And So All Israel Will Be Saved!

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	18 Jun 2007 11:56:14 AM
Object:	And So All Israel Will Be Saved!

The Gospel of the Kingdom
By Philip Mauro
CHAPTER FIFTEEN
SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED
In my comments on the words, "until the fulness of
the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25) I pointed out
that, notwithstanding that the passage in which those
words occur is plainly a prophecy of the state in which
the Jewish people were to exist throughout this
present age, and that it says nothing whatever as to
their state thereafter, it is now commonly interpreted
as predicting that, in a future "dispensation", the whole
nation is to be healed of its spiritual blindness.
The next words of the passage are these:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and
shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this
is My covenant unto them when I shall take away
their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are
enemies for your sakes; but as touching the
election they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."
(Rom. 11:26-28).
This passage likewise has been very badly treated
in the interest of the new dispensationalism. And,
like as the preceding passage has been transmuted
from a prophecy strictly limited to this age into one
relating wholly to a future age, so this passage also
is lifted bodily out of the age where the Spirit of God
has placed it, and is transported to a future age,
an age which exists only in the imagination of men.
For the passage is usually interpreted precisely as if
it read, "And THEN all Israel shall be saved", instead
of "And SO all Israel shall be saved".
Indeed all that is needed for the correction of this
gigantic "dispensational" error is first to note the
significance of that little word "so", and then to
ascertain its meaning from the context, which is
easily done.
The adverb "so" answers to the question "How?".
It says nothing at all in answer to the question "When?".
Yet my experience has been that, whenever Romans 11:26
is cited by dispensationalists, it is presented as proof that
the entire Jewish race, reconstituted into an earthly nation,
is to be saved in a future "dispensation". In fact, however,
the passage teaches the very opposite; namely: that the
phrase "all Israel" means, not the entire Jewish race of
a future age, but the entire body of the redeemed of this
gospel age. The word "so" occurs in the concluding part
of the passage and hence necessarily refers back to the
preceding verses, where the apostle, after explaining who
they are that constitute God's true "Israel", tells in detail,
and illustrates by the figure of the "good olive tree," just
how God's Israel was to "be saved". He there describes
beforehand precisely what God has been doing from that
day to this; and when he finished his description, and has
illustrated it with marvellous clearness by the figure of the
olive tree, he brings the matter to a conclusion by saying:
"And so", that is, in the manner he had been describing,
"all Israel shall be saved". And he adds that the saving
of "all Israel" in that manner would fulfill certain Old
Testament prophecies, which he quotes.
If therefore we simply ascertain from the preceding verses
(as can be done with little trouble and with certainty) who
are the "all Israel" of God's purpose, and how they were to
"be saved", we shall also ascertain in the process when they
were to be saved.
WHO ARE THE "ALL ISRAEL" OF ROM. 11:26?
The "all Israel" of Rom. 11:26 is the whole body of God's
redeemed people. It is composed of "the election" (which,
as we have seen, has "obtained" what the natural Israel as
a whole had "not obtained") with the addition thereto of
believers from among the Gentiles. For the main purpose
of this passage (Rom. IX-XI) and that also of chapter IV,
and likewise of Galatians (chapters III and IV) is to make
known that the real "Israel", the true "children of Abraham",
who inherit the promises of God, are not the natural seed
of Abraham but his spiritual seed.
Paul proves his doctrine, and at the same time exhibits
the great difference between Abraham's natural seed
and his spiritual, by citing the historical fact that
"Abraham had TWO sons" (Gal. 4:22); and from the
Old Testament records of the very different things that
befell Ishmael and Isaac respectively, Paul deduces
the great difference, in the purposes of God, between
the unbelieving mass of the Israelitish people (answering
to the son of the bondwoman) and the believing "remnant"
(answering to the son of the free-woman). For those things,
the apostle tells us, "are an allegory", the meaning of which
he proceeds to explain (Gal. 4:21-31).
Abraham's elder son, Ishmael, represents the natural Israel,
those "born after the flesh". Ishmael had the first-born's
place in Abraham's house for a number of years before Isaac,
who was to be the true and sole heir, was born. And during
all that time, which answers to the period from Sinai to
Pentecost--that is the era of the old covenant--Ishmael was
the heir apparent of all that Abraham had. Moreover, even
after Isaac appeared upon the scene, Ishmael continued for
a time in occupation of the premises, and took advantage
of his position to persecute the true heir. The period when
Ishmael and Isaac were both under one roof and the former
still had the status of a son and heir of Abraham, answers
to the time from Pentecost to the destruction of Jerusalem.
For during that period the natural Israel, "the son of the
bondwoman," still occupied the holy land and city, and
"persecuted" the true Israel (Gal. 4:29; 1 Thess. 2:15).
But that era of the overlapping of "the two covenants" was
of short duration. For "what saith the Scripture? Cast out
the bond woman and her son: for the son of the bond woman
shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" (Gal. 4:30).
And the next verse gives us the application of the incident:
"So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bond woman,
but of the free".
The meaning of the words, "shall not be heir," is free from
all uncertainty. Those words mean that the promises of
God to Abraham are all for his spiritual seed. And this,
moreover, is precisely what the apostle had already said
in plain language: "Know ye therefore that they which are
of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (3:7).
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and
heirs according to the promise" (3:29). The same truth
is plainly taught in Romans 4:13-16.
Coming now to Romans IX-XI, it is the plain teaching
of that passage:
1) That God's true "Israel," the nation concerning which it
is said, "And so all Israel shall be saved", is the whole body
of the redeemed of the Lord.
2) That that body is composed of the believing "remnant"
of the natural Israel (the "remnant according to the election
of grace", Ch. 11:5) with the addition thereto of believing
Gentiles.
Those two elements, so diverse and antagonistic by nature,
are incorporated into a spiritual unity, "the unity of the
Spirit" (Eph. 2:12-18, 4:3). And this is according to that
"mystery" of God's eternal purpose, which was not clearly
revealed in ages past, but now is made fully known
(Eph. 3:4-6). That "mystery" is what is graphically
illustrated by the olive tree of Romans XI. And as regards
the salvation of the natural Israel in a future era, so far
from teaching that doctrine, the passage we are studying
was written for the purpose of refuting it. This will very
clearly appear in what follows.
This section of the Epistle begins with the declaration
of a fact which caused the apostle great heaviness and
continual sorrow in his heart, namely, that "they are
not all Israel which are of Israel" (9:6). Observe here
the phrase, "all Israel," concerning which we are now
inquiring. And observe further that what we here are
told is, not what it includes, but what it does not include.
The "all Israel" of this passage does not embrace
all who are Israelites. Paul is here speaking of his
"kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites"
(ver. 3, 4). And what caused him such acute anguish
of mind was the fact, revealed to him by the Spirit of God,
that not all these, but indeed only a few of them, were
to be included in the "all Israel" of God's purposes.
It is simply impossible that Paul could have penned those
words of poignant grief; it is impossible, I say, that he
could have wished himself "accursed from Christ" for
the sake of his "kinsmen according to the flesh" if he
had held and was about to declare the doctrine now
frequently attributed to him, namely, that all the Israelites
in the world were to be saved at the second coming of Christ
--an event the christians of that day regarded as imminent.
That doctrine, which was the very corner stone of the Judaism
of that day, Paul had cast aside; and it was moreover an
important part of his ministry to expose the falsity of it.
The next two verses (Rom. 9, 7, 8) make the matter
still clearer. There we read:
"Neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they
all children: but 'in Isaac shall thy seed be called'. That
is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not
the children of God: but the children of the promise are
counted for the seed."
This calls for no explanation; for it is the Spirit's own
explanation. We need only to observe that the reason why
the truth here stated caused the apostle such acute distress
was that it so rigidly excludes from God's salvation all the
natural descendants of Abraham except the few who were
of the faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:13-16) that is, those who
believed the gospel.
The apostle then proceeds to make known that it had been
God's plan and purpose from the beginning to save--not all
the natural descendants of Abraham, but--only such as He
should choose. And here we have the doctrine of "election"
(Rom. 9:10-26) which takes its name from the fact that God
makes an "election" or choice, from among Jews and Gentiles,
of those He will save and have eternally as His own people.
This principle of God's sovereign choice is illustrated by
the case of Esau and Jacob (vv. 10-13) where His choice
was made before the children were born.
In the closing verses of chapter IX (27-33) Paul returns
to the matter that was causing him such acute sorrow,
namely that, as Isaiah had prophesied, "Though the number
of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant
(only) shall be saved". That remnant is the Jewish part of
"the election"; and thus we have a clear light upon verse 26
of Chapter XI; for the words "a remnant shall be saved",
explain the words, "all Israel shall be saved".
In chapter X the apostle, after expressing the desire of his
heart and his prayer to God for Israel "that they might be
saved", goes on to show that none can "be saved" except
by believing the gospel ("the word of faith which we preach",
v. 8); and that in respect to this vital matter there is
"no difference between the Jew and the Greek. For whosoever
shall call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved". And the
chapter closes with a strong intimation that the Israelitish
nation as a whole would not be saved; the word of Jehovah
to that nation being, "All day long I have stretched forth
My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (v. 21).
Special heed should be given to the first part of chapter XI.
It shows that God's rejection of Israel nationally does not
warrant the conclusion that God has cast away His people.
For, as we have already seen, God's part of the nation,
that is, the election, He did not then cast away, and never
will. Hence, in bestowing upon "the election" what had
been promised to "Israel", God was fulfilling His promises
strictly in accordance with their true intent. The result is
that "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"
(11:7).
Seeing therefore that "the election," by believing the gospel
of Christ, has obtained (and certainly will never be deprived
of) that which God had promised to "Israel", it is clear that
"the remnant according to the election of grace", with
believers from among the Gentiles added, is the "Israel"
of the prophetic Scriptures. Indeed it is evident, upon an
impartial study of the entire passage, that its main purpose
is to make known that very fact.
And this purpose stands forth in the clearest light in the
figure of the olive tree, whereby the apostle, at the end
of the passage, illustrates the truth he has been expounding.
That olive tree represents "the Israel of God",
"the election", the "one body" of the redeemed. Not all who
are of Israel are in it. On the contrary, many of the natural
branches, "because of unbelief were broken off" (v. 20).
And on the other hand, many believing Gentiles are included;
these being the branches of "the olive tree which is wild by
nature, which branches have been "grafted contrary to nature
into a good olive tree". This is the fulfilment of all God's
purposes and promises, the final outcome of all His dealings
in grace with both Jews and Gentiles.
And now, in seeking an answer to the question, Who are
the "all Israel" that are to be saved? We have found also
the answer to the other question. How shall they be saved?
For, as we have seen, the passage teaches in the plainest
way that they are to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ.
And in so teaching, it simply affirms the foundation truth
of the Gospel, namely, that there is no other way of
salvation; for "he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting
life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
The natural branches of the olive tree were broken off
"because of unbelief," and any of them that are saved,
must be saved by personal and individual faith; for there
is no other way.
Furthermore, in saying that "God is able to graft them
in again", and that He will do so "if they abide not still
in unbelief" (v. 23), the passage bears a clear witness to
the truth that there is no other salvation for them but that
which the olive tree represents. This verse alone forbids
the idea that there is, or can be, a national salvation for
the Jewish race in some future era. God, in His great
forbearance and long suffering (II Pet. 3:9, 15) still keeps
open to them the door of salvation, so that individual
Israelites, by personal faith in Jesus Christ, may enter in
and be saved. But when He rises up and shuts that door,
then they who begin to seek Him for salvation will hear
Him say, "I know you not; depart from Me, all ye workers
of iniquity", and it was to Jews He said this (Lk 13:25, 27).
Furthermore the word "So," in Romans 11:26, meaning
in the manner described above and illustrated by the figure
of the olive tree, plainly answers the question, How all
Israel is to be saved. They will "all be saved" precisely
"SO", and not otherwise.
And finally we have found also, in what has been set forth
above, the answer to the question, "When shall they be
saved?". For, seeing that all Israel shall be saved so--
that is, by means of "the word of faith" which the apostles
preached, then most certainly they must be saved ere this
day of gospel-salvation comes to an end. And this is plainly
declared in other Scriptures, as has been shown above.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1927_mauro_gospel-kingdom/mg-15.html
<What follows is my explanation of those verses>
The "blindness" happened "in part" to national Israel,
so that the fullness of the Gentiles could come in.
Since it does say, "in part", this does not mean that
no Jews could be saved during that time, so yes,
they had their opportunity.
Dispensationalism assuming that he means that some Jews
are saved and some Gentiles are saved and then God goes
back to national Israel and saves it, thereby forcing every
single Jew on the planet to be saved.
But what is Dispensationalism based on? Darby's idea
that Jesus came to set up an Earthly kingdom and failed
and so, it was delayed. And that is what this idea of a
future national salvation of Israel is based on. (:
And it would mean that the blindness would have to happen
to national Israel AS A WHOLE. And yet, we know that
there were some Jews still being saved. In fact, it was
mostly Jews.
Paul was not saying that the whole of national Israel was
blinded. He said, "in part". And what would be the point
of that? If He's going to save all of national Israel anyway,
why save some Jews first and then some Gentiles and then
the rest of the Jews? Huh?! This has God proceeding in a
non-sensical manner. (:
We must stop taking passages out of context, for it is then
that they do not read as they were meant. Looking in THE
SAME LETTER, we can see that Paul discounted the idea of
"national Israel" as being what he was talking about.
"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" - Rom 9:6b
Now how can it be that God is going to save national Israel,
when the Scriptures tell us that not everyone who is born
into national Israel, is of Israel? Therefore, it cannot be
"national Israel" that was being discussed as being saved
(although some of it would be, as Paul said).
Do you not see that if you make this claim, that you are
by default claiming that it is circumcision that is the key
and not faith in Christ, because you end up saying that
God is going to save national Israel, regardless if they
believe or not and btw, as a side note, that also fries your
"free will" belief, if you have one. :)
Let us read it again, with Romans 9:6b (quoted above)
in mind...
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel
will be saved" - Romans 11:25-26a
The "shall be" is not future tense from the point of time
after the fullness of the Gentiles came in. It was future
tense to the point in time that Paul was writing it and
present tense to the point in time that the fullness of
the Gentiles had come in.
And now we can see that it reads quite differently. Unless
of course, you do think that God was acting in a non-sensical
manner? Surely not, right? :)
"Come, let us REASON TOGETHER, saith the Lord."
Paul is saying that some Jews are saved and some Gentiles
are saved and once the fullness of the Gentiles had come in,
AT THAT POINT, "all Israel shall be saved".
I.e., As I said, some Jews are saved, then some Gentiles are
saved and then, at that point in time, all Israel is saved.
How can this be said? Easy! The true Israel is *NOT*
"national Israel". It is "the Israel of God". They are
confused about what the true "Israel" is and it was
the true Israel that God was going to save. :)
To say otherwise, is to pit the Bible against itself. Namely,
for example, it is to pit Romans 11:25-26 against both
Romans 9:6b and Galatians 6:15-16 (quoted below).
And what the Bible actually tells us in Galatians 6:15-16 is:
Galatians 6:15-16
15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth
any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace
be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Now it is, "in Christ" that we are talking about here,
is it not?
Of course it is. :)
So how can "circumcision availeth nothing", if God
is planning on going back and saving national Israel,
because they are national Israel? That could be the
only reason. While they may wish to quote a covenant,
first of all, that covenant was broken by national Israel
and the covenant that God made, as is clear in Isaiah,
to whom you referred, was to both Jews and Gentiles
as His church/people. So how can it just be to national
Israel?
We must stop looking at Old Testament quotes of prophecy
regarding the church with the idea that they are strictly
national, but rather, we must view them as symbolism of a
spiritual truth. Or we can prefer to claim that the Apostles
were wrong, since there is simply no way at all to reconcile
Paul's statements with them. In fact, there is no way to
reconcile Romans 9:6b with Romans 11:26-26 under their
view and that is in the very same letter! And frankly,
Galatians 6:15-16 puts the final nail in the coffin of this
"God saves national Israel" doctrine. Either it was about
the spiritual truth, or the national salvation of Israel.
Take your pick, because it is absolutely crystal clear
that you cannot have them both!
Now they can quote all of the passages that they want to,
but all they will be doing, is seeking to pit the Bible
against itself. (:
If they wish to quote other passages, that's fine, but in
order for us to think that their doctrine is Biblical, they
must also show how they can be (when viewed from
the perspective of their personal doctrine) reconciled
with Paul's statements. If they cannot do that, in detail
and making it clear to us, then they have not supported
their doctrine as Biblical.
Circumcision is not the issue in Christ and Paul showed
clearly that "the Israel of God" are those in Christ, whether
Jew, or Gentile. Thus, when Paul said that "all Israel"
would be saved, he was speaking of those in Christ.
The "Israel of God". Or does anyone wish to claim that
the "Israel of God" is not what Paul said it is?
Taking it the way they do, they have the Bible at odds with
itself. Paul said that they are NOT all Israel, which are
born of Israel (national Israel). Yet they wish to say that
in the Scripture they quote, Paul is also saying the opposite.
That all of national Israel, is Israel, since God will,
according to them, save all of national Israel anyway.
This is the problem with the Dispensationalist doctrine.
It always ends up pitting the Bible against itself and having
the Apostles teach one thing to one church and the opposite
to another, rather than taking the time to see how it all fits
together and if their doctrine holds water and in this case,
it does not. (:
So it seems that when dealing with Romans 11:25-26,
Dispensationalists change the wording from, "AND SO",
to "AND THEN". This makes a big difference!
And they are forgetting that Paul just finished telling people
how it is not national Israel that the covenant is with, by
comparing it to the bondwoman and the church to the free.
And he clearly says, "they are not all Israel, which are of
Israel". Now why would he say that, if being a Jew is what
mattered in his statement, "and so, all Israel shall be
saved"? How is it that he could be saying that all of
national Israel would be saved, if he just finished saying
that "they are not all Israel", referring to those born into
national Israel? That doesn't make any sense and Paul
would be blatantly contradicting himself. (: He also said
that the bondwoman shall not be heir with the free. So
can they explain how it is that what you believe could be
true, given what else Paul had to say? For your belief to
be true, Paul would have to be contradicting himself. (:
They are interpreting it as if it read, "and THEN all Israel
will be saved". But it doesn't say that and they are changing
the wording of the passage. (:
They read it as follows:
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And THEN all Israel is saved.
And they take #3 as meaning, "national Israel".
But to take it as if it read "and THEN", changed
the wording. The Dispensationalists knows this,
which is why they tried to respond by arguing
that the wording doesn't make any difference.
Huh?!? The wording doesn't make any difference?!?
Translated, that means, "It doesn't matter what
the Bible actually says. My personal doctrine is
right, period and if the wording of the Bible gets
in the way, too bad! Believe me instead! I will!".
In reality, it says, "and SO". Now what does that
word "so" mean? It simply means, "in this manner".
What manner?
Romans 11:25-26a
25) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in
your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened
to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26a) And so all Israel will be saved...
Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (IN THIS MANNER), all Israel is saved.
It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then God
goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word "then"
is not there! It says, "and so". I.e., "and in this manner".
Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.
1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO, all Israel is saved!
And in this manner (way), all Israel is saved. That is what
the word "so" means. If you doubt this, look it up in the
original Greek.
So = Houto (G3779) - in this way
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.

User: "�andy"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 01:28:07 PM

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:54:16 -0400,
in article <mh2g73tllehhpbjj072fu1ka45cglbhe1q@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:13:00 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

That's why you have to quote whole chapters telling us
why Romans 11

News flash: Romans 11 *is* a "whole chapter".

<lies snipped>

Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" and Jews who are now being saved
into the church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so
they try to confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any
restoration for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and
perfect contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel" that "shall be saved"
(future), during the time of the fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in".
--
But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15:57
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
�2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 03:05:12 PM

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:54:16 -0400,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:13:00 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

That's why you have to quote whole chapters
telling us why Romans 11

News flash: Romans 11 *is* a "whole chapter".

<lies snipped>

Romans 11 clearly shows

That it is a whole chapter and so, your comment
that I quote whole chapters to tell you about
Romans 11 was a foolish attempt at ridiculing me,
which backfired on you.
<snip>
As for the rest, I'm not going to let you rehash
over and over again, what I have dealt with
time and time again, while you call my responses
"filibusters", because you can't deal with them
and then ignore them and post the same garbage
again and again, pretending that I never responded
to it.
I won't play your deceptive game with you. I will
however, pray for you, that this spirit of darkness,
deception and hate that surrounds you, will be
broken through and that God will reach down
and pull you out of it.
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 05:10:44 PM

"Pastor Dave" < SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mndg73t9livb1hh013rt9o6sebdbj8bpgm@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 07:10:02 PM

On Jun 19, 4:10 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:

"Pastor Dave" < SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in messagenews:mndg73t9=

livb1hh013rt9o6sebdbj8bpgm@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, =AEandy
<pulpitf...@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).

www.geocities.com/fredstov...@sbcglobal.net/

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God =

a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

<)))))><

Preparing the way of the Lord.

Another empty post by Freddie? I guess he still has nothing to say!
Dave, I was reading through Rom 11, and was curious about vs 3 & 4!
As I read it, God promised Elijah to save a remnant, only 7000 men, of
which it was said that all of Israel was saved! Now apparently that
remnant was only a small portion of Israel, so how did it constitute
all of Israel! What happened to those who were not of the remnant?
Who were not saved!
Now Paul refers to this about Elijah and the remnant, in regards to
those Israelite in the day of Paul, and those who would be alive at
the fulfillment of the time of the Gentiles, that again had set aside
a remnant! Again if their is a remnant, that means that not all were
saved, only a portion! So how could Paul say all of Israel was saved,
when there were many in fact who were not? What became of those who
were not saved? What has become of all the national Israelites, who
have previously perished, even before this time? Are they not a part
of all Israel? Are they now lost and forgotten, condemned to the lake
of fire on Judgement day? We understand, that at the time Paul wrote
Romans, that the daily sacrifice was still being made in Jerusalem,
but since the daily sacrifice ceased in 70AD how have the Israelites
maintained their favored status with God! Those who have died,
without Christ, and without a daily sacrifice, how are they still part
of all of Israel? Will they also be saved on Judgement Day being part
of all of Israel?
It seems to me, before we can determine the nature of those who are in
the remnant, and what it means to be saved, and all to be saved, that
we must first figure out what it means to not be in the remnant! Then
we can begin to understand how all does not mean all, but a few!
That way when we look at Israel today and consider according to the
Dispensationalist version of the time of the Gentiles coming to a
close, then do we now also look for only a remnant to be saved! Maybe
only 7000? How would that consitute all of Israel being saved! The
Dispensationalist do have a strange idea of "all" if 7000, means all
of a nation of several million individuals, to say nothing of those
who are not even in the Nation of Israel! Or do they mean all, as
there will not be any casualties at all? Every Israelite will be
saved!
Of course we also have to consider, who are these Israelites! Are
they really from all the tribes of Israel? How do they know? Some of
those 10 northern tribes may be really hard to find now! So maybe
they just mean Jews from the tribe of Judah, not really all
Israelites, just some special ones that we call Israelites now because
in 1948, the nation of Israel was reconstituted as a nation? This
afterall is the sign of the end of the time of the Gentiles? Or is it
the 6 day war, when a part of the city was liberated? Or maybe none
of this really matter and none of it is really a fulfillment of
prophecy, until the whole city is liberated, and cleased of the
foreigners! That will make room for Israelites to come from all over
the world? Now that will trully be the time of the end of the
Gentiles trodding down the City! Right?
Now we have all the Israelites in one place, so God can save them
all! Or is it still a Remnant which God is going to save?
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 08:04:16 PM

"gatekeeper" <.......SNAFU.....@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182298202.395701.32420@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 19, 4:10 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:

"Pastor Dave" < SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in

messagenews:mndg73t9livb1hh013rt9o6sebdbj8bpgm@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitf...@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

"Jesus

a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

<)))))><

Preparing the way of the Lord.

-Another empty post by Freddie? I guess he still has nothing to say!
Pointing out that scripture says you're antichrist and heretics is an empty
post.
ROTFL!!!!
-Dave, I was reading through Rom 11, and was curious about vs 3 & 4!
-As I read it, God promised Elijah to save a remnant, only 7000 men, of
-which it was said that all of Israel was saved! Now apparently that
-remnant was only a small portion of Israel, so how did it constitute
-all of Israel! What happened to those who were not of the remnant?
Duh....Read the book. They're the children of promise. The church is the few
chosen of the many saved, but they accept Him after He returns (Zech 12:10)
and when you add them: "I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man
could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood
before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms
in their hands" (Rev. 7:9).
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	19 Jun 2007 09:56:28 PM

On Jun 19, 7:04 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:

"gatekeeper" <.......SNAFU.....@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1182298202.395701.32420@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 19, 4:10 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:> "Pasto=

r Dave" < SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in

messagenews:mndg73t9livb1hh013rt9o6sebdbj8bpgm@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, =AEandy
<pulpitf...@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This i=

s a

deceiver and an antichrist."

The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read

"Jesus

www.geocities.com/fredstov...@sbcglobal.net/

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God

a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

<)))))><

Preparing the way of the Lord.

-Another empty post by Freddie? I guess he still has nothing to say!

Pointing out that scripture says you're antichrist and heretics is an emp=

post.

ROTFL!!!!

-Dave, I was reading through Rom 11, and was curious about vs 3 & 4!
-As I read it, God promised Elijah to save a remnant, only 7000 men, of
-which it was said that all of Israel was saved! Now apparently that
-remnant was only a small portion of Israel, so how did it constitute
-all of Israel! What happened to those who were not of the remnant?

Duh....Read the book. They're the children of promise. The church is the =

few

chosen of the many saved, but they accept Him after He returns (Zech 12:1=

and when you add them: "I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man
could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood
before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and pal=

in their hands" (Rev. 7:9).

His,

--

For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."

The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jes=

a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

<)))))><

Preparing the way of the Lord.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Freddie now says that Israel is the Church! So you do believe in
Spiritual Israel?
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	20 Jun 2007 12:50:40 AM

"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182308188.956512.13950@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 19, 7:04 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:

"gatekeeper" <.......SNAFU.....@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1182298202.395701.32420@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 19, 4:10 pm, "Fred A Stover" <fredsto...@email.com> wrote:> "Pastor

Dave" < SNAFU......@nowhere.com> wrote in

messagenews:mndg73t9livb1hh013rt9o6sebdbj8bpgm@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:28:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitf...@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is

deceiver and an antichrist."

The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read

"Jesus

www.geocities.com/fredstov...@sbcglobal.net/

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God

a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)

<)))))><

Preparing the way of the Lord.

-Another empty post by Freddie? I guess he still has nothing to say!

Pointing out that scripture says you're antichrist and heretics is an

empty

few

chosen of the many saved, but they accept Him after He returns (Zech

12:10)

palms

in their hands" (Rev. 7:9).

His,

-Freddie now says that Israel is the Church! So you do believe in
-Spiritual Israel?
ROTFL!!!!!
Still can't read, can you fool?
The enemy-of-the-gospel elect are the latter harvest, which when added to
the few chosen in the church makes the saved an innumerable multitude.
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	20 Jun 2007 09:01:18 AM

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:10:02 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:

Dave, I was reading through Rom 11, and was curious about vs 3 & 4!
As I read it, God promised Elijah to save a remnant, only 7000 men, of
which it was said that all of Israel was saved! Now apparently that
remnant was only a small portion of Israel, so how did it constitute
all of Israel! What happened to those who were not of the remnant?
Who were not saved!

Now Paul refers to this about Elijah and the remnant, in regards to
those Israelite in the day of Paul, and those who would be alive at
the fulfillment of the time of the Gentiles, that again had set aside
a remnant! Again if their is a remnant, that means that not all were
saved, only a portion! So how could Paul say all of Israel was saved,
when there were many in fact who were not? What became of those who
were not saved? What has become of all the national Israelites, who
have previously perished, even before this time? Are they not a part
of all Israel? Are they now lost and forgotten, condemned to the lake
of fire on Judgement day? We understand, that at the time Paul wrote
Romans, that the daily sacrifice was still being made in Jerusalem,
but since the daily sacrifice ceased in 70AD how have the Israelites
maintained their favored status with God! Those who have died,
without Christ, and without a daily sacrifice, how are they still part
of all of Israel? Will they also be saved on Judgement Day being part
of all of Israel?

It seems to me, before we can determine the nature of those who are in
the remnant, and what it means to be saved, and all to be saved, that
we must first figure out what it means to not be in the remnant! Then
we can begin to understand how all does not mean all, but a few!

That way when we look at Israel today and consider according to the
Dispensationalist version of the time of the Gentiles coming to a
close, then do we now also look for only a remnant to be saved!

It seems that when dealing with Romans 11:25-26,
Dispensationalists change the wording from, "AND SO",
to "AND THEN". This makes a big difference!
They are interpreting it as if it read, "and THEN all Israel
will be saved". But it doesn't say that and they are changing
the wording of the passage. (:
They read it as follows:
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And THEN all of national Israel is saved.
But to take it as if it read "and THEN", changed
the wording. The Dispensationalists knows this,
which is why they try to respond by arguing
that the wording doesn't make any difference.
Huh?!? The wording doesn't make any difference?!?
Translated, that means, "It doesn't matter what
the Bible actually says. My personal doctrine is
right, period and if the wording of the Bible gets
in the way, too bad! Believe me instead! I will!".
In reality, it says, "and SO". Now what does that
word "so" mean? It simply means, "in this manner".
What manner?
Romans 11:25-26a
25) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in
your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened
to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26a) And so all Israel will be saved...
Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (IN THIS MANNER), all Israel is saved.
It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then
God goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word
"then" is not there! It says "and so" ("and in this manner").
Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.
1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved!
And in this manner (way), all Israel is saved. That is what
the word "so" means. If you doubt this, look it up in the
original Greek.
So = Houto (G3779) - in this way
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	20 Jun 2007 12:32:05 PM

"Pastor Dave" <.....SNAFU.........@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:hebi73lcfcnr6b7do4gfm2oi3b3dpf2b2a@4ax.com...

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:10:02 -0700, gatekeeper

It seems that when dealing with Romans 11:25-26,
Dispensationalists change the wording from, "AND SO",
to "AND THEN". This makes a big difference!

Wrong Satan, even the folks who simply belief and have no other theology
read the book and here His voice, and laugh as you clowns try to figure it
out without Him. All Israel means All Israel, which is the folks who trust
in His promise. What you have is the church, the few chosen of the many
called, being saved at His coming, and the rest being saved later. When you
combine the remnant with the few chosen of the many called in the church you
find that the saved folks are an innumerable multitude: "After this I
beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all
nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and
before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" (Rev.
7:9).
<idiotic ramblings

Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!

1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (IN THIS MANNER), all Israel is saved.

It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then
God goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word
"then" is not there! It says "and so" ("and in this manner").

<Dereliction snipped>
ROTFL!!!!
Yes, Virginia, there are dingbats.
I know you're a little on the slow side, but you're confusing yourself with
another auxiliary word. You're showing folks you're an idiot again. The
"then, (subsequently, not at that time) comes from the other verses which
say that. The "so" refers to the Isaiah verse to which the Author refers:
"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness
from Jacob." The Lord saves them.:
It's the verse like Zech 12:10, which tell us they are saved after the Lord
returns, not the "so."

Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.

Right, the Lord saves them.

1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved!

Still trying to make the gospel-elect church saved when He comes into the
enemy-of-the-gospel elect saved after the fulness of the gentiles, the
church, enters.
YOU ARE AN IDIOT, SATAN!!!!!!
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "�andy"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	20 Jun 2007 01:58:07 PM

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:01:18 -0400,
in article <hebi73lcfcnr6b7do4gfm2oi3b3dpf2b2a@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:10:02 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spoke thusly:

It seems that when dealing with Romans 11:25-26,
Dispensationalists change the wording from, "AND SO",
to "AND THEN". This makes a big difference!

They are interpreting it as if it read, "and THEN all Israel
will be saved". But it doesn't say that and they are changing
the wording of the passage. (:

They read it as follows:

1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And THEN all of national Israel is saved.

But to take it as if it read "and THEN", changed
the wording. The Dispensationalists knows this,
which is why they try to respond by arguing
that the wording doesn't make any difference.

Huh?!? The wording doesn't make any difference?!?

Translated, that means, "It doesn't matter what
the Bible actually says. My personal doctrine is
right, period and if the wording of the Bible gets
in the way, too bad! Believe me instead! I will!".

In reality, it says, "and SO". Now what does that
word "so" mean? It simply means, "in this manner".

What manner?

Romans 11:25-26a

25) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in
your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened
to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26a) And so all Israel will be saved...

Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!

1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (IN THIS MANNER), all Israel is saved.

It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then
God goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word
"then" is not there! It says "and so" ("and in this manner").

Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.

1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved!

And in this manner (way), all Israel is saved. That is what
the word "so" means. If you doubt this, look it up in the
original Greek.

So = Houto (G3779) - in this way

Romans 11 clearly shows God will restore Israel when the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in. Throughout, this entire
chapter makes a stark contrast between the fulness of Israel,
and the fulness of the Gentiles. There is no way anyone who
allows the words of this chapter to sink in, can confuse
"Israel", with the "Gentiles" and Jews who are now being saved
into the church. Romans 11 blows preterist heresy away, so
they try to confuse Israel with the church, so as to deny any
restoration for Israel. This couldn't be a more clear and
perfect contradiction to the plain statements of Romans 11.
That the Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is not the church seems evident from the
following considerations:
1) At every point throughout Romans 11, the term "Israel" is
not only not a description of the church, or of Gentiles, but
is being contrasted to the Gentiles, and the church.
2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the
gospel (11:28). This is not referring to a group of people
who are getting saved during the time of the fullness of the
Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning the gospel. When
you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting saved, and
this is the condition of this "Israel" that "shall be saved"
(future), during the time of the fullness of the Gentiles.
3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is
an enemy of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a
reference to all the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were
getting saved, not only would they not be the "enemies" of the
gospel, but they would not continue to be contrasted with the
"your sakes" who are being saved, in the very explanation of
why they are enemies of the gospel.
4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.
5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in, is the elect Israel which God made
irrevocable covenants, gifts and promises to, and this is
national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23;
30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31;
37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21;
Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep. 3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom.
11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be fulfilled, when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20), which will not occur till the fulness of the Gentiles
"be come in" (past).
6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a
national Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the
plain, obvious statement of Scripture: "Give none offence,
neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of
God". --1 Corinthians 10:32. While it is true there is
neither Jew nor Gentile within the church, because all have
been made one in Christ, this does not change the status of
people who are not members of the church. Jews, Gentiles, and
the Church, are still three distinct groups of people.
7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions
in New Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and
one for the apostles (representative of the church):
Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates,
and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and
in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
That both national Israel and the church are part of the same
vine of faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there
remain two branches on the one vine.
Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.
In Romans 11:26, neither the interpretation "And so", nor "in
this manner" presents a problem to the interpretation this is
"Israel", not the church. It does not say "in the manner of
the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, all Israel shall be
saved". It says, "And so all Israel shall be saved", "as it
is written". The deliverer shall come out of Zion, to save
Israel, when the fulness of the Gentiles "be come in" (past),
"as it is written", not "in the manner of the fulness of the
Gentiles coming in".
Dave cuts off everything after the phrase "And so all Israel
will be saved", as if the "And so" refers back to the fulness
of the Gentiles coming in.
Fact is, that phrase "And so all Israel will be saved", is not
referring back to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, but
forward to the part where Dave snipped the text. And in what
manner, then, will all Israel be saved? Let's restore the
text to see:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob:
How will Israel be saved? In the manner "as it is written".
How is it written? It is written that the Deliverer will come
and turn away ungodliness from "Jacob"! And yes, "Jacob" is a
reference to Israel, the one with whom God made irrevocable
gifts, calling, and covenants! That did NOT happen in A.D.
70, when Dave claims the Lord came back to stomp Israel!
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away
their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the
fathers� sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Notice, it says they are "enemies" of the gospel! That is NOT
a reference to Gentiles and Jews who are currently being saved
into the church! People who are getting saved are not
"enemies" of the gospel!
That didn't happen in A.D. 70, folks! Israel is still in
partial blindness, as an enemy of the gospel, until the
fulness of the Gentiles be come in (past).
So, while Dave grand-stands about people saying it means "And
then", it doesn't change the outcome, since it is in the
manner "as it is written" about "Jacob" and the nation Israel,
that the enemy of the gospel Israel will be saved!
--
But godliness with contentment is great gain. - 1 Timothy 6:6
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
�2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	21 Jun 2007 02:02:46 PM

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or
anywhere in the Bible, for that matter), which indicates
"Israel" is a spiritual reference to the "church", or the time
of the "fullness of the Gentiles" with which it is constantly
contrasted throughout Romans. Galatians 6:16 shows that,
although Paul condemned Jewish legalizers, he wished peace on
those of national Israel ("Israel of God") who were truly
believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and") on those who
walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.

You're a flat out liar, Randy. And you know it.
"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
- Romans 9:6
Now if it's about national Israel, then why does Paul
say this? And why does he say in Galatians 3-4,
that those who look to what national Israel looked to,
would be "cast out", if God was going to save all of
national israel, no matter what?
And you know very well, that Galatians 3:16 does not
say what you claimed! You have already been refuted
and now pretend, as usual, that it never happened!
Galatians 6:15-16
15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the
Israel of God.
A national Israel that denies Christ, is not "of God"
and so, you PERSONALLY attempt to spit on the cross!
First Paul says that circumcision means NOTHING
and then says, "the Israel of God". Now if you're
right, then circumcision does mean something
and a nation that spits in Christ's face, is "of God".
Hmmm.... I don't think so!
You have nothing and you are a disgusting man,
who perverts the Gospel!
And btw, I'm sorry that in your other message,
you got so upset because I find things in the
Old testament, that show how statements are
symbolically used by God. I'm sorry if it upsets
you so much that I compare Scripture with
Scripture! I know how badly that Old Testament,
which is what the Apostles preached from btw,
upsets you. I'm sure you would be happy if
you could just tear it out of your Bible! You
don't, of course, because you know it would
be wrong and you wouldn't want anyone to
see that you did that.
The problem with you Randy, is that it never
occurs to you that you should then stop
criticizing people for comparing all of Scripture.
Your twisted mind and hateful heart convince
you that even though you know something
would be wrong, that it's right only for you
and that you should further twist Scripture
and quote it out of context to try to support
your sickness, like you did with some OT
passages which you took completely out of
context, while ignoring the NT passages that
showed you are wrong, altogether, while you
now hypocritically claim that I'm wrong for
seeing what Scriptures in the Old Testament
have to say about something.
You are a sad man, in need of a lot of prayer!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine is not Scripture.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	21 Jun 2007 07:03:17 PM

"Pastor Dave" <......SNAFU.....@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:16il731oh557su9vlidb0vjdou1h4fejct@4ax.com...

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

You're a flat out liar, Randy. And you know it.

No, Satan, you're the liar, and its been shown ervery day, day after day,
ever since you've come online and began spewing you blasphemy and lies.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
- Romans 9:6

Now if it's about national Israel, then why does Paul
say this?

Wrong, bigot, have you ever tried reading what He's saying instead of
picking out words you can use to say what you want to say? He is speaking of
the children of the promise being counted for seed, not only is He excluding
Ishmael, and Esau, but the natural and adopted Israel who are not trusting
in His promise. The natural and adopted Israel, who are trusting in His
promises to Israel are counted as children for seed. You don't and you're
not.
"And why does he say in Galatians 3-4,

that those who look to what national Israel looked to,
would be "cast out", if God was going to save all of
national israel, no matter what?

You have to be totally consumed by your hate and bigotry to read that into
the text. First of all, He makes it clear elsewhere that national Israel
never will be cast out: "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God
forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles"
(Rom 11:11), and that is a promise to their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob, not a promise to the progeny, who receive it: "they are beloved for
the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28). Secondly, he talking about casting out
anyone, he is refering to Abraham's casting out the bondwoman and Ishmael
(Gen 21:12), and telling us we're not children of the bondwoman.
What you seem to miss is He is addressing Christians who were also trusting
in the law. And their being told you trust in one or the other, is hardly
condemnation of national Israel.
It's interesting that you don't include Gal 5, which shows that the law is
still in effect for any of the elect who trust in their circumcision instead
of Christ. Their grace is the grace poured out upon Israel upon His return
(Zech 12:10), not the grace of Christ (Gal , which includes being free from
thye condemnation of the law.

And you know very well, that Galatians 3:16 does not
say what you claimed! You have already been refuted
and now pretend, as usual, that it never happened!

You snipped what he said, but it certainly doesn't correspond to anything
you've said.

Galatians 6:15-16

15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the
Israel of God.

In Christ refers to the people in Christ, and in the church we have no rite
or requirement of circumcision.

A national Israel that denies Christ, is not "of God"
and so, you PERSONALLY attempt to spit on the cross!

Your the one spiiting in the Lord's face and on the cross, Satan,
and there is no way you can make the gospel-elect-church the
enemy-of-the-gospel saved after the fulness of the gentiles have entered
(Rom 11:25-29, Zech 12:10).
His,
--
For 1600 years the Bible said: "For many deceivers are entering into the
world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a
deceiver and an antichrist."
The original Greek text of the Bible and the Vulgate tranlation read "Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh" because coming is in the present active
participle. The earliest versions that I've found to mistranslate the
present participle "is coming" as "is/has come," are the Douay-Rheims NT
(1582) and the King James (1611).
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "�andy"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	21 Jun 2007 11:59:19 PM

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:03:17 -0500,
in article <1DEei.21261$C96.1311@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote:

You snipped what he said, but it certainly doesn't correspond to anything
you've said.

In essence, his defense basically amounts to, "You just KNOW
I'm right, and that you should be ashamed".
--
But godliness with contentment is great gain. - 1 Timothy 6:6
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
�2007 www.pulpitfire.org
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	22 Jun 2007 01:19:47 AM

"�andy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7nlm73hd2maduolve8joc4lmvn56ultlut@4ax.com...

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:03:17 -0500,
in article <1DEei.21261$C96.1311@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
"Fred A Stover" <fredstover@email.com> wrote:

You snipped what he said, but it certainly doesn't correspond to anything
you've said.

In essence, his defense basically amounts to, "You just KNOW
I'm right, and that you should be ashamed".

You've hit the nail on the head: developmentally challenged, rougly the
equivalent to 18 months of age.
His,
--
www.geocities.com/fredstover7@sbcglobal.net/
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as
a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
<)))))><
Preparing the way of the Lord.
.

User: "�andy"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	21 Jun 2007 11:56:44 PM

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:02:46 -0400,
in article <16il731oh557su9vlidb0vjdou1h4fejct@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

You're a flat out liar, Randy. And you know it.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
- Romans 9:6

Now if it's about national Israel, then why does Paul
say this? And why does he say in Galatians 3-4,
that those who look to what national Israel looked to,
would be "cast out", if God was going to save all of
national israel, no matter what?

And you know very well, that Galatians 3:16 does not
say what you claimed! You have already been refuted
and now pretend, as usual, that it never happened!

Galatians 6:15-16

15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor
uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule,
peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the
Israel of God.

A national Israel that denies Christ, is not "of God"
and so, you PERSONALLY attempt to spit on the cross!

First Paul says that circumcision means NOTHING
and then says, "the Israel of God". Now if you're
right, then circumcision does mean something
and a nation that spits in Christ's face, is "of God".

Hmmm.... I don't think so!

You have nothing and you are a disgusting man,
who perverts the Gospel!

And btw, I'm sorry that in your other message,
you got so upset because I find things in the
Old testament, that show how statements are
symbolically used by God. I'm sorry if it upsets
you so much that I compare Scripture with
Scripture! I know how badly that Old Testament,
which is what the Apostles preached from btw,
upsets you. I'm sure you would be happy if
you could just tear it out of your Bible! You
don't, of course, because you know it would
be wrong and you wouldn't want anyone to
see that you did that.

The problem with you Randy, is that it never
occurs to you that you should then stop
criticizing people for comparing all of Scripture.
Your twisted mind and hateful heart convince
you that even though you know something
would be wrong, that it's right only for you
and that you should further twist Scripture
and quote it out of context to try to support
your sickness, like you did with some OT
passages which you took completely out of
context, while ignoring the NT passages that
showed you are wrong, altogether, while you
now hypocritically claim that I'm wrong for
seeing what Scriptures in the Old Testament
have to say about something.

You are a sad man, in need of a lot of prayer!

You have convinced me of nothing, except that you can look
right at a passage that clearly, in no ambiguous terms,
contrasts Israel with the Gentiles, then insist "Israel" is
the church, just to maintain your preterist lies.
And what is your rebuttal? You do almost nothing but try to
shame and belittle anyone who doesn't agree with you. You're
the one sad and in need of prayer.
--
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit,
sisters and brothers. Amen. - Galatians 6:18
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
�2007 www.pulpitfire.org

.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: And So All Israel Will Be Saved!	21 Jun 2007 01:41:53 PM

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:58:07 -0500, �andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> spoke thusly:

Some preterists argue that the phrase "And so", in Romans
11:26, should be translated "thus", or "in this manner", and
therefore means the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, is the
manner in which "Israel" (which they claim means the Gentiles,
or the Church), shall be saved. This couldn't be a more clear
and perfect contradiction to everything Romans 11 says.

I feel so bad for you, that you are so desperate
to believe that it's all about those not in the church,
that you have to twist the words of Scripture and
the words that people say.
No one said that "it is all about the Gentiles and
that's what Israel being saved means". That is
your straw man.
The truth is, that what I said about what you
and other Futurists argue is true. You did read
it as "and then", instead of "and so", which you
NOW know DOES mean, "in this manner".
But instead of confessing this, you claim that
it is no problem and act as if it never mattered,
even though you made that exact argument.
Sad.
The truth is, that it is the combination of Jews
and Gentiles that made up "all israel".
You then tried in the past, to argue that this
couldn't be true, because more Gentiles are
still coming in, which shows that it's you
who focused on the Gentiles alone. The
reality is, that if we believe as you do, then
"all israel" can NEVER be saved, because
there is always more Jews and more Gentiles
being saved and so, your doctrine puts it off
forever and this shows that you lame twisting
of what I have said, which you do each and
every time is just that... lame.

Fact is, that phrase "And so all Israel will be saved", is not
referring back to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in, but
forward to the part where Dave snipped the text. And in what
manner, then, will all Israel be saved? Let's restore the
text to see:

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There
shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel, Jacob, etc.. Interchangeable terms.

How will Israel be saved? In the manner "as it is written".
How is it written? It is written that the Deliverer will come
and turn away ungodliness from "Jacob"! And yes, "Jacob" is a
reference to Israel, the one with whom God made irrevocable
gifts, calling, and covenants! That did NOT happen in A.D.
70, when Dave claims the Lord came back to stomp Israel!

Sorry son, but you don't get to define what
goes where. "And so" refers to what was said
and what was said, is seen in vs25-26.
Paul is saying that in the manner described,
all Israel would be saved and then confirms
it by quoting part of an Old Testament passage
about "Jacob". I'll give you a hint. It's found
in Isaiah. You really should read all of the
Old Testament. You might learn something.
And if you wish to talk about snipping verses,
you could have quoted v27, which says...
"For this is My covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."
That is done in Christ. And if you want to
believe that that is about national Israel,
instead of those in Christ, you go right
ahead and believe that.
the true Israel now, is the church, as Gal 6:15-16
teaches us, even though you tried to deny that
and that argument was also refuted. But you
can do as you always do and pretend that never
happened and paste your old argument in again,
because that is what you always do.
And isn't it sad that you keep adjusting your
arguments in an effort to get around what
I say and then pretend that it doesn't matter
anyway, each time your claim are refuted
and another Futurist argument is torn down
and furthermore pretend that you haven't
been doing that, when we can all see how
your arguments have changed over time,
because of the fact that have been presented.
But you believe whatever makes you feel good.
You always do.
You remind me of what Paul told the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 3:7-18
7) But if the ministry of death, written and engraved
on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel
could not look steadily at the face of Moses because
of the glory of his countenance, which glory was
passing away,
8) how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more
glorious?
9) For if the ministry of condemnation had glory,
the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more
in glory.
10) For even what was made glorious had no glory
in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11) For if what is passing away was glorious, what
remains is much more glorious.
12) Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great
boldness of speech,
13) unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that
the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end
of what was passing away.
Note: What was passing away and did pass away.
It was temporary, but the Spirit is what is permanent.
14) But their minds were blinded. For until this day
the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the
Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in
Christ.
15) But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil
lies on their heart.
16) Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil
is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is THE SPIRIT; and where THE SPIRIT
of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror
the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same
image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
It is the Spirit that matters and those in the Spirit.
And you still, just like the Jews did and most still
do, read the Old Testament Scriptures with the
veil on, awaiting a physical Messiah to set up a
physical kingdom on Earth, for the Jews.
It is no wonder that you are so lost in a false doctrine!
--
Pastor Dave
Expand and go out into the ocean of your faith.
God doesn't do His deepest work in the shallowest
part of the water.
The world says that seeing is believing.
The Bible says that believing is seeing.
Doctrine i