earth over 2,000 years ago as a
man named Jesus to save mankind from the sins that God himself created and
to preach his wishes and commands. Archeological evidence indicates 'modern'
man has existed approximately 100,000 years. Why did god wait all those
years to come to earth to preach his word and pay for man's sins (which he
himself created!)?
This all powerful creator of this huge Universe supposedly came to Earth as
a baby in a cold manger, in the middle of winter and was born of a virgin
called Mary. Why would he choose to be born in such an ingenuous way?
Arrogant humans had to make up a myth
about a god arriving from the womb of another human.
If Jesus was supposedly born of a Virgin Mary and she was the wife of
Joseph, why was she still a virgin? Why did the women need to be married to
a mortal in order to give birth to a god? And why couldn't this all powerful
god creator just come to earth in what ever form he chose to create? He
supposedly created the Universe and everything in it!
If he could create Adam instantly from dust and Eve from a rib, why did he
use this slow tortuous means to create himself as a god man on earth???
He supposedly grew up as a normal child and worked as a carpenter as an
adult. There are no details in the Bibles about his younger years. After
about THIRTY YEARS, he supposedly announced to the local inhabitants that
he was Jesus the God savior from heaven to tell them God's wishes and
commands.
There are no significant records of Jesus', (the Christ) actual existence in
the non religious documents of the era. Depending upon which Bible story you
choose, it is claimed he preached his doctrines for one, two or three years.
In any case, why put himself on earth for some thirty inconsequential years
and only use a few of these years to preach his doctrines? And then not use
his omnipotent power to preach to the WHOLE world instead of just a
miniscule part of the world around Jerusalem?
Jesus was baptized. In Christianity, baptism is the sacrament of
regeneration and initiation into the Christian church. According to a theme
of St. Paul the Apostle, baptism is death to a former life and the emergence
of a new person, signified by the conferring of a new name; it is the total
annulment of the sins of one's past, from which one emerges a totally
innocent person. Then why would a 'God Jesus' need to be baptized?
His sermons and teachings only reached a miniscule part of the world
population at that time because he did not speak via the equivalent of
International Radio or TV. IF he was an ALL powerful creator of the world,
he certainly would have the ability to speak to ALL of mankind by means at
least as effective as man. Why did this all powerful god creator wait
100,000 years to come and preach to only a very small segment of the world,
for a period of one two or three years, (depending on which Bible story you
choose) and then leave us without ANY solid objective verifiable evidence of
his existence, his wishes and commands? Why did he not preserve his
teachings in some permanent form for all of mankind in the future? The
Bibles were supposedly written by 56 or more authors of unknown veracity
over a period of thousands of years. There are NO - NADA originals of any of
the Bibles in existence. The originals have all rotted and disappeared
thousands of years ago. They are all hand copies of copies etc. of unknown
actual origin. Why would any omnipotent God, creator of this huge complex
Universe, provide his message in such a sloppy, inaccurate, unreliable,
questionable and confusing manor???
Why did he not use his great omnipotent powers to preach to the WHOLE world
from his Heaven, instead of just preaching to an insignificant portion of
the world?? Why did he leave most of mankind totally in the dark?
He supposedly distributed his word via hand copied books called the Bibles.
Yet NONE of the Bibles were written during his 'claimed' time on earth. The
original Bibles were hand written and hand recopied more than 1500 years
before the invention of the printing press. There is no evidence that Jesus
ever wrote a word. NO ORIGINAL copies of ANY of the Bibles exist. Why did he
not preserve them? The Bibles now in existence are hand copies of copies
etc. of unknown and doubtful veracity. They are largely myths, fables,
hearsay and implausible tales. The four books of the New Testament were
written and copied somewhere between 60 and 200 years AFTER Jesus' supposed
existence. None of the authors could have known him directly. They are all
third person fictional narratives of unknown veracity. Why would a real god,
creator of this huge Universe, not arrange for the creation of clear,
authentic, contemporary and permanent copies of his word?
During his brief adulthood, preaching his word, he is 'claimed' to have
restored site to a few of the blind, restored mobility to a few of the
crippled and restored health to a few of the sick. Why was he so niggardly
about helping the poor, the disabled and the sick? Is this the likely
conduct of an all loving God creator?
After the one, two or three years he preached, (depending on which Bible
story you believe) to only the locals. His preaching only reached a very
small part of the world's population. He did not avail himself of any
communication means as effective as Radio, TV, Telephone or the Internet. He
then allowed himself to be painfully and brutally crucified on a cross
between two criminals to pay for man's sins (which he created). If he died
on the cross to save mankind, why was mankind no better off after this
supposed crucifixion than before? Was all this blood and gore for nothing?!
The Roman courts were models of order and fairness. A man was not condemned
without a trial; he was not handed to the executioner before being found
guilty. And yet we are asked to believe that a totally innocent man was
brought before a Roman court, where Pontius Pilate was Judge; that no charge
of wrongdoing having been brought against him, the Judge declared that he
found him innocent; but the mob shouted, "Crucify him; crucify him!" and to
please the rabble, Pilate commanded that the man whom he had found innocent,
should be delivered to the executioners to be crucified! Also, real
criminals were crucified by being 'tied' to the cross - not nailed! What was
the purpose of all this blood and gore? Why should any REAL god need to
suffer for man's sins??? (which god created)
Why was his life and crucifixion not in any of the numerous historical
documents of the time??? Why is this only in church documents?
If Jesus performed the wonderful miracles the New Testament describes, why
did the people want him crucified? Is it not amazing that a civilized people
would demand that a kind and loving man who went about doing good works, who
preached forgiveness, cleansed the leprous, and raised the dead - that they
could not be appeased until they had brutally crucified the noblest
benefactor of mankind? This makes NO sense at all!
If he could create the Universe and every thing in it, (including sin) why
did he not just forgive man's sins, directly from his heaven, without all
this blood and gore? Three days after he died he supposedly rose from the
dead and returned to his heaven. Why did he wait uncomfortably in a crypt
for three days after his death and internment to return to his magnificent
heaven? Why did he wait 30 years!? How can an immortal god die? Jesus did
not die for our sins. People are still praying to him in his supposed heaven
and there is NO objective verifiable evidence that ANY of these prayers are
answered. There are only the OPINIONS of other of errant men.
What was the logic and purpose of this gruesome and painful killing? Only a
miniscule part of the world's population at the time would be aware of this
claimed sacrifice.
Billions of people today are still not knowledgeable believers of this
highly implausible story. Why did he not preserve a video tape, DVD or other
permanent record of this historic episode? If man is capable of these
devices certainly a god creator should be equally or more proficient.
Why did this God wait over 100,000 years to communicate with only a
minuscule portion of humanity in such a crude and ineffective manner and not
leave any authenticated documents accurately substantiating his appearance?
Why has he failed to communicate further for over 2,000 years?
He supposedly went through this torture and humiliating death to pay for
mans sins which he himself created! Why did he not just wave his wand and
forgive mans sins and skip all the ridiculous blood and gore??? Why did he
create sin in the first place? This should be no problem for a god that
created Adam from dust and Eve from Adam's rib, and this immense complex
Universe. Why do people supposedly still have the same sins that he died
for?
Why does he encourage or permit Christians to drink his blood and eat his
flesh? Isn't this a pagan ritual?
Why does he continue to allow thousands of greedy self serving men to
deliver his word to his flock in such a vague, inconsistent, contradictory,
and ineffectual manner? There are hundreds of different Christian sects and
beliefs. There are thousands of different religious and god beliefs and
practices. Why does he allow this gross confusion? Why does he not
communicate clearly and DIRECTLY to his entire flock that he is the real god
and all the others are fakes? It would be more responsible and more
effective to eliminate this gross confusion?
If he is the real god, why does he even permit the belief and propagation of
thousands of false gods and false religions?
The Christ tale is obviously pure myth, fable and legend.
The objective evidence is that God did not create man but quite the
contrary; that man created Gods! (Including Jesus!)
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 03:04:01 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist. Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true. But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 11:20:03 PM |
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Gabriel wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Of course not you twit, it means that Bill, myself and thousands
more human beings despair at the sight of their contemporaries
groveling to imaginary gods
Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
THAT you DO
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true.
That is because folks do not pray to santa clause to make them
better
But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
not a lot. In my case about forty minutes a day here, in part for a
laugh and a 'sigh' at the contortions of my fellow man trying to
prop up their plethora of gods. [May i remind you that atheists
reject ALL gods]
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
ROFL. In your dreams
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
I'll do it today
RIGHT NOW
<PLONK>
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 05:12:16 AM |
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On 12 Dec 2007 23:20:03 -0600, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Of course not you twit, it means that Bill, myself and thousands
more human beings despair at the sight of their contemporaries
groveling to imaginary gods
Unfortunately, you show you're being less than honest again,
Bill, yet again. You claim you're concerned for those people. But
your behavior and insults shows instead you despise them.
You did allude to one accuracy, however: the despair you feel.
This is the despair of the judgment of God your conscience is
trying to warn you about for rejecting and mocking Him your whole
life if you don't repent. It's this despair you feel from your
own conscience that you try to silence with the huge amount of
time you spend in religious newsgroups attacking and insulting as
many people as you can. It's this warning from your conscience
that is clearly driving you to spend as much time as believers do
in religious newsgroups. Running from the truth your own behavior
is a testimony of will not make it any less real. And if you
repent and call on Christ to save you, He will! Just like He does
to anyone!
2 Peter 3:9 KJVR
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing
that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Praise God!
Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
THAT you DO
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true.
That is because folks do not pray to santa clause to make them
better
But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
not a lot. In my case about forty minutes a day here, in part for a
laugh and a 'sigh' at the contortions of my fellow man trying to
prop up their plethora of gods. [May i remind you that atheists
reject ALL gods]
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
ROFL. In your dreams
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
I'll do it today
RIGHT NOW
<PLONK>
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 06:46:17 AM |
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Gabriel wrote:
Unfortunately, you show you're being less than honest again,
Bill, yet again. You claim you're concerned for those people. But
your behavior and insults shows instead you despise them.
Right. That's because he's compelled by his religion. He is a prophet for the
One True Creed, which is Atheism.
You did allude to one accuracy, however: the despair you feel.
This is the despair of the judgment of God your conscience is
trying to warn you about for rejecting and mocking Him your whole
life if you don't repent.
And the compulsion works both ways! (-;
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 04:51:20 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:46:17 -0800, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com>
wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
Unfortunately, you show you're being less than honest again,
Bill, yet again. You claim you're concerned for those people. But
your behavior and insults shows instead you despise them.
Right. That's because he's compelled by his religion. He is a prophet for the
One True Creed, which is Atheism.
You did allude to one accuracy, however: the despair you feel.
This is the despair of the judgment of God your conscience is
trying to warn you about for rejecting and mocking Him your whole
life if you don't repent.
And the compulsion works both ways! (-;
Actually we don't feel despair. We're already saved, and now try
to help pass this blessing on to other people. Many who don't
believe remain neutral about it. Then there are some that are far
from neutral and instead viciously attack day in and day out,
spending huge amounts of time in religious newsgroups every day -
it's to those I speak of that it's obvious their conscience has a
hold of the truth, and they're fighting every day to silence
their own conscience. The way they spend their time speaks
volumes of the truth God really does have on their heart; a truth
they're trying desperately to silence. )-:
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:00:59 AM |
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bob young wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
Bill, myself and thousands
more human beings despair at the sight of their contemporaries
groveling to imaginary gods
Why do you despair at seeing anothers' pleasure? Kinda sick of
atheists, dontcha ya thinK?
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 11:22:16 PM |
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bob young wrote:
Of course not you twit, it means that Bill, myself and thousands
more human beings despair at the sight of their contemporaries
groveling to imaginary gods
Absolutely. Standing up and looking them right in their imaginary eye is much
more mentally healthy!
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:03:01 AM |
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Phlip wrote:
bob young wrote:
Of course not you twit, it means that Bill, myself and thousands
more human beings despair at the sight of their contemporaries
groveling to imaginary gods
Absolutely. Standing up and looking them right in their imaginary eye is
much more mentally healthy!
An eye for an eye. LOL
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:13:48 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Phlip wrote:
Absolutely. Standing up and looking them right in their imaginary eye
is much more mentally healthy!
An eye for an eye. LOL
A very famous skeptic of all things metaphysical, Jane Roberts, once said "The
gods do not come kneeling, so don't kneel to them!" (IIRC...)
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:25:43 AM |
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Phlip wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Phlip wrote:
Absolutely. Standing up and looking them right in their imaginary eye
is much more mentally healthy!
An eye for an eye. LOL
A very famous skeptic of all things metaphysical, Jane Roberts, once
said "The gods do not come kneeling, so don't kneel to them!" (IIRC...)
Since gods don't pray to man, man shouldn't pray to them? Impossible.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
16 Dec 2007 12:31:02 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Phlip wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Phlip wrote:
Absolutely. Standing up and looking them right in their imaginary eye
is much more mentally healthy!
An eye for an eye. LOL
A very famous skeptic of all things metaphysical, Jane Roberts, once
said "The gods do not come kneeling, so don't kneel to them!" (IIRC...)
Since gods don't pray to man, man shouldn't pray to them? Impossible.
Point missed or dodged.
The writer's hidden message is in the first five words
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:35:26 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
A very famous skeptic of all things metaphysical, Jane Roberts, once
said "The gods do not come kneeling, so don't kneel to them!" (IIRC...)
Since gods don't pray to man, man shouldn't pray to them? Impossible.
Not "praying". "Kneeling".
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:46:08 AM |
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Phlip wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
A very famous skeptic of all things metaphysical, Jane Roberts, once
said "The gods do not come kneeling, so don't kneel to them!" (IIRC...)
Since gods don't pray to man, man shouldn't pray to them? Impossible.
Not "praying". "Kneeling".
Parsing.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 03:31:32 PM |
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Gabriel wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
Nor does repeating "GOD REALLY EXISTS!"
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist. Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Unless, of course, you're putting forth the effort to defend yourself
against irrational claims of deity.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true. But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Did you stop to consider why that might be?
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
Oops, wrongity wrong.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
Y'know, if true believers weren't so interested in forcing their
personal beliefs upon everyone, atheists would have far less reason to
mention their disbelief. But then, maybe you're trying to convince
yourself you're correct.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
Does it bring you joy being so dishonest?
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 08:30:04 AM |
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JessHC wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
Nor does repeating "GOD REALLY EXISTS!"
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist. Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Unless, of course, you're putting forth the effort to defend yourself
against irrational claims of deity.
.... with irrational claims of non deity.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true. But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Did you stop to consider why that might be?
You obsess over getting rid of the emotional attatchment you have to
God, the one emotional attatchment you haven't a prayer of getting rid of.
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
Oops, wrongity wrong.
Sand box wisdom.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
Y'know, if true believers weren't so interested in forcing their
personal beliefs upon everyone, atheists would have far less reason to
mention their disbelief. But then, maybe you're trying to convince
yourself you're correct.
Why do you obsess over disproving the incorrectness of others.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
Does it bring you joy being so dishonest?
LOL
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 09:58:17 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:31:32 -0800 (PST), JessHC
<jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
Nor does repeating "GOD REALLY EXISTS!"
God exists whether we say it or not.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist. Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Unless, of course, you're putting forth the effort to defend yourself
against irrational claims of deity.
He wasn't responding to anyone. He goes out of his way to find
religious newsgroups and posts there. But you knew that.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true. But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Did you stop to consider why that might be?
I said why. Do you stop to consider it might be right?
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
Oops, wrongity wrong.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time. If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
Y'know, if true believers weren't so interested in forcing their
personal beliefs upon everyone,
Responding to a post an atheist put in religious newsgroups is
forcing our beliefs upon everyone? Perhaps you have it backwards.
atheists would have far less reason to
mention their disbelief. But then, maybe you're trying to convince
yourself you're correct.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
Does it bring you joy being so dishonest?
If you didn't know your wife/husband was cheating on you, you'd
call a person a liar that tried to tell you it was true if you
were more interested in remaining blind to the truth. And in the
end you'd be wrong. Does it help you out in any way to remain in
denial of the truth? No. And in the end the person who tried to
tell you was trying to do you a favor.
.
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 10:41:45 PM |
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God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 04:58:09 AM |
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On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:41:45 -0800, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com>
wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
That's where God's Word and the life of Jesus Christ comes in. We
know all we need to know, and we experience it first hand when we
repent, accept Christ as our personal savior, and come to know
His grace and blessings.
.
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| User: "Phlip" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 06:47:08 AM |
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Gabriel wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
That's where God's Word and the life of Jesus Christ comes in. We
know all we need to know, and we experience it first hand when we
repent, accept Christ as our personal savior, and come to know
His grace and blessings.
Those are articles of faith, not knowledge. Whether or not you claim to believe
them, you should still look both ways before crossing a street!
.
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 04:39:43 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:47:08 -0800, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com>
wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
That's where God's Word and the life of Jesus Christ comes in. We
know all we need to know, and we experience it first hand when we
repent, accept Christ as our personal savior, and come to know
His grace and blessings.
Those are articles of faith, not knowledge. Whether or not you claim to believe
them, you should still look both ways before crossing a street!
We have more than just articles of faith when we receive Christ
into our hearts. Now we begin to experience firsthand the
blessings of God in our lives, and the transformations it makes.
Praise God!
.
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| User: "3887 Dead" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 10:28:15 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:58:09 -0500, Gabriel
<gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:41:45 -0800, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com>
wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
That's where God's Word and the life of Jesus Christ comes in. We
know all we need to know, and we experience it first hand when we
repent, accept Christ as our personal savior, and come to know
His grace and blessings.
You have every right.
Just repect our right to disagree.
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has
become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years
of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you
don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans
are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious
thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their
misfortune.
I’m registering Independent tomorrow."
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essays-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
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| User: "Gabriel" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 04:44:37 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:28:15 GMT, 3887 Dead
<zepp22113887@finestplanet.com> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:58:09 -0500, Gabriel
<gabriel_baptist@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:41:45 -0800, Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com>
wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what we say
_about_ it.
That's where God's Word and the life of Jesus Christ comes in. We
know all we need to know, and we experience it first hand when we
repent, accept Christ as our personal savior, and come to know
His grace and blessings.
You have every right.
Just repect our right to disagree.
To do so civilly, of course we respect your right to disagree.
Just realize that the motivation for bringing up the topic is to
do a person a favor, as we honestly believe people without Christ
are headed towards disaster. But the choice of course is
completely theirs, and we as believers in Christ have no ability
whatsoever to force a decision on anyway.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 08:32:37 AM |
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Phlip wrote:
God exists whether we say it or not.
Even if so, then Its characteristics will remain unknown, no matter what
we say _about_ it.
An unknown is no longer unknown, after the fact, 'no matter what
we say _about_ it'.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
12 Dec 2007 06:46:25 PM |
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On Dec 12, 1:04 pm, Gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Now that's a rational argument:
An atheist thinks about God, therefore God exists.
Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Just because you lunatics are forcing us to think about your delusions
because you're on the verge of getting us all killed doesn't mean God
exists. We have to think about your deranged behaviour out of self
defence.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true.
So apply your own dumb argument to yourself. You just spent time
thinking about Santa Claus (not clause!), by your own "logic," that
means YOU think he exists.
But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Again, we're trying to talk YOU out of YOUR delusions, and also, it's
nice to talk with other like-minded people about what a bunch of
dangerous lunatics you lot are. Collectively.
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
That is so dumb it makes me ache. It is just screaming out to me that
it is YOU who have doubts.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time.
Okay, genius. You just spent time thinking about ATHEISM! GASP! So by
your "logic," that is evidence that your conscience knows the truth.
Man. Is there a school where they teach you how to come up with stupid
arguments?
If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
If you have any objective evidence that God exists, present it. Until
then, your "truth" about God is just a subjective opinion, and can be
dismissed on that basis. It's YOU who are not objective.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
I hope one day you stop being a sanctimonious twit. That's short for
being illogical with an unwarranted superiority complex (not that it's
ever warranted).
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 08:52:11 AM |
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Neil Kelsey wrote:
On Dec 12, 1:04 pm, Gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Now that's a rational argument:
An atheist thinks about God, therefore God exists.
God exists in the atheist's mind, else the atheist would not obsess over
ridding his mind of Him.
Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Just because you lunatics are forcing us to think about your delusions
because you're on the verge of getting us all killed doesn't mean God
exists. We have to think about your deranged behaviour out of self
defence.
When was the last time a believer in God tried to kill or get you
killed? Paranoia suits you.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true.
So apply your own dumb argument to yourself. You just spent time
thinking about Santa Claus (not clause!), by your own "logic," that
means YOU think he exists.
God is inborn, Santa is not.
But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Again, we're trying to talk YOU out of YOUR delusions, and also, it's
nice to talk with other like-minded people about what a bunch of
dangerous lunatics you lot are. Collectively.
Projection suits you.
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
That is so dumb it makes me ache. It is just screaming out to me that
it is YOU who have doubts.
Denial suits you.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time.
Okay, genius. You just spent time thinking about ATHEISM! GASP! So by
your "logic," that is evidence that your conscience knows the truth.
Man. Is there a school where they teach you how to come up with stupid
arguments?
Evasion suits you.
If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
If you have any objective evidence that God exists, present it. Until
then, your "truth" about God is just a subjective opinion, and can be
dismissed on that basis. It's YOU who are not objective.
How objective is your evidence that God does not exist? You know, the
God you can't get out of your mind no matter how hard you try.
I hope you one day make the right decision.
I hope one day you stop being a sanctimonious twit. That's short for
being illogical with an unwarranted superiority complex (not that it's
ever warranted).
LOL
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 02:55:54 PM |
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In article <Zu-dnSnXSYgJ2vzanZ2dnUVZ_tuonZ2d@comcast.com>,
Roy Jose Lorr <Kenthz@comcast.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
On Dec 12, 1:04 pm, Gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Now that's a rational argument:
An atheist thinks about God, therefore God exists.
God exists in the atheist's mind, else the atheist would not obsess over
ridding his mind of Him.
No god need exist in agnostics' minds. Only an awareness that gnostics
have some vision of a god in their minds.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: An Uncomfortable Christmas Card For Unbelievers |
13 Dec 2007 09:08:14 AM |
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On Dec 13, 6:52 am, Roy Jose Lorr <Ken...@comcast.net> wrote:
Neil Kelsey wrote:
On Dec 12, 1:04 pm, Gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:51:22 -0000, "Bill M"
<wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
[snip]
Repeating this all the time doesn't make it true.
But the way you spend so much of your personal time does show
that God does in fact exist.
Now that's a rational argument:
An atheist thinks about God, therefore God exists.
God exists in the atheist's mind, else the atheist would not obsess over
ridding his mind of Him.
Harry Potter exists in the theists mind, else the theist would not
obsess over ridding their mind and everyone else's of him. Idiot.
Unless you want everyone to believe
you put forth such a serious investment of your time for
something that really doesn't exist.
Just because you lunatics are forcing us to think about your delusions
because you're on the verge of getting us all killed doesn't mean God
exists. We have to think about your deranged behaviour out of self
defence.
When was the last time a believer in God tried to kill or get you
killed? Paranoia suits you.
Haven't been keeping up with the news, have you? Denial suits you.
For example, take santa clause. I'm sure you believe he doesn't
exist, and he really doesn't, and you spend no time trying to
convince yourself that's true.
So apply your own dumb argument to yourself. You just spent time
thinking about Santa Claus (not clause!), by your own "logic," that
means YOU think he exists.
God is inborn, Santa is not.
Unsupported assertions suit you.
But take God. You claim he doesn't
exist with just as much fervor, and yet you continue to spend
huge amounts of personal time convincing yourself of this.
Again, we're trying to talk YOU out of YOUR delusions, and also, it's
nice to talk with other like-minded people about what a bunch of
dangerous lunatics you lot are. Collectively.
Projection suits you.
Not understanding what the word "projection" mean suits you.
No, the truth is, you spend a large amount of your personal time
talking about God because your conscience is fully aware of the
truth, and is trying to get your attention, and you do all of
this posturing in an attempt to silence your own conscience.
That is so dumb it makes me ache. It is just screaming out to me that
it is YOU who have doubts.
Denial suits you.
Not understanding what "denial" means suits you.
Perhaps listening to your conscience would be the wiser thing to
do, instead of opposing yourself and ignoring it. If nothing
else, look at the undeniable evidence of how you spend so much of
your personal time.
Okay, genius. You just spent time thinking about ATHEISM! GASP! So by
your "logic," that is evidence that your conscience knows the truth.
Man. Is there a school where they teach you how to come up with stupid
arguments?
Evasion suits you.
Not understanding what "evasion" means suits you.
If you can't even see your own behavior
objectively, that should tell you all you need to know about how
objective you're not being about the truth of God.
If you have any objective evidence that God exists, present it. Until
then, your "truth" about God is just a subjective opinion, and can be
dismissed on that basis. It's YOU who are not objective.
How objective is your evidence | | | | | |
