| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Timothy Sutter" |
| Date: |
10 Oct 2003 11:14:56 AM |
| Object: |
Annie's playpen |
a small child is to be adopted.
the adoptive parents come into the
orphanage and tell the child that
it is to be adopted.
this buoys the child's spirit.
the overseers and handlers at the
orphanage see this buoyed sense
and persecute the small child.
life in the orphanage is already,
somewhat, harsh but the overseers
and handlers take a special attention
to increase the sufferings of
this small child who is
to be adopted.
the adoptive parents come into the
orphanage and separate out this one
child and present it with a playpen
and give that child a free space
to play in,
a free space that none of the other
children have and also a free space
where the handlers are also
restricted in their movements.
the child is taken from the
orphanage and given a room
of its own with nice food
and clothing and big wheels
to play with.
none of the other children are
adopted, and so, the small child
feels different when it sees and
interacts with the other children.
that child says;
"i don't want the parents who
have adopted me and treated
me kindly, i want to be like
all the rest of the children
and go back to the orphanage
and eat gruel and get whipped
buy the handlers."
"it may be harsh, but at least,
i won't be different anymore"
but this child -is- peculiar
in the sense that it wants to go
back to the orphanage, and also,
keep the Name of the adoptive parents.
this because the Name carries with it
a certain respectability that the
child can use in the orphanage.
the other children in the orphanage
have heard of the Name of the adoptive
parents and they respect that name
because they know that those parents
rescued that child from the harsh
cruelty of the orphanage.
i think there are some additions
to be made to this story, but
time for ovalteen,...
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 04:49:56 PM |
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Jesus on the cross,
what exactly does he say?
"Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani"
you've seen this translated as
"my God my God, why have
you forsaken me?"
but this is a rather
poor translation.
one of the reasons this statement
is left as an aramaic transliteration
is because it borders on idiomatic
usage and there is no very good
translation into the greek.
example of "idiom" being;
"you've opened up another
can or worms with your
comments here"
where, "opened up a can of worms"
is not to be translated directly
into another language, because there
is no can of worms anywhere, but
only your comments.
hold that thought.
look;
at the very worst, a direct translation
for "Lama Sabachthani" might say;
"how long will you leave me alone"
another possible translation might say;
"how long till i am free"
those are, at least, closer to the
character of Jesus, closer to the
character Jesus has already
portrayed in the past.
not and never, "why have you forsaken?"
but, if you look at what
else Jesus says, you can
see how an idomatic usage
come in to focus;
"how long till this is over"
it's as if Jesus is looking at
his watch and wondering aloud,
"how much longer will this take"
and then, he answers himself and says;
"it is over"
"it is done"
"it is finished"
and in comparison with Psalm 22,
psalm 22:21
David writes, "you have heard me"
or, "you have answered me"
so, it's poor to translate the
beginning of that psalm as
"why have you forsaken me?"
"why have you left me alone?"
"why have you -not- heard me?"
and then the middle
of the psalm says,
"you have heard me"
so, as they say,
sometimes things are
lost in the translation.
but not this time;
Jesus was -not- saying;
"oh God why have you left me alone
to die up here all by myself?"
it's just extremely out of
character for the person
who said;
"i know you always hear me?"
and so, aside from aligning
himself with David,
Jesus is merely asking himself,
"how much longer?"
and then he answers and says;
"it's over"
take it as you will.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 05:06:41 PM |
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Jesus is merely asking himself,
"how much longer?"
but we don't deny that Jesus had a hedge
around him just like Job and just like
Israel -should- have maintained.
-----
Psalm 91:12
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:6
and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God,
throw Yourself down. For it is written: "He
shall give His angels charge over you,' and,
"In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest
you dash your foot against a stone."'
John 10:39
Therefore they sought again to seize Him,
but He escaped out of their hand.
Job 1:10
Have You not made a hedge around him, around
his household, and around all that he has on
every side? You have blessed the work of his
hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Psalm 80:12
Why have You broken down her hedges, So that
all who pass by the way pluck her fruit?
-----
so, Jesus protected, as it were, because
there was an appropriate time for everything.
and then, Jesus lets the protection down
without a word, makes no complaints and
says nothing in his own defense.
but still, he says;
"how long till this is finished?"
says this to Pilate;
--
John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You could have no power
at all against Me unless it had been
given you from above.
--
had previously said this to ears;
--
John 8:23
And He said to them, "You are from beneath;
I am from above. You are of this world; I
am not of this world.
--
he just did a thing that had to be done.
etc...
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 05:29:32 PM |
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--
John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You could have no power
at all against Me unless it had been
given you from above.
John 8:23
And He said to them, "You are from beneath;
I am from above. You are of this world; I
am not of this world.
--
at the very worst, a direct translation
for "Lama Sabachthani" might say;
"how long till i am free"
it's like Pilate says;
"don't you know i have the power
to crucify you or set you free?"
and Jesus says;
"you only have the power
over me that i gave you"
and "how long till i am free"
is a perfectly good, literal
rendering of "Lama Sabachthani"
no liberties taken there.
it's just if you think about it,
it's as if Jesus is saying;
"how long till this is finished?"
to which he -answers-;
"it is finished"
Jesus lifted up the hedge,
laid down his life, and
took it back up again.
and now human beings can enter in to
that free space that the Truth Is.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 05:33:27 PM |
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and Jesus says;
"you only have the power
over me that i gave you"
and "how long till i am free"
is a perfectly good, literal
rendering of "Lama Sabachthani"
after all, Jesus is nailed
to a board at the time.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 09:11:25 PM |
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and Jesus says;
"you only have the power
over me that i gave you"
and "how long till i am free"
is a perfectly good, literal
rendering of "Lama Sabachthani"
after all, Jesus is nailed
to a board at the time.
also, you could just as easily
render "Lama Sabachthani"
"how long till -they- leave me alone?"
"lama sabachthani"
"how long let alone"
it's just that "sabach" means "free"
so it's like "let alone" in
the sense of "let me be"
but "why forsake" just doesn't fit.
and how in the world -could- it be even
conceivable to anyone that God -would-
'forsake' a human being in whom God
is well pleased?
and then Jesus turns around and says;
"forgive -them-" ?
-i- 'doubt' -that- very much.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 09:22:38 PM |
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so it's like "let alone" in
the sense of "let me be"
but "why forsake" just doesn't fit.
-i- 'doubt' -that- very much.
it's possible that back in Elizabethan england,
"forsake" meant "let me be"
like you have greta garbo saying;
"i vant to be forsaken"
only she didn't mean like;
"i vant to be cast into the outer darkness"
she meant like;
"i vant to be free to pursure my interests in peace."
so then "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani" is;
"I am God I am God, I am Free"
and it is not at all a plaintive wail,
but a triumphant victory call.
from the Cross.
The Wisdom of God.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 09:28:19 PM |
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so then "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani" is;
"I am God I am God, I am Free"
a triumphant victory call.
from the Cross.
The Wisdom of God.
and -this- completely ties together
with the way -the Apostles- viewed
the Cross.
not as a defeat but as a Victory.
like,...you -knew- that, but now,
it's that much clearer.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 09:41:47 PM |
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so then "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani" is;
"I am God I am God, I am Free"
a triumphant victory call.
from the Cross.
The Wisdom of God.
and -this- completely ties together
with the way -the Apostles- viewed
the Cross.
not as a defeat but as a Victory.
like,...you -knew- that, but now,
it's that much clearer.
and it cannot be any other way, when you
have the guy, Jesus, saying beforehand;
--
Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man
must suffer many things, and be rejected by the
elders and chief priests and scribes, and be
killed, and after three days rise again.
Mark 10:34
and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and
spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day
He will rise again."
--
you realize it was his stated purpose.
the Cross is the greatest Victory for mankind.
appreciate it.
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| User: "Timothy Sutter" |
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| Title: Re: "it's over" |
11 Oct 2003 09:56:16 PM |
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i mentioned the adoption before, but
i just didn't feel like belaboring the
point of the ingratitude of Israel.
Israel is no worse and no better
than any other set of human beings.
all are ungrateful.
but, when you see thru the
eyes of Jesus Christ, you
get grateful really fast.
i'm working on hitting ten trillion
before i run out of breath, but,
here goes;
Thank You Jesus
well, ten trillion may be a little
beyond my reach, but we'll see.
every breath is like a "thank you Jesus"
.
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