Religions > Bible > Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
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"e" |
| Date: |
11 Feb 2007 10:33:25 PM |
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Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant
to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical
testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his
books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an
agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like,"
there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1}
This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset
in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral
proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The
answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we
will be looking at some of it in this article.
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference
to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians
derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin),
or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously
alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said
to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius
Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of
Jesus.
But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's
death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently
arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that
Tacitus is here "bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early
church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."{6}
While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the
otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the
worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7} How else might
one explain that?
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound
themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit
any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when
they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to
separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary
and innocent kind.{10}
This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs
and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met
on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to
Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore,
one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to
a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods
who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."{11} If
this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were
worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees
perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and
man.
Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed
about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His
teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a
solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in
the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian
custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of
communion and the "love feast."{12} This interpretation helps explain the
Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent
kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-
Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."{13} The Christians of that day
humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must
sometimes do the same today.
Evidence from Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be
found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two
occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less
revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the
Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the
so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's
description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And
Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that
Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly
astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion
declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him
a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When
Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love
him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . .
restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not
disappeared.{17}
Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage
originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor,
possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they
think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe
that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19}
For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the
qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It
implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus
would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly
asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as
"the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared
to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is
quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!
But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still
left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus.
We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And
although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their
discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these
statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a
rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical
record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical
Jesus" are one and the same!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud
There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a
collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately
A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier
references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones.
In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred
between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this
period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the
execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned
because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}
Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone
named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or
"Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the
passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New
Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can
function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares
that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals
who were crucified with Jesus.{22} So the Talmud declares that Jesus was
crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus
was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were
planning to do.{23} If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24}
The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced
sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a
rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described
somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances
for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?
Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels.
For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that
Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."{25} But
notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim
that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too
well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery!
Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account
of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his
teaching.{26} Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament
record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this
passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from
the New Testament.
Evidence from Lucian
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his
works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage
who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It]
was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers,
from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and
worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}
Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some
significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians
worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's
followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His
contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."
Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus.
But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he
taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's
harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying
the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings.
It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though
Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined
with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than
human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they
apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!
Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of
ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that
Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply
He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the
Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus,
the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and
Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it
happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the
Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth,
Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or
Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians
worshipped Jesus as God!
I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources
helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course,
there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well.
But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well
established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes
1. F. F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament
(Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company,
1974), 13.
2. Ibid.
3. Ibid.
4. Edwin Yamauchi, quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ (Grand
Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1998), 82.
5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.
6. N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale,
1969), 19, cited in Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin,
Missouri: College Press Publishing Company, 1996), 189-190.
7. Edwin Yamauchi, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.
8. Pliny, Epistles x. 96, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 25; Habermas, The
Historical Jesus, 198.
9. Ibid., 27.
10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson
(Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas,
The Historical Jesus, 199.
11. M. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors," in Gospel
Perspectives V, 354-55, cited in E. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New
Testament: What is the Evidence?", in Jesus Under Fire, ed. by Michael J.
Wilkins and J.P. Moreland (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing
House, 1995), p. 227, note 66.
12. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.
13. Bruce, Christian Origins, 28.
14. Josephus, Antiquities xx. 200, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 36.
15. Ibid.
16. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.
17. Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the
New Testament", 212.
18. Ibid.
19. Although time would not permit me to mention it on the radio, another
version of Josephus' "Testimonium Flavianum" survives in a tenth-century
Arabic version (Bruce, Christian Origins, 41). In 1971, Professor Schlomo
Pines published a study on this passage. The passage is interesting because it
lacks most of the questionable elements that many scholars believe to be
Christian interpolations. Indeed, "as Schlomo Pines and David
Flusser...stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against
Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text,
especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by
the church" (Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194). The passage reads as
follows: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His
conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people
from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate
condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his
disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had
appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive;
accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets
have recounted wonders." (Quoted in James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within
Judaism, (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988), 95, cited in Habermas, The
Historical Jesus, 194).
20. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03.
21. The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935),
vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, 281, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.
22. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.
23. See John 8:58-59 and 10:31-33.
24. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 204. See also John 18:31-32.
25. Matt. 12:24. I gleaned this observation from Bruce, Christian Origins,
56.
26. Luke 23:2, 5.
27. Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of
Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford:
Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.
©2001 Probe Ministries.
--
There's no hurry?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrmDWn6awMA
"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0001.html
Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.
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http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0002.html
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http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0003.html
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http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0004.html
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| User: "oldwetdog" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
13 Feb 2007 09:05:10 AM |
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e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
When I open a post, and see one long body of text, I don't read it.
Could you please break this into some kind of paragraphs, perhaps by
subject or.... whatever?
thanks
owd
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| User: "Bible Believer" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
13 Feb 2007 10:58:58 AM |
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On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:05:10 -0800, oldwetdog
<g.aedhealic@yahoo.com> claimed:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
When I open a post, and see one long body of text, I don't read it.
Yes you do. You then delete it when you can't refute it.
But let's assume you're honest about that. All that proves,
is that you claim that people are liars and that they make
false accusations and that they are all wrong, based on
you not reading their message.
Gee, how wonderfully Christian of you!
--
Hope for a physical kingdom is to deny Christ's words.
He dispelled that idea in Luke 17:20-21 and He never
said, "But later it will be", nor can Jesus be quoted
anywhere in Scripture saying that it will be physical.
Reading other passages that you think say it will be,
is not to refute this statement, but rather, it is to
pit the Bible against itself and an Apostle against
his Lord, since it would be a contradiction!
I would not want to be in that position!
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
12 Feb 2007 08:54:35 PM |
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e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
accurate and trustworthy historical document,
===>You lie again!
No such evidence exists!
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note that there is no mention of a man named "Jesus"!
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference
to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians
derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin),
or Christ.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Since then there are HUNDREDS more sects worshiping the imaginary deity
of Saul/Paul!
Evidence from Josephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be
found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two
occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less
revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the
Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the
so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's
description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And
Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that
Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly
astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion
declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him
a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ.
===>Josephus would NEVER have said that! Only foolish Christians,
desperate for some "evidence" would accept this.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
13 Feb 2007 02:47:12 AM |
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On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
accurate and trustworthy historical document,
===>You lie again! No such evidence exists!
Abuse... <sigh>
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
Note that there is no mention of a man named "Jesus"!
Note the refusal to see what everyone else can see.
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference
to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians
derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin),
or Christ.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Quite why a passage about the Christians relating to Christ should be
ignored on these feeble grounds we are not told.
Since then there are HUNDREDS more sects worshiping the imaginary deity
of Saul/Paul!
Again any old excuse, probable or not.
Evidence fromJosephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Note the assertion as fact of a hypothesis. Data must be got rid off,
whatever it takes, it seems.
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be
found in the writings ofJosephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two
occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less
revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the
Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, saysJosephus, was "the brother of Jesus the
so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's
description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And
Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that
Josephusactually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly
astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion
declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him
a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ.
===>Josephuswould NEVER have said that! Only foolish Christians,
desperate for some "evidence" would accept this.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
And this is why no intelligent person is an atheist.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "e" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
13 Feb 2007 07:28:18 AM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:1171356432.770971.26540@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
accurate and trustworthy historical document,
===>You lie again! No such evidence exists!
Abuse... <sigh>
NOPE! (-:
Thallus
- References to Thallus
On the Circumstances Connected with Our Saviour's Passion and His Life-
Giving Resurrection.
1. As to His works severally, and His cures effected upon body and soul,
and the mysteries of His doctrine, and the resurrection from the dead, these
have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before
us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks
were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts
were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History,
calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the
Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and
the passion of our Saviour fails on the day before the passover; but an
eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And
it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of
the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then
should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost
diametrically opposite the sun? Let that opinion pass however; let it carry the
majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the
sun, like others a portent only to the eye.?48 Phlegon records that, in the
time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from
the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak. But what
has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the
resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the
universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period. But it
was a darkness induced by God, because the Lord happened then to suffer.
And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is
completed at this time.
[1]
==
Samaritan-born historian, Thallus (ca. 52), "when discussing the darkness
which fell upon the land during the crucifixion of Christ," spoke of it as an
eclipse (Bruce, 113, emphasis added). The second-century Greek writer,
Lucian, speaks of Christ as "the man who was crucified in Palestine because
he introduced a new cult into the world." He calls him the "crucified sophist"
(Geisler, 323). The "letter of Mara Bar-Serapion" (ca. a.d. 73), housed in
the British Museum, speaks of Christ's death, asking: "What advantage did
the Jews gain from executing their wise King?" (Bruce, 114). Finally, there
was the Roman writer, Phlegon, who spoke of Christ's death and
resurrection in his Chronicles, saying, "Jesus, while alive, was of no
assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks
of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails"
(Phlegon, Chronicles, cited by Origen, 4:455). Phlegon even mentioned "the
eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have
been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place" (ibid.,
445).
The earliest Christian writers after the time of Christ affirmed his death on the
cross by crucifixion. Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, repeatedly
affirmed the death of Christ, speaking, for example, of "our Lord Jesus
Christ, who for our sins suffered even unto death" (Polycarp, 33). Ignatius
(30-107), a friend of Polycarp, wrote, "And he really suffered and died, and
rose again." Otherwise, he adds, all his apostles who suffered for this belief,
died in vain. "But, (in truth) none of these sufferings were in vain; for the
Lord was really crucified by the ungodly" (Ignatius, 107).
[2]
==
Africanus identifies the darkness which Thallus explained as a solar eclipse
with the darkness at the crucifixion described in Luke 23:44-45.
Government Officials. Other non-Christian sources were ancient government
officials, whose occupations put them in a unique position to have official
information unavailable to the public.
Pliny the Younger. Pliny the Younger was a Roman author and
administrator. In a letter to the Emperor Trajan in about 112, Pliny describes
the early Christian worship practices:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound
themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to
commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a
trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their
custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-but food of an
ordinary and innocent kind. [Letters 10:96]
This passage confirms several New Testament references. The most notable
is that early Christians worshiped Jesus as God. Their practices also betray a
strong ethic, probably that of Jesus. There is also a reference to the love
feast and Lord's Supper. Later in the same letter, Pliny calls the teaching of
Jesus and his followers "excessive superstition" and "contagious
superstition," which may refer to Christian belief and proclamation of the
resurrection of Jesus.
Emperor Trajan. In reply to Pliny's letter, Emperor Trajan gives the
following guidelines for punishing Christians:
No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and
found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when
the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not
(that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of
repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. [ibid.,
10:97]
This sheds some light on how the early Roman government viewed
Christianity. They were to be punished for not worshiping the Roman gods,
but the persecution was not without restrictions.
[3]
==
Others examples of extra-Biblical confirmation of Biblical events:
.. Campaign into Israel by Pharaoh Shishak (1 Kgs 14:25-26), recorded
on the walls of the Temple of Amun in Thebes, Egypt.
.. Revolt of Moab against Israel (2 Kgs 1:1; 3:4-27), recorded on the
Mesha Inscription.
.. Fall of Samaria (2 Kgs 17:3-6, 24; 18:9-11) to Sargon II, king of
Assyria, as recorded on his palace walls.
.. Defeat of Ashdod by Sargon II (Is 20:1), as recorded on his palace
walls.
.. Campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah (2 Kgs
18:13-16), as recorded on the Taylor Prism.
.. Siege of Lachish by Sennacherib (2 Kgs 18:14, 17), as recorded on the
Lachish reliefs.
.. Assassination of Sennacherib by his own sons (2 Kgs 19:37), as
recorded in the annals of his son Esarhaddon.
.. Fall of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah
(2:13-15), as recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.
.. Fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (2 Kgs
24:10-14), as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles.
.. Captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, in Babylon (2 Kgs 24:15-16), as
recorded on the Babylonian Ration Records.
.. Fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians (Dn 5:30-31), as recorded
on the Cyrus Cylinder.
.. Freeing of captives in Babylon by Cyrus the Great (Ezr 1:1-4; 6:3-4),
as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder.
.. --
.. The existence of Jesus as recorded by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus,
Pliny the Younger, the Talmud, and Lucian
.. Forcing the Jews to leave Rome during the reign of Claudius (AD
41-54) (Acts 18:2), as recorded by Suetonius.
.. --
[4]
==
Secular History's Confirmation of the Reliability of the New
Testament.17First century historians confirm the general historical outline of
the New Testament.
a. Jewish Historian, Josephus (A.D. 37-100)
The Jewish historian Josephus, contemporary of Christ, abounds with
references to figures familiar to New Testament readers. F. F. Bruce
summarized the evidence:
Here, in the pages of Josephus, we meet many figures who are well-known
to us from the New Testament; the colourful family of the Herods; the
Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and the procurators of
Judea; the high priestly families-Annas, Caiaphas, Ananias, and the rest;
the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and so on.18
Moreover Josephus wrote of "the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ,
whose name was James ." (Antiquities XX 9:1). And in a more explicit but
disputed passage the Antiquities says:
At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus.. Pilate
condemned Him to be condemned and to die. And those who had become
His disciples did not abandon His discipleship. They reported that He had
appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive;
accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets
have recounted wonders (xviii.33, Arabic text).
b. Roman Historian, Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55?-after 117)
He wrote of Nero's attempt to relieve himself of the guilt of burning Rome:
Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished
with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians,
who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was
put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:
but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only
through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome
also (Annals XV.44).
c. Greek Satirist, Lucian (second century)
Lucian alludes to Christ in these words:
.. the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new
cult into the world.. Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that
they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for
all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist
himself and living under his laws (On the Death of Peregrine).
d. Roman Historian, Suetonius (c. A.D. 120)
Suetonius, court official under Hadrian, made two references to Christ: in the
Life of Claudius (25.4) he wrote, "As the Jews were making constant
disturbances at the instigation of Chestus [another spelling of Christus or
Christ], he expelled them from Rome." Elsewhere in the Lives of the Caesars
(26.2) he wrote: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class
of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."
e. Pliny the Younger (c. A.D. 112)
Writing to the emperor of his achievements as governor of Bithynia, Pliny the
Younger gave information on how he had killed multitudes of
Christians-men, women, and children. He said he attempted to "make them
curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." In the
same letter (Epistles X.96) he wrote of Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound
themselves to a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, and never to deny
a truth when they should be called upon to deliver it up.
.. -
f. Samaritan-born historian, Thallus (c. A.D. 52)
According to Julius Africanus (c. A.D. 221), "Thallus, in the third book of
his histories, explains away this darkness [at the time of the crucifixion] as an
eclipse of the sun-unreasonably, as it seems to me." It was unreasonable,
of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full
moon, and it was the time of the paschal full moon when Christ died.
.. -
g. Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion (after A.D. 73)
According to F. F. Bruce this letter residing in the British Museum is by a
father to his son in prison. In it he compares the deaths of Socrates,
Pythagoras, and Jesus as follows:
What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was
just after that that their kingdom was abolished.. But Socrates did not die
for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for
good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good;
he lived on in the teaching which he had given.19
h. The Jewish Talmud (completed by A.D. 500)
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a, "Eve of Passover") contains the
following explicit reference to Jesus:
On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald
went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going to be
stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel.
Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they
found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover.
[5]
==
1.3. Tacitus. The information provided by Tacitus, who wrote between A.D.
115 and 117, is very sketchy and may be derived from Josephus: "?They
got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator
Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius?" (Ann. 15.44.2). For Roman readers
the pertinent information about the Christians, whom Nero had blamed for
the fire in Rome (A.D. 64), was the identity and death of their namesake.
Another allusion to Roman knowledge of the crucifixion appears in the
Christian writer of the early third century, Julius Africanus; he cites (PG
10.89) one Thallus, a freedman of Tiberius who wrote a history (c. A.D. 50)
now lost, for the opinion that the darkness and earthquake attending the
cross were to be explained as an eclipse, inferring that Thallus mentioned the
crucifixion in book three of his history.
[6]
==
1.3.1. Greco-Roman Testimony. The third-century writer Julius Africanus
cites a first-century Greek historian, Thallus, who referred to the darkness
that occurred at the time of the crucifixion (see Death of Jesus). Early in the
second century the Roman legate Pliny the Younger wrote that Christians
met regularly and sang hymns to Christ "?as if to a god?" (Epp. 10:96.7), in
a way that suggested he realized that Jesus had been a human but doubted
that he was a god. About the same time the Roman historian Tacitus clearly
referred to "?Christ who had been executed by sentence of the procurator
Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius?" (Ann. 15:44). Tacitus' Roman
contemporary Suetonius speaks in one passage of "?Chrestus?" as the one
at whose instigation a riot involving Jews and Christians in Rome broke out
(Claudius 25:4)-probably a garbled reference to Christ as the founder of
Christianity.
[7]
==
==
Thallus
The death of Jesus may have been mentioned in an ancient history composed
many years before Tacitus, Suetonius, or Josephus ever wrote and probably
even prior to the Gospels. Circa AD 52, Thallus wrote a history of the
Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time.? 26 This
work itself has been lost and only fragments of it exist in the citations of
others. One such scholar who knew and spoke of it was Julius Africanus,
who wrote about AD 221. It is debated whether Thallus was the same
person referred to by Josephus as a wealthy Samaritan, who was made a
freedman by Emperor Tiberius and who loaned money to Herod Agrippa I.?
27
In speaking of Jesus' crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land
during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that
dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts:
On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks
were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts
were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History,
calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.? 28
Julius Africanus objected to Thallus' rationalization concerning the darkness
that fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion because an eclipse could not
take place during the time of the full moon, as was the case during the Jewish
Passover season.? 29 But Wells raises a fair question about this testimony.
Africanus only implies that Thallus linked the darkness to Jesus' crucifixion,
but we are not specifically told if Jesus is mentioned in Thallus' original
history at all.? 30
If this brief statement by Thallus refers to Jesus' crucifixion we can ascertain
that (1) the Christian gospel, or at least an account of the crucifixion, was
known in the Mediterranean region by the middle of the first century AD.
This brings to mind the presence of Christian teachings in Rome mentioned
by Tacitus and by Suetonius. (2) There was a widespread darkness in the
land, implied to have taken place during Jesus' crucifixion. (3) Unbelievers
offered rationalistic explanations for certain Christian teachings or for
supernatural claims not long after their initial proclamation, a point to which
we will return below.
[8]
==
The Death of Jesus
The Jewish leaders judged that Jesus was guilty of teaching spiritual
apostasy, thereby leading Israel astray (Talmud, cf. Apocryphon of John).
So the Jews sent a herald proclaiming that Jesus would be stoned for his
false teaching and invited anyone who wished to defend him to do so. But
none came forward to support him (Talmud).
After suffering persecution (Gospel of Truth) and as a result of his teachings
(Lucian), Jesus was put to death (Gospel of Thomas, Treatise on
Resurrection). He died at the hands of Roman procurator Pontius Pilate
(Tacitus), who crucified him (Josephus, Talmud, Lucian, Gospel of Truth,
Acts of Pilate) during the reign of Emperor Tiberius (Tacitus, Phlegon).
Even some details of the crucifixion are provided. The event occurred on
Passover Eve (Talmud) and included being nailed to a cross (Phlegon,
Gospel of Truth, Acts of Pilate, cf. Tacitus), after which the executioners
gambled for his garments (Acts of Pilate). There were signs in nature, too, as
darkness covered the land for three hours due to an eclipse of the sun
(Thallus, Phlegon), and great earthquakes occurred (Phlegon). One writer
(Mara Bar-Serapion) asserted that Jesus was executed unjustly and that the
Jews were judged accordingly by God.
[9]
==
Although the early Christian writers had reason to believe such a document
existed, evidence such as that found in the reference to Thallus is missing
here. In particular, there are no known fragments of the Acts of Pilate or any
evidence that it was specifically quoted by another writer. Additionally, it is
entirely possible that what Justin thought original was actually a concurrent
apocryphal gospel.? 84 At any rate, we cannot be positive as to this
purported imperial document. Like the Gnostic sources, we therefore are
cautious in our use of this source.
[10]
==
D. Thallus
Bruce, F.F. The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, 1960.
Quasten, Johannes. Patrology. 3 vols. Utrecht-Antwerp: Spectrum, 1953, II:
137-138.
[11]
==
While the crucifixion was in progress, (92) Jesus' executioners gambled for
his garments (Acts of Pilate; Justin). (93) Mara Bar-Serapion asserted that
Jesus was executed unjustly and that, as a result, the Jews were judged by
God. (94) The creed in 1 Peter 3:18 also notes the contrast between a
righteous person dying for sinners. (95) It is reported that darkness covered
the land during the crucifixion (Thallus, Phlegon), (96) followed by
earthquakes (Phlegon). (97) Jesus was on the cross until evening, (98) after
which his body was removed and he was buried (Justin; creeds: 1 Cor. 15:4;
Acts 13:29).[12]
==
Sixth, several non-Christian writers affirmed that Jesus had died by
crucifixion. These include Josephus, Tacitus, Thallus, and the Jewish Talmud.
The Jewish Talmud, for example, says that Yeshua (Jesus) was hung on a
tree on the eve of the Passover.?9? This is not a source considered friendly
to Christianity, so there's no reason to doubt its authenticity.
For these reasons and others, very few scholars believe the swoon theory
anymore. There's simply too much evidence against it.
[13]
==
Additional Support
Extra-biblical sources are another avenue worth pursuing when determining
whether the New Testament texts speak reliably concerning historical issues.
While less frequently used by scholars, a number of ancient secular sources
mention various aspects of Jesus' life, corroborating the picture presented by
the Gospels.?10? The writers of these sources include ancient historians such
as Tacitus, Suetonius, and Thallus. Jewish sources such as Josephus and the
Talmud add to our knowledge. Government officials such as Pliny the
Younger and even Roman Caesars Trajan and Hadrian describe early
Christian beliefs and practices. Greek historian and satirist Lucian and Syrian
Mara Bar-Serapion provide other details. Several nonorthodox, Gnostic
writings speak about Jesus in a more theological manner.?11?
Overall, at least seventeen non-Christian writings record more than fifty
details concerning the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus, plus
details concerning the earliest church. Most frequently reported is Jesus'
death, mentioned by twelve sources. Dated approximately 20 to 150 years
after Jesus' death, these secular sources are quite early by the standards of
ancient historiography.
Altogether, these non-Christian sources mention that Jesus fulfilled Old
Testament prophecy, performed miracles, led disciples, and that many
thought he was deity. These sources call him a good teacher or a
philosopher and state that his message included conversion, denial of the
gods, fellowship, and immortality. Further, they claim he was crucified for
blasphemy but rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples, who were
themselves transformed into bold preachers.?12?
[14]
==
27:32-38 The Crucifixion of Jesus by Pilate is well documented not only in
the gospels, but also by non-Christian writers (Tacitus, Josephus, Mara bar
Serapion, and Thallus). Crucifixion was a cruel form of death since it did not
damage any vital organs or cause excessive bleeding, but caused a long,
slow death, mostly from asphyxiation or shock. This cruel and humiliating
execution was reserved for foreigners, not Roman citizens. It was always a
public affair, becoming an especially useful deterrent to those who might be
entertaining thoughts of insurrection. The Jews detested this inhumane act of
execution, not only for its cruelty, but because the OT clearly stated that
anyone who hangs on a tree is "accursed of God" (Deut. 21:22, 23). And
Jesus, of course, was accursed of God for our sins (chart, Prophecies
Fulfilled at the Cross).
[15]
==
But, upon Agrippa's kind reception by Antonia, he betook him to pay his
respects to Caius, who was her grandson, and in very high reputation by
reason of the good will they bore his father.?d? (167) Now there was one
Thallus, a freedman of Caesar, of whom he borrowed a million of drachmae,
and thence repaid Antonia the debt he owed her; and by sending the over
plus in paying his court to Caius, became a person of great authority with
him.
[16]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
48 ?? ?at? t?? ????. [Vol. iii. p. 58, Elucid. V., this series.]
[1]Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene
Fathers Vol. VI : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D.
325. Fathers of the Third Century: Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius The
Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arnobius.
(136). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
[2]Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics.
Baker reference library (128). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
[3]Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics.
Baker reference library (382). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
[4]Associates for Biblical Research. (1995; 2003). Bible and Spade Volume
8 (8:118). Associates for Biblical Research.
17 For a critical and scholarly presentation of secular sources of early
Christianity, see F. F. Bruce, Non-Christian Origins.
18 Bruce, N.T. Documents, p. 104.
19 Bruce, N.T. Documents, p. 14.
[5]Geisler, N. L. (1976). Christian apologetics. Includes index. (322).
Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
Ann. Annales ab excessu divi Augusti
PG Patrologia graeca, ed. J. P. Migne
[6]Green, J. B., McKnight, S., & Marshall, I. H. (1992). Dictionary of Jesus
and the Gospels (842). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Ann. Annales ab excessu divi Augusti
Claudius from The Twelve Caesars
[7]Green, J. B., McKnight, S., & Marshall, I. H. (1992). Dictionary of Jesus
and the Gospels (292). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
? 26 26Bruce, Christian Origins, pp. 29-30.
? 27 27Ibid.; Anderson, Witness of History, p. 19.
? 28 28Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante-Nicene Fathers,
ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans,
1973), vol. VI, p. 130.
? 29 29See the discussion below on the Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a).
? 30Wells, Did Jesus Exist?, pp. 12-13. Wells' overall thesis is examined in
detail in Chapter 2.
[8]Habermas, G. R., & Habermas, G. R. (1996). The historical Jesus :
Ancient evidence for the life of Christ. Rev. ed. of: Ancient evidence for the
life of Jesus. (196). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.
[9]Habermas, G. R., & Habermas, G. R. (1996). The historical Jesus :
Ancient evidence for the life of Christ. Rev. ed. of: Ancient evidence for the
life of Jesus. (220). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.
? 84 84Daniel-Rops, "Silence of Jesus' Contemporaries," p. 14.
[10]Habermas, G. R., & Habermas, G. R. (1996). The historical Jesus :
Ancient evidence for the life of Christ. Rev. ed. of: Ancient evidence for the
life of Jesus. (217). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.
[11]Habermas, G. R., & Habermas, G. R. (1996). The historical Jesus :
Ancient evidence for the life of Christ. Rev. ed. of: Ancient evidence for the
life of Jesus. (288). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.
[12]Habermas, G. R., & Habermas, G. R. (1996). The historical Jesus :
Ancient evidence for the life of Christ. Rev. ed. of: Ancient evidence for the
life of Jesus. (248). Joplin, Mo.: College Press Pub. Co.
9 See Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Mo.: College Press,
1996), 202-205.
[13]Geisler, N. L., & Turek, F. (2004). I don't have enough faith to be an
atheist (306). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
10 While it is true that secular references to Jesus are generally brief and
sometimes derived from Christian sources, it does not follow that they should
be largely ignored, as is often their fate.
11 For specific details, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin,
Mo.: College Press, 1996), esp. chap. 9. Compare R. T. France, The
Evidence for Jesus (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1986); F. F.
Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins outside the New Testament (Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974); Edwin Yamauchi, "Jesus outside the New
Testament: What Is the Evidence?" in Jesus under Fire, ed. Michael Wilkins
and J. P. Moreland (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1995).
12 For details, see Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 11.
[14]Geisler, N. L., & Hoffman, P. K. (2001). Why I am a Christian :
Leading thinkers explain why they believe (150). Grand Rapids, Mich.:
Baker Books.
[15]Thomas Nelson, I. (1997, c1995). Woman's study Bible . (Mt 27:32).
Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
d Germanicus.
[16]Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1996, c1987). The works of Josephus :
Complete and unabridged. Includes index. (Ant 18.166). Peabody:
Hendrickson.
--
There's no hurry?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrmDWn6awMA
"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0001.html
Born once, die twice. Born twice, die once.
Wisdom of a Lifetime - Audio MP3 Collection -
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0002.html
The Last (5th) Horseman
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0003.html
The Facts About Jesus, the Bible & the Afterlife
http://bibleweb.info/ftp/ftp-members-0004.html
The Way - http://john-14-6.com/john-14-6.pdf
A Tribute to THE KING
http://bibleweb.info/public-a-tribute-to-the-king.pdf
My Main Collection - http://Bibleweb.Info/
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
Note that there is no mention of a man named "Jesus"!
Note the refusal to see what everyone else can see.
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference
to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians
derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin),
or Christ.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Quite why a passage about the Christians relating to Christ should be
ignored on these feeble grounds we are not told.
Since then there are HUNDREDS more sects worshiping the imaginary deity
of Saul/Paul!
Again any old excuse, probable or not.
Evidence fromJosephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Note the assertion as fact of a hypothesis. Data must be got rid off,
whatever it takes, it seems.
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be
found in the writings ofJosephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two
occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less
revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the
Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, saysJosephus, was "the brother of Jesus the
so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's
description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And
Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that
Josephusactually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly
astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion
declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him
a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ.
===>Josephuswould NEVER have said that! Only foolish Christians,
desperate for some "evidence" would accept this.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
And this is why no intelligent person is an atheist.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
13 Feb 2007 07:57:35 PM |
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wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an
accurate and trustworthy historical document,
===>You lie again! No such evidence exists!
Abuse... <sigh>
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
Note that there is no mention of a man named "Jesus"!
Note the refusal to see what everyone else can see.
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference
to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians
derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin),
or Christ.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
===>Get off your high horse, RP,
from down here it is obvious,
the "record" says NOTHING about any "Jesus"!
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Quite why a passage about the Christians relating to Christ should be
ignored on these feeble grounds we are not told.
===>Who said it should be "ignored"?
You obvioiusly cannot tell the difference between something
written about "Christus" and something written about "Jesus".
The report talks only about what those crazy "Christians" did
and believed.
Since then there are HUNDREDS more sects worshiping the imaginary deity
of Saul/Paul!
Again any old excuse, probable or not.
===>That is a FACT, not abn "excuse".
Evidence fromJosephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Note the assertion as fact of a hypothesis. Data must be got rid off,
whatever it takes, it seems.
===>That is the conclusion of numerous scholars who have
examined the issue.
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be
found in the writings ofJosephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two
occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less
revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the
Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, saysJosephus, was "the brother of Jesus the
so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's
description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And
Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that
Josephusactually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly
astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion
declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him
a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ.
===>Josephusw ould NEVER have said that! Only foolish Christians,
desperate for some "evidence" would accept this.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
===>This HAPPY poster have long abandoned any "beliefs".
Unlike believers, I now prefer to THINK and
act on the basis of provisional stipulations after
examining available evidence.
I warn you on the basis of personal experience:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH!
And this is why no intelligent person is an atheist.
===>Nor a "theist". -- L.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
14 Feb 2007 02:37:47 AM |
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|
On 14 Feb, 01:57, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
....
(abuse snipped)
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
I warn you on the basis of personal experience:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH!
Then your faith -- in conformity to societal values -- is in no
danger. You can't even discuss it!
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
15 Feb 2007 12:47:07 PM |
|
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wrote:
On 14 Feb, 01:57, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
...
(abuse snipped)
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
I warn you on the basis of personal experience:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH!
Then your faith -- in conformity to societal values -- is in no
danger. You can't even discuss it!
===>True, my faith was lost for ever,
once I began to think seiously about it.
Your problem RP is, you never stop to think.
Thus, your faith is still in danger! -- L.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
06 Mar 2007 08:30:15 AM |
|
|
On 15 Feb, 18:47, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 14 Feb, 01:57, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
...
(abuse snipped)
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
I warn you on the basis of personal experience:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH!
Then your faith -- in conformity to societal values -- is in no
danger. You can't even discuss it!
===>True, my faith was lost for ever,
once I began to think seiously about it.
Yours would be, if you ever did.
Your problem RP is, you never stop to think.
Projection noted.
Thus, your faith is still in danger!
A faith based on facts is never in danger. But you can't even discuss
yours!
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
10 Mar 2007 07:18:00 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On 15 Feb, 18:47, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 14 Feb, 01:57, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
roger_pea...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
Written by Michael Gleghorn
Note that the Christian approach is to seek the historical record and
see what it says. The usual atheist approach is to find excuses to
ignore the data, while keepint their own belief-system off the table.
Will we find the same here?
...
(abuse snipped)
LIES, LIES, LIES.
You are one of the sons of the FATHER OF LIES! -- L.
This sad, sad poster, has nothing to say for his own beliefs, nothing
to say when confronted with evidence except excuses, and finishes by
screaming 'liar! liar!".
I warn you on the basis of personal experience:
THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH!
Then your faith -- in conformity to societal values -- is in no
danger. You can't even discuss it!
===>True, my faith was lost for ever,
once I began to think seiously about it.
Yours would be, if you ever did.
Your problem RP is, you never stop to think.
Projection noted.
Thus, your faith is still in danger!
A faith based on facts is never in danger.
===>OXYMORON!
"Faith" is the exact opposite of any conclusion based on facts.
If you had facts, you would not need "faith". -- L.
.
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| User: "Pastor Fwap" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
06 Mar 2007 05:16:12 AM |
|
|
On 13 Feb 2007 00:47:12 -0800,
wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
....
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
He's quite right, actually. No serious historian would take
this as definitive proof. "Christ" is a title, not a name.
He is contemporary with, perhaps a bit earlier than the
earliest testaments, but not a contemporary of Jesus, and
thus no better informed. Evidence of christianity, yes, but
not of Jesus.
....
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
That's an interesting interpretation. Could you explain how
you make the leap from the existence of a messianic cult to
the existence of a messiah, and from the existence of the
messiah to the existence of Jesus?
And how is pointing out your failure to explain the leap a
sign of desperation? Annoyance at your unfounded overbearing
attitude, perhaps, but desperation?
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Quite why a passage about the Christians relating to Christ should be
ignored on these feeble grounds we are not told.
Ignored? No historical record like this is irrelevant. It
tells us that there was a messianic cult in 112. Very
interesting. But it doesn't tell us squat about this
supposed messianic preacher who lived nearly a century
before, in a different province.
It's a passage about a cult worshipping a messiah, not
necessarily christians as you would know them following
"Christ" as in the person of Jesus. Are you really so
ignorant about your religion that you do not know the
meaning and history of the most common title of its founder?
....
Evidence fromJosephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Note the assertion as fact of a hypothesis. Data must be got rid off,
whatever it takes, it seems.
....
Really, it's well established. Don't make a fool of yourself
protecting a lost cause to the bitter end. These forgeries
are rather common - this one was just one of the more
persistent ones.
....
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
06 Mar 2007 08:26:32 AM |
|
|
On 6 Mar, 11:16, Pastor Fwap <bergj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Feb 2007 00:47:12 -0800,
wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
...
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
He's quite right, actually. No serious historian would take
this as definitive proof.
I'm afraid that you are mistaken, and I'm not sure how your comment
addresses mine. Any evidence may be ignored by speculating that it is
invalid for some unknown reason; but we need evidence for that basis,
not just speculation.
"Christ" is a title, not a name.
This is a curious statement. While the term has other uses, is there
any Roman text that uses "Christus" of anyone but Jesus of Nazareth?
And who else matches the above description?
He is contemporary with, perhaps a bit earlier than the
earliest testaments, but not a contemporary of Jesus, and
thus no better informed.
This statement seems to suppose that Tacitus' testimony may be ignored
for all events of which he is not a contemporary. Quite why we should
believe this I am not sure -- I realise that you read this somewhere,
rather than thought this yourself, so I don't blame you. Tacitus,
Suetonius, Cassius Dio and Josephus are our primary sources for all
first century history.
Evidence of christianity, yes, but not of Jesus.
I am unable to perceive how you get here.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
That's an interesting interpretation. Could you explain how
you make the leap from the existence of a messianic cult to
the existence of a messiah, and from the existence of the
messiah to the existence of Jesus?
Can you explain to me how you are unable to perceive that a passage
talking about the founder of the Christians, crucified under Pontius
Pilate, refers to the founder of the Christians, crucified under
Pontius Pilate?
Any position that has to be supported by obtuseness needs no
discussion, in my humble opinion.
And how is pointing out your failure to explain the leap a
sign of desperation?
Only desperate people resort to the tactic of refusing to read what is
before their eyes.
Annoyance at your unfounded overbearing
attitude, perhaps,
Insult noted.
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can
be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the
Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated
around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to
conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8}
Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a
great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of
Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned
about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light,
when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god,
===>AGAIN, no "Jesus", only a reference to a new god named "CHRISTOS"
being worshipped by a weird sect.
Quite why a passage about the Christians relating to Christ should be
ignored on these feeble grounds we are not told.
Ignored? No historical record like this is irrelevant.
This would appear to be a distinction without a difference.
It tells us that there was a messianic cult in 112.
And who it worshipped.
Very interesting. But it doesn't tell us squat about this
supposed messianic preacher who lived nearly a century
before, in a different province.
112-30 = 100? Hmm.
It's a passage about a cult worshipping a messiah, not
necessarily christians as you would know them following
"Christ" as in the person of Jesus.
Ahem. Which Roman texts use 'Christiani' to mean anyone but
Christians? Pardon me, but this type of argument based on twisting
words is beneath contempt.
Are you really so ignorant about your religion that you do not know the
meaning and history of the most common title of its founder?
You may have made yourself wilfully ignorant. You should not presume
that the rest of us propose to share your stupidity.
Evidence fromJosephus
===>This is a Christian forgery, inserted totally out of context.
Note the assertion as fact of a hypothesis. Data must be got rid of,
whatever it takes, it seems.
...
Really, it's well established.
You evidently don't know much about the current status of the
question, and are foolish enough to parade the fact. Read Alice
Whealey's study of the historiography, published by the SBL in 2003,
for a *real* idea of the history of scholarship, or J. Carleton
Paget's article in the JTS 52 in 2001 for the real issues.
Don't make a fool of yourself...
That appears to be you, talking on matters of which you know nothing.
protecting a lost cause to the bitter end.
Ignorance noted.
And whatever has this to do with my comments?
These forgeries are rather common ...
You know nothing on this matter.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
10 Mar 2007 07:12:56 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On 6 Mar, 11:16, Pastor Fwap <bergj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Feb 2007 00:47:12 -0800,
wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
...
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . .
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the
moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but
even in Rome. . . .{5}
===>That is evidence only of what the worshipers of the new deity named
"Christus" were claiming!
Note how this attempts to sidestep what the evidence says by imagining
how it might have come about.
He's quite right, actually. No serious historian would take
this as definitive proof.
I'm afraid that you are mistaken, and I'm not sure how your comment
addresses mine. Any evidence may be ignored by speculating that it is
invalid for some unknown reason; but we need evidence for that basis,
not just speculation.
"Christ" is a title, not a name.
This is a curious statement. While the term has other uses, is there
any Roman text that uses "Christus" of anyone but Jesus of Nazareth?
And who else matches the above description?
===>Typical Mr. High Horse double talk.
Do you also do tongue-speak?
In fact those writers referring to "Christos" or "Christus"
being worshipped as a god
DO NOT talk about any "Jesus of Nazareth", who was a LATER INVENTION
of Gospel fiction writers, mostly modeled after the messianic hero
Judas the Galilean.
He is contemporary with, perhaps a bit earlier than the
earliest testaments, but not a contemporary of Jesus, and
thus no better informed.
This statement seems to suppose that Tacitus' testimony may be ignored
for all events of which he is not a contemporary. Quite why we should
believe this I am not sure -- I realise that you read this somewhere,
rather than thought this yourself, so I don't blame you. Tacitus,
Suetonius, Cassius Dio and Josephus are our primary sources for all
first century history.
===>Yes, and none of them talk about "Jesus of Nazareth"!
Evidence of christianity, yes, but not of Jesus.
I am unable to perceive how you get here.
===>They speak of worshipers of a new deity called "CHRISTOS",
not about any "Jesus of Nazareth".
They also quote some of the fictional details those Christor-worshipers
talk about.
===>And THAT is NOT the name of any real person!
No evidence of "Jesus"!
Again refusal to read what the record sees. Desperation appears in
this, I think.
That's an interesting interpretation. Could you explain how
you make the leap from the existence of a messianic cult to
the existence of a messiah, and from the existence of the
messiah to the existence of Jesus?
Can you explain to me how you are unable to perceive that a passage
talking about the founder of the Christians, crucified under Pontius
Pilate, refers to the founder of the Christians, crucified under
Pontius Pilate?
===>There is no doubt they are talking about the worshipers of the
new deity who's god, according to the fiction writers, was executed under
P.P.
Any position that has to be supported by obtuseness needs no
discussion, in my humble opinion.
===>You have neve yet expressed any "humble opinion".
Are you planning to do so now? -- L.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources |
12 Mar 2007 09:03:04 AM |
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On 11 Mar, 01:12, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
wrote:
On 6 Mar, 11:16, Pastor Fwap <bergj...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Feb 2007 00:47:12 -0800,
wrote:
On 13 Feb, 02:54, Libertarius <Libertar...@nothingbutthe.truth> wrote:
e wrote:
...
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls
"probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New
Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the
Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman
historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered | | | | | | |
