| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Noahs Dove" |
| Date: |
17 Jan 2008 04:31:08 PM |
| Object: |
Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
Ancient Beliefs
Plato Comes to Church
It is the last half of the second century in North Africa--Alexandria,
Egypt, to be exact--the "Mecca" of intellectualism and contemporary
thinking in the Christian world of the early church era.
The writings of church father Athenagoras (A.D. 127-190) of Alexandria
is the first clue that a departure from the Scripture's holistic view
of man is on the theological horizon.
Born in Athens, Athenagoras was trained in pagan Greek learning and
the philosophy of Plato before he became a Christian. And becoming a
Christian did not invalidate his former views. He was the
first ecclesiastical writer to publicly embrace the immortality of the
soul. Without referencing the Scriptures, Athenagoras advanced his
views directly from Plato's philosophical construct. His theology "is
strongly tinged with Platonism" ("Athenagoras," Encyclopedia
Brittannica, 11th ed., p. 831).
Combine Plato With Christian Doctrine
Athenagoras skillfully argued in his writings that Platonic philosophy
was essentially embraced by Christianity. Therefore, it was congruent
for Athenagoras to interweave both. "Athenagoras frequently combined
the beliefs of the Greek poets and philosophers, particularly Plato,
with the doctrines of Christianity" (Encyclopedia Americana [2001],
vol. 2, p. 605).
According to professor of historical theology Dr. LeRoy Froom,
Athenagoras' "main premise was that God's purpose in creating man was
that he should live--that the divine purpose of man's existence is
existence itself. And God's purpose, he contended, cannot be defeated.
It must be accomplished. It is therefore impossible for man to cease
to exist" (Dr. LeRoy E. Froom, The Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers
[Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Assoc., 1965], vol.1,
p. 931).
The fruitage of this argument was a "compulsory immortality" for all.
With regard to the wicked, Athenagoras reasoned, they must live
forever in eternal misery; and they must exist eternally because the
primary reason God made man is for the purpose of living.
Tertullian Advances the Theory
While Athenagoras launched publicly the immortal soul, a younger
contemporary, Tertullian of Carthage (A.D. 160-240), pursued and
amplified it. He was the first of the church fathers to write in
Latin, soon to be the official language of the medieval church. Prior
to his conversion at age of 40, Tertullian received a Greco-Roman
education in Rome.
According to Froom, "it was Tertullian who first affirmed that
torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-exist with the happiness
of the saved." (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 950.)
Tertullian's propositions needed other modifications: "He [Tertullian]
confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words,
so as to interpret 'death' as eternal misery and 'destruction' and
'consume' as pain and anguish. 'Hell' became perpetually dying, but
never dead" (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 951).
Without hesitation, Tertullian referred directly to Plato in his
writings. Plato's primary theme, "every soul is immortal," became
Tertullian's unwavering platform (Tertullian, On the Resurrection,
chap.3, quoted in ANF, vol.3, p. 547).
These church fathers followed suit by including Tertullian's
propositions in their public preaching and writing: Minucius Felix,
Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan, John Chryosostom and Jerome
(translator of the Bible into the Latin Vulgate).
No Attempt to Support With Scripture
Did they follow blindly? Were these leaders naive? Dr. Froom observes:
"It is to be particularly noted that all Christian Fathers who use
this 'immortal soul' phrase or thought were not only familiar with but
likewise in accord with this position in the writing of Plato. And it
is also to be observed that none of such early Christian writers ever
sought for support for this doctrine by primary appeal to Scripture,
but had recourse instead to arguments similar to those used by
Plato" (Dr. LeRoy E. Froom, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers
[1965], vol. 1, p. 954).
Search for the Immortal Soul, Daniel Knauft, pp. 49-51
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
366. The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created
immediately by God -- it is not "produced" by the parents -- and also
that it is IMMORTAL : it does not perish when it separates from
the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final
Resurrection [cf. Pope Pius XII -Humani Generis-; Pope Paul VI CPG 8;
Lateran Council V (1513)].
The Fire That Consumes
The Fire that Consumes examines the=EF=BF=BD tradition which says God will
keep the wicked alive forever in unending torment. This exhaustive
volume examines every biblical text on the subject and shows that hell
involves the everlasting, total destruction of both body and soul. It
also traces the development of the traditional view of unending
conscious torment, from the early church fathers to the 20th century.
An alternate selection of the Evangelical Book Club, this study has
been acclaimed by scholars worldwide. Contains a foreword by the late
Professor F. F. Bruce of Manchester, England.
TO ORDER the original edition of this groundbreaking book (500 pages),
click here.
=EF=BF=BD
TO READ a brief summary of the biblical material discussed in The Fire
That Consumes, click here.
=EF=BF=BD
WHAT REVIEWERS SAY ABOUT
THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES
COLIN BROWN, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Calif.: "A very
strong case for rethinking the notion of the eternal torment of all
the lost."
F. F. BRUCE (Deceased), University of Manchester, England: "While this
subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical
Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often
engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the
fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr. Fudge
presents here."
LYNN MITCHELL, University of Houston, Texas: "One of the most
important books produced by conservative evangelicals in the 20th
century."
JOHN W. WENHAM (Deceased), Oxford, England: "The author is biblical,
reverent and fair, showing soundness and independence of judgment. He
makes his main points with force and persuasiveness."
CLARK H. PINNOCK, McMaster Divinity College, Hamilton, Ontario: "I
know of no book which answers this powerful case."
W. WARD GASQUE, Eastern College, Philadelphia: "An important and
thought-provoking book that gives careful attention to the actual
words of Scripture."
DALE MOODY (Deceased), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,
Louisville, Ky: "I know of no biblical passage which, interpreted
rightly and in context, conflicts with the conclusions of this book."
THOMAS H. OLBRICHT (Retired), Pepperdine University, Malibu, Calif:
"Evidence for the common assumption that the wicked will suffer
eternal conscious torment may not be as conclusive as assumed."
JOHN F. WALVOORD (Retired), Dallas Theological Seminary: "The most
extensive study [of the subject] in recent years . . . commendably
brings into the discussion many items that are often overlooked." (Dr.
Walvoord expressly disagrees with the conclusions of this book.)
GEORGE LEONARD GOSS, former editor, Evangelical Book Club: "A thorough
and convincing exposition."
NEW OXFORD REVIEW: "Exceptionally evenhanded, forceful and to the
point."
MISSION JOURNAL: "A formidable scriptural argument which defenders of
the popular view will be hard pressed to meet."
EVANGELICAL BOOK CLUB: "A thoughtful case for an opinion that deserves
a hearing."
RESURRECTION MAGAZINE: "The definitive work on conditional
immortality."
ADVENT CHRISTIAN WITNESS: "A work of impeccable scholarship and
pleasing readability."
CHURCH OF ENGLAND NEWSPAPER: "Essential reading for anyone interested
in the subject."
L.E. Froom claims that conditional immortality was generally accepted
in the early church until its thinkers tried to wed Plato=EF=BF=BDs doctrine=
of the immortality of the soul to the teaching of the Bible.=EF=BF=BD [The
Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, Herald Pub., 1966]. Biblically
speaking, human beings are not immortal. God alone has immortality (I
Tim. 6:16); well doers seek immortality (Rom. 2:7); immortality is
brought to light through the gospel (2 Tim. 1:10); those in Christ
will put on immortality (I Cor. 15:54), so that they now partake of
the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4).=EF=BF=BD
Conditionalists commonly argue that the doctrine of natural (or
innate) immortality stems not from Hebrew thought, as presented in the
Bible, but rather from Greek philosophy and the teachings of Plato in
particular.
It is further noted that St. Paul teaches in 1 Timothy 6:15-16 that
"God ... alone is immortal," while in 2 Timothy 1:10 he writes that
immortality only comes to human beings as a gift through the gospel.
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
18 Jan 2008 06:42:30 AM |
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Noah's Dove said on Jan 17, 2:31 pm:
Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church
Just because the ancient Church taught something in
the scriptures that Plato had previously taught
doesn't require that the Church got that teaching
from Plato and not from God. For example, Plato
taught that God exists. The Church teaching the same
thing in the scriptures doesn't require that the
Cburch learned of God's existence from Plato. It's
the same with the teaching that human souls will be
conscious forever.
Noah's Dove said:
... the Scripture's holistic view of man
Is tripartite: "I pray God your whole spirit and
soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
The human soul exists independently from the body,
even though it is holistically joined to the living
body.
Noah's Dove quoted Froom:
"it was Tertullian who first affirmed that
torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-
exist with the happiness of the saved."
Rather, the Bible itself affirms that: "For as the
new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall
your seed and your name remain ... And they shall
go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men
that have transgressed against me, for their worm
shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh"
(Isaiah 66:22,24).
Noah's Dove quoted Froom:
"He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of
Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to
interpret 'death' as eternal misery and
'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish.
'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead"
Rather, the eternal death of the eternal hell is
eternal misery; for the damned "shall have their
part in the lake which burneth with fire and
brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation
21:8); "into hell, into the fire that never shall be
quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-44); "tormented with
fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their
torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have
no rest day nor night" (Revelation 14:10-11).
Noah's Dove quoted the Catholic Catechism:
[The soul] does not perish when it separates from
the body at death
The Bible teaches that, so long as "does not perish"
is defined as "does not cease to be conscious", for
souls remain conscious even after death, even in the
torments of hell: "And it came to pass, that the
beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was
buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in
torments ... I am tormented in this flame" (Luke
16:22-24).
When their bodies die, the souls of believers enter
into heaven and remain conscious: "We are confident,
I say, and willing rather to be absent from the
body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians
5:8); "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is
gain ... having a desire to depart, and to be with
Christ, which is far better" (Philippians 1:21,23).
"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were
slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held; and they cried with a loud voice,
saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou
not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on
the earth? And white robes were given unto every one
of them; and it was said unto them, that they should
rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should
be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
(Revelation 6:9-11).
Noah's Dove quoted the Catholic Catechism:
[The soul] will be reunited with the body at the
final Resurrection
The Bible teaches that. At His second coming, Jesus
will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of
all believers who have ever died, and they will be
joined to their resurrected bodies: "For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep [are dead] in Jesus will God bring
with him ... and the dead in Christ shall rise"
(1 Thessalonians 4:14,16).
After Christ's millennial reign on the earth and a
subsequent battle, all the souls of all unbelievers
who have ever died will be joined to resurrected
bodies and gathered to the great white throne
judgment: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is
coming, in the which all that are in the graves
shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they
that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection
of damnation" (John 5:28-29); "And I saw a great
white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose
face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there
was found no place for them. And I saw the dead,
small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened. And another book was opened, which is
the book of life. And the dead were judged out of
those things which were written in the books,
according to their works. And the sea gave up the
dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered
up the dead which were in them. And they were judged
every man according to their works. And death and
hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
second death. And whosoever was not found written in
the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
(Revelation 20:11-15). "Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and
his angels ... And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life
eternal" (Matthew 25:41,46).
Noah's Dove referred to:
The Fire That Consumes
"The LORD [YHWH] thy God is a consuming [akal] fire"
(Deuteronomy 4:24). The fire that "consumes" does
not annihilate, for even after the fire had
"consumed" some people in the Old Testament, even
their bodies still existed, and had to be carried
away: "And there went out fire from the LORD [YHWH],
and devoured [akal] them ... So they went near, and
carried them in their coats out of the camp"
(Leviticus 10:2,5). The Bible nowhere teaches
annihilation of the soul, or even of the resurrected
bodies of the damned; their bodies will be eaten by
worms forever, their souls will be tormented by fire
forever: "Cast into hell fire, where their worm dieth
not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:47-48);
"tormented with fire and brimstone ... the smoke of
their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and
they have no rest day nor night" (Revelation
14:10-11).
Noah's Dove referred to:
...the doctrine of natural (or innate) immortality
That's a misnomer, for the eternal torment of the
damned in the lake of fire is the second mortality,
the second death: "The lake of fire. This is the
second death" (Revelation 20:14); "The lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second
death" (Revelation 21:8). So the eternal
consciousness of the damned in the lake of fire will
in no way be eternal life, or immortality, but rather
eternal death, eternal mortality.
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
18 Jan 2008 03:01:04 PM |
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On January 18, 2008 07:42 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Noah's Dove said on Jan 17, 2:31 pm:
Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church
Just because the ancient Church taught something in
the scriptures that Plato had previously taught
doesn't require that the Church got that teaching
from Plato and not from God. For example, Plato
taught that God exists. The Church teaching the same
thing in the scriptures doesn't require that the
Cburch learned of God's existence from Plato. It's
the same with the teaching that human souls will be
conscious forever.
The problem is, that Jesus did not teach it. He never said that people had
immortal souls. Instead, he said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he
that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" [John 11:25]
How can anyone have life beyond the grave, apart from Christ?
Noah's Dove said:
... the Scripture's holistic view of man
Is tripartite: "I pray God your whole spirit and
soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
The human soul exists independently from the body,
even though it is holistically joined to the living
body.
Was Paul referring to a person's "mind", here? The brain is destroyed at
death, but the spirit is of God. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it
with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor
wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." [Ecclesiastes 9:10]
Noah's Dove quoted Froom:
"it was Tertullian who first affirmed that
torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-
exist with the happiness of the saved."
Rather, the Bible itself affirms that: "For as the
new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall
your seed and your name remain ... And they shall
go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men
that have transgressed against me, for their worm
shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh"
(Isaiah 66:22,24).
If a worm does not die, is it immortal? Or does it become something else?
The above does not support the idea of infernal torments, that idea came
from the pagans, who used it as a means of controlling people.
Noah's Dove quoted Froom:
"He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of
Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to
interpret 'death' as eternal misery and
'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish.
'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead"
Rather, the eternal death of the eternal hell is
eternal misery; for the damned "shall have their
part in the lake which burneth with fire and
brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation
21:8); "into hell, into the fire that never shall be
quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire
is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-44); "tormented with
fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their
torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and they have
no rest day nor night" (Revelation 14:10-11).
This refers to those who worship the beast, and the image of the beast. This
image of the beast may be referring to TV, as there are people watching it
at all hours of the day and night, it is available 24 hours.
Noah's Dove quoted the Catholic Catechism:
[The soul] does not perish when it separates from
the body at death
The Bible teaches that, so long as "does not perish"
is defined as "does not cease to be conscious", for
souls remain conscious even after death, even in the
torments of hell: "And it came to pass, that the
beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was
buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in
torments ... I am tormented in this flame" (Luke
16:22-24).
When their bodies die, the souls of believers enter
into heaven and remain conscious: "We are confident,
I say, and willing rather to be absent from the
body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians
5:8); "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is
gain ... having a desire to depart, and to be with
Christ, which is far better" (Philippians 1:21,23).
Read 1 Cor 15, which is all about the resurrection. When the dead in Christ
are raised at his coming they will receive immortality.
"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were
slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held; and they cried with a loud voice,
saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou
not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on
the earth? And white robes were given unto every one
of them; and it was said unto them, that they should
rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should
be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"
(Revelation 6:9-11).
Noah's Dove quoted the Catholic Catechism:
[The soul] will be reunited with the body at the
final Resurrection
The Bible teaches that. At His second coming, Jesus
will bring with Him from heaven all of the souls of
all believers who have ever died, and they will be
joined to their resurrected bodies: "For if we
believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep [are dead] in Jesus will God bring
with him ... and the dead in Christ shall rise"
(1 Thessalonians 4:14,16).
Yes, they rise at the resurrection. Until then they "sleep" in death.
After Christ's millennial reign on the earth and a
subsequent battle, all the souls of all unbelievers
who have ever died will be joined to resurrected
bodies and gathered to the great white throne
judgment: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is
coming, in the which all that are in the graves
shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they
that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection
of damnation" (John 5:28-29); "And I saw a great
white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose
face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there
was found no place for them. And I saw the dead,
small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened. And another book was opened, which is
the book of life. And the dead were judged out of
those things which were written in the books,
according to their works. And the sea gave up the
dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered
up the dead which were in them. And they were judged
every man according to their works. And death and
hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
second death. And whosoever was not found written in
the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
(Revelation 20:11-15). "Depart from me, ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and
his angels ... And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life
eternal" (Matthew 25:41,46).
Noah's Dove referred to:
The Fire That Consumes
"The LORD [YHWH] thy God is a consuming [akal] fire"
(Deuteronomy 4:24). The fire that "consumes" does
not annihilate, for even after the fire had
"consumed" some people in the Old Testament, even
their bodies still existed, and had to be carried
away: "And there went out fire from the LORD [YHWH],
and devoured [akal] them ... So they went near, and
carried them in their coats out of the camp"
(Leviticus 10:2,5). The Bible nowhere teaches
annihilation of the soul, or even of the resurrected
bodies of the damned; their bodies will be eaten by
worms forever, their souls will be tormented by fire
forever: "Cast into hell fire, where their worm dieth
not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:47-48);
"tormented with fire and brimstone ... the smoke of
their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever, and
they have no rest day nor night" (Revelation
14:10-11).
Noah's Dove referred to:
...the doctrine of natural (or innate) immortality
That's a misnomer, for the eternal torment of the
damned in the lake of fire is the second mortality,
the second death: "The lake of fire. This is the
second death" (Revelation 20:14); "The lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second
death" (Revelation 21:8). So the eternal
consciousness of the damned in the lake of fire will
in no way be eternal life, or immortality, but rather
eternal death, eternal mortality.
Isaiah wrote, "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for
the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover
the sea." [ Isaiah 11:9]
Jeremiah wrote, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a
hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" [Jeremiah 23:29]
Combining these metaphors, John wrote of a "lake of fire" which purges those
who are put into it. The "second death" is also a metaphor. Eventually
death itself is destroyed [1 Corinthians 15:26].
Doug
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
19 Jan 2008 06:19:44 AM |
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"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:_rmdnfr1mo04jgzanZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@sentex.net...
[snip]
The problem is, that Jesus did not teach it. He never said that people had
immortal souls. Instead, he said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he
that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" [John
11:25]
Yes, He did.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of
damnation.
How can anyone have life beyond the grave, apart from Christ?
Everyone has life beyond the grave. Some will spend it in eternal bliss, and
some in eternal damnation, just like Jesus said.
Do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
[snip]
Ike
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
19 Jan 2008 09:50:32 AM |
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On January 19, 2008 07:19 am, H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
<xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:
"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:_rmdnfr1mo04jgzanZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@sentex.net...
[snip]
The problem is, that Jesus did not teach it. He never said that people
had immortal souls. Instead, he said "I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
[John 11:25]
Yes, He did.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection
of damnation.
Actually it teaches the opposite.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the
tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good
deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a
resurrection of judgment." [John 5::28 NASB]
This teaches a resurrection. That is the opposite of the pagan superstition
of an immortal soul, found in Plato's writing. If the soul was immortal
there would be no need for a resurrection, and there would be no need for
Christ to die for us.
How can anyone have life beyond the grave, apart from Christ?
Everyone has life beyond the grave. Some will spend it in eternal bliss,
and some in eternal damnation, just like Jesus said.
Do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
It is only through Christ that people are raised from the grave. This is
true whether they are believers or not, Jews or Gentiles.
Peter said to the Jewish high priest, and the rulers of the Jews, "Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead,
even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone
which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." [Acts
4:10-12]
Plato's speculation that man is born with an immortal soul is one of the
false teachings that has obscured the gospel, and it also is what partly
fulfils Joel's prophecy, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the
moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come." [Joel
2:31] That is because in prophecy, the sun represents the gospel, as it was
called a "great light" in Genesis 1:16, and the gospel of Jesus was also
called a "great light". Matthew identifies the great light of Isaiah's
prophecy [Isaiah 9:2] with the gospel Jesus preached to the Jews [Matthew
4:16].
In the explanation of his parable about the tares, Jesus said when the tares
are removed, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the
kingdom of their Father". This statement of Jesus also identifies the sun
with the gospel.
The woman in heaven in Revelation 12:1, who represents the church, is
clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel. The gospel becoming
obscured by pagan teachings such as the immortality of the soul was
foretold by Joel's prophecy about the sun becoming dark. That doctrine of
the immortality of the soul removes any need for a resurrection, and yet
the resurrection is very clearly taught in the New Testament. It makes the
death of Jesus on our behalf seem meaningless. Why would the dead need to
be raised, if their souls were inherently immortal, and went either to
heaven or hell upon death? It would make no sense at all.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
19 Jan 2008 02:50:39 PM |
|
|
"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:35CdnWmamKnVgQ_anZ2dnUVZ_oqhnZ2d@sentex.net...
On January 19, 2008 07:19 am, H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
<xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:
"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:_rmdnfr1mo04jgzanZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@sentex.net...
[snip]
The problem is, that Jesus did not teach it. He never said that people
had immortal souls. Instead, he said "I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
[John 11:25]
Yes, He did.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection
of damnation.
Actually it teaches the opposite.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the
tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good
deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a
resurrection of judgment." [John 5::28 NASB]
This teaches a resurrection. That is the opposite of the pagan
superstition
of an immortal soul, found in Plato's writing. If the soul was immortal
there would be no need for a resurrection, and there would be no need for
Christ to die for us.
That's dumb.
The resurrection is of the body, goofball, not the soul.
While Jesus body was in stasis, He was all over the creation in Spirit
taking care of business, as He told the Herodians.
His soul didn't end, and neither does anyone else's.
How can anyone have life beyond the grave, apart from Christ?
Everyone has life beyond the grave. Some will spend it in eternal bliss,
and some in eternal damnation, just like Jesus said.
Do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
It is only through Christ that people are raised from the grave.
Their souls being placed in resurrection bodies.
Talk about departing from the "mainstream:" Have you not read the creeds?
"...we believe in the resurrection of the BODY..."
Not "soul."
The body is what the soul is placed in.
This is
true whether they are believers or not, Jews or Gentiles.
YOU SNIPPED THE QUESTION SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO ANSWER IT, so I'll post it
up again: How could the Israelites know Christ when He didn't come until the
end of their age?
The knew "Jehovah" (which was Christ all along) and they either kept their
faith in Him or didn't, but they didn't KNOW of Christ and His Gospel. So
how could they KEEP the Gospel when there was no "Gospel" yet as we know it
now, BECAUSE Christ came?
No, Israel was defined by the promises of Abraham, as Paul said "the
promises of God are without repentance."
AGAIN, you demonstrate that you don't even know the basis of the Bible, and
you can snip it again, but it WON'T hide your ignorance.
Peter said to the Jewish high priest, and the rulers of the Jews, "Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the
dead,
even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone
which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." [Acts
4:10-12]
Which was true AFTER Christ came, and Peter was speaking AFTER Christ came.
Again, you ignore what Jesus said: "For the law and the prophets were UNTIL
John, but NOW the Kingdom is preached."
Plato's speculation that man is born with an immortal soul is one of the
false teachings that has obscured the gospel, and it also is what partly
fulfils Joel's prophecy, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the
moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come."
[Joel
2:31]
Horseshit: The Bible teaches the immortal soul from the beginning, as
Genesis says "and Adam became an immortal soul."
So what if Plato said the same thing? Even a stopped watch is right twice as
day.
And your equation with Joel's prophecy with Plato is nonsense, too.
That is because in prophecy, the sun represents the gospel, as it was
called a "great light" in Genesis 1:16, and the gospel of Jesus was also
called a "great light". Matthew identifies the great light of Isaiah's
prophecy [Isaiah 9:2] with the gospel Jesus preached to the Jews [Matthew
4:16].
In prophecy, the "sun" represents fathers, the "moon" represents mothers,
and "stars" represent their children.
In Joel, the "sun" represents Israel, which will enter into its former
abominations in the new temple, the "moon" represents the antichristians
killing off the true believers, thinking they "do God service," and their
Satanic children will be cast down in the war in heaven.
NONE of this has a damn thing to do with Plato.
In the explanation of his parable about the tares, Jesus said when the
tares
are removed, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the
kingdom of their Father". This statement of Jesus also identifies the sun
with the gospel.
The "sun" being WHOLE ISRAEL after Jesus sorts out the frauds from the
believers in the resurrection.
The woman in heaven in Revelation 12:1, who represents the church, is
clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel.
WRONG!
The woman represents whole Israel bringing forth the remnant, as embodied in
Mary bringing forth Christ, and THAT'S who Satan goes after...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman [Israel], and went to make
war with the REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God AND
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Again, do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
The gospel becoming
obscured by pagan teachings such as the immortality of the soul was
foretold by Joel's prophecy about the sun becoming dark.
Horseshit: Joel's prophecy has nothing to DO with the "obscuring of Jesus'
teachings."
YOU are obscuring Jesus' teachings, and it is YOU the prophecy is about,
denying the triunion of Israel that "was," "is," and "will be" with your
abominable interpretations of prophecy.
That doctrine of
the immortality of the soul removes any need for a resurrection, and yet
the resurrection is very clearly taught in the New Testament. It makes the
death of Jesus on our behalf seem meaningless. Why would the dead need to
be raised, if their souls were inherently immortal, and went either to
heaven or hell upon death? It would make no sense at all.
It's the resurrection of the BODY, numbnuts, NOT the soul.
And now YOU stand in heresy.
The souls are put into new BODIES. THAT'S the resurrection.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his
soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
It's the FLESH that dies, NOT the soul, and everything you are saying is
totally anathema to the teachings of the Bible.
(But it's becoming painfully obvious that ALL your teachings have no basis
in the Bible.)
In fact, ALL RELIGIONS teach the continuation of the soul, which is what
RELIGIONS are all about--arguing over what God and what state that soul will
exist in. The only one that will stand in the end is that of the God of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, i.e. Jehovah, i.e. Jesus Christ.
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sugien" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
19 Jan 2008 10:13:11 PM |
|
|
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zotkj.3492$5h6.1825@trndny09...
"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:35CdnWmamKnVgQ_anZ2dnUVZ_oqhnZ2d@sentex.net...
On January 19, 2008 07:19 am, H.E. Eickleberry, Jr.
<xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote:
"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:_rmdnfr1mo04jgzanZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@sentex.net...
[snip]
The problem is, that Jesus did not teach it. He never said that people
had immortal souls. Instead, he said "I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"
[John 11:25]
Yes, He did.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection
of damnation.
Actually it teaches the opposite.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in
the
tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good
deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a
resurrection of judgment." [John 5::28 NASB]
This teaches a resurrection. That is the opposite of the pagan
superstition
of an immortal soul, found in Plato's writing. If the soul was immortal
there would be no need for a resurrection, and there would be no need for
Christ to die for us.
That's dumb.
The resurrection is of the body, goofball, not the soul.
While Jesus body was in stasis, He was all over the creation in Spirit
taking care of business, as He told the Herodians.
His soul didn't end, and neither does anyone else's.
How can anyone have life beyond the grave, apart from Christ?
Everyone has life beyond the grave. Some will spend it in eternal bliss,
and some in eternal damnation, just like Jesus said.
Do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
It is only through Christ that people are raised from the grave.
Their souls being placed in resurrection bodies.
Talk about departing from the "mainstream:" Have you not read the creeds?
"...we believe in the resurrection of the BODY..."
Not "soul."
The body is what the soul is placed in.
This is
true whether they are believers or not, Jews or Gentiles.
YOU SNIPPED THE QUESTION SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO ANSWER IT, so I'll post
it up again: How could the Israelites know Christ when He didn't come
until the end of their age?
The knew "Jehovah" (which was Christ all along) and they either kept their
faith in Him or didn't, but they didn't KNOW of Christ and His Gospel. So
how could they KEEP the Gospel when there was no "Gospel" yet as we know
it now, BECAUSE Christ came?
No, Israel was defined by the promises of Abraham, as Paul said "the
promises of God are without repentance."
AGAIN, you demonstrate that you don't even know the basis of the Bible,
and you can snip it again, but it WON'T hide your ignorance.
Peter said to the Jewish high priest, and the rulers of the Jews, "Be it
known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the
dead,
even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone
which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the
corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." [Acts
4:10-12]
Which was true AFTER Christ came, and Peter was speaking AFTER Christ
came.
Again, you ignore what Jesus said: "For the law and the prophets were
UNTIL John, but NOW the Kingdom is preached."
Plato's speculation that man is born with an immortal soul is one of the
false teachings that has obscured the gospel, and it also is what partly
fulfils Joel's prophecy, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the
moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come."
[Joel
2:31]
Horseshit: The Bible teaches the immortal soul from the beginning, as
Genesis says "and Adam became an immortal soul."
I do not know what bible you are reading because mine does *not* say that
*anywhere*!!
So what if Plato said the same thing? Even a stopped watch is right twice
as day.
And your equation with Joel's prophecy with Plato is nonsense, too.
That is because in prophecy, the sun represents the gospel, as it was
called a "great light" in Genesis 1:16, and the gospel of Jesus was also
called a "great light". Matthew identifies the great light of Isaiah's
prophecy [Isaiah 9:2] with the gospel Jesus preached to the Jews [Matthew
4:16].
In prophecy, the "sun" represents fathers, the "moon" represents mothers,
and "stars" represent their children.
In Joel, the "sun" represents Israel, which will enter into its former
abominations in the new temple, the "moon" represents the antichristians
killing off the true believers, thinking they "do God service," and their
Satanic children will be cast down in the war in heaven.
NONE of this has a damn thing to do with Plato.
In the explanation of his parable about the tares, Jesus said when the
tares
are removed, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the
kingdom of their Father". This statement of Jesus also identifies the sun
with the gospel.
The "sun" being WHOLE ISRAEL after Jesus sorts out the frauds from the
believers in the resurrection.
The woman in heaven in Revelation 12:1, who represents the church, is
clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel.
WRONG!
The woman represents whole Israel bringing forth the remnant, as embodied
in Mary bringing forth Christ, and THAT'S who Satan goes after...
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman [Israel], and went to
make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God
AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Again, do you ever bother to actually READ the Bible?
I would ask you what bible you are reading seeing as how you say *your*
bible says that Adam became an inmortal soul.
The gospel becoming
obscured by pagan teachings such as the immortality of the soul was
foretold by Joel's prophecy about the sun becoming dark.
Horseshit: Joel's prophecy has nothing to DO with the "obscuring of Jesus'
teachings."
YOU are obscuring Jesus' teachings, and it is YOU the prophecy is about,
denying the triunion of Israel that "was," "is," and "will be" with your
abominable interpretations of prophecy.
That doctrine of
the immortality of the soul removes any need for a resurrection, and yet
the resurrection is very clearly taught in the New Testament. It makes
the
death of Jesus on our behalf seem meaningless. Why would the dead need to
be raised, if their souls were inherently immortal, and went either to
heaven or hell upon death? It would make no sense at all.
It's the resurrection of the BODY, numbnuts, NOT the soul.
And now YOU stand in heresy.
The souls are put into new BODIES. THAT'S the resurrection.
Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that
his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
It's the FLESH that dies, NOT the soul, and everything you are saying is
totally anathema to the teachings of the Bible.
(But it's becoming painfully obvious that ALL your teachings have no basis
in the Bible.)
In fact, ALL RELIGIONS teach the continuation of the soul, which is what
RELIGIONS are all about--arguing over what God and what state that soul
will exist in. The only one that will stand in the end is that of the God
of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, i.e. Jehovah, i.e. Jesus Christ.
I believe that humans exist in 3 parts the body which is the flesh, the soul
which is experience and personality and spirit which is the spirit of God
which is given when you are converted or born again. The body and soul can
and in sinners does live without Gods spirit within them. The body and Soul
of sinners is *destroyed* in hell fire; but if the person is a believer they
are given a new body which is perfect and immortal in which their soul and
spirit is placed. To put it in computer terms. The body would be the
computer, the soul would be the programming and the spirit would be the
electricity.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
20 Jan 2008 04:02:44 AM |
|
|
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4792ca58$0$31796$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[snip]
I believe that humans exist in 3 parts the body which is the flesh, the
soul which is experience and personality and spirit which is the spirit of
God which is given when you are converted or born again.
Well, you're right that there are three parts, but incorrect in your
assessment.
The body is the physical aspect of man.
The soul is the intellectual aspect of man.
The spirit is the manner in which man influences and is influenced by his or
her environment.
You are claiming that there is only the Holy Spirit when there are opponent
spirits as well, i.e. spirits that lead to death as well as life, to whit...
Le 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a
wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones:
their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit
from the LORD troubled him.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through
dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
....just to cite a few.
The body and soul can and in sinners does live without Gods spirit
within them.
Everyone lives within a realm of spirit, and everyone has a spirit within
them. The question is it the spirit of cooperation with God, or in
cooperation with the adversary (whether they are aware of it or not)?
The body and Soul of sinners is *destroyed* in hell fire;
NOT singularly destroyed, but eternally continually destroyed, in that place
where "the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses that
say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the soul
would be the programming and the spirit would be the electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used for
good, or for evil.
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit. The
question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the adversary's?
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any animal,
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the Adversary
rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical) death, that is, he
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three curses--one on
the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who were already here--were
all about).
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sugien" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
20 Jan 2008 07:09:16 PM |
|
|
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8%Ekj.2224$uB6.1304@trndny05...
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4792ca58$0$31796$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[snip]
I believe that humans exist in 3 parts the body which is the flesh, the
soul which is experience and personality and spirit which is the spirit
of God which is given when you are converted or born again.
Well, you're right that there are three parts, but incorrect in your
assessment.
The body is the physical aspect of man.
I said the same
The soul is the intellectual aspect of man.
I said the same
The spirit is the manner in which man influences and is influenced by his
or her environment.
The spirit is that part which is either given of God at baptisim, or in the
sinner which can be the spirit of disobediance
You are claiming that there is only the Holy Spirit when there are
opponent spirits as well, i.e. spirits that lead to death as well as life,
to whit...
Yes in the believer at baptism is give the holy spirit to live within him;
but if they back slide or sin Gods spirit will flee; because Gods spirit can
have nothing to do with sin, which is why when a Christian sins he has that
awful feeling; because Gods spirit has left. I agree that in the unsaved
or un-repentant that other spirits can take up residence in the same place
that Gods spirit was living before the Christian sinned.
Le 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a
wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones:
their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil
spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through
dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
...just to cite a few.
I think we may be in agreement and that I only word it different
The body and soul can and in sinners does live without Gods spirit
within them.
Everyone lives within a realm of spirit, and everyone has a spirit within
them. The question is it the spirit of cooperation with God, or in
cooperation with the adversary (whether they are aware of it or not)?
I said as much
The body and Soul of sinners is *destroyed* in hell fire;
NOT singularly destroyed, but eternally continually destroyed, in that
place where "the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."
I disagree because the soul that sins dies, it is eternally destroyed but
not continually destroyed; because that is the old fashioned torments of
hell fire for eternity. The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra
are NOT still burning. Think of it this way if you were in eternity and you
knew that you were the *only* member of your family to make it there how
would you go through eternity knowing that your loved ones were in such
torment? Or are you one that thinks that the wiping away of all tear
equates to the believers in eternity with God are sort of like Alzheimer's
patients and that parts of their memory or what makes them , them, has been
erased?
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses that
say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
Of course the seed must die before the new body is given for the soul and
spirit to inhabit
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the soul
would be the programming and the spirit would be the electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used for
good, or for evil.
of course, some run on Gods spirit, and some on the devils, just like some
computers run in europe use 50Hz electricity and the USA uses 60Hrz. I am
not saying that Europe and 50Hz are devils, lol;)
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit. The
question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the adversary's?
yep, all humans have a soul (intelect, knoledge and personality) a body (the
flesh) and a spirit (either Gods or the spirit of the adversary)
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any animal,
Of course not; because humans were the only ones given a soul, the animals
were only given a body and brain
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the
Adversary rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical) death,
that is, he
that is why after Adam sinned and God was walking in the garden God said
"Adam where art thou"; because Gods spirit was no longer inside Adam;
because Adam had sinned and Gods spirit will *not* abide with sin and sort
of in effect Adam could not be seen.
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three curses--one
on the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who were already
here--were all about).
what people already here? Unless you are refering or infering that God
created using evolution and that the nethanderhalls or cave men were here
before God created Adam and that it was one of these cave woman that Can
took as a wife after he slew Abel.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
21 Jan 2008 06:09:22 AM |
|
|
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4793f0bc$0$4973$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8%Ekj.2224$uB6.1304@trndny05...
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4792ca58$0$31796$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[snip]
I believe that humans exist in 3 parts the body which is the flesh, the
soul which is experience and personality and spirit which is the spirit
of God which is given when you are converted or born again.
Well, you're right that there are three parts, but incorrect in your
assessment.
The body is the physical aspect of man.
I said the same
The soul is the intellectual aspect of man.
I said the same
The spirit is the manner in which man influences and is influenced by his
or her environment.
The spirit is that part which is either given of God at baptisim, or in
the sinner which can be the spirit of disobediance
Right, which is the sign of influences, or influences as a sign, the world
around them.
This, spirit is the actual interaction of motivations in the world, whether
for good, or for evil.
But regardless, EVERYONE is "spiritual," whether they recognize it or not.
You are claiming that there is only the Holy Spirit when there are
opponent spirits as well, i.e. spirits that lead to death as well as
life, to whit...
Yes in the believer at baptism is give the holy spirit to live within him;
but if they back slide or sin Gods spirit will flee; because Gods spirit
can have nothing to do with sin, which is why when a Christian sins he has
that awful feeling; because Gods spirit has left.
No, "backsliding" or "sinning" as a condition of salvation is legalism.
FAITH, DESPITE our sins, is the condition of salvation.
Thus, sin is the football, NOT the game.
The game is FAITH, even despite ourselves.
I agree that in the unsaved or un-repentant that other spirits can take
up residence in the same place that Gods spirit was living before the
Christian sinned.
By default, they belong to Satan, unless they open the door of salvation
through faith in Jesus Christ.
Le 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a
wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones:
their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil
spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through
dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
...just to cite a few.
I think we may be in agreement and that I only word it different
The body and soul can and in sinners does live without Gods spirit
within them.
Everyone lives within a realm of spirit, and everyone has a spirit within
them. The question is it the spirit of cooperation with God, or in
cooperation with the adversary (whether they are aware of it or not)?
I said as much
The body and Soul of sinners is *destroyed* in hell fire;
NOT singularly destroyed, but eternally continually destroyed, in that
place where "the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."
I disagree
You CAN'T "disagree."
Jesus, Paul, and John ALL spoke of the ETERNAL damnation, and the
EVERLASTING destruction.
because the soul that sins dies, it is eternally destroyed but not
continually destroyed; because that is the old fashioned torments of hell
fire for eternity.
"Old fashioned?"
There's no "old fashioned" to it: The Word is the Word, and the Word says
what it says, and it says "eternal damnation" and "everlasting destruction,"
DESPITE the attempt of modern liberal theologians to rewrite the Bible to
say what they want it to say.
The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra are NOT still burning.
You're mistaking the temporal for the eternal.
Think of it this way if you were in eternity and you knew that you were
the *only* member of your family to make it there how would you go through
eternity knowing that your loved ones were in such torment?
You won't: All consciousness of the wicked is blotted out, as YOU quoted
from Ecclesiastes, and as Jesus demonstrated in the story of Lazarus.
Or are you one that thinks that the wiping away of all tear equates to
the believers in eternity with God are sort of like Alzheimer's patients
and that parts of their memory or what makes them , them, has been erased?
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he
shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former
shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the
midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have
spoken it.
You HAVE to start reading what the WORD says, and not what you want it to
say!
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses
that say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
Of course the seed must die before the new body is given for the soul and
spirit to inhabit
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the soul
would be the programming and the spirit would be the electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used for
good, or for evil.
of course, some run on Gods spirit, and some on the devils, just like some
computers run in europe use 50Hz electricity and the USA uses 60Hrz. I am
not saying that Europe and 50Hz are devils, lol;)
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit. The
question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the adversary's?
yep, all humans have a soul (intellect, knoledge and personality) a body
(the flesh) and a spirit (either Gods or the spirit of the adversary)
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any animal,
Of course not; because humans were the only ones given a soul, the animals
were only given a body and brain
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the
Adversary rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical) death,
that is, he
that is why after Adam sinned and God was walking in the garden God said
"Adam where art thou"; because Gods spirit was no longer inside Adam;
because Adam had sinned and Gods spirit will *not* abide with sin and sort
of in effect Adam could not be seen.
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three curses--one
on the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who were already
here--were all about).
what people already here? Unless you are refering or infering that God
created using evolution and that the nethanderhalls or cave men were here
before God created Adam and that it was one of these cave woman that Can
took as a wife after he slew Abel.
Go back and read the first two accounts.
"Man," generic and plural, came AFTER every other living thing, as the
archeological and historical records indicate.
"Adam" came BEFORE every other living thing.
A is not B, and B is not A, but when A and B got together, THAT'S when the
trouble started, as "seed" opposed "seed."
Who was the other seed?
The natural man, and the natural man came by natural means.
So, yes, Cain DID take a wife of the Gentiles, but not as far back as the
cavemen. Try Sumer, i.e. the early civilization from which the
Assyro-Babylon religion and culture sprang, and on which the into to
Genesis, and the prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah are based.
Ike
P.S. the same four symbols God gave to Peter to tell him to preach the
Gospel to the Gentiles are the same four symbols used in the second Genesis
account for the things God created and Adam named--Cattle, beast of the
field, fowls of the air, and, eventually, "creeping things."
hint, hint.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sugien" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
22 Jan 2008 02:07:33 AM |
|
|
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:SX%kj.4386$YH6.658@trndny03...
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4793f0bc$0$4973$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8%Ekj.2224$uB6.1304@trndny05...
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4792ca58$0$31796$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
[snip]
I believe that humans exist in 3 parts the body which is the flesh, the
soul which is experience and personality and spirit which is the spirit
of God which is given when you are converted or born again.
Well, you're right that there are three parts, but incorrect in your
assessment.
The body is the physical aspect of man.
I said the same
The soul is the intellectual aspect of man.
I said the same
The spirit is the manner in which man influences and is influenced by
his or her environment.
The spirit is that part which is either given of God at baptisim, or in
the sinner which can be the spirit of disobediance
Right, which is the sign of influences, or influences as a sign, the world
around them.
This, spirit is the actual interaction of motivations in the world,
whether for good, or for evil.
But regardless, EVERYONE is "spiritual," whether they recognize it or not.
You are claiming that there is only the Holy Spirit when there are
opponent spirits as well, i.e. spirits that lead to death as well as
life, to whit...
Yes in the believer at baptism is give the holy spirit to live within
him; but if they back slide or sin Gods spirit will flee; because Gods
spirit can have nothing to do with sin, which is why when a Christian
sins he has that awful feeling; because Gods spirit has left.
No, "backsliding" or "sinning" as a condition of salvation is legalism.
FAITH, DESPITE our sins, is the condition of salvation.
Thus, sin is the football, NOT the game.
The game is FAITH, even despite ourselves.
I agree that in the unsaved or un-repentant that other spirits can
take up residence in the same place that Gods spirit was living before
the Christian sinned.
By default, they belong to Satan, unless they open the door of salvation
through faith in Jesus Christ.
Le 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a
wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones:
their blood shall be upon them.
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil
spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh
through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
...just to cite a few.
I think we may be in agreement and that I only word it different
The body and soul can and in sinners does live without Gods spirit
within them.
Everyone lives within a realm of spirit, and everyone has a spirit
within them. The question is it the spirit of cooperation with God, or
in cooperation with the adversary (whether they are aware of it or not)?
I said as much
The body and Soul of sinners is *destroyed* in hell fire;
NOT singularly destroyed, but eternally continually destroyed, in that
place where "the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched."
I disagree
You CAN'T "disagree."
Yest I can because *YOU* do NOT understand the meaning of destroyed or
destruction, it means gone for ever
Jesus, Paul, and John ALL spoke of the ETERNAL damnation, and the
EVERLASTING destruction.
Destruction is the soul dieing or being destroyed and it could take an
instant or how ever long God chooses but the soul dies and becomes nothing
because the soul that sins dies, it is eternally destroyed but not
continually destroyed; because that is the old fashioned torments of hell
fire for eternity.
"Old fashioned?"
There's no "old fashioned" to it: The Word is the Word, and the Word says
what it says, and it says "eternal damnation" and "everlasting
destruction," DESPITE the attempt of modern liberal theologians to rewrite
the Bible to say what they want it to say.
Everylasting destruction is NOT everlasting punishING but everlasting
punishMENT
The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra are NOT still
burning.
You're mistaking the temporal for the eternal.
Think of it this way if you were in eternity and you knew that you were
the *only* member of your family to make it there how would you go
through eternity knowing that your loved ones were in such torment?
You won't: All consciousness of the wicked is blotted out, as YOU quoted
from Ecclesiastes, and as Jesus demonstrated in the story of Lazarus.
Or are you one that thinks that the wiping away of all tear equates to
the believers in eternity with God are sort of like Alzheimer's patients
and that parts of their memory or what makes them , them, has been
erased?
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him;
he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the
former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the
midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have
spoken it.
You HAVE to start reading what the WORD says, and not what you want it to
say!
I say the same back to you because destruction is destruction not eternaly
being destroyed in an eternal throw of death; but rather a final death of
the soul and that is why all tears are wiped away; because the person knows
that they are dead and not being tormented for ever.
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses
that say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
Of course the seed must die before the new body is given for the soul and
spirit to inhabit
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the
soul would be the programming and the spirit would be the electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used for
good, or for evil.
of course, some run on Gods spirit, and some on the devils, just like
some computers run in europe use 50Hz electricity and the USA uses 60Hrz.
I am not saying that Europe and 50Hz are devils, lol;)
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit. The
question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the adversary's?
yep, all humans have a soul (intellect, knoledge and personality) a body
(the flesh) and a spirit (either Gods or the spirit of the adversary)
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any
animal,
Of course not; because humans were the only ones given a soul, the
animals were only given a body and brain
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the
Adversary rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical)
death, that is, he
that is why after Adam sinned and God was walking in the garden God said
"Adam where art thou"; because Gods spirit was no longer inside Adam;
because Adam had sinned and Gods spirit will *not* abide with sin and
sort of in effect Adam could not be seen.
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three
curses--one on the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who were
already here--were all about).
what people already here? Unless you are refering or infering that God
created using evolution and that the nethanderhalls or cave men were here
before God created Adam and that it was one of these cave woman that Can
took as a wife after he slew Abel.
Go back and read the first two accounts.
"Man," generic and plural, came AFTER every other living thing, as the
archeological and historical records indicate.
"Adam" came BEFORE every other living thing.
you can not read *your* meaning into it
A is not B, and B is not A, but when A and B got together, THAT'S when the
trouble started, as "seed" opposed "seed."
Who was the other seed?
The natural man, and the natural man came by natural means.
So, yes, Cain DID take a wife of the Gentiles, but not as far back as the
cavemen. Try Sumer, i.e. the early civilization from which the
Assyro-Babylon religion and culture sprang, and on which the into to
Genesis, and the prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah are based.
says who, not the bible, I could quote gnostic texts to show quite a lot but
they are NOT the bible
Ike
P.S. the same four symbols God gave to Peter to tell him to preach the
Gospel to the Gentiles are the same four symbols used in the second
Genesis account for the things God created and Adam named--Cattle, beast
of the field, fowls of the air, and, eventually, "creeping things."
hint, hint.
destruction is death of the soul bigger hint, hint
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
22 Jan 2008 03:21:53 AM |
|
|
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4795a438$0$6505$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:SX%kj.4386$YH6.658@trndny03...
[snip]
You CAN'T "disagree."
Yest I can because *YOU* do NOT understand the meaning of destroyed or
destruction, it means gone for ever
You just did it AGAIN!
You CAN'T disagree, because if God SAID IT, and you DISAGREE according to
your OWN LOGIC (which is precisely what you are doing) THAT'S BLASPHEMY.
Jesus said ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Paul said EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION.
There IS NO "disagreeing."
Jesus, Paul, and John ALL spoke of the ETERNAL damnation, and the
EVERLASTING destruction.
Destruction is the soul dieing or being destroyed and it could take an
instant or how ever long God chooses but the soul dies and becomes nothing
ETERNAL damnation and EVERLASTING destruction is ETERNAL damnation and
EVERLASTING destruction.
There AIN'T NO GREY AREA HERE, though you are trying like hell to create
one.
IT IS WHAT IT IS.
If you say OTHERWISE, that's blasphemy.
because the soul that sins dies, it is eternally destroyed but not
continually destroyed; because that is the old fashioned torments of
hell fire for eternity.
"Old fashioned?"
There's no "old fashioned" to it: The Word is the Word, and the Word says
what it says, and it says "eternal damnation" and "everlasting
destruction," DESPITE the attempt of modern liberal theologians to
rewrite the Bible to say what they want it to say.
Everylasting destruction is NOT everlasting punishING but everlasting
punishMENT
You're blaspheming again.
The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra are NOT still
burning.
You're mistaking the temporal for the eternal.
Think of it this way if you were in eternity and you knew that you
were the *only* member of your family to make it there how would you go
through eternity knowing that your loved ones were in such torment?
You won't: All consciousness of the wicked is blotted out, as YOU quoted
from Ecclesiastes, and as Jesus demonstrated in the story of Lazarus.
Or are you one that thinks that the wiping away of all tear equates to
the believers in eternity with God are sort of like Alzheimer's patients
and that parts of their memory or what makes them , them, has been
erased?
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him;
he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the
former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the
midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have
spoken it.
You HAVE to start reading what the WORD says, and not what you want it to
say!
I say the same back to you because destruction is destruction not eternaly
being destroyed in an eternal throw of death; but rather a final death of
the soul and that is why all tears are wiped away; because the person
knows that they are dead and not being tormented for ever.
Go BACK and look at the citations. "They shall no more be remembered..."
You're STILL supplanting what the Word says with "you say," and that's
blaspheming.
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses
that say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
Of course the seed must die before the new body is given for the soul
and spirit to inhabit
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the
soul would be the programming and the spirit would be the electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used for
good, or for evil.
of course, some run on Gods spirit, and some on the devils, just like
some computers run in europe use 50Hz electricity and the USA uses
60Hrz. I am not saying that Europe and 50Hz are devils, lol;)
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit. The
question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the adversary's?
yep, all humans have a soul (intellect, knoledge and personality) a body
(the flesh) and a spirit (either Gods or the spirit of the adversary)
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any
animal,
Of course not; because humans were the only ones given a soul, the
animals were only given a body and brain
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the
Adversary rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical)
death, that is, he
that is why after Adam sinned and God was walking in the garden God said
"Adam where art thou"; because Gods spirit was no longer inside Adam;
because Adam had sinned and Gods spirit will *not* abide with sin and
sort of in effect Adam could not be seen.
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three
curses--one on the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who
were already here--were all about).
what people already here? Unless you are refering or infering that God
created using evolution and that the nethanderhalls or cave men were
here before God created Adam and that it was one of these cave woman
that Can took as a wife after he slew Abel.
Go back and read the first two accounts.
"Man," generic and plural, came AFTER every other living thing, as the
archeological and historical records indicate.
"Adam" came BEFORE every other living thing.
you can not read *your* meaning into it
I don't have to.
"Man" came AFTER every living thing. Basic fact.
"Adam" came BEFORE every living thing. Basic fact.
A cannot be B, and B cannot be A.
Besides, Ezekiel explained what it was all about--the sons of men versus the
sons of God, i.e. the Assyro-Babylonians against the Hebrews.
A is not B, and B is not A, but when A and B got together, THAT'S when
the trouble started, as "seed" opposed "seed."
Who was the other seed?
The natural man, and the natural man came by natural means.
So, yes, Cain DID take a wife of the Gentiles, but not as far back as the
cavemen. Try Sumer, i.e. the early civilization from which the
Assyro-Babylon religion and culture sprang, and on which the into to
Genesis, and the prophecies of Ezekiel and Isaiah are based.
says who, not the bible, I could quote gnostic texts to show quite a lot
but they are NOT the bible
Ah, YES, in the Bible, staring with "the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon..."
and then going on to state that the whole thing is about the Garden of Eden
which the Lord God made.
The Genesis accounts are NOT what you think they are.
Ike
P.S. the same four symbols God gave to Peter to tell him to preach the
Gospel to the Gentiles are the same four symbols used in the second
Genesis account for the things God created and Adam named--Cattle, beast
of the field, fowls of the air, and, eventually, "creeping things."
hint, hint.
destruction is death of the soul bigger hint, hint
You haven't a clue as to what I'm referring do you?
The symbols used in the second Genesis account are the same symbols God used
to tell Peter to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 10.
Wake up and smell the moca grande.
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sugien" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Beliefs - Plato Comes to Church |
22 Jan 2008 01:38:07 PM |
|
|
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:RAilj.4108$Ev6.1980@trndny07...
"Sugien" <paulbryantsr@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4795a438$0$6505$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:SX%kj.4386$YH6.658@trndny03...
[snip]
You CAN'T "disagree."
Yest I can because *YOU* do NOT understand the meaning of destroyed or
destruction, it means gone for ever
You just did it AGAIN!
This is not serving any reason; because I am not going to change what I have
been lead by the spirit to believe. I say you are in error and you say I am
in error, so I at least will just agree to disagree. I wont resort to
saying you're blaspheming; because I truly believe you are just deluded into
believing what the evil one wants you to believe; because one of his tricks
is to get preacher and churches and Christians to teach that sinners will be
tormented for ever; because he knows that portrays God as the exact opposite
of the Loving Kind father he is
You CAN'T disagree, because if God SAID IT, and you DISAGREE according to
your OWN LOGIC (which is precisely what you are doing) THAT'S BLASPHEMY.
Which I *could *say right back at you; because of your not seeing what is
plainly written; but I will not.
Jesus said ETERNAL DAMNATION.
It is damnation; because the soul is destroyed
Paul said EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION.
There IS NO "disagreeing."
Which I *could *say right back at you; because of your not seeing what is
plainly written; but I will not. Everlasting destruction is NOT destruction
everlasting, you're seeing it in a turned around way!
Jesus, Paul, and John ALL spoke of the ETERNAL damnation, and the
EVERLASTING destruction.
Destruction is the soul dieing or being destroyed and it could take an
instant or how ever long God chooses but the soul dies and becomes
nothing
ETERNAL damnation and EVERLASTING destruction is ETERNAL damnation and
EVERLASTING destruction.
Which I *could *say right back at you; because of your not seeing what is
plainly written; but I will not. Everlasting destruction is NOT destruction
everlasting, you're seeing it in a turned around way!
There AIN'T NO GREY AREA HERE, though you are trying like hell to create
one.
I am only trying like a believer to attempt to show another believer that
they are in error concerning the words of God.
I agree that there is NO grey area *anywhere* in the bible; but *YOU* can
*NOT* reverse words to get the meaning that *you* want to see; because I
suspect that you have been *taught* that way and have not actually thought
it out for yourself.
IT IS WHAT IT IS.
If you say OTHERWISE, that's blasphemy.
Which I *could *say right back at you; because of your not seeing what is
plainly written; but I will not. Everlasting destruction is NOT destruction
everlasting, you're seeing it in a turned around way!
because the soul that sins dies, it is eternally destroyed but not
continually destroyed; because that is the old fashioned torments of
hell fire for eternity.
"Old fashioned?"
There's no "old fashioned" to it: The Word is the Word, and the Word
says what it says, and it says "eternal damnation" and "everlasting
destruction," DESPITE the attempt of modern liberal theologians to
rewrite the Bible to say what they want it to say.
Everylasting destruction is NOT everlasting punishING but everlasting
punishMENT
You're blaspheming again.
Which I *could *say right back at you; because of your not seeing what is
plainly written; but I will not. Everlasting destruction is NOT destruction
everlasting, you're seeing it in a turned around way!
The eternal fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorra are NOT still
burning.
You're mistaking the temporal for the eternal.
Think of it this way if you were in eternity and you knew that you
were the *only* member of your family to make it there how would you go
through eternity knowing that your loved ones were in such torment?
You won't: All consciousness of the wicked is blotted out, as YOU quoted
from Ecclesiastes, and as Jesus demonstrated in the story of Lazarus.
Or are you one that thinks that the wiping away of all tear equates
to the believers in eternity with God are sort of like Alzheimer's
patients and that parts of their memory or what makes them , them, has
been erased?
Job 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him;
he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a
tree.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the
former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the
midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have
spoken it.
You HAVE to start reading what the WORD says, and not what you want it
to say!
I say the same back to you because destruction is destruction not
eternaly being destroyed in an eternal throw of death; but rather a final
death of the soul and that is why all tears are wiped away; because the
person knows that they are dead and not being tormented for ever.
Go BACK and look at the citations. "They shall no more be remembered..."
I would say that not long after entering into eternity that it will of such
great JOY and such that those whom had their souls destroyed will no longer
occupy our thoughts. I certainly do not believe that we will enter into the
rest as a sort of Alzheimer's patient with parts of our minds erased. If in
the other world we do not remember who we were in life then in essence it
would NOT be we that are there but a *blank* soul that doesn't remember what
was learned in this life.
You're STILL supplanting what the Word says with "you say," and that's
blaspheming.
but if the person is a believer they are given a new body which is
perfect and immortal in which their soul and spirit is placed.
I hope you mean at the resurrection, because there is a ton of verses
that say that the flesh continues as is, "waiting for the redemption."
Of course the seed must die before the new body is given for the soul
and spirit to inhabit
To put it in computer terms. The body would be the computer, the
soul would be the programming and the spirit would be the
electricity.
But there is electricity regardless of whether the computer is used
for good, or for evil.
of course, some run on Gods spirit, and some on the devils, just like
some computers run in europe use 50Hz electricity and the USA uses
60Hrz. I am not saying that Europe and 50Hz are devils, lol;)
Likewise, everyone contributes to spirit, and receives from spirit.
The question is whose spirit and to what end? God's or the
adversary's?
yep, all humans have a soul (intellect, knoledge and personality) a
body (the flesh) and a spirit (either Gods or the spirit of the
adversary)
Regardless, when Adam became a "living soul," he was not like any
animal,
Of course not; because humans were the only ones given a soul, the
animals were only given a body and brain
but was a creation of God interacting with Him spiritually, and also,
unfortunately, the Adversary, and he choose to cooperate with the
Adversary rather than God, leading to his spiritual (not physical)
death, that is, he
that is why after Adam sinned and God was walking in the garden God
said "Adam where art thou"; because Gods spirit was no longer inside
Adam; because Adam had sinned and Gods spirit will *not* abide with sin
and sort of in effect Adam could not be seen.
was from then on dominated by, and contributed to, the spirit of the
adversary, and not the spirit of God (which is what the three
curses--one on the man, one on the woman, and one on the people who
were already here--were all about).
what people already here? Unless you are refering or infering that God
created using evolution and that the nethanderhalls or cave men were
here before God created Adam and that it was one of these cave woman
that Can took as a wife after he slew Abel.
Go back and read the first two accounts.
"Man," generic and plural, came AFTER every other living thing, as the
archeological and historical records indicate.
"Adam" came BEFORE every other living thing.
you can not read *your* meaning into it
I don't have to.
Ah but you are!
"Man" came AFTER every living thing. Basic fact.
"Adam" came BEFORE every living thing. Basic fact.
A cannot be B, and B cannot be A.
Besides, Ezekiel explained what it was all about--the sons of men versus
the sons of God, i.e. the Assyro-Babylonians against the Hebrews.
A is not B, and B is not A, but when A and B got together, THA | | | | | | | | | | | | |
