| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John the Baptist Jr." |
| Date: |
08 Jan 2006 09:12:19 AM |
| Object: |
Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
This is one that we should all study to find its true meaning. The
difference in translation came up in my church education class. At my
conservative Baptist church our sunday school curriculum is written in
the KJV, NASB and NIV.
KJV
But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole
NIV
Gen. 8:9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there
was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in
the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back
to himself in the ark.
So what was the Dove a "her" or a "it"?
I will be soon looking at my Greek Interlinear.
John
--
John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God;
his name was John. He came as a witness to testify
concerning that light, so that through him all men
might believe. He himself was not the light; he came
only as a witness to the light.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
.
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| User: "vernon" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 09:34:37 AM |
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"John the Baptist Jr." <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:johnw_94020-C29633.07121908012006@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
This is one that we should all study to find its true meaning. The
difference in translation came up in my church education class. At my
conservative Baptist church our sunday school curriculum is written in
the KJV, NASB and NIV.
KJV
But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole
NIV
Gen. 8:9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there
was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in
the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back
to himself in the ark.
So what was the Dove a "her" or a "it"?
I will be soon looking at my Greek Interlinear.
Interlinears are nice but have no way of showing context or cultural
context.
Get an education.
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
.
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| User: "John the Baptist Jr." |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 08:30:41 PM |
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In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"vernon" <here@where.net> wrote:
Interlinears are nice but have no way of showing context or cultural
context.
If an Interlinear will not work, then what will?
Then what do you suggest? A Jewish bible?
Get an education.
I have one. But I did not take Greek.
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation. In your education your
probably learned that term and what it means. The NIV is the most
conservative of the dynamic free works. No its not a word for word work
and I never even hinted at this.
The NASB is a very close translation to the original and even closer
than the KJV.
John
--
John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God;
his name was John. He came as a witness to testify
concerning that light, so that through him all men
might believe. He himself was not the light; he came
only as a witness to the light.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
.
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| User: "vernon" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
09 Jan 2006 09:54:11 AM |
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"John the Baptist Jr." <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:johnw_94020-52C71B.18304108012006@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"vernon" <here@where.net> wrote:
Interlinears are nice but have no way of showing context or cultural
context.
If an Interlinear will not work, then what will?
Then what do you suggest? A Jewish bible?
Get an education.
I have one. But I did not take Greek.
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation. In your education your
probably learned that term and what it means. The NIV is the most
conservative of the dynamic free works. No its not a word for word work
and I never even hinted at this.
The NASB is a very close translation to the original and even closer
than the KJV.
O.K., so you missed the point and read commercial intros.
Fine.
.
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 02:52:51 PM |
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In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, "vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 04:11:00 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:52:51 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, "vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
No intelligent, educated Christian claims that the modern translations
are completely "error-free."
We claim that the "original autograph" was without error, and that the
translations we have today are essentially what was given to begin
with.
We limit our claims today to say that no essential teaching has been
altered or damaged.
Phar Lap strikes out yet again.
must be the demons.
john w
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 07:52:23 PM |
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In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
must be the demons.
john w
Off your meds again
PL retired long ago duckie. He is as stuffed as you are
And in the Melbourne Museum
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
09 Jan 2006 01:39:26 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:52:23 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
must be the demons.
john w
Off your meds again
Not on any meds or under psychiatric care yet, eh?
PL retired long ago
Sure he did!
wink wink.
john w
snip
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
09 Jan 2006 03:45:02 PM |
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In article <nn44s1tu7db93ek5649js8dnodofpur5g6@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:52:23 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
must be the demons.
john w
Off your meds again
Not on any meds or under psychiatric care yet, eh?
PL retired long ago
Sure he did!
wink wink.
john w
snip
I'll explain again for the mentally defective
PL was a name used as one of a stream of names - mostly referring to
horses to create a cyber character for the purpose of these forums. None
of these horses are the others
Anonymity is used because it is advisable on Usenet. Names are changed
because it excites morons like you a little less
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
10 Jan 2006 04:23:02 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:45:02 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <nn44s1tu7db93ek5649js8dnodofpur5g6@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:52:23 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
must be the demons.
john w
Off your meds again
Not on any meds or under psychiatric care yet, eh?
PL retired long ago
Sure he did!
wink wink.
john w
snip
I'll explain again for the mentally defective
PL was a name used as one of a stream of names - mostly referring to
horses to create a cyber character for the purpose of these forums. None
of these horses are the others
And I'll AGAIN explain to you-- the mentally defective demoniac--
something I explained awhile back.
I call you PL to let you know I know who you are, demoniac.
The nom you were using when I first smelled you was Phar Lap. Someone
dubbed you "PL", and I liked it, since I hate to type.
you can nym shift 1,0000000000 times in the next month, and I'll still
call you PL, demoniac.
Anonymity is used because it is advisable on Usenet.
Rubbish! MANY of us are known,and we use our names. You are
anonymous because you are a coward.
john w
Names are changed
because it excites morons like you a little less
And you have no CLUE what excites me.
You being not in here would be a start, demoniac.
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
11 Jan 2006 03:37:24 PM |
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In article <pi27s1tmqafqpki04ofhek41j98qebnskj@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
The nom you were using when I first smelled you was Phar Lap. Someone
dubbed you "PL", and I liked it, since I hate to type.
you can nym shift 1,0000000000 times in the next month, and I'll still
call you PL, demoniac.
Do what you like - I don't change my sig to hide myself since I always
announce the change, particularly to you in an answer to one of your
idiotic blurbs. I'll be changing it again soon
But for Christ's sake get back on your antipsychotic meds before you
really hurt someone
Call the doctor and book an appointment now
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
11 Jan 2006 03:37:49 PM |
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and book yourself in for a few weeks
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 07:51:19 PM |
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In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:52:51 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, "vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
No intelligent, educated Christian claims that the modern translations
are completely "error-free."
We claim that the "original autograph" was without error, and that the
translations we have today are essentially what was given to begin
with.
We limit our claims today to say that no essential teaching has been
altered or damaged.
Oh pigs arse!
There are NO originals
All codices are copies of copies of copies some having passed through
language barriers
For example it is generally accepted that Jesuses immediate circle were
Aramaic speakers and yet the closest we have to "original documents" and
"testimony" are in Greek
Errant is as errant does
You are full of crap and far closer to being a "demonic liar" than anyone
else on this line. Every essential teaching of Jesus has been altered or
damaged and it is time christianity grasped that fact
Everything is based on Paul's Greek written speculations
+
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
09 Jan 2006 01:38:24 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:51:19 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:52:51 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, "vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
No intelligent, educated Christian claims that the modern translations
are completely "error-free."
We claim that the "original autograph" was without error, and that the
translations we have today are essentially what was given to begin
with.
We limit our claims today to say that no essential teaching has been
altered or damaged.
Oh pigs arse!
There are NO originals
??????????????????????????
You are evidently suffering reading deficiencies.
There were the original mms the Old Testament authors and scribes
penned/chiseled/carved.
And there were the original mms the New Testament authors and scribes
penned/chiseled/carved.
All codices are copies of copies of copies some having passed through
language barriers
And I'd MUCH sooner believe a scholar than a demon possessed atheist
(that means YOU).
For example it is
What on EARTH makes you think I'd read anything YOU wrote?
chuckle.
You and your demons DO Crack me UP!
chuckle.
.
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
09 Jan 2006 03:42:17 PM |
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In article <2j44s1976uue7u4cshirqguctc0v9mlhgs@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:51:19 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:52:51 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>, "vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
No intelligent, educated Christian claims that the modern translations
are completely "error-free."
We claim that the "original autograph" was without error, and that the
translations we have today are essentially what was given to begin
with.
We limit our claims today to say that no essential teaching has been
altered or damaged.
Oh pigs arse!
There are NO originals
??????????????????????????
You are evidently suffering reading deficiencies.
There were the original mms the Old Testament authors and scribes
penned/chiseled/carved.
You get stupider
By definition there were "original manuscripts" - but they have been lost,
in part because copiers tore up previous versions as part of the act of
copying.
What we have is copies of copies etc of documents probably written down in
about 400 to 600 BC - these "originals' themselves being written down some
1000years and more after the supposed dates of the events they describe
The are NO originals - barely a scrap exists of scriptural documents from
400BC - let alone earlier
.
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
10 Jan 2006 01:03:17 PM |
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john w wrote in message <2j44s1976uue7u4cshirqguctc0v9mlhgs@4ax.com>...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:51:19 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <fc33s114vk100n7jm19vomf3s6q7rbd3qa@4ax.com>, john w
<johnw@yow.how> wrote:
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:52:51 +1100,
(Prometea) wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
In article <43c13104$0$23804$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
"vernon"
<here@where.net> wrote:
NIV never claims to be literal, word for word and neither does the
KJV.
Which - of course means they cannot be "inerrant"
KJV is a fairly literal translation of the original autograph.
Real unaltered texts are: Massoretic text of the Jews Old Testament.
Byzantine or textus receptus (also called majority text) New Testament.
KJV is translated from these.
The real bible text itself claims to be inerant.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken;
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a
furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psalms 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from
this generation for ever.
If you think you have found any inconsistencies in the KJV, it is probably
because you don't understand it correctly. It contains many figures of
speech, figurative language, and words that have more than one meaning and
the proper definition much be matched to the context of the argument the
word is found in.
No intelligent, educated Christian claims that the modern translations
are completely "error-free."
The modern translations, mostly have a corrupted Alexandrian text mixed in
them. The words have been changed.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp
Partial List of Corrupt New Versions
AMP Amplified Version ASV American Standard Version CEV Contemporary English
Version KJ21 21st Century King James Version NAB New American Bible (RC)
NASB New American Standard Bible NCV New Century Version NIV New
International Version NIVI New International Version Inclusive NKJV New King
James Version NLT New Living Translation (The Book) NRSV New Revised
Standard Version RSV Revised Standard Version RV Revised Version TEV Today's
English Version (Good News For Modern Man)
The manuscripts from which the textus receptus was taken are the majority of
the Greek manuscripts which agree with each other and have been accepted by
Bible believing Christians down through the centuries. The King James was
translated from these manuscripts. There are 5,309 surviving Greek
manuscripts that contain all or part of the New Testament. These manuscripts
agree together 95% of the time. The other 5% accounts for the differences
between the King James and the modern versions. The textus receptus, King
James, does not include the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts from
Alexandrian Egypt; these are the corrupted manuscripts in question.
Manuscripts from which the modern versions are translated includes the
textus receptus plus the vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. The modern
versions had to use the textus receptus since it contains the majority of
the surviving Greek manuscripts. The problem is that when the textus
receptus disagreed with the vaticanus or sainaiticus, they preferred these
corrupted manuscripts over the textus receptus. That accounts for the 5%
corruption in the modern versions. Where the textus receptus and the
vaticanus and sinaiticus do not agree, it is because Marcion, 120 - 160 AD
or Origin 184 - 254 AD [or whoever] corrupted those two manuscripts. (The
vaticanus and sinaiticus disagree with each other over 3000 times in the
gospels alone.)
The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts agree together. They have been
passed down through the centuries by true Bible believing Christians. In
1516 Erasmus compiled and printed the Greek (textus receptus) the received
text, from these manuscripts. This is the text that the protestants of the
reformation knew to be the Word of God, from which the King James Bible was
translated.
John Burgon, who spent years studying the texts wrote:
Sinaiticus is extremely unreliable. On many occasions, 10, 20, 30, 40, words
are dropped through very carelessness. Letters, words or whole sentences are
frequently written twice over or begun and immediately cancelled. A whole
clause omitted, because it happens to end in the words of the clause
preceeding happens 115 times in the New Testament.
The above is excerpts from the book:
Lets Weigh the Evidence: Which Bible is the Real Word of God? By Barry
Burton. Find it here:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0184.asp
There have been several editions (to update language usage), but no
revisions, of the King James bible.
We claim that the "original autograph" was without error, and that the
translations we have today are essentially what was given to begin
with.
We limit our claims today to say that no essential teaching has been
altered or damaged.
Oh pigs arse!
There are NO originals
??????????????????????????
You are evidently suffering reading deficiencies.
There were the original mms the Old Testament authors and scribes
penned/chiseled/carved.
And there were the original mms the New Testament authors and scribes
penned/chiseled/carved.
All codices are copies of copies of copies some having passed through
language barriers
And I'd MUCH sooner believe a scholar than a demon possessed atheist
(that means YOU).
For example it is
What on EARTH makes you think I'd read anything YOU wrote?
chuckle.
You and your demons DO Crack me UP!
chuckle.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Prometea" |
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| Title: Re: Bible verse of the day Gen 8:9 |
08 Jan 2006 02:52:05 PM |
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In article
<johnw_94020-C29633.07121908012006@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, "John
the Baptist Jr." <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is one that we should all study to find its true meaning. The
difference in translation came up in my church education class. At my
conservative Baptist church our sunday school curriculum is written in
the KJV, NASB and NIV.
KJV
But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole
NIV
Gen. 8:9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there
was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in
the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back
to himself in the ark.
So what was the Dove a "her" or a "it"?
I will be soon looking at my Greek Interlinear.
John
English - not having gender for objects and most animals - legitimately
translates definite articles according to its own stylistic rules
These change over time
The famous example is Mark Twain's imagined translation from German
Where is the turnip? - She is in the kitchen
Where is the beautiful English maiden? - It has gone to the opera
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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