ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Bible Believer"
Date:	21 Jan 2007 12:52:33 PM
Object:	ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???

On 20 Jan 2007 14:49:17 -0800, "u2fan"
<isaiah6517@googlemail.com> claimed:
I came across this post from "u2fan" and it seems
to me, to be an example of exactly what I have
been saying about the general Futurist view of
the world. They think the Bible is all about them
today and the physical world, failing to see the
symbolism involved and so, instead of working
for peace, they figure it's all gonna end anyway,
so why bother trying, even though that attitude
contradicts the teaching of our Lord. (:
And so, for these folks, who believe that Jesus
has yet to return, it becomes a matter of war,
since when they say, "Come Lord", they mean,
"Bring on Armageddon! Yea!". (:
Take a look at this post. Because he doesn't see
what he wants to see ON EARTH, he thinks there
is no hope, so bring on Armageddon, he says!

I know a lot of people who it appears are just
waiting to die. I.e. they have nothing to live for,
they ask themselves, "what have I to live for"
and nothing comes back, no hope, no future,
nothing, no self worth/esteem, many are in
their twenties and thirties having failed relationships,
either divorced, messed up or never got started.
Even at that age it seems as if life is all over,
what they wanted in life didn't happen and they
have no expections it ever will.

I ponder to the Lord "why are so many people
I know like this" is there hope for them?

Could it be because they aren't in the Lord?
So why not bring the Gospel to them, instead
of acting miserable just like them?

They seem resigned to just existing day to day
with very low expections of anything good
coming along, many are Christians many were
and others never have been.

How do you know that many are Christians?
If they are, then maybe the problem is the
same one you have. You look around and
because you want it to be all about you
and your physical world and because you
see war and problems, etc., you think that
there is no hope. That's because your hope
rests in the flesh, son! But Jesus told us
repeatedly not to rest our hope in this world
and that in this world, what we would have
is trouble, period! The joy described in
the Bible comes from God and is within us,
not outside of us. And that is where joy
and contentment come from and our peace
comes from being in Christ, not from what
you see around you!
"These things I have spoken unto you, that
in me ye might have peace. In the world ye
shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world." - John 16:33
1 John 1:3-4
3) That which we have seen and heard declare
we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship
with us: and truly our fellowship is with the
Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4) And these things write we unto you,
that your joy may be full.
Philippians 4:11-13
11) Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have
learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be
content.
12) I know both how to be abased, and I know
how to abound: every where and in all things
I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry,
both to abound and to suffer need.
13) I can do all things through Christ which
strengtheneth me.
Write about these things, instead of doom and
trying to convince people that Armageddon is
their only hope, because you think it has yet
to come and will end the world!

Some were "on track" with "the system" being
successful in career and family, yet it all fell apart,
divorce and depression and debt. They just exist
in the ever increasing pile of "rejects" those that
don't make the grade in life. One could be very
depressed about the situation some blame
"the system" and society as being a very much
"disposable society" you're either 100% or nothing
at all.

Christ does not "dispose of us" and what society
thinks is irrelevant. So why do you worry about
that and act as if it is something that others
should be stressed out over?

Religion offers no hope since it is all talk and
no action, the world offers no hope since everyone
is "trying to survive" under hyper inflation in
housing market and greed.

Religion is not about "inflation problems".
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and
the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and
widows in their affliction, and to keep himself
unspotted from the world." - James 1:27
My question is, why do you separate Christians
from religion? You talk about how Christians
are depressed, because religion isn't doing
anything. But isn't the religion made up of
the Christians? And so, if religion isn't doing
anything, that means that it is the Christians
that aren't doing anything and so, they have
only themselves to blame.
Now if you feel that Christians aren't doing
anything to help, then why don't you start
preaching about that? But preach from your
own experience. DO SOMETHING! THEN
you can complain about what people aren't
doing!
But no... instead, YOU claim that what we
need is absolute destruction! (:

I have pondered other options but the options like
the people are exhausted.

So Christians could do something, like spread the
Gospel and help other people, but they don't and
so you figure there are no options? Huh?!?

I see allot of stressed out folk working a lot harder
for relativley a lot less than folk 10 or 20 years ago.
Combined with population explosion and sinful nature,
disaster is ahead.

In their careers if they have one they are over worked
and endlessly pressurised to do more and more for less
and less (a nasty side effect of globalisation).

Welcomes to the work force! So help by showing
good work ethics and let God take care of what
you have and don't have.

Politicians dream of a new world order, which is
a fantasy that will never happen since it is not
based openly on God but human wisdom.

Politicians are living in a fantasy world denying
the human sinful nature of greed and selfishness,
folk want the cheapest or the best for the minimum
cost hence the endless pressure for the producers,
globalisation means creating "balance" so one day
where ever in the world there is similar standard
of life, for the west it means destruction of wealth,
for the poorer nations it means slave labour.

So because the politicians didn't save you,
you're upset? Why should anyone's hope
be placed in politicians? Isn't Jesus our Lord?
We are to pray for our leaders. God said that
if His people prayed, that He would heal their
nation!
"If my people, which are called by my name,
shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek
my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive
their sin, and will heal their land." - 2 Chron 7:14
Oh, but wait, that's right... according to YOU,
there are NO options left! (:

I wonder what is the solution to the problem,
so many relatively young (and others older)
folk living a meaningless and hopeless life,
failures in life having destroyed all expectations.

There are many solutions "make the most
of every day" (positive) "it could be worse"
(depressive response) "end it all" (better
leave it up to God).

So we come to the other option WW3 and nuclear war,
it would put an end to the suffering for many folk yet
many others would suffer.

It all depends:

1) Do you suffer throughout the rest of your life
for 40-50 more years

Or...

2) Suffer a few months and die from starvation and
anarchy and illnesses (red/black/pale horses)

As long as heaven awaits obviously the shorter time
of suffering is ideal.

One could conclude satan is doing us a favour with
WW3 and the end of the world, since it puts an end
to the continual suffering.

So now a third world war is the best option, with
nuclear war and people suffering and in agony
and starving to death? All so you don't have to
feel down about life, huh?
And what about all those that could have heard
the Gospel and didn't?

I was looking for another option for my friends, but
the system is against them as is the sinful nature.

So in other words, because people have a sinful nature,
we should all just give up and do our best to bring on
a nuclear world war. Gotcha. (:

Try as they may to make a sucessful and happy life

"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,
saith the LORD of hosts." - Zech 4:6b

they fail hence Armageddon is the prefered option.

So because your friends have failed, Armageddon
is preferred, which according to you, would be
WWIII and would mean the destruction of this
planet, with people suffering in agony for months,
while starving to death? You are one sick dude!!!

Hopefully after this life there is heaven (for many
it is pretty miserable now)

Hopefully?

In heaven there is no sin, no suffering, no oppression,
no economy, no money, only LOVE peace and paradise
and perfect health mentally and physically.

And while Christians are here on this Earth,
it is our duty to do what we can to put up
with the things that happen and spread
the Gospel and help people, showing them
God's love and not just talking about it.

I conclude Armageddon is the only way forward, since
there are too many people too much sin and too many
problems, the new world order is a fanstasy that cannot
exist, even when it does come along the 666 system is
fatal also.

Like I said... you have placed your trust in man
and in this world, instead of in Christ and in Heaven,
which will be the eternal home of all believers and
not Earth.

People sin too much, there is no paradise on earth,
the only option is to seperate the sinner from the
righteous and create heaven and hell.

There IS HOPE but not on this side of heaven.

According to the word of God, you're wrong!
"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen
is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he
yet hope for?" - Romans 8:24

Armageddon is the only option left.

No, that's not true. There is prayer and Christians
getting off their butts! Giving money is a wonderful
thing, but that's not all it is! DOING SOMETHING
TO HELP is part of it too! If Christians stop talking
and start doing, things can and will change!

Genesis 6 God was forced to implement the flood
for similar reasons. It would appear when there
is a critical mass of people disaster is ahead.
Over population and the sinful nature is a very messy
conclusion, making it go nuclear would hasten the
return of the Lord, and he will sort out the mess.
Humans never know when too much is too much.

The Earth is not over-populated. You can fit
everyone on the planet within the borders of
Jacksonville, FL. You couldn't move, but the
point is, there's plenty of room out there, so
if it's crowded where you live and you don't
like that... move!
Now I'm sorry if this came across as harsh,
but I have a real problem with Futurists
who think like this and this type of thinking
can only come from a Futurist perspective!
It isn't about you and your physical world,
so GET OVER YOURSELF, SON!!! Start
serving God, by worshipping Him, praying
to Him in worship and for others and even
for yourself and go out and help people
and help make things different!
--
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
.

User: "Bible Believer"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	22 Jan 2007 01:40:11 PM

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 00:50:22 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:51:24 -0800,
in article <kkb7r2plp0csqm139lmknt5sq5hgisjj89@4ax.com>,
Bible Believer <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

Who thinks Revelation 21-22 is about the future,
and who thinks it is about us, here and now?

What is your point? My belief that all of Revelation
has been fulfilled, shows that much of it is symbolic
and is spiritual. So your comment does not make
sense, since for example, the "new heaven and earth"
does not mean the literal atmosphere and planet
and so, does not call for their destruction.
The fact is, that my belief system does not call for
the planet to be destroyed, because my life isn't all
peaches and cream. ONLY FUTURISM DOES THAT!!!
And so, the real question, again, is why do you
think that calling for the destruction of the planet
is somehow Christian? And why would you align
yourself with such an attitude? And why would
you not be bothered by the things that "u2fan"
said in his post?

And so, for these folks, who believe that Jesus
has yet to return, it becomes a matter of war,
since when they say, "Come Lord", they mean,
"Bring on Armageddon! Yea!". (:

Taken literally, Armageddon brings vindication
for the righteous and sets the stage for the
complete fulfillment of both literal and spiritual
peace on earth. Having to pretend what we're
living in now represents God's will being done
on earth as it is in heaven, is disappointing at
best, and seems almost blasphemous.

It seems blasphemous to you, because you're
centered on the physical. So when you are
centered on the physical (and you are, or you
wouldn't be arguing for it and looking forward
to it), then yes, I would agree that it would
seem blasphemous to you. But when you are
centered on the spiritual and realize that God
is Spirit and that eternal life with Him is about
the spiritual, as is our joy and peace in this
world, just as the Bible says (and you snipped),
then what is blasphemous, is when someone
keeps going on about the physical, waiting
for the redeeming of the physical, as if the
physical could somehow be our eternal hope.
The Mosaic Covenant was physical. Where did
it get us? Christ is a spiritual covenant. And
it means eternal salvation. The Law saved
no one and was "the law of sin and death".
But eternal life is found in Christ Jesus!
God is Spirit, remember? And those who worship
Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Someone great said that. :)
You think that Heaven is a temporary stay. I don't.
Neither does God, Who has no plans on moving out,
contrary to your belief. :)
The Bible tells us that there is a physical body and
there is a spiritual body. Yet you think that it is
the spiritual body that will be temporary. You must,
since you believe that we will live again on Earth,
forever, in our physical bodies that will be resurrected
and changed into "super regenerated, live forever"
bodies. But God is Spirit and He lives in Heaven.
And in order for God to move here, Heaven must
not be perfect, since if it is, He wouldn't move out.
If you think about it, your belief demands that
Earth be a better place than Heaven, since God
will be leaving Heaven to live here, on a physical
planet Earth. So God, who is Spirit, is going to live
in a physical place?
Acts 7:48-50
48) Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples
made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49) Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what
is the place of my rest?
50) Hath not my hand made all these things?
It is clear that God will never live in a physical dwelling!
So you may say that the "spiritual body" will be the
resurrected body, but then, what body are you living in,
in Heaven? Hmmm... So you believe that a physical
Earth will be eternal, but Paul said...
"While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen: for the things
which are seen are temporal; but the things which
are not seen are eternal." - 2 Corinthians 4:18
Let's look at what Peter said about his body...
"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing
that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as
our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me." - 2 Peter 1:13-14
Now let's contrast that with what Paul said...
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not
made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Therefore we
are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home
in the body, we are absent from the Lord."
- 2 Corinthians 5:1,6
Note: Eternal where? Where is our eternal body?
And what is the physical aspect of our eternal body?
None! It is "not made with hands". It is not physical!
Now back to the point...
I never said that all Futurists are bent on destruction,
but the truth is, as I said, my belief system has
nothing within it that calls for people to be burning
in agony from nuclear weapons! And it does seem
like you are concerned with "getting even" for all
that the wicked have done. Yet, the Lord said that
vengeance belongs to Him. That does not mean that
you get to hate them, nor wish for their destruction.
It means that the attitude toward their destruction
can only be His and His alone, since He is the only
One who can have that attitude and be completely
fair and just about it. We are not capable of that
and since we are not, our attitude toward the lost
should be that of bringing the Gospel to them,
whenever possible. I know of course that we are
human. But that doesn't change what we are
supposed to be doing. And what we are supposed
to be doing, does not include cheering on the
destruction of the world!
And I am very surprised Randy, that you didn't have
a problem with someone claiming that WWIII is the
best option, with people suffering in agony for
months and then dying of starvation. If that is your
"Christian hope", then I'm not surprised the church
is having a tough time converting atheists! (:
--
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
.

User: "gatekeeper"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	22 Jan 2007 11:07:13 AM

Bible Believer wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 00:50:22 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:51:24 -0800,
in article <kkb7r2plp0csqm139lmknt5sq5hgisjj89@4ax.com>,
Bible Believer <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

Who thinks Revelation 21-22 is about the future,
and who thinks it is about us, here and now?

What is your point? My belief that all of Revelation
has been fulfilled, shows that much of it is symbolic
and is spiritual. So your comment does not make
sense, since for example, the "new heaven and earth"
does not mean the literal atmosphere and planet
and so, does not call for their destruction.

The fact is, that my belief system does not call for
the planet to be destroyed, because my life isn't all
peaches and cream. ONLY FUTURISM DOES THAT!!!

And so, the real question, again, is why do you
think that calling for the destruction of the planet
is somehow Christian? And why would you align
yourself with such an attitude? And why would
you not be bothered by the things that "u2fan"
said in his post?

And so, for these folks, who believe that Jesus
has yet to return, it becomes a matter of war,
since when they say, "Come Lord", they mean,
"Bring on Armageddon! Yea!". (:

It seems blasphemous to you, because you're
centered on the physical. So when you are
centered on the physical (and you are, or you
wouldn't be arguing for it and looking forward
to it), then yes, I would agree that it would
seem blasphemous to you. But when you are
centered on the spiritual and realize that God
is Spirit and that eternal life with Him is about
the spiritual, as is our joy and peace in this
world, just as the Bible says (and you snipped),
then what is blasphemous, is when someone
keeps going on about the physical, waiting
for the redeeming of the physical, as if the
physical could somehow be our eternal hope.

The Mosaic Covenant was physical. Where did
it get us? Christ is a spiritual covenant. And
it means eternal salvation. The Law saved
no one and was "the law of sin and death".
But eternal life is found in Christ Jesus!

God is Spirit, remember? And those who worship
Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Someone great said that. :)

You think that Heaven is a temporary stay. I don't.
Neither does God, Who has no plans on moving out,
contrary to your belief. :)

The Bible tells us that there is a physical body and
there is a spiritual body. Yet you think that it is
the spiritual body that will be temporary. You must,
since you believe that we will live again on Earth,
forever, in our physical bodies that will be resurrected
and changed into "super regenerated, live forever"
bodies. But God is Spirit and He lives in Heaven.
And in order for God to move here, Heaven must
not be perfect, since if it is, He wouldn't move out.
If you think about it, your belief demands that
Earth be a better place than Heaven, since God
will be leaving Heaven to live here, on a physical
planet Earth. So God, who is Spirit, is going to live
in a physical place?

Acts 7:48-50

48) Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples
made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49) Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what
is the place of my rest?
50) Hath not my hand made all these things?

It is clear that God will never live in a physical dwelling!

So you may say that the "spiritual body" will be the
resurrected body, but then, what body are you living in,
in Heaven? Hmmm... So you believe that a physical
Earth will be eternal, but Paul said...

"While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen: for the things
which are seen are temporal; but the things which
are not seen are eternal." - 2 Corinthians 4:18

Let's look at what Peter said about his body...

"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing
that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as
our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me." - 2 Peter 1:13-14

Now let's contrast that with what Paul said...

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not
made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Therefore we
are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home
in the body, we are absent from the Lord."
- 2 Corinthians 5:1,6

Note: Eternal where? Where is our eternal body?

And what is the physical aspect of our eternal body?
None! It is "not made with hands". It is not physical!

Now back to the point...

I never said that all Futurists are bent on destruction,
but the truth is, as I said, my belief system has
nothing within it that calls for people to be burning
in agony from nuclear weapons! And it does seem
like you are concerned with "getting even" for all
that the wicked have done. Yet, the Lord said that
vengeance belongs to Him. That does not mean that
you get to hate them, nor wish for their destruction.
It means that the attitude toward their destruction
can only be His and His alone, since He is the only
One who can have that attitude and be completely
fair and just about it. We are not capable of that
and since we are not, our attitude toward the lost
should be that of bringing the Gospel to them,
whenever possible. I know of course that we are
human. But that doesn't change what we are
supposed to be doing. And what we are supposed
to be doing, does not include cheering on the
destruction of the world!

And I am very surprised Randy, that you didn't have
a problem with someone claiming that WWIII is the
best option, with people suffering in agony for
months and then dying of starvation. If that is your
"Christian hope", then I'm not surprised the church
is having a tough time converting atheists! (:

--

The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.

I too, find the futurist explanation of scripture lacking. However,
their whole teaching of "Armageddon" makes me think of the spiritual
application where by a believer must come to the end of themselves, and
all their earthly hopes, before they can enter the Kingdom. That would
be the end of the world as they previously knew it!
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!
Gatekeeper
.

User: "Bible Believer"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	23 Jan 2007 10:41:46 PM

On 22 Jan 2007 09:29:42 -0800, "Randy" <pulpitfire@gmail.com>
claimed:

On Jan 22, 11:07 am, "gatekeeper"
<gatekeeper.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Bible Believer wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 00:50:22 -0600, Randy
<pulpitf...@gmail.com> claimed:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:51:24 -0800,
in article <kkb7r2plp0csqm139lmknt5sq5hgisj...@4ax.com>,
Bible Believer <n...@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 20 Jan 2007 14:49:17 -0800, "u2fan"
<isaiah6...@googlemail.com> claimed:

I came across this post from "u2fan" and it seems
to me, to be an example of exactly what I have
been saying about the general Futurist view of
the world. They think the Bible is all about them
today and the physical world, failing to see the
symbolism involved and so, instead of working
for peace, they figure it's all gonna end anyway,
so why bother trying, even though that attitude
contradicts the teaching of our Lord. (:

Who thinks Revelation 21-22 is about the future,
and who thinks it is about us, here and now?

The fact is, that my belief system does not call for
the planet to be destroyed, because my life isn't all
peaches and cream. ONLY FUTURISM DOES THAT!!!

And so, the real question, again, is why do you
think that calling for the destruction of the planet
is somehow Christian? And why would you align
yourself with such an attitude? And why would
you not be bothered by the things that "u2fan"
said in his post?

And so, for these folks, who believe that Jesus
has yet to return, it becomes a matter of war,
since when they say, "Come Lord", they mean,
"Bring on Armageddon! Yea!". (:

The Mosaic Covenant was physical. Where did
it get us? Christ is a spiritual covenant. And
it means eternal salvation. The Law saved
no one and was "the law of sin and death".
But eternal life is found in Christ Jesus!

God is Spirit, remember? And those who worship
Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Someone great said that. :)

You think that Heaven is a temporary stay. I don't.
Neither does God, Who has no plans on moving out,
contrary to your belief. :)

The Bible tells us that there is a physical body and
there is a spiritual body. Yet you think that it is
the spiritual body that will be temporary. You must,
since you believe that we will live again on Earth,
forever, in our physical bodies that will be resurrected
and changed into "super regenerated, live forever"
bodies. But God is Spirit and He lives in Heaven.
And in order for God to move here, Heaven must
not be perfect, since if it is, He wouldn't move out.
If you think about it, your belief demands that
Earth be a better place than Heaven, since God
will be leaving Heaven to live here, on a physical
planet Earth. So God, who is Spirit, is going to live
in a physical place?

Acts 7:48-50

48) Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples
made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49) Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what
is the place of my rest?
50) Hath not my hand made all these things?

It is clear that God will never live in a physical dwelling!

So you may say that the "spiritual body" will be the
resurrected body, but then, what body are you living in,
in Heaven? Hmmm... So you believe that a physical
Earth will be eternal, but Paul said...

"While we look not at the things which are seen,
but at the things which are not seen: for the things
which are seen are temporal; but the things which
are not seen are eternal." - 2 Corinthians 4:18

Let's look at what Peter said about his body...

"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing
that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as
our Lord Jesus Christ hath showed me." - 2 Peter 1:13-14

Now let's contrast that with what Paul said...

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle
were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not
made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Therefore we
are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home
in the body, we are absent from the Lord."
- 2 Corinthians 5:1,6

Note: Eternal where? Where is our eternal body?

And what is the physical aspect of our eternal body?
None! It is "not made with hands". It is not physical!

Now back to the point...

I never said that all Futurists are bent on destruction,
but the truth is, as I said, my belief system has
nothing within it that calls for people to be burning
in agony from nuclear weapons! And it does seem
like you are concerned with "getting even" for all
that the wicked have done. Yet, the Lord said that
vengeance belongs to Him. That does not mean that
you get to hate them, nor wish for their destruction.
It means that the attitude toward their destruction
can only be His and His alone, since He is the only
One who can have that attitude and be completely
fair and just about it. We are not capable of that
and since we are not, our attitude toward the lost
should be that of bringing the Gospel to them,
whenever possible. I know of course that we are
human. But that doesn't change what we are
supposed to be doing. And what we are supposed
to be doing, does not include cheering on the
destruction of the world!

And I am very surprised Randy, that you didn't have
a problem with someone claiming that WWIII is the
best option, with people suffering in agony for
months and then dying of starvation. If that is your
"Christian hope", then I'm not surprised the church
is having a tough time converting atheists! (:

The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.I too, find the futurist explanation of scripture lacking. However,

their whole teaching of "Armageddon" makes me think of the spiritual
application where by a believer must come to the end of themselves, and
all their earthly hopes, before they can enter the Kingdom. That would
be the end of the world as they previously knew it!

The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence! Whosoever will, may
come in!

Gatekeeper

God's will is not currently being done on earth
as it is in heaven, and society is not getting better
and better. Armageddon will be a time when
Christ vindicates the righteous, and which makes
the way for Him to establish peace and righteousness
on earth.

You say that like it's a fact.
When your focus is on the physical, then I can see
how you would be disappointed. But for me, I keep
remembering how Jesus clearly said that the Kingdom
of God would *NOT* be seen with the eye. No one
would be able to point at it and say, "Look! There
it is!". But you think that other writers contradicted
Him and not only that, but corrected Him, since you
think they said the opposite of what He did.
You think God's will is to have total peace on Earth.
Jesus said that that on this Earth, we would have
trouble. And nowhere do we read where He said,
"But later, it'll be peachy keen, dudes!".
You believe what you want. I'll believe Jesus.
But whatever you do, don't tell me that you
believe Jesus is God, when you deny His words,
in favor of your INTERPRETATION of another
writers' words.
--
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
.

User: "Bible Believer"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	23 Jan 2007 10:48:18 PM

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:48:34 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:

On 22 Jan 2007 14:09:21 -0800,
in article
<1169503761.682220.203340@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote:

I call Him Lord and King Now! His will is being done on Earth as in
Heaven.

There is death, both spiritual and literal, on earth, right
now.

There is spiritual death on Earth? Is that your hangup?
Okay, so just show me where God promised no spiritual
death for sinners.

There is sadness, sorrow, sickness and death, both
spiritually and literally.

Then you're not a very good Christian, huh? Jesus
promised joy to those who were alive, on Earth.
You say He's a liar, because it isn't happening,
according to you.
Jesus told us repeatedly not to rest our hope in this
world and that in this world, what we would have
is trouble, period! The joy described in the Bible
comes from God and is within us, not outside of us.
And that is where joy and contentment come from
and our peace comes from being in Christ, not from
what you see around you!
Now here's those Scriptures that you keep snipping,
because you don't like what they say, because they
contradict your ridiculous claims...
"These things I have spoken unto you, that
in me ye might have peace. In the world ye
shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world." - John 16:33
1 John 1:3-4
3) That which we have seen and heard declare
we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship
with us: and truly our fellowship is with the
Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4) And these things write we unto you,
that your joy may be full.
Philippians 4:11-13
11) Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have
learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be
content.
12) I know both how to be abased, and I know
how to abound: every where and in all things
I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry,
both to abound and to suffer need.
13) I can do all things through Christ which
strengtheneth me.
--
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
.

User: "Borean 69"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	22 Jan 2007 06:21:03 PM

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:40:11 -0800, Bible Believer <noway@nowhere.com>
wrote:

Which Bible? Who's version?
inerrant?
Let's review the account of Peter's denial of Jesus:
- - - - -
The full accounts of the denials [KJV]:
Matthew 26
33Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended
because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night,
before the ***** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
69Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him,
saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
70But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
71And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and
said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of
Nazareth.
72And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to
Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth
thee.
74Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man.
And immediately the ***** crew.
75And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before
the ***** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept
bitterly.
- - - -
Mark 14
29But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will
not I.
30And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day,
even in this night, before the ***** crow twice, thou shalt deny me
thrice.
66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the
maids of the high priest:
67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and
said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou
sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the ***** crew.
69And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by,
This is one of them.
70And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said
again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean,
and thy speech agreeth thereto.
71But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of
whom ye speak.
72And the second time the ***** crew. And Peter called to mind the
word that Jesus said unto him, Before the ***** crow twice, thou shalt
deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
Luke 22
33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into
prison, and to death.
34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the ***** shall not crow this day,
before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
55And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the hall, and were
set down together, Peter sat down among them.
56But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly
looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
57And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
58And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also
of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
59And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed,
saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a
Galilaean.
60And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately,
while he yet spake, the ***** crew.
61And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered
the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the ***** crow,
thou shalt deny me thrice.
- - - -
John 13
37Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay
down my life for thy sake.
38Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The ***** shall not crow, till thou
hast denied me thrice.
John 18
17Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou
also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
18And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of
coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood
with them, and warmed himself.
25And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto
him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I
am not.
26One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear
Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
27Peter then denied again: and immediately the ***** crew.
= = = = =
Now in review, how many times is the ***** to crow?
These writers say once:
Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this
night, before the ***** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Luke 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the ***** shall not crow
this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my
sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The ***** shall not crow, till
thou hast denied me thrice.
Mark disagrees and says twice:
Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this
day, even in this night, before the ***** crow twice, thou shalt deny
me thrice.
Who was right? Was it once or twice? If twice as Mark claims, then
the others were mistaken or liars, and vice versa.
- - - -
As to the three denials, who were the three accusers?
The first accuser:
Matthew 26:69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came
unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he
denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
Mark 14: 66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one
of the maids of the high priest 67 And when she saw Peter warming
himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus
of Nazareth. 68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand
I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the ***** crew.
[ooopps.. This was only the first denial. bad *****, bad *****.]
Luke 22:56 But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and
earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him. 57
And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
John 18:17 Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art
not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
Observation:
All report the first accuser was a maid or damsel. But note that Mark
has the ***** crowing at the first denial.
The second accuser:
Matthew 26:71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid
saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with
Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know
the man.
Mark 14:69 And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that
stood by, This is one of them. 70 And he denied it again. ...
Luke 22: 58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou
art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
John 18:18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a
fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter
stood with them, and warmed himself. 25 And Simon Peter stood and
warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of
his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
Observation:
So Matthew and Mark report the second accuser as a 'maid', while Luke
says it was a 'Man' and John leaves it ambiguous as 'they' [servants
and officers].
The third accuser:
Matthew 26:73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and
said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech
bewrayeth thee. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I
know not the man. And immediately the ***** crew.
Mark 14:70 ... And a little after, they that stood by said again to
Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy
speech agreeth thereto. 71 But he began to curse and to swear,
saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak. 72 And the second time
the ***** crew. [ooopps]
Luke 22:59 And about the space of one hour after another confidently
affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is
a Galilaean. 60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And
immediately, while he yet spake, the ***** crew.
John 18:26 One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman
whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with
him? 27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the ***** crew.
Observation:
Mathew and Mark identify the third accuser as 'they that stood by' and
Luke as merely 'another', but all 'confidently' declaring Peter to be
a disciple, where as John identifies the third accuser specifically as
the one whose ear had been lopped off and who did not 'affirm' or
declare but inquired "Did not I see thee in the garden with him?" And
again, Mark contradicts the others regarding the ***** crowing once or
twice.
How can such variances be reconciled with an 'inerrant' text?
If such specific variances exist in the text, how can we be sure of
any of the 'facts' therein, even if only one, uncontradicted statement
has been preserved?
.

User: "Bible Believer"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	23 Jan 2007 11:01:55 PM

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:21:03 -0500, Borean <69> claimed:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:40:11 -0800, Bible Believer <noway@nowhere.com>
wrote:

Which Bible? Who's version?

Go away, stupid. Goodbye. Join the other idiot atheists,
who subscribe to Christian news groups, for the sole
purpose of trying to tear people away from their faith,
while claiming that it's the atheists who are the tolerant
one and that Christians are not.
Stupid *****!
--
The Bible is the inerrant word of the living God!
If you don't believe the Bible, don't tell me that
you are a Christian. I won't believe you. To make
that claim, is to be a heretic who does not know God.
.

User: "Bible Believer"
Title: Re: ARMAGEDDON IS THE ONLY HOPE???	23 Jan 2007 10:27:14 AM

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:01:34 -0600, Randy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> claimed:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:31:31 -0800,
in article <7ak9r2tjfmb62h8r2omoiuke9r17q1n4ns@4ax.com>,
Bible Believer <noway@nowhere.com> wrote:

What is your point?

Futurists dont' think we are living in the eternal state,
here and now. They think it's about the future.
Preterists think the prophecies of Revelation 21-22
are all about us here and now. Therefore, it is not
correct to portray futurists as the ones who think
everything is all about them.

No, we think that everything is about Christ and that
He kept His promise a long time ago, Randy. Futurists
(not all, but most) tend to believe that Bible prophecies
are all about them and their time and what is happening
today and their "fulfillment" keeps changing as the daily
events change and not once, do we see anyone of them
saying, "I was wrong the last dozen times". So trying
to turn the tables and claim it's the other way around,
when you know what I said is true about Futurists in
general, is a weak attempt at best to do exactly that. (:
And now, you aren't even talking about what I actually
responded to, but rather, you're lashing out because
you don't like what I said about Futurism. But who
was it who called for the destruction of the world?
Was it me? Or was it a Futurist? Is it ever a Preterist?
Or is it always Futurists who do that? We both know
the answer to that.
You are not addressing the post that I addressed,
which you in fact snipped almost all of and didn't
address the first time around either. All you're
doing is lashing out against me and Preterism,
because you feel like your belief system has been
attacked. The reality is, that if you don't think that
your belief system calls for the kind of attitude that
"u2fan" displayed here, then your beef is with him
and the Futurists like him, which is most of them
and not me.
I think we both know that you're upset because
you know I'm right about that. Futurists are
the ones who call for the destruction of the planet
as a solution. You don't like that I pointed that out,
but you know that it is true.
But I will not sit here and argue with you about
Futurism vs Preterism, since that was not the main
thrust of my post and you have not addressed
the points I made in it.

And so, the real question, again, is why do you
think that calling for the destruction of the planet
is somehow Christian?

Futurists aren't anxiously awaiting the destruction of the
planet, but the fulfillment of God's will, which they believe
happens to include it.

Gee, what a nice belief! (: But I personally happen to
believe God's promise not to destroy the planet again.
You can believe that was only about water if you want
and that God will later laugh and say, "I said water.
this time it was by fire! Hahaha!" if you wish, but I won't.
But what you said is not true. It's actually a lie. I just
responded to a post in which a Futurist was calling for
the destruction of the planet. That was what this thread
was and *YOU* responded to my response to that post
and snipped most of it! And what you snipped, included
"u2fan's" claim that WWIII was the only option and that
people having to suffer in agony for months, while dying
of starvation after a nuclear war, was the way to go!
So how do you now sit there and tell me that Futurists
aren't the ones calling for the destruction of the planet?!?
Now here is your actual problem. You had nothing bad
to say about what I actually addressed, which was "u2fan's"
calling for WWIII and the suffering of most people for months
and my factual statement that it is Futurists who call for
this destruction (again, not all, but it will normally be
a Futurist when it happens) and you got upset because
I hit the nail right on the head!
And we both know that the things he said were disgusting!
And yet, you did not even call him to task and now, you
wish me to think that Futurists are the ones who approach
this honestly, when you, a Futurist, cannot even be honest
about what it is that many Futurists call for? Please! (:
I'm really disappointed in your responses to this thread,
Randy. I really am. (: You could have responded by
denouncing the type of attitude that "u2fan" displayed.
Instead, you snipped all of that and decided to attack
Preterism, which calls for people to make the world
a better place. I'm sorry if that attitude bothers you,
but I think you should check your emotions regarding
the issues in this thread, Randy. I really do, my brother.
And with that, I am done arguing with you. Attacking
my belief system, based on lamely trying to pretend
that Preterists are guilty of what Futurists are guilty of,
only makes you look desperate and it shows that you
know that what I said is true, since you obviously
cannot directly defend your belief system on its own.
This is what you constantly do and IMO, it is ridiculous
and as I said, shows that you know that your belief
system cannot be defended against such statements,
which are based on truth. And you were foolish
enough to actually claim that what I said isn't true,
in the very same thread in which a Futurist was
claiming the very things I said! You snipping all of
that when responding and claiming it doesn't happen,
shows what to us Randy? Honesty? Please! (:
Think about it, instead of lashing out.
Here is my original response to the original post...
**********************************************
On 20 Jan 2007 14:49:17 -0800, "u2fan"
<isaiah6517@googlemail.com> claimed:
I came across this post from "u2fan" and it seems
to me, to be an example of exactly what I have
been saying about the general Futurist view of
the world. They think the Bible is all about them
today and the physical world, failing to see the
symbolism involved and so, instead of working
for peace, they figure it's all gonna end anyway,
so why bother trying, even though that attitude
contradicts the teaching of our Lord. (:
And so, for these folks, who believe that Jesus
has yet to return, it becomes a matter of war,
since when they say, "Come Lord", they mean,
"Bring on Armageddon! Yea!". (:
Take a look at this post. Because he doesn't see
what he wants to see ON EARTH, he thinks there
is no hope, so bring on Armageddon, he says!