Religions > Bible > AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE?
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
14 Mar 2006 01:43:12 AM |
| Object: |
AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
14 Mar 2006 10:24:22 AM |
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wrote:
no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
===>They accept and spread the Big Lie
that it is the "Word of God",
so they can convince others to believe certain
verses that support their sectarian doctrines. -- L.
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| User: "Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 04:01:38 AM |
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wrote:
no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
It's not a matter of caring if the Bible is true ... it's a matter of
KNOWING that it is true.
You are asking such baiting questions because you are not saved and thereby
lack the necessary spiritual connectedness with the Father through the Holy
Spirit to likewise KNOW that it is true.
You're natural. Those who have been born again are spiritual. The Bible is a
spiritual book, and lacking spiritual eyes, you can't discern the truth of
it.
--
Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
Professionals built the Titanic ...
Amateurs built the Ark
Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 11:40:36 AM |
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<p>"Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>ck19bla@msn.com wrote:
<p>> no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
<p>It's not a matter of caring if the Bible is true ... it's a matter of
<br>KNOWING that it is true.
<p>You are asking such baiting questions because you are not saved</blockquote>
===>What does that REALLY mean?
<br>Saved from WHAT?
<br>From having to think?
<br>Remember:
<br>THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>and thereby
<br>lack the necessary spiritual connectedness with the Father through
the Holy
<br>Spirit to likewise KNOW that it is true.
<p>You're natural. Those who have been born again are spiritual.</blockquote>
===>I.e. UNNATURAL?
<br>You "spirituals" pretend to have some kind of weird superiority,
<br>not knowing that ALL THINGS ARE NATURAL!
<br>Nature is all there is, and no matter how you try, you cannot get
<br>outside of nature.
<br>So, no matter what you call yourself, though seriously misguided,
<br>YOU ALSO ARE "NATURAL". -- L.
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>The Bible is a spiritual book, and lacking spiritual
eyes, you can't discern the truth of
<br>it.</blockquote>
===>There's no such thing as "spiritual eyes".
<br>It is just a metaphor for interpreting things according to some
<br>religious point of view.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>--
<br>Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
<br>Professionals built the Titanic ...
<br> Amateurs built the Ark
<br>Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
<br>sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo</blockquote>
===>Sola Ignorantia.
<br>ERRARE HUMANUM,
<br>IN ERRORE PERSEVERARE STULTUM EST. -- L.</html>
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| User: "Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 02:46:33 PM |
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L, I apologize for being confused and trying to confuse you. WA7QZR below is
also me. I'm in the process of migrating from one newsreader to another and
things got mixed up a little.
--
Doulos Iesous Christou
Professionals built the Titanic ... Amateurs built the Ark
Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo
Warning: I filter out crosspostings.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 04:13:01 PM |
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<p>"Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>L, I apologize for being confused and trying to confuse
you. WA7QZR below is
<br>also me. I'm in the process of migrating from one newsreader to another
and
<br>things got mixed up a little.</blockquote>
===>OK. Thanks.
<br>I was wondering what happened.
<br>EGO TE ABSOLVO.
<br>PAX TECUM! -- L.</html>
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| User: "WA7QZR" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 02:33:56 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
And you think I'm weird ... look who's posting an HTML message to a Usenet
newsgroup and, no doubt, expecting an answer. Nevertheless, I'll try wading
through all the tags (sigh!).
<p>"Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>ck19bla@msn.com wrote:
<p>> no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
<p>It's not a matter of caring if the Bible is true ... it's a matter of
<br>KNOWING that it is true.
<p>You are asking such baiting questions because you are not
saved</blockquote> ===>What does that REALLY mean?
It simply means that when one is born again, they are reconnected with the
source of all life, in the same way Adam was connected. It was Adam's
rebellion that disconnected him, and consequently, all his descendants.
<br>Saved from WHAT?
<br>From having to think?
<br>Remember:
<br>THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH.
Saved from the consequences of what I described above. Mankind's inherent
sin nature had it's genesis in ... Genesis, with Adam's sin. Since it's
genetic, both physical and in some spiritual sense, we are all afflicted.
The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus is the only cure, and it is sufficient for
everyone who was ever born, or will ever be born. The only condition is
that we recognize that it is true, make a conscious decision to turn from
our regretful condition, and believe that the Lord Jesus was, and is, who
He said He was.
Christianity was never intended to be an ignorant faith. Things being the
way things are, all things spiritual are called ignorance, by the
nonspiritual and the humanistic, while the unsaved exalt their
materialistic and humanistic imaginations, calling them intelligent. If the
truth be known, the two terms are not mutually-exclusive.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>and thereby
<br>lack the necessary spiritual connectedness with the Father through
the Holy
<br>Spirit to likewise KNOW that it is true.
<p>You're natural. Those who have been born again are
spiritual.</blockquote> ===>I.e. UNNATURAL?
Natural, as in being bound to the things of this world. Natural as being
enslaved to all manner of things the Bible calls sinful lusts.
<br>You "spirituals" pretend to have some kind of weird superiority,
No. Humanistic pride produces such reactions. We could call it superiority,
if, and only if it was something of our own doing. All we did was to listen
to our conscience when the Gospel was heard and understood, repented of our
sorry state and believed on Jesus. God did the rest, including filling us
with His Holy Spirit, who empowers, leads and teaches us.
<br>not knowing that ALL THINGS ARE NATURAL!
<br>Nature is all there is, and no matter how you try, you cannot get
<br>outside of nature.
That's right. The whole universe is natural, and it is also corrupted by
sin. That's why everything falls apart and all living things die. God will
correct this condition eventually (and I believe it will be soon). The
Bible makes this clear: that all creation groans under the bondage to sin
and it's corrupting consequences.
<br>So, no matter what you call yourself, though seriously misguided,
<br>YOU ALSO ARE "NATURAL". -- L.
Those who have been born again are "in" the world, as we inhabit corrupting
physical forms that will eventually perish, (without God's intervention at
the appointed time), but we are no longer "of" the world, as we are set
free from the spiritual consequences of Adam's sin, and our own subsequent
sins.
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>The Bible is a spiritual book, and lacking spiritual
eyes, you can't discern the truth of
<br>it.</blockquote>
===>There's no such thing as "spiritual eyes".
<br>It is just a metaphor for interpreting things according to some
<br>religious point of view.
The Bible, the Gospel and all things which relate to God are nonsense and
foolishness to those who have rejected God's grace. Satan blinds their eyes
in an effort to destroy them. The preaching of the Gospel can penetrate
Satan's blinders and work on the conscience; To make sin more sinful so it
can be recognized for what it is and give the sinner a real opportunity to
humble themselves before their Creator, thereby giving Him permission to
deliver that person from the bondage of sin and death.
It's not a metaphor; it's a simile.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>--
<br>Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
<br>Professionals built the Titanic ...
<br> Amateurs built the Ark
<br>Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
<br>sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo</blockquote>
===>Sola Ignorantia.
<br>ERRARE HUMANUM,
<br>IN ERRORE PERSEVERARE STULTUM EST. -- L.</html>
One ignorant rant, eh? Well, at least I don't post HTML to Usenet, nor do I
have this problem:
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
I'd be willing to pray for you; That you might be delivered from the bondage
that is all things Micro$oft, if you'd like.
Peace, Man,
--
Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
Professionals built the Titanic ... Amateurs built the Ark
Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo
Warning: I filter out crosspostings.
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 04:08:47 PM |
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<p>WA7QZR wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Libertarius wrote:
<p>> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<br>> <html>
<br>> &nbsp;</blockquote>
===>No, Libertarius never wrote that.
<br>You are confused.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>And you think I'm weird ... look who's posting an
HTML message to a Usenet
<br>newsgroup and, no doubt, expecting an answer. Nevertheless, I'll try
wading
<br>through all the tags (sigh!).
<p>> <p>"Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" wrote:
<br>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>ck19bla@msn.com wrote:
<br>> <p>> no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
<br>> <p>It's not a matter of caring if the Bible is true ... it's a
matter of
<br>> <br>KNOWING that it is true.
<br>> <p>You are asking such baiting questions because you are not
<br>> saved</blockquote> ===>What does that REALLY mean?
<p>It simply means that when one is born again, they are reconnected with
the
<br>source of all life, in the same way Adam was connected. It was Adam's
<br>rebellion that disconnected him, and consequently, all his descendants.</blockquote>
===>Remote controlled ever since?
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>> <br>Saved from WHAT?
<br>> <br>From having to think?
<br>> <br>Remember:
<br>> <br>THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH.
<p>Saved from the consequences of what I described above. Mankind's inherent
<br>sin nature had it's genesis in ... Genesis, with Adam's sin.</blockquote>
===>Adam did not "sin".
<br>He simply did not believe the nonsense YHWH ELOHIM told him, i.e.
<br>that he would die instantly just from eating a fruit.
<br>And he did not.
<br>How that could become a hereditary problem, only Christian
<br>nonsense-believers can fathom.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Since it's
<br>genetic, both physical and in some spiritual sense, we are all afflicted.
<br>The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus is the only cure, and it is sufficient
for
<br>everyone who was ever born, or will ever be born. The only condition
is
<br>that we recognize that it is true, make a conscious decision to turn
from
<br>our regretful condition, and believe that the Lord Jesus was, and is,
who
<br>He said He was.
<p>Christianity was never intended to be an ignorant faith.</blockquote>
===>Of course it was.
<br>Read its founder, Saul/Paul of Tarsus:
<br>1 Corinthians 4:10
<br>We are fools for Christ's sake
<br>(Note: the word MOROS is the root of the English
<br>MORON)
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Things being the
<br>way things are, all things spiritual are called ignorance,</blockquote>
===>The opposite is the case.
<br>BECAUSE it is ignorant nonsense, it is defended by being called
<br>"spiritual".
<p>You "spirituals" pretend to have some kind of weird superiority,
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>No. Humanistic pride produces such reactions. We could call it superiority,
<br>if, and only if it was something of our own doing. All we did was to
listen
<br>to our conscience when the Gospel was heard and understood, repented
of our
<br>sorry state and believed on Jesus. God did the rest, including filling
us
<br>with His Holy Spirit, who empowers, leads and teaches us.
<p>> <br>not knowing that ALL THINGS ARE NATURAL!
<br>> <br>Nature is all there is, and no matter how you try, you cannot
get
<br>> <br>outside of nature.
<p>That's right. The whole universe is natural, and it is also corrupted
by
<br>sin.</blockquote>
===>That is Gnostic bovine manure.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>That's why everything falls apart and all living
things die.</blockquote>
===>Take a course or read a book at least in astronomy.
<br>EVERYTHING comes into existence and transformed into something else.
<br>Stars and Galaxies "die", to be transformed into new stars and planets,
<br>etc.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>God will
<br>correct this condition eventually (and I believe it will be soon).</blockquote>
===>Ah, so you believe he is "sorry" again that he had created this mess?
<br>(See Genesis 6)
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>The
<br>Bible makes this clear: that all creation groans under the bondage
to sin
<br>and it's corrupting consequences.</blockquote>
===>More Gnostic nonsense.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>> <br>So, no matter what you call yourself, though seriously misguided,
<br>> <br>YOU ALSO ARE "NATURAL". -- L.
<p>Those who have been born again are "in" the world, as we inhabit corrupting
<br>physical forms that will eventually perish,</blockquote>
===>NONSENSE.
<br>NOTHING "perishes".
<br>All things are RECYCLED.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>(without God's intervention at
<br>the appointed time), but we are no longer "of" the world, as we are
set
<br>free from the spiritual consequences of Adam's sin, and our own subsequent
<br>sins.</blockquote>
===>More Biblical jargon and nonsense.
<br>Of course you are "of" the world.
<br>You can escape even into schizophrenia, but you will always
<br>be "of the world".
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>> <br>&nbsp;
<br>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>The Bible is a spiritual book, and lacking
spiritual
<br>> eyes, you can't discern the truth of
<br>> <br>it.</blockquote>
<br>> ===>There's no such thing as "spiritual eyes".
<br>> <br>It is just a metaphor for interpreting things according to
some
<br>> <br>religious point of view.
<p>The Bible, the Gospel and all things which relate to God are nonsense
and
<br>foolishness to those who have rejected God's grace.</blockquote>
===>No one is rejecting "God's grace", only the foolishness taught by
<br>religious pretenders who claim to speak for some "God".
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Satan blinds their eyes in an effort to destroy them.
The preaching of the Gospel can penetrate
<br>Satan's blinders and work on the conscience; To make sin more sinful
so it
<br>can be recognized for what it is and give the sinner a real opportunity
to
<br>humble themselves before their Creator, thereby giving Him permission
to
<br>deliver that person from the bondage of sin and death.
<p>It's not a metaphor; it's a simile.
<p>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>> <p>--
<br>> <br>Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
<br>> <br>Professionals built the Titanic ...
<br>> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Amateurs built the Ark
<br>> <br>Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms 119:89
<br>> <br>sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola Christo</blockquote>
<br>> ===>Sola Ignorantia.
<br>> <br>ERRARE HUMANUM,
<br>> <br>IN ERRORE PERSEVERARE STULTUM EST. -- L.</html>
<p>One ignorant rant, eh? Well, at least I don't post HTML to Usenet, nor
do I
<br>have this problem:</blockquote>
===>Nor do I.
<br>Tere's something wrong with your provider.
<br>None of my posts come out the way you show them.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
<p>I'd be willing to pray for you; That you might be delivered from the
bondage
<br>that is all things</blockquote>
===>You are in bondage of your own converted mind. -- L.</html>
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| User: "Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 08:10:26 PM |
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Libertarius wrote:
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<p>WA7QZR wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Libertarius wrote:
<p>> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<br>> <html>
<br>> &nbsp;</blockquote>
===>No, Libertarius never wrote that.
<br>You are confused.
Heh, your newsreader, which generates HTML documents, wrote it.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>And you think I'm weird ... look who's posting an
HTML message to a Usenet
<br>newsgroup and, no doubt, expecting an answer. Nevertheless, I'll try
wading
<br>through all the tags (sigh!).
<p>> <p>"Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou" wrote:
<br>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>ck19bla@msn.com wrote:
<br>> <p>> no. they just want to be able to pretend that it is true.
<br>> <p>It's not a matter of caring if the Bible is true ... it's a
matter of
<br>> <br>KNOWING that it is true.
<br>> <p>You are asking such baiting questions because you are not
<br>> saved</blockquote> ===>What does that REALLY mean?
<p>It simply means that when one is born again, they are reconnected with
the
<br>source of all life, in the same way Adam was connected. It was Adam's
<br>rebellion that disconnected him, and consequently, all his
descendants.</blockquote> ===>Remote controlled ever since?
Well, in a way, yes. We're all controlled by our needs, wants and desires.
Since those things proceed out of our natural man which is corrupted by
sin, many of them are sinful.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>> <br>Saved from WHAT?
<br>> <br>From having to think?
<br>> <br>Remember:
<br>> <br>THINKING CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR FAITH.
<p>Saved from the consequences of what I described above. Mankind's
inherent <br>sin nature had it's genesis in ... Genesis, with Adam's
sin.</blockquote> ===>Adam did not "sin".
<br>He simply did not believe the nonsense YHWH ELOHIM told him, i.e.
<br>that he would die instantly just from eating a fruit.
<br>And he did not.
<br>How that could become a hereditary problem, only Christian
<br>nonsense-believers can fathom.
You're looking it from an entirely humanistic aspect. Genesis records that
before Adam sinned, he and God walked together in Eden. Luke calls Adam a
son of God. Now, that's a pretty close relationship that no one enjoys
today. Besides, the world is littered with cemeteries which are proof
positive that Adam and all his descendants did, and still do, die. Dying
instantly was not the Curse ... it would eventually occur. Adam's sin also
separated him spiritually from God.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Since it's
<br>genetic, both physical and in some spiritual sense, we are all
afflicted. <br>The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus is the only cure, and it is
sufficient for
<br>everyone who was ever born, or will ever be born. The only condition
is
<br>that we recognize that it is true, make a conscious decision to turn
from
<br>our regretful condition, and believe that the Lord Jesus was, and is,
who
<br>He said He was.
<p>Christianity was never intended to be an ignorant faith.</blockquote>
===>Of course it was.
<br>Read its founder, Saul/Paul of Tarsus:
<br>1 Corinthians 4:10
<br>We are fools for Christ's sake
<br>(Note: the word MOROS is the root of the English
<br>MORON)
Fools to the Oriental mind, for the Jew sought to please God through
obedience to the Law of Moses; the Greek sought salvation through
philosophical knowledge. Simple faith was repugnant to both positions.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Things being the
<br>way things are, all things spiritual are called
ignorance,</blockquote> ===>The opposite is the case.
<br>BECAUSE it is ignorant nonsense, it is defended by being called
<br>"spiritual".
I think your statement here is too subjective. Either that, or I'm unable to
sort-out the HTML tags.
<p>You "spirituals" pretend to have some kind of weird superiority,
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>No. Humanistic pride produces such reactions. We could call it
superiority, <br>if, and only if it was something of our own doing. All we
did was to listen
<br>to our conscience when the Gospel was heard and understood, repented
of our
<br>sorry state and believed on Jesus. God did the rest, including filling
us
<br>with His Holy Spirit, who empowers, leads and teaches us.
<p>> <br>not knowing that ALL THINGS ARE NATURAL!
<br>> <br>Nature is all there is, and no matter how you try, you cannot
get
<br>> <br>outside of nature.
<p>That's right. The whole universe is natural, and it is also corrupted
by
<br>sin.</blockquote>
===>That is Gnostic bovine manure.
No, that's Romans.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>That's why everything falls apart and all living
things die.</blockquote>
===>Take a course or read a book at least in astronomy.
<br>EVERYTHING comes into existence and transformed into something else.
<br>Stars and Galaxies "die", to be transformed into new stars and
planets, <br>etc.
That's speculation because nobody has ever observed such an event. The
conclusion is arrived at because there is a presupposition of evolution in
the interpretation of the data, not by any firm evidence.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>God will
<br>correct this condition eventually (and I believe it will be
soon).</blockquote> ===>Ah, so you believe he is "sorry" again that he had
created this mess? <br>(See Genesis 6)
No. the Lord Jesus' sacrifice paid the entire penalty for sin. It merely
awaits sin's eradication.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>The
<br>Bible makes this clear: that all creation groans under the bondage
to sin
<br>and it's corrupting consequences.</blockquote>
===>More Gnostic nonsense.
No, more Romans.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>> <br>So, no matter what you call yourself, though seriously
misguided, <br>> <br>YOU ALSO ARE "NATURAL". -- L.
<p>Those who have been born again are "in" the world, as we inhabit
corrupting <br>physical forms that will eventually perish,</blockquote>
===>NONSENSE.
<br>NOTHING "perishes".
<br>All things are RECYCLED.
In violation of the laws of thermodynamics?
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>(without God's intervention at
<br>the appointed time), but we are no longer "of" the world, as we are
set
<br>free from the spiritual consequences of Adam's sin, and our own
subsequent <br>sins.</blockquote>
===>More Biblical jargon and nonsense.
Just because you are unable to comprehend the spiritual reality does not
make it nonsense. Consider quantum theory. It postulates 12 or 13
dimensions. Could it be that those dimensions outside of the four we are
aware of are what the ancients referred to as "spiritual"?
<br>Of course you are "of" the world.
<br>You can escape even into schizophrenia, but you will always
<br>be "of the world".
See above.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>> <br>&nbsp;
<br>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>The Bible is a spiritual book, and lacking
spiritual
<br>> eyes, you can't discern the truth of
<br>> <br>it.</blockquote>
<br>> ===>There's no such thing as "spiritual eyes".
<br>> <br>It is just a metaphor for interpreting things according to
some
<br>> <br>religious point of view.
<p>The Bible, the Gospel and all things which relate to God are nonsense
and
<br>foolishness to those who have rejected God's grace.</blockquote>
===>No one is rejecting "God's grace", only the foolishness taught by
<br>religious pretenders who claim to speak for some "God".
Oh yes, there are a lot of those out there. However God is quite big enough
to speak for Himself; And He has. Through Creation; Through His Word; and,
Through His Son.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Satan blinds their eyes in an effort to destroy
them. The preaching of the Gospel can penetrate
<br>Satan's blinders and work on the conscience; To make sin more sinful
so it
<br>can be recognized for what it is and give the sinner a real
opportunity to
<br>humble themselves before their Creator, thereby giving Him permission
to
<br>deliver that person from the bondage of sin and death.
<p>It's not a metaphor; it's a simile.
<p>> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>> <p>--
<br>> <br>Micha-El, Doulos Iesous Christou
<br>> <br>Professionals built the Titanic ...
<br>> <br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Amateurs built the Ark
<br>> <br>Forever, oh Lord, Thy Word is Settled in Heaven. Psalms
119:89 <br>> <br>sola fide, sola Scriptura, sola gratia, sola
Christo</blockquote> <br>> ===>Sola Ignorantia.
<br>> <br>ERRARE HUMANUM,
<br>> <br>IN ERRORE PERSEVERARE STULTUM EST. -- L.</html>
<p>One ignorant rant, eh? Well, at least I don't post HTML to Usenet, nor
do I
<br>have this problem:</blockquote>
===>Nor do I.
<br>Tere's something wrong with your provider.
<br>None of my posts come out the way you show them.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
No. Your Netscape, which is the user-agent you're using to work within the
newsgroups, is configured to send messages formatted in HTML, like a web
page. You need to reconfigure that portion of it to send text only.
Everything above that is not text is what I, and many others as well, get to
look at. HTML can be evil, which is why I have my newsreader configured for
text only.
<p>I'd be willing to pray for you; That you might be delivered from the
bondage
<br>that is all things</blockquote>
===>You are in bondage of your own converted mind. -- L.</html>
Aw, you cut out my Micro$oft. Are you really Bill Gates?
.
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| User: "Rob" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
14 Mar 2006 09:44:18 AM |
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I am a christian, and a professional academic in the sciences. In
order for me to believe something is true, I examine the evidence. I
have never - and I stress this - NEVER found anything that would
suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true. Just because you
don't understand a certain scripture, or a certain phrase that's used,
and don't understand how it could be true, doesn't mean it's not. I
work in Mathematics, and there are a lot of things about math I don't
know. Just because I don't understand the theorems and facts in the
area of math doesn't make them false. And just because people like you
don't understand the bible doesn't make it false. Like this guy
posting over and over about the "caring loving christian God killing
people". Just because he doesn't understand why people die, doesn't
make God a monster.
If you ask me, athiests need a lot more faith than we do: they think
that just because they don't understand something, it can't be true,
and that would take a whole lot of faith for me to believe.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 02:01:37 PM |
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"Rob" <robertborgersen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142351058.197396.76660@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I am a christian, and a professional academic in the sciences. In
order for me to believe something is true, I examine the evidence. I
have never - and I stress this - NEVER found anything that would
suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true.
The foundations of all Christian religions are the Bibles. The Bibles are
the literature of pure 'faith', not of scientific observation, evidence or
historical fact or demonstration.
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would God not protect the originals? What are available are
copies of copies by unknown men of questionable veracity biased by, and
dependent on, their membership in the clergy. The originals rotted and
disappeared thousands of years ago. The Bibles were hand written and
recopied more than a thousand years before the invention of the printing
press. And of course we not only do not know what was in the originals but
they were also written and altered by errant biased men motivated to impress
their flock.
It is interesting to note that NONE of the bibles were written during Jesus'
claimed life time. Time needed to pass to permit the creation of tales and
the embellishment of history.
According to Bart Ehrman, professor and Chair of the Dept. of Religious
Studies at the University of North Carolina, The Bible is not the error-free
word of any god. There are some 5,700 ancient Greek manuscripts that are the
basis of the modern versions of the New Testament, and scholars have
uncovered more thousands of differences in those texts.
The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been added to the
text years later -- and these are the only verses in that book that mention
Christ reappearing after his death.
Another critical passage is in 1 John, which explicitly sets out the Holy
Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). It is a cornerstone of
Christian theology, and this is the only place where it is spelled out in
the entire Bible -- and it appears to have been added to the text centuries
later, by an unknown scribe.
For a man who originally believed the Bible was the inspired Word of God,
Ehrman sought the true originals to shore up his faith. The problem: he
found there are NO original manuscripts of any of the New Testament.
"If the history of the resurrection of Christ had not really happened, the
message . . . according to the authority of the apostle Paul, had to be
'null and void'. Ehrman slowly came to a horrifying realization: There was
no real historical record. It was, he felt, all incense and myth, told by
illiterate men and not set down in writing for decades that followed.
There is no solid agreement even within the Christian community on the
interpretation of the Bibles. There are 18 English versions alone. There are
thousands of variations and opinions as to the meaning of various Biblical
statements.
If Jesus was God, why did he not leave behind his recorded record of his
rules and commands? Why are there NO Biblical documents written during his
time on earth? The Old Testaments were written 'before his birth'. The New
Testaments were written '60 and more years after his death' by men that
could never have known Jesus personally. NON were written during his
'claimed' life time.
There is NO objective verifiable evidence as to their authenticity and
veracity. The Bibles contain both historical and scientific errors. They
contain manifest absurdities, unfulfilled prophesies, immoralities,
indecencies, obscenities, atrocities, barbarities, myths, folklore and
legends. They are nothing more than hearsay, myths, contradictions and
implausible tales.
Here is just a small sampling of implausible Bible stories.
The story of creation
A totally illogical Biblical story is the story of creation. It is obviously
pure fiction
Biblically, god created the world about six thousand years ago. Scientific
evidence indicates the Universe, as we now know it, began more than 13
BILLION years ago or more.
In the Bible, the Universe is a firmament and the Earth is a fixed (not to
mention flat) Planet and the Son, Moon and other planets revolve around the
earth. We now KNOW the Earth revolves around the Son and the Universe is
over 20 BILLION light years in diameter and is made up of trillions of Stars
and Planets of which our planetary system is a very miniscule and
unimportant part. There was no concept of a Universe in Biblical times.
Everything beyond our immediate Son and planets was considered Heaven.
In the Bible the earth is created in the first day, before the Son, Moon and
Stars. Objective scientific evidence is that the Earth did not form until
approximately 10 BILLION YEARS after the beginning of the present Universe
and after the formation of the Son, and many other stars.
The Creation of the World
Genesis
In the beginning of creation, when God made heaven and earth, the earth was
without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a
mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters. God said, Let there
be light, and there was light; and God saw that the light was good, and he
separated light from darkness. He called the light day, and the darkness
night. So evening came, and morning came, the first day. God created light
before he created the Sun and the Moon!
Astronomical evidence indicates shows the Son existed long before the Earth;
therefore the earth was not created before the Son. It is equally obvious
that the writers of that time thought the World was the center the firmament
and that they had no conception of the size and nature of the Universe.
Everything beyond the Sun and Moon was considered to be gods Heaven
God said, Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from
water. So God made the vault, and separated the water under the vault from
the water above it, and so it was; and God called the vault heaven. Evening
came, and morning came, a second day.
God said; Let the waters under heaven be gathered into one place, so that
dry land may appear; and so it was. God called the dry land earth, and the
gathering of the waters he called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then
God said, Let the earth produce fresh growth, let there be on the earth
plants bearing seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its kind. So it was; the earth yielded fresh growth, plants bearing seed
according to their kind and trees bearing fruit each with seed according to
its king; and God saw that it was good. Evening came, and morning came, a
third day.
And this good and loving God created animals that eat other animals (and
man) and poisonous plants and snakes that kill!
God said, Let there be lights in the vault of heaven to separate day from
night, and let them serve as signs both for festivals and for seasons and
years. Let them also shine in the vault of heaven to give light on earth. So
it was; God made the two great lights, the greater to govern the day and the
lesser to govern the night; and with them he made the stars. God put these
lights in the vault of heaven to give light on earth, to govern day and
night, and to separate light from darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Evening came, and morning came, a fourth day.
Ancient man erroneously thought the stars beyond the Sun and Moon to be
Heaven. The Moon was NOT considered a reflection from the light of the Sun
but a lesser light.
God, said, Let the waters teem with countless living creatures, and let
birds fly above the earth across the vault of heaven. God then created the
great sea-monsters and all living creatures that move and swarm in the
waters, according to their kind, and every kind of bird; and God saw that it
was good. So he blessed them and said, be fruitful and increase, fill the
waters of the seas; and let the birds increase on land. Evening came, and
morning came, a fifth day.
And this all loving God created creatures of that kill and eat other
creatures including man.
Archaeological evidence shows that animals evolved from primitive cells over
a period of about four billion years - not in one day!
God said, let the earth bring forth living creatures, according to their
kind: cattle, reptiles, and wild animals, all according to their kind. So it
was; God made wild animals, cattle, and all reptiles, each according to its
kind; and he saw that it was good. Then God said, Let us make man it our
image and likeness to rule the fish in the sea , the birds of heaven, the
cattle, all wild animals on earth, and all reptiles that crawl upon the
earth. So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, be
fruitful and increase, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish in
the sea, the birds of heaven, and every living thing that moves upon the
earth. God also said, I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on
earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours
for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the
birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on earth, every living creature. So it
was; and God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Evening came,
and morning came, a sixth day.
And God created animals that need to kill and eat other animals including
man in order to survive. This is a loving and caring God?
Thus heaven and earth were completed with all their mighty throng. On the
sixth day God completed all the work he had been doing, and on the seventh
day he ceased from all his work. God blessed the seventh day and made it
holy, because on that day he ceased from all the work he had set himself to
do and rested.
Why would a God that is not physical but spiritual, get tired and need rest?
If this creator is such a loving and caring guy, why does he permit totally
innocent children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.?
Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence?
Why does this loving and caring god create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions that effect people indiscriminately regardless of
their conduct or religious beliefs? Why does he permit millions of both
young and old to starve to death?
These afflict humans indiscriminately - young and old, atheists and members
of all religious beliefs.
Why did he design humans to suffer the decrepitude and malignancies of old
age? Even those that devote their lives to religious leadership suffer these
punishments of old age.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals that need to eat other
animals to survive?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. The objective evidence is that, if there is a
god creator, he has no concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
Adam and Eve
In the Bible, there are two different accounts of Adam and Eve's creation.
According to the Priestly (P) history of the 5th or 6th century BC (Genesis
1:1-2:4), God on the sixth day of Creation created all the living creatures
and, "in his own image," man both "male and female." God then blessed the
couple, told them to be "fruitful and multiply," and gave them dominion over
all other living things.
According to the lengthier Yahwist (J) narrative of the 10th century BC
(Genesis 2:5-7, 2:15-4:1, 4:25), God, or Yahweh, created Adam at a time when
the earth was still void, forming him from the earth's dust and breathing
"into his nostrils the breath of life." God then gave Adam the primeval
Garden of Eden to tend but, on penalty of death, commanded him not to eat of
the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Subsequently, so that
Adam would not be alone, God created other animals but, finding these
insufficient, put Adam to sleep, took from him a rib, and created a new
companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence until Eve yielded to the
temptations of the evil serpent and Adam joined her in eating the forbidden
fruit, whereupon they both recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves
as garments. Immediately, God recognized their transgression and proclaimed
their punishments-for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to
man, and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must
toil and sweat for his subsistence. Adam died at the age of 930!
In later Christian theology, the concept of original sin (q.v.) took hold-a
sin in which human kind has been held captive since the fall of Adam and
Eve. The doctrine was based on Pauline Scripture but has not been accepted
by a number of Christian sects and interpreters. Why should BILLIONS of
innocent people be punished over thousands of years for this original sin
that they had no part in?
This is both sadistic and ridiculous!
Jonah
As the story is related in the Book of Jonah, the prophet Jonah is called by
God to go to Nineveh (a great Assyrian city) and prophesy disaster because
of the city's wickedness. Jonah, in the story, feels about Nineveh as does
the author of the Book of Nahum-that the city must inevitably be destroyed
because of God's judgment against it. Thus Jonah does not want to prophesy,
because Nineveh might repent and thereby be saved. So he rushes down to
Joppa and takes passage in a ship that will carry him in the opposite
direction, thinking to escape God.
A storm of unprecedented severity strikes the ship, and it shows signs of
breaking up and foundering. Jonah confesses that it is his presence on board
that is causing the storm. At his request, he is thrown overboard, and the
storm subsides.
A "great fish," appointed by God, swallows Jonah, and he stays within the
fish's maw for three days and nights. He prays for deliverance and is
"vomited out" on dry land (ch. 2).
Totally implausible. He would have been digested by the fish in those three
days!
Sodom and Gomorrah
According to the Bible these cities and everyone in them, except Lot and his
family, were destroyed by fire and brimstone for their sinfulness. Lot's
wife was turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying God's command to not
look back at her city of birth being destroyed.
There is no way that EVERYONE in two cities could be so sinful, especially
innocent children, to deserve destruction by fire and brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah constituted, along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and
Zoar (Bela), the five biblical "cities of the plain." Destroyed by"brimstone
and fire" because of their wickedness (Genesis 19:24).
Sodom and Gomorrah probably were devastated about 1900 BC by an earthquake
in the Dead Sea area of the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending
from the Jordan River valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East
Africa. When the catastrophic destruction occurred, the petroleum and gases
existing in the area probably contributed to the imagery of "brimstone and
fire"
Cruel, inhumane and pure nonsense!
The Tower of Babel
Genesis 11.1 - 11.9
God became concerned that the Tower being built would reach his heaven.
He confounded the builders by giving them different languages so they could
no longer communicate with each other to continue the construction.
Why would this be of any concern to an all powerful God creator and wouldn't
this God creator realize that no tower could possibly reach his spiritual
heaven?
Noah and the Ark
The Bible is claimed to be the inerrant word of God
The story of Noah and the flood is only one of many ridiculous biblical
tales with no authentication or plausibility of any kind. It is an
impossible story.
1. The largest boat ever built to this day could not even come CLOSE to
housing Noah, his sons, wives and two of every type of animal on earth. And
this was a boat built of wood many thousands of years ago. There are 1.7
million KNOWN species of animals on this planet. This story is patently
impossible, using only materials and tools available to Noah, to build an
arch large enough to hold all these creatures, together with suitable
environments for each of them to live in, keeping them all separated so they
don't kill and eat each other. And then provide room and an environment for
many hundreds of millions of known species of insects, plants, molds etc. on
this planet?
2. Where did they house all of the new born during this ten month
escapade?
3. In addition, the ship would have to carry a TEN MONTHS supply of food
and fresh water for the people and thousands of animals for them to survive.
What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone
extinct. How did they dispose of the thousands of tons of feces? It must
have been one stinking ship!
4. Now according to the Bible the earth was flooded for ten months. This
would kill off all the vegetation. What did the animals eat for an
additional year or more after the flood subsided?
5. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove
returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out
again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive
the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't
germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11.
6. And according to this myth, Noah was also over 600 years old!
This is a grossly implausible tale that ranks as a greater tale than Santa
Claus, The Wizard of Oz, The Easter Bunny and The Tooth Fairy!
Genesis 6:6
6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain.
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face
of the earth: men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and
birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."
9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he
walked with God.
Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family,
because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven
[a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every
kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind
of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the
earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days
and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living
creature I have made."
6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7
And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of
birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female,
came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after
the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.
This is patently ridiculous and impossible. How could they capture and load
over three million animals in a period of seven days???
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month-on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and
the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth
forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with
his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with
them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to
their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its
kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs
of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and
entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every
living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.
17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters
increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and
increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the
water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under
the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the
mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [, 21 Every living thing that
moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the
creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry
land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing
on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures
that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the
earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
This of course would have also killed all the vegetation on Earth!
Genesis 7:6 (New International Version)
6 Noah was "six hundred" years old when the floodwaters came on the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to
escape the waters of the flood
Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that
were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters
receded.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and
fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on
the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day
of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible
And what did they eat until all the vegetation recovered from the flood???
Genesis 9 God's Covenant with Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and
increase in number and fill the earth.
2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and
all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground,
and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands.
3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you
the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand
an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an
accounting for the life of his fellow man.
Before man learned how to create a fire, he had no choice but to eat raw
meat!
Samson
Hebrew Shimshon, Israelite hero portrayed in an epic narrative in the Old
Testament (Judg. 13-16). He was a Nazirite (q.v.) and a legendary warrior
whose incredible exploits hint at the weight of Philistine pressure on
Israel during much of the early, tribal period of Israel in Canaan
(1200-1000).
Samson was claimed to possess extraordinary physical strength, and the moral
of his saga relates the disastrous loss of his power to the violation of his
Nazirite vow. Credited with remarkable exploits-e.g., the slaying of a lion
and moving the gates of Gaza-he first broke his religious promises by
feasting with a woman from the neighboring town of Timnah, who was also a
Philistine, one of Israel's mortal enemies. Other remarkable deeds follow;
e.g., his decimating the Philistines in a private war. On another occasion
he repulsed their assault on him at Gaza, where he had gone to visit a
harlot. He finally fell victim to his foes through love of Delilah, a woman
of the valley of Sorek, who beguiled him into revealing the secret of his
strength: his long Nazirite hair. As he slept, Delilah had his hair cut and
betrayed him. He was captured, blinded, and enslaved by the Philistines, but
in the end he was granted his revenge; through the return of his old
strength, he supposedly demolished the great Philistine temple of the god
Dagon, at Gaza, destroying his captors and himself (Judg.16:4-30).
A truly implausible tale!
God created a three level Universe - Heaven above, a flat World resting on
water. Genesis 1:6-10; 7:11; 8:2; 11:11-9; 19:24; 28:12-13; Exodus 20:4;
Numbers 16:30-33; Deuteronomy 33:17.
God created the Sun and the Moon on the fourth day but created light on the
first day! Genesis1:1-9; 14-19
It is claimed that the Eve, first woman, was created from one of Adam's
ribs.
Genesis 3:1-5 Men and women have the same number of ribs on each side of
their body? And in any case why would a god that has created the Universe
and everything in it need to tale rib from Adam to create Eve???
The Bibles claim that a talking snake talked Eve into eating the forbidden
fruit.
The Bibles claim that Adam lived 930 years, Seth 912 years, Enosh 905 years,
Kenan910 years, Mahalael 895 years, Jared 962 years, Methuselah 969 years;
Lamech 777 years, and Noah 950 years. Genesis 5:-31; 9:29
God commanded that every baby boy at age of eight days be circumcised.
At that time sterilization (of knives) was unknown and many died of
infection for which they new no cure. Why did this almighty and all caring
God create baby boys with foreskins on their penis that he then required to
be painfully and dangerously removed?
This all caring and loving God sent ten horrible plagues upon the Egyptians
Exodus 7:14-12:32 and in his loving generosity gave Israel the land of the
Canaanites and the Israelites slaughtered every person of seven nations.
Twenty one million, men women and innocent children, were slaughtered
according to the Bible. Exodus 12:1-2
This is a loving god???
According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan, for forty
days. Assuming that Jesus is God, we are required to believe that God
was tempted by Satan, who was created by God in the first place.
[NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all
the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give
you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to
him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your
God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10] If Jesus is God,
would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the
world when all the all kingdoms of the world were created by and already
belong to God??
======================================================
God in the Bibles classifies bats as birds when anyone with an elementary
knowledge of biology knows that bats are flying MAMMALS!
Letiviticus11:13, 19
This God can't control his temper resulting in killing thousands of people.
Numbers 11:31-35; 25:1-9
He and Moses ordered the Israelites to kill all the male and Female
Medianites who had ever had sex but to spare the young women who were
virgins and keep them for themselves to enjoy. Numbers 31:14-1
Jeremiah:16:1: The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,
2: Thou shall not take thee a wife, neither shall thou have sons or
daughters in this place.
3: For thus saith the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters
that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them,
and concerning their fathers that begat them in this land;
4: They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither
shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth:
and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses
shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
5: For thus saith the LORD, Enter not into the house of mourning, neither go
to lament nor bemoan them: for I have taken away my peace from this people,
saith the LORD, even loving kindness and mercies.
======================================================
According to the unerring Bible, the earth is the oldest object in the
Universe. (Genesis 1:1), snakes can talk (Genesis 3:1-5), and Man had
dominion over the dinosaurs (Genesis 1:26, 28)."
Really??? The Earth did not come into existence until 10 BILLION years after
the Universe. Man came into existence MILLIONS of years AFTER the extinction
of the Dinosaurs.
======================================================
God is satisfied with his works
[Gen 1:31]
God is dissatisfied with his works.
[Gen 6:6]
God dwells in chosen temples
[2 Chron 7:12,16]
God dwells not in temples
[Acts 7:48]
======================================================
Jesus' claimed last words on the cross, 'My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?' Hardly seems like the words of a god that created and
controlled the whole world and who planned his entry and exit on earth.
More obvious nonsense!
======================================================
Additional Bible nonsense too voluminous to quote fully;
Mt.4:8: Gen. 1:6; Deut. 30.4; Job. 9:6,22:13, 26:11; PSA 75.3, 103.12;
1 Sam 2.8; Isa. 13.5, 40.21-22; Dan 4.10-11; Re. 7.1, 20.8; Psa 93:1, 96:10,
105.5Job. 22.14; Rev. 6.14; Acts 10:11; Rev. 6:13, 8:14; Mat. 2:9; Gen 1:16;
Lev.19.27, 11.7,10-12: Mat. 5:17-19; Luke 16:17; Lev. 19.19; Luke 16:1-9;
Amos 3:6; Isa. 45:7; Lev, 18.22, 20.13; Deut. 13.6; Judges 14.20; 1 Sam
16:21-23, 18.1-3; Sam 1:26, 13:3, 15:37, 16:16-17: Mat. 2:13-15; Luke 2:1-7,
21; Gen. 11.6, 18:21, 27:33; Exod. 9:14, 12:12; Num 33.4; Deut. 3.23; Exod.
18:11; Eccl. 9.5-6, 9:10; Job 7.9-10, 13:28, 14:1-2, 14:1-2, 10-12, 21; Prov
2:18-19; Eccl. 10:17, 17:27, 28, 30, 19.3, 44:9; wisdom 2:1-5
This is just a sampling of ridiculous Bible tales. The Bibles are obviously
a mixture of fiction, fables, folklore and pure nonsense.
And these Bibles were dictated by God??? Then this God must be a demented
idiot.
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end
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
14 Mar 2006 10:40:14 AM |
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Rob wrote:
I am a christian, and a professional academic in the sciences. In
order for me to believe something is true, I examine the evidence. I
have never - and I stress this - NEVER found anything that would
suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true.
===>What does "a professional academic in the sciences" mean?
Are you a scientist? A high school science teacher?
A math teacher?
Let us hope you are not building bridges or producing
any new medicine.
If you had ever applied the scientific method to the Bible, you would
never make such assertions.
If you have TRULY "NEVER found anything that would
suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true"
it only means you never looked.
Just because you
don't understand a certain scripture, or a certain phrase that's used,
and don't understand how it could be true, doesn't mean it's not.
===>That is ridiculous.
Again, I cannot believe you have anything to do with science.
If you did, you would not insist that the results should be
subject to interpretation, as you suggest about the Bible.
I work in Mathematics, and there are a lot of things about math I don't
know.
===>That is obvious.
But with your logic, you could insist that when someone writes that
2x2 is FIVE, it can be true, depending on one's
"understand how it could be true."
Just because I don't understand the theorems and facts in the
area of math doesn't make them false.
===>It does not make them true, either.
You need PROOF!
And there is no proof that would eliminate the falsehoods in the
Bible.
And just because people like you
don't understand the bible doesn't make it false. Like this guy
posting over and over about the "caring loving christian God killing
people". Just because he doesn't understand why people die, doesn't
make God a monster.
===>No one said it makes "God a monster"
that people die.
If you ask me, athiests
===>If you ask me, you should at least learn to spell
ATHEISTS before you make statements about them.
need a lot more faith than we do: they think
that just because they don't understand something, it can't be true,
===>Why do you claim that ANYONE thinks
"that just because they don't understand something, it can't be true."
Most critics are former believers and understand it much better
than you. That is exactly why they see what you refuse to see.
It is YOU who don't understand their arguments, but, by
your own logic, that does not mean their argument is not true. ;-) -- L.
and that would take a whole lot of faith for me to believe.
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| User: "Rob" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 12:27:16 AM |
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===>What does "a professional academic in the sciences" mean?
Are you a scientist? A high school science teacher?
A math teacher?
I am a master's student in mathematics, and though I can't spell
ATHEISTS, I am a scientist.
If you had ever applied the scientific method to the Bible, you would
never make such assertions.
If you have TRULY "NEVER found anything that would
suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true"
it only means you never looked.
I was an ATHEIST before I STUDIED the bible. It took me 4 months to
come to the conclusion that it was true and reasonable to believe in
God, and in Jesus. I read the bible consistently, and occassionally
even come on boards like this, wondering if someone is actually giving
an argument which I havn't seen yet that God doesn't exist.
Just because you
don't understand a certain scripture, or a certain phrase that's used,
and don't understand how it could be true, doesn't mean it's not.
===>That is ridiculous.
Ok, so if this is wrong, then the opposite is true: I said it's not
true that failure to understand implies falsehood. So, you say I'm
wrong. Thus, you claim that failure to understand implies falsehood.
Tell me, what do you know about Ramsey theory? If I told you that
R(3,3) --> 6, what would you say? Woud you agree? If you don't
understand what I've written, then, according to your theory, it must
be false. But I'm telling you it's true, and if you look up a little
bit on Ramsey theory, you'll find it is. (I hope you see my point here
has nothing to do with Ramsey theory in particular)
But with your logic, you could insist that when someone writes that
2x2 is FIVE, it can be true, depending on one's
"understand how it could be true."
Absolutely this is true. Define a group on the elements {2,5}, in the
followin way:
2x2 = 5
2x5 = 2
5x2 = 2
5x5 = 5
You can check that associativity, and inverses are satisfied (5 is the
identity element). (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_%28mathematics%29 if you are not
familiar with groups)
Again, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its false.
Just because I don't understand the theorems and facts in the
area of math doesn't make them false.
===>It does not make them true, either.
You need PROOF!
And there is no proof that would eliminate the falsehoods in the
Bible.
You're right, it doesn't make them true. If I told you R(3,4) --> 2,
you would still not understand, but it would be wrong. My point is not
that everything you don't understand is true. My point is that not
everything you don't understand is false. Of course you need proof,
and God knows I'm not the one to provide that proof about many things.
And I'm sure there are bible verses that you could give me to throw me
for a loop that I havn't seen before. But just because I don't
understand them, doesn't mean God doesn't exist. So what's my point in
all this? My point is that in my last 6 years as a christian, I have
done lots of reading, and lots of research into what people think about
God and the bible, and I have never found anything that proves the
bible wrong at ANY point what-so-ever.
It is YOU who don't understand their arguments, but, by
your own logic, that does not mean their argument is not true. ;-) -- L.
I'm not an idiot (though a bad speller maybe...). I think myself a
fairly smart individual, and I can understand an argument when it's
presented to me. However, many of the arguments I hear (nearly all)
are obviously wrong with the knowledge I have. If you'd like to
suggest one or two of your best reasonings why God doesn't exist, I'd
be happy to hear them with an open mind (Please don't write a whole big
long list as I don't have a lot of time to respond--too many people do
this just hoping to overwhelm me. They don't, but they do prevent me
from posting back because I wouldn't have time enough to answer every
argument).
Of course, I make no guarantee that I will be able to defeat your
argument(s). I am only 24 years old, and there are many people in the
world who know 100 times what I do, but I am always up for learning.
Did you know the word 'Disciple' (used to describe the christians in
the new testament) means student?
I would also suggest you email me, for convenience sake.
Rob
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
15 Mar 2006 11:33:28 AM |
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<p>Rob wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>===>What does "a professional academic in the sciences"
mean?
<br>> Are you a scientist? A high school science teacher?
<br>> A math teacher?
<p>I am a master's student in mathematics, and though I can't spell
<br>ATHEISTS, I am a scientist.</blockquote>
===>A "master's student" is NOT a scientist.
<br>Not yet, anyway.
<br>It also depends on the university.
<br>Are you in some bible college?
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>> If you had ever applied the scientific method to
the Bible, you would
<br>> never make such assertions.
<br>> If you have TRULY "NEVER found anything that would
<br>> suggest ANYTHING in the bible isn't actually true"
<br>> it only means you never looked.
<p>I was an ATHEIST before I STUDIED the bible.</blockquote>
===>You were never an "atheist".
<br>You were just ignorant about religion and theology,
<br>but obviously did not know what it was you did not
<br>believe in.
<br>Then somehow you decided, WITHOUT anything like
<br>a scientific investigation, to "believe in God, and in Jesus."
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>It took me 4 months to
<br>come to the conclusion that it was true and reasonable to believe in
<br>God, and in Jesus. I read the bible consistently, and occassionally
<br>even come on boards like this, wondering if someone is actually giving
<br>an argument which I havn't seen yet that God doesn't exist.</blockquote>
===>You obviously don't realize that the strongest, most serious
<br>non-believers are those of us who THOROUGHLY investigated
<br>the "Bible".
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>> > Just because you
<br>> > don't understand a certain scripture, or a certain phrase that's
used,
<br>> > and don't understand how it could be true, doesn't mean it's not.
<br>> ===>That is ridiculous.
<p>Ok, so if this is wrong, then the opposite is true:</blockquote>
===>Non sequitur.
<p>Perhaps you should first look into the innumerable definitions
<br>of the word "GOD".
<br>There are many other religions besides Christianity,
<br>each of which teaches concepts of "GOD".
<br>And there are many, many varieties of Christianity,
<br>each of which based on an "understanding" of the literature
<br>you find compiled in the "Bible".
<br>Also, see the philosophy of Baruch Spinoza or even
<br>Albert Einstein who said he believed in
<br>"Spinoza's God".
<br>Or read Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian".
<br>You are young. Don't allow your mind to be closed
<br>by one particular narrow point of view.
<p>Wishing you the best. -- L.</html>
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Rob" |
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| Title: Re: AT THE END OF THE DAY DO CHRISTIANS CARE IF THE BIBLE IS TRUE? |
21 Mar 2006 10:40:57 AM |
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===>A "master's student" is NOT a scientist.
Not yet, anyway.
Oh I am terribly sorry that 6 years of university (at a public secular
university) is not enough for you to consider me a scientist. I guess
all those chemists, physicists, biologists, and other mathematicians
with ONLY a 4 year degrees don't have a chance to be called scientists
by you. How dare you call all those people non-scientists.
===>You were never an "atheist".
You were just ignorant about religion and theology,
but obviously did not know what it was you did not
believe in.
Then somehow you decided, WITHOUT anything like
a scientific investigation, to "believe in God, and in Jesus."
You don't even know me, and yet you make judgements about my character
like this??? You're right, I was ignorant about religion and theology.
I didn't know what the bible said, and I didn't know what the Koran,
or any other "holy" book said. But I knew what I believed: that the
possibility of a God existing was rediculus. Satan, maybe--I always
wondered if someone was out there purposly making my life a living
hell. But when some guys invited me to study the bible, I decided to
take a look (for reasons of finding friendships and getting to know
people on campus). They showed me what the bible had to say, and I
found it interesting. I looked deeper into it, and read more, and it
all made sense. I didn't go around and start looking at all the
arguments that people had come up with over the years to contradict
God, so if you want to call me non-scientific for that, go ahead. What
I did do, was I looked at my own life, and looked at history, and
decided it was MORE than plausible, and in fact probable, that Jesus
did exist and did die on a cross. From there, I had to look at the
possibilities: either he was a liar, a lunitic, or in fact lord of the
universe. The third was almost rediculus to me, but the first two WERE
rediculus, knowing what I knew about the bible at that point. So I
made the choice. It took me nearly four full months to make this
decision, and I did read numerous texts on the topic, and looked at
what I believed to be most likely, and began to live my life according
to that.
Now, I know you'll say "well thats so unscientific! Believing what is
most likely...how could you do that and call yourself a scientist?"
Thats garbage. Scientists do it all the time. They endevour to find
proofs, and prove that things are the way they are, but you start with
a feeling, or a belief: Erdos, Newton, Gallileo will be the first to
tell you this is the case. They saw evidence pointing towards
something being true, chose to consider the possibility of it being
true, and endevoured to prove OR DISPROVE it. That's all I do: I have
considered the possibility that Christ was real, and go through my life
trying to prove OR DISPROVE it. I will never be able to prove it
though, and at the moment I believe that I will never be able to
disprove it.
===>You obviously don't realize that the strongest, most serious
non-believers are those of us who THOROUGHLY investigated
the "Bible".
Ofcourse I realize that! I have a friend who was a philosophy major in
school--one of the top of his graduating class. He got an A- for
disproving God. He looked into it THOROUGHLY. And you know what?
He's the minister of my church.
Just because you
don't understand a certain scripture, or a certain phrase that's used,
and don't understand how it could be true, doesn't mean it's not.
===>That is ridiculous.
Ok, so if this is wrong, then the opposite is true:
===>Non sequitur.
You realize you are making no sense? All I did was the most simple
logical argument. I said it's not X, where X is A implied B. You said
that is false. Thus we have not(not(X)), or in other words, X, and
thus A must imply B.
RE your last paragraph, I never sought out in this thread to prove or
disprove the God of Christiantiy. I sought out to prove exactly the
above statement: that just because someone doesn't understand how a
scripture in the bible is true, doesn't make it false, or even further,
disprove God. What I asked you was to provide one (your best attempt)
to prove that there is something in the bible that is unreasonable, and
doesn't make sense, and I will investigate it. I have yet (in 6 years
of being a christian) to find something in the bible that makes no
sense, or is false. There are things I don't understand in the bible,
but NOTHING that is any kind of contradiction of the bible or God, and
nothing that is false. If I ever find something, I will seriously
consider leaving the church. I am a scientist, and if what I believe
to be true fails to be true, I must adjust my thinking as such.
Rob
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