"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fv06u0hj84rb2c74arbc77hhua2s6h53t9@4ax.com...

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:34:35 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "CDumont" <cdumont@telusplanet.net>
pontificated:

"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kq45u0duskhvj24nue4ip44h40bcoo6f93@4ax.com...

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 03:55:52 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "CDumont" <cdumont@telusplanet.net>
pontificated:

"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rdk2u0po5s2meur8dlg9pcmm58ppjup0l8@4ax.com...

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 06:31:17 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "CDumont" <cdumont@telusplanet.net>
pontificated:

According to the Scriptures Jesus will return within the generation of
the
fig tree, which started in 1948 and will end in 2018. Matt.24:34. God
bless

Actually, Jesus never said, "in the generation of the
fig tree".

I n verse 32 Jesus said, now learn the parable of the fig tree, have
you
learned it? thats the generation he was talking about in verse 34, If
you
want i'll teach it to you. God bless

I know what the popular idea is. Jesus however, did
not use the word "generation" there. Nor did He say,
"This is what I mean when I say, "this generation".
Reading through the chapter clearly shows that He was
speaking to those standing in front of Him. Jesus
simply used the example of a fig tree to demonstrate
what He was saying. If you disagree, then please
explain the following statement, in which Jesus says
that He will come in judgment and His kingdom, before
all of the Apostles died...

Matthew 16:27-28

27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some STANDING HERE,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.

There is no word "generation" to play with in those
passages.

Pastor;
It is very important to follow the subject and the object in the
Scripturs, in chapter 24, the subject is end time prophecy,verse 3. tell
us
when shall these things be? and what shall be the signs of thy coming, and
of the end of the world.

Actually, you are mistaken. The Greek word there
means, "age", not world. The Greek word for the globe
of the Earth is "kosmos". The word here is, "aeon",
which means, "an age". They are asking when the end of
the age is, not the end of the planet.

It is not i that is mistaken, that is whats written in the Bible,
actually it's world age, did you know that we are now in the second world
age? do you know that we were all in the first world age?

It is clear that the Apostles thought that the end
would come in their lifetime and that Jesus gave them
this idea. You would be forced to claim that Jesus let
them think this, because He didn't want them to be lazy
about their faith. But wait a minute... it would
still be a lie for Jesus to make them think it was
going to happen in their lifetime and that they needed
to be on guard, if He was really talking about some
future generation in Matthew 24 (as people like you are
forced to claim) and not about the current generation.
Isn't a lie a lie? Do we worship a God that lies?
Heaven forbid! "Let God be true and every man a liar".
Why don't you apply that here? And what about when the
Bible says that "God is not a man, that He should lie"?
The fact is, that when speaking in Matthew 24, Jesus
discussed the Temple standing there in front of them
and if He wanted them to think of some other
generation, then He wouldn't have said, "YOU", but
rather, "THEY", when He spoke of the generation that
would see the things He discussed. That's just plain
common sense.

There are still many stones standing, when Jesus comes there will not be
one stone in Jerusalem, because thats where the millinum Temple will be
acording to Ezekiel.

I.e., get yourself out of the 21st century and read it
as if you were a first century Jew. This is the
problem. Atheists point at Christians and laugh,
because while they claim to be taking it literally,
they play word games with Mat 24:34 and the word,
"generation". It's a contradiction to claim it is a
literal chapter and then claim that "this generation"
doesn't mean exactly what it says. So either Jesus was
wrong, or, His words aren't all meant literally, which
is obvious to anyone who is familiar with the Old
Testament and its use of picture language, such as when
Ezekiel prophesied about Egypt, which was fulfilled in
the past and talked about the Sun and Moon going dark
and God riding on a cloud in judgment. Yet you would
ignore that, or try to talk around it, since they
didn't see God physically riding on a cloud. Why?
That is inconsistent and hypocritical. You would have
to try to claim that a fulfilled prophecy did not take
place yet, when any Bible student with half a brain
would know that it is a prophecy that was fulfilled a
long time ago.

You are trying to fit something where it just does'nt fit, verse 32 his
branch, thats the tribe of Judah, is yet tender and putteth forth leaves,
when it becomes a nation, that happened in 1948, ye know that summer is
near, summer is harvest time, the harvest of the souls, Jer. explains more
if your interested, this generation refers to what he had just said.

Do yourself a favor and try reading Matthew 24 again
and note the use of the word "YOU" and see if it makes
sense (especially in light of vs 1-2 & v34) to think
that it meant some future generation. Put aside your
problem with some of the passages for now, due to your
thinking He was being literal in all of them and just
read it to see if it makes sense to say "YOU", instead
of "THEY" in that chapter, if He is speaking of some
future generation. Once again, do not go back to the
"He didn't want them to be lazy about their faith
argument". That is covered above. The simple fact is,
that if I said to you that you should watch for
something, you would start watching. You wouldn't be
expecting some generation 2,000 years from now to be
the ones who should watch for it.

I say to you refers to the people he was talkin to and to the people who
read it today, note that he did not say, i say to you, your generation, if
he meant them he would have said your generation.

You would also know that I was talking about you, in
the sentence that I just typed, which said, "If I said
to YOU...". Do you see what I'm saying? Why do the
rules of common sense in language go out the window for
you, when it comes to the words of Jesus and the
Apostles? Did Jesus say that we should become blind to
common sense in understanding what the word "YOU"
means? Of course not.

When He told the Pharisees that they were hypocrites,
did He mean the Pharisees of the 21st century? Of
course not. And how many people, when studying the
text in Matthew 24 fail to note the following passages,
which come just before Matthew 24, which provide the
context for Matthew 24? Read these passages from
Matthew 23 and note the following...

1) Who is Jesus talking TO?

2) Who is Jesus talking ABOUT?

3) WHERE is He talking about?

4) WHERE WAS HE when He said these things (the answer
is in Mat 24:1)?

5) THEN read Matthew 24:2 & 34 and see what comes to
light.

I have added some caps to the text, to highlight
certain things. Please read it carefully and slowly.

Matthew 23:29-39

29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish
the sepulchres of the righteous,
30) And say, If WE had been in the days of OUR fathers,
we would not have been partakers with them in the blood
of the prophets.
31) Wherefore YE be witnesses unto YOURSELVES, that YE
are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32) Fill YE up then the measure of YOUR fathers.
33) YE serpents, YE GENERATION of vipers, how can YE
escape the damnation of hell?
34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and
wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill
and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your
synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35) That upon YOU may come all the righteous blood shed
upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto
the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE slew
between the temple and the altar.
36) Verily I say unto you, ALL THESE THINGS shall come
upon THIS GENERATION.
37) O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, THOU that killest the
prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto THEE,
how often would I have gathered THY children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and YE WOULD NOT!
38) Behold, YOUR HOUSE is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the
name of the Lord.

Answers to questions asked above.

1) The Scribes and Pharisees.

2) The generation present at the time He said it
(verses 31-33).

3) Jerusalem (v37).

4) In the Temple in Jerusalem (v38).

Note the fact that Jesus says He is talking about
Jerusalem and the use of "this generation". Also note
that Matthew 24:1 tells us that Jesus was in the Temple
when He said this. Thus, we know "house = temple".
Now go on and read the passages I noted previously
(Matthew 24:1-2 & 34) and see how it reads.

And of course, what happened? Read up on 70 A.D..

You may not think that those things didn't happen in 70
A.D., but they did. But hey, since you believe it to
be literal, let's try your belief out...

Chapter 23 has noting to do with chapter 24,

the subject in Chapter 24 is
very clear in verse 3.
When shall these things be?
What shall be the signs of thy coming? and i already answered those.

Stars falling from heaven...

Matthew 24:29-30

29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give
her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the
clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I think we can agree that v30 comes after v29. :)

I think we can also agree that Jesus is describing the
events in v30 as coming after v29, by the use of the
words, "And then...".

Now, the first thing to understand, is that a star
could not fall to Earth. A star is many times bigger
than the Earth and if anything, the Earth would get
sucked into its gravitational pull and not vice versa.
But assuming that it could happen and a star struck the
Earth, it would disintegrate the Earth (this would
actually happen before it even got close to the Earth).
In other words, the Earth would be gone, gone, gone.

Now that we have established basic scientific fact,
tell me, how will there be any tribes left on the
Earth, which wouldn't even be here, to mourn (v30)?
You need to explain that one to me, under your literal
approach to Matthew 24.

Verse 29 does come before verse 30, first the seven year tribulation of
the antichrist [satan] and the image of the beast [ the united nation, or
one world gov.] of course you know that the seven years was cut down to five
months for the sake of the elects. The stars are the angels, Jesus is coming
with his angels, you can read more about it in Rev. The sun shall be
darkened, it will look darker because of the brightness of Jesus.

And just so you know, I will not accept a response that
says it's meteorites.

1) You claim literalism in the text.

2) Jesus said "stars".

3) If He meant meteorites, he could have said, "burning
rocks", or something to that effect. He didn't, so it
is stars and NOT meteorites. That is simply an attempt
to get around the text that you claim is LITERAL.

You also forget what Jesus said...

"Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

Why don't you take that literally?

Let's look at a couple more verses from Matthew 24, in
light of the above...

Matthew 24:1-2,15-16,20

1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple:
and his disciples came to him for to show him the
buildings of the temple.
2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these
things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left
here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown
down.

Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple
and the surrounding area. He pointed at a temple that
was standing. He said, "Do you see THESE THINGS?".

That destruction happened in 70 A.D.. But you think
that the Apostles should have skipped that one and
waited thousands of years for another temple?


15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of
desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16) Then let them which be in Judea flee into the
mountains:

Let them IN JUDAEA flee to the mountains. Now why
would He specify Judaea and tell them to flee to the
mountains, if it was a global event and the stars were
going to fall to the Earth? What good would it do?


20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on the sabbath day:

Pray ye that your flight be not in winter, because harvest is in summer,
if you are harvested in winter you are not ready. It actully won't help for
anybody to run anywhere, it's just a figure of speech. Now pay close
attention, when we see Jesus coming down with his angels we will not be in
our flesh body, we will all be phisicaly dead, we will be in our spiritual
body, and that will happen in the twinkling of an eye.1 Co.15:51-52. I know
that did not happen in 70 A.D.

Why would He tell them to pray that it wasn't on a
Sabbath day? Easy, because during the Sabbath, they
could only walk about 3/4 mile and that wouldn't be far
enough to avoid what was happening to Jerusalem.

But let's assume for a moment that it is speaking of
Him coming to Earth. Is it a literal statement, as in
a visual event for humans to visually see Him coming to
Earth in the clouds? After all, you claim it is
literal, so let's check and see if it is. You demand
proof that these events already happened, because we
haven't visually seen Jesus riding a cloud, coming to
Earth. Okay, so be it, but you call God a liar.

The following are PAST events and fulfilled prophecy...

"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1

Did they see the Lord riding on a cloud?

Did the idols move?

Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?

How about this one, which is a Psalm of David, AFTER
God delivered him from his enemies?

Psalm 18:9,14

9) He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and
darkness was under his feet.
14) Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them;
and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

Did God literally "bow the heavens"?

Did God literally and visually "come down"?

Did He have "darkness under His feet"?

Did God literally "send out arrows"?

Did God literally "shoot out lightnings" to defeat
David's enemies?

Neither of these (and there are more) are literal
statements, yet you wish to take Matthew 24:30
literally. Why not then take those passages in the Old
Testament literally?

Now I do expect a response that deals with the texts
that I've quoted and the questions I've asked. As the
rules state, just quoting other passages does not do
the trick.

The rest of the chapter explains the signs of his
coming and the time of is coming, not the day or the hour but the
generation, if you like i could explain every verse.

The subject is Jerusalem and Judaea, not the world.

Subject in verse 3 and of the end of the WORLD.[ this world age]

Chapter 16 has noting to do with end time prophecy,the subject is in
verse 21, how that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the
elders and chief priest and scribes, and be KILLED, and be raised again
the
third day. verse 27 For the son of man shall come in the glory of his
father
with his angels, thats Heaven. Most of the people he was talking to were
there when he was killed and went to his glory, Heaven, except Judah, as
far
as i know he's the only one that was not there. God bless

You are trying to play dodge ball. It doesn't say that
it is about when He goes to Heaven. It says that He
will come, not that He will go. It His talking about
His return, not His departure.

Matthew 16:27-28

27) For the Son of man shall COME in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every
man according to his works.

The Son of Man shall COME...

The Greek word is erchomai, and it means to come or to go, in this case
it's to go, because the glory of his father is not here it's in Heaven.

This speaks of His return.


Reward every man...

This is judgment. You cannot say that He will reward
every man according to his works and then claim that He
is not speaking about judging.

He is not talking about judgment, he is talking about his elect, they
were judged in the first world age, the second death has no power over them,
there names are written in the book of life, when he died the doors of
Heaven were open.

28) Verily I say unto you, There be some STANDING HERE,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.

The Son of Man will come IN HIS KINGDOM BEFORE some of
the people STANDING THERE die. It's a very simple,
very clear statement.

And there is no word "generation" to play with in those
passages.

If you need more help with your studies let me know. God bless