| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Mark Earnest" |
| Date: |
22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 PM |
| Object: |
Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Atheists know that when the body is gone, the person does not exist in the
truest sense of the word. That is true, because how can one fully exist
without a body,
even if a spirit in some sense?
And Christians know that the spirit continues after death; they just do not
know that the continuation is not a full state of being alive.
After death, we exist, and yet we do not exist.
No wonder Christians and atheists are able to coexist in the work world.
The ironies of life.
.
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 08:45:06 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
Don't you think that the gods sometimes get lonely?
When they are forgotten, they are hardly gods at all.
This assumes that the power of a deity is proportional to the number
of people who believe in it.
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:04:06 PM |
|
|
"Christopher Benson-Manica" <ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote in message
news:cqdbfi$d16$7@chessie.cirr.com...
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
Don't you think that the gods sometimes get lonely?
When they are forgotten, they are hardly gods at all.
This assumes that the power of a deity is proportional to the number
of people who believe in it.
Not power; deities always have that. But they do not fully exist in every
sense
when they are forgotten. They are not quite as happy, in other words.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 11:30:49 AM |
|
|
Christopher Benson-Manica wrote:
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
Don't you think that the gods sometimes get lonely?
When they are forgotten, they are hardly gods at all.
This assumes that the power of a deity is proportional to the number
of people who believe in it.
===>Proportional to the POWER OF those believers. -- L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? - |
23 Dec 2004 11:25:32 AM |
|
|
Mark Earnest wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
===>If you are a Pantheist, "GOD" has always been "there"
and here and everywhere. No need for any proof.
So, it really depends on what you mean by "GOD".
If you mean ALL THERE IS or ever was or ever will be,
then you have no problem.
If you mean some lesser entity, such as the "creator",
then you do have some problems, because it is just an
ASPECT of the Pantheist "GOD", which people separate
and anthropomorphize into some extra-cosmic super-natural
being, or even worse, a Roman emperor of the man from Galilee. -- L.
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to truly
be.
So in a sense, the atheists are right.
God will one day be known, however, and then he will finally be, the way he
wants to fully be. It will be kind of like being in heaven for the first
time, relatively speaking, even for the Almighty, which is kind of like
just starting to exist.
See Revelation 12 for illustration of the child that gets caught up to
heaven.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 08:23:19 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 08:34:12 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether or
not he is known.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
People are united as one, so they need to be known to function fully, to be
there at all.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 08:46:25 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
So a person who retreats to solitude in the Himalayas ceases to "fully
be"?
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:02:11 PM |
|
|
"Christopher Benson-Manica" <ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote in message
news:cqdbi1$d16$8@chessie.cirr.com...
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
So a person who retreats to solitude in the Himalayas ceases to "fully
be"?
No, because his self discovery is leading to him one day being well known.
His self discovery will benefit others. Maybe not until he is resurrected
some day, but it will happen.
..
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:06:10 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
No, because his self discovery is leading to him one day being well known.
But in the meantime, he is not well-known. Therefore, by your
statements, he does not "fully exist".
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:16:35 PM |
|
|
"Christopher Benson-Manica" <ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote in message
news:cqdcn2$d5a$3@chessie.cirr.com...
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
No, because his self discovery is leading to him one day being well
known.
But in the meantime, he is not well-known. Therefore, by your
statements, he does not "fully exist".
You've got that one right. Ever felt really alone? You feel as if you're
not there at all. Not even alive.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:23:34 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
You've got that one right. Ever felt really alone? You feel as if you're
not there at all. Not even alive.
You seem to be claiming that feeling "alive", or (to coin a term)
"existful", depends on interacting with other people. I submit from
personal experience that the claim is untrue.
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 10:12:21 PM |
|
|
"Christopher Benson-Manica" <ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote in message
news:cqddnm$d6n$1@chessie.cirr.com...
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
You've got that one right. Ever felt really alone? You feel as if
you're
not there at all. Not even alive.
You seem to be claiming that feeling "alive", or (to coin a term)
"existful", depends on interacting with other people. I submit from
personal experience that the claim is untrue.
In a way you are right, because when does one really know of his existence
more than when he does not feel well?
That is because a person does exist even when he does not exist.
Where the first "exist" means "to be there," and second "exist"
means "to manifest one's potential to others, and be known."
Hence how atheists and Christians can coexist...by each having their
own measure of knowledge of reality.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 08:42:22 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:34:12 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether or
not he is known.
So you say. You're being evasive. I made a specific
point that had nothing to do with desire.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
We were discussing God, not people.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:14:15 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:n2cks0ljsefmmki47fu16auuvu1hiqm2a1@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:34:12 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to
truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether or
not he is known.
So you say. You're being evasive. I made a specific
point that had nothing to do with desire.
The point is that Big Foot is probably not a social creature, and so does
not need to be known, as we humans do.
And even if he did need to be known, he probably will be some day, when he
is discovered. On such a day, if Big foot were that way, he would finally
fully exist.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
We were discussing God, not people.
Sorry, forgot to stick the premise in.
Man is in God's image. If we need to be known, so does God.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:20:53 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Mark Earnest <mark45@spamlessairmail.net> wrote:
Man is in God's image. If we need to be known, so does God.
Yes, given your "full existence" construct, which seems to me as
useless as Heidegger's elaborate conception of "being".
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 08:08:37 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:14:15 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:n2cks0ljsefmmki47fu16auuvu1hiqm2a1@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:34:12 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to
truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether or
not he is known.
So you say. You're being evasive. I made a specific
point that had nothing to do with desire.
The point is that Big Foot is probably not a social creature, and so does
not need to be known, as we humans do.
The point is that you are avoiding the point, when you
have been shown to be in error.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 03:38:47 PM |
|
|
<snip>
The point is that you are avoiding the point, when you
have been shown to be in error.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Well Davie, you should know all about that, it is your favorite ploy. You
invented it, you moron!
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 08:58:33 AM |
|
|
In talk.atheism Pastor Dave <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
The point is that you are avoiding the point, when you
have been shown to be in error.
Black hole calling pure white snow "black."
--
Mike
W hat atheism: a non-prophet organization...
W ould
J enna
D rink?
-------------------------------
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we," George W. "Shrub" Bush Aug 5, 2004
-------------------------------
The only product that Micro$oft could produce that *wouldn't* suck would be a
vacuum cleaner..
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Raymond Griffith" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 09:54:50 PM |
|
|
in article cqdao1$at7@library1.airnews.net, Mark Earnest at
mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net wrote on 12/22/04 9:34 PM:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether or
not he is known.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
This is patent nonsense. Furthermore, it is insulting.
A person who is alive IS, whether anyone knows him or not. There are a lot
of homeless people out there who practically no one knows. Does this mean
that they do not fully exist?
People are united as one, so they need to be known to function fully, to be
there at all.
Ahh, so the children who are forgotten in other lands just aren't there at
all? Only the ones who are "fully functional" exist?
Many have died forgotten and alone without anything to make them noteworthy.
Yet they existed.
You have a sick philosophy. I hope that you will realize it, renounce it,
and apologize. If you don't, I hope you are put in a position where you are
forgotten and unknown, and then remember that by your own definition you
don't exist.
Regards,
Raymond E. Griffith
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark Earnest" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 10:16:09 PM |
|
|
"Raymond Griffith" <tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:BDEFABBA.6BD1%tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net...
in article cqdao1$at7@library1.airnews.net, Mark Earnest at
mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net wrote on 12/22/04 9:34 PM:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and
the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to
truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether
or
not he is known.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
This is patent nonsense. Furthermore, it is insulting.
A person who is alive IS, whether anyone knows him or not. There are a lot
of homeless people out there who practically no one knows. Does this mean
that they do not fully exist?
In a way. The U.S. army has a slogan, "Be all you can be."
Homeless people exist in the sense of strictly being there,
but you can hardly call what they are doing living, a true meaning of
existence,
can you?
.
|
|
|
| User: "?????" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 12:47:14 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:16:09 -0600, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote:
"Raymond Griffith" <tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:BDEFABBA.6BD1%tiffirgrReverse@ctc.net...
in article cqdao1$at7@library1.airnews.net, Mark Earnest at
mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net wrote on 12/22/04 9:34 PM:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osaks0tu7qq18fgk7fk98hntlchj2nvspc@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:54:55 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their
views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and
the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and
valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
In a way, God's existence does have to be proven for him to fully "be
there."
Every being requires to be known to fully exist.
It doesn't have to be proved. Not in a test tube
anyway. If you were able to stick God in a test tube,
that would mean you're God and you would be a pretty
weak god. :)
This goes under the assumption that one has to fully be in order to
truly
be.
One can be in order and fully be and not be proved to
exist. For example, what if one day we trap a Bigfoot.
Is he proved to exist now? No. But assuming one day
he was, does that mean that all the time before, he
didn't exist, just because we had not yet proved it.
Bigfoot is not a known social creature. Maybe he does not care whether
or
not he is known.
But people are social creatures, and so they require being known to fully
be.
This is patent nonsense. Furthermore, it is insulting.
A person who is alive IS, whether anyone knows him or not. There are a lot
of homeless people out there who practically no one knows. Does this mean
that they do not fully exist?
In a way. The U.S. army has a slogan, "Be all you can be."
Homeless people exist in the sense of strictly being there,
but you can hardly call what they are doing living, a true meaning of
existence,
can you?
What a incredibility stupid statement, if people believe in some one
existing, then that person exist. However some lonely person that no
one knows, doesn't exist. Hey Osama bin Laden doesn't exist because
Dubya has no idea where he is. But Dubya believes he exist so he does
exist, unless he died and no one has been told. Of course the orphan
of the Iraqi killed by Dubya's army don't exist, because we ignore
them.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
22 Dec 2004 07:33:46 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2v4ks0ttp5do4rdf6vtgdissk6kbii70ub@4ax.com...
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:41:23 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Mark Earnest"
<mark45@SPAMLESSairmail.net> pontificated:
It may seem like atheists and Christians cannot coexist, since their views
on reality are so different. One has to see it to believe it, and the
other
has to believe it to see it.
But I think that Christians and atheists just have to different and valid
perspectives of the same reality.
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Sorry, they can't both be valid.
That's why there is no god!
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 05:29:49 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:40:31 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
Christian = There is a God.
Atheist = There is no God.
Wrong with both definitions!
As you've been told many times.
Debate using your own private and prejudiced definitions
only proves that you're a bigot 'Pastor'.
## Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 06:18:14 AM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:
Wrong with both definitions!
An atheist who will not answer the question "Is there a deity?" with
"No" is IMHO a very poor atheist.
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 06:42:32 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:14 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Benson-Manica
<ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
Wrong with both definitions!
An atheist who will not answer the question "Is there a deity?" with
"No" is IMHO a very poor atheist.
I would answer "Is there a deity?" with
"I don't know, and neither do you!
But personally I don't believe in a deity."
The Bible says that "A fool in his heart says there is no God," and I
quite agree. To say that is as foolish as it is to say there is a God.
Either stance is to proclaim knowledge you don't posess.
## Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 07:56:05 AM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:
I would answer "Is there a deity?" with
"I don't know, and neither do you!
Welcome to being agnostic.
But personally I don't believe in a deity."
I don't believe in a deity because such things do not exist.
The Bible says that "A fool in his heart says there is no God," and I
quite agree. To say that is as foolish as it is to say there is a God.
Either stance is to proclaim knowledge you don't posess.
So you don't know that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus do not exist?
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 08:16:36 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:56:05 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Benson-Manica
<ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
I would answer "Is there a deity?" with
"I don't know, and neither do you!
Welcome to being agnostic.
Sure! I am first and foremost an agnostic. But agnosticism is not a
way-station between atheism and theism. Agnosticm is about what you
think it is possible to know. Theism/atheism is about what you choose
to believe.
But personally I don't believe in a deity."
I'm an agnostic-atheist.
I don't believe in a deity because such things do not exist.
That makes you a gnostic-atheist. You think you know. I don't!
The Bible says that "A fool in his heart says there is no God," and I
quite agree. To say that is as foolish as it is to say there is a God.
Either stance is to proclaim knowledge you don't posess.
So you don't know that the tooth fairy and Santa Claus do not exist?
Nope. I doubt they do as much as I doubt the God of the Bible exists,
but I'm not so foolish as to think I can prove it!
How would you go about disproving the tooth fairy? Or leprechauns?
Or any other supernatural spook?
## I was born agnostic, and I'll diagnostic...
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher Benson-Manica" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 02:53:23 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:
How would you go about disproving the tooth fairy? Or leprechauns?
Or any other supernatural spook?
How do you know you exist, then? Are you agnostic with respect to
your own existence?
--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cyberspace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 03:35:03 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:53:23 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Benson-Manica
<ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
How would you go about disproving the tooth fairy? Or leprechauns?
Or any other supernatural spook?
How do you know you exist, then? Are you agnostic with respect to
your own existence?
No, it is only supernatural existences that I and science question.
In the natural world the existence of things is testable. In the
(possibly non-existent) world of the supernatural nothing is testable,
verifiable or provable. Therefor science wants nothing to do with it
even if it does exist.
## Cogito ergo dim sum: I think, therefor, this are pork ball
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tim McGaughy" |
|
| Title: Re: Can Christians and Atheists Coexist? |
23 Dec 2004 09:58:40 PM |
|
|
in article 70fls0p9en14evft05t51q2ltl3g5fv58f@4ax.com, John Ings at
nodamned@spam.org wrote on 12/23/04 6:42 AM:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:18:14 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Benson-Manica
<ataru@nospam.cyberspace.org> wrote:
Wrong with both definitions!
An atheist who will not answer the question "Is there a deity?" with
"No" is IMHO a very poor atheist.
I would answer "Is there a deity?" with
"I don't know, and neither do you!
But personally I don't believe in a deity."
That would make you an agnostic, not an atheist.
The Bible says that "A fool in his heart says there is no God," and I
quite agree. To say that is as foolish as it is to say there is a God.
Either stance is to proclaim knowledge you don't posess.
Yep.
Just as a fool in his hear says there is no Wonko the magic elf.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
