| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Paul Rivera" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2005 10:59:09 AM |
| Object: |
Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the
mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. I told you
before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being
absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other,
that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye seek a proof of Christ
speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of two or three
witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any witnesses. So is he saying that
the first time he spoke with them ("I told you before") is one witness, this
letter (to the Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives ("the third time I am
coming to you") it will be the third witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since ye seek a
proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses the
proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any charge must be
sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses. I warned those who
sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did
when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare
them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three
witnesses shall every matter be established. I have declared beforehand, and
I say beforehand as present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not
spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it appears as if
though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm his status to the same
people a second time, and is advising them to consider this epistle as a
warning before he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't
challenge my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear you
down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order that WHEN I COME I
may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has
given me for building up and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since you desire
proof that Christ is speaking in me"
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
26 Jan 2005 04:49:02 PM |
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"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:x%PJd.294$yF.80@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word
be established. I told you before, and foretell you, as if I
were present, the second time; and being absent now I write
to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other,
that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye seek a
proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not
weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of
two or three witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any
witnesses. So is he saying that the first time he spoke with
them ("I told you before") is one witness, this letter (to the
Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives
("the third time I am coming to you") it will be the third
witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since
ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses the proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he
be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any
charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three
witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the
others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when
present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not
spare them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking
in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall every matter be established.
I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as
present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again
I will not spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking
in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it
appears as if though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm
his status to the same people a second time, and is
advising them to consider this epistle as a warning before
he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't challenge
my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear
you down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order
that WHEN I COME I may not have to be severe in my use
of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up
and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since
you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me"
I believe that your analysis of the passage is correct: i.e. Paul sees
himself as "his own three witnesses."
There is another problem with 2 Corinthians which has bothered scholars for
years. That is the sudden change in mood between chapters 1-9 and 10-13.
In fact, while the quote above speaks of Paul making another visit to the
Corinthians, in chapter 1, Paul states that he has changed his mind to make
another visit.
Most scholars have concluded that chapters 10-13 were written earlier than
1-9 and are in fact part of the letter which Paul makes reference to in 2:9.
When Paul wrote 10-13 that he was obviously troubled with news about what
was happening in Corinth and planned a visit there. Paul then became
confident with the encouraging report from the arrival of Titus (7:6,)
therefore the friendly letter 1-9, where Paul cancelled his plans for a
third visit.
--
Wax
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
26 Jan 2005 06:47:30 PM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:x%PJd.294$yF.80@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word
be established. I told you before, and foretell you, as if I
were present, the second time; and being absent now I write
to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other,
that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye seek a
proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not
weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of
two or three witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any
witnesses. So is he saying that the first time he spoke with
them ("I told you before") is one witness, this letter (to the
Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives
("the third time I am coming to you") it will be the third
witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since
ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses the proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he
be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any
charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three
witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the
others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when
present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not
spare them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking
in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall every matter be established.
I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as
present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again
I will not spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking
in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it
appears as if though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm
his status to the same people a second time, and is
advising them to consider this epistle as a warning before
he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't challenge
my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear
you down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order
that WHEN I COME I may not have to be severe in my use
of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up
and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since
you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me"
I believe that your analysis of the passage is correct: i.e. Paul sees
himself as "his own three witnesses."
There is another problem with 2 Corinthians which has bothered scholars for
years. That is the sudden change in mood between chapters 1-9 and 10-13.
In fact, while the quote above speaks of Paul making another visit to the
Corinthians, in chapter 1, Paul states that he has changed his mind to make
another visit.
Most scholars have concluded that chapters 10-13 were written earlier than
1-9 and are in fact part of the letter which Paul makes reference to in 2:9.
When Paul wrote 10-13 that he was obviously troubled with news about what
was happening in Corinth and planned a visit there. Paul then became
confident with the encouraging report from the arrival of Titus (7:6,)
therefore the friendly letter 1-9, where Paul cancelled his plans for a
third visit.
===>But did have a second coming? -- L.
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 04:37:48 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every
word be established. I told you before, and foretell you,
as if I were present, the second time; and being absent
now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to
all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye
seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-
ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of
two or three witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any
witnesses. So is he saying that the first time he spoke with
them ("I told you before") is one witness, this letter (to the
Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives
("the third time I am coming to you") it will be the third
witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since
ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses the proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he
be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any
charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three
witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the
others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when
present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not
spare them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking
in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall every matter be established.
I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as
present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again
I will not spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking
in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it
appears as if though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm
his status to the same people a second time, and is
advising them to consider this epistle as a warning before
he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't challenge
my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear
you down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order
that WHEN I COME I may not have to be severe in my use
of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up
and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since
you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me"
I believe that your analysis of the passage is correct: i.e.
Paul sees himself as "his own three witnesses."
There is another problem with 2 Corinthians which has
bothered scholars for years. That is the sudden change in
mood between chapters 1-9 and 10-13. In fact, while
the quote above speaks of Paul making another visit to
the Corinthians, in chapter 1, Paul states that he has
changed his mind to make another visit.
Most scholars have concluded that chapters 10-13
were written earlier than 1-9 and are in fact part of the
letter which Paul makes reference to in 2:9.
When Paul wrote 10-13 that he was obviously troubled
with news about what was happening in Corinth and
planned a visit there. Paul then became confident with
the encouraging report from the arrival of Titus (7:6,)
therefore the friendly letter 1-9, where Paul cancelled
his plans for a third visit.
===>But did have a second coming? -- L.
There are other unanswered questions regarding the "severe" chapters of 2
Corinthians, i.e. chapters 10-13. The most intriguing is the nature of
Paul's "thorn in the flesh" by which he was afflicted (12:7.)
Another question is the identity of the "super apostles" whom Paul claims he
is not inferior to (11:3 and 12:11.) Scholars have suggested three
possibilities:
1: Apostles from the church in Jerusalem.
2: Christian Gnostics.
3: Paul's opponents in Corinth.
I favor the first possibility. Paul had had problems with such apostles
before, e.g. Gal 2:4, 11-14.
--
Wax
.
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| User: "Paul Rivera" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 04:50:08 PM |
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"Weatherwax" <Weatherwax@worldnet.net> wrote in message
news:03eKd.31991$8u5.29564@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every
word be established. I told you before, and foretell you,
as if I were present, the second time; and being absent
now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to
all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye
seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-
ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of
two or three witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any
witnesses. So is he saying that the first time he spoke with
them ("I told you before") is one witness, this letter (to the
Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives
("the third time I am coming to you") it will be the third
witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since
ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses the proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he
be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any
charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three
witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the
others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when
present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not
spare them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking
in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall every matter be established.
I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as
present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again
I will not spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking
in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it
appears as if though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm
his status to the same people a second time, and is
advising them to consider this epistle as a warning before
he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't challenge
my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear
you down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order
that WHEN I COME I may not have to be severe in my use
of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up
and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since
you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me"
I believe that your analysis of the passage is correct: i.e.
Paul sees himself as "his own three witnesses."
There is another problem with 2 Corinthians which has
bothered scholars for years. That is the sudden change in
mood between chapters 1-9 and 10-13. In fact, while
the quote above speaks of Paul making another visit to
the Corinthians, in chapter 1, Paul states that he has
changed his mind to make another visit.
Most scholars have concluded that chapters 10-13
were written earlier than 1-9 and are in fact part of the
letter which Paul makes reference to in 2:9.
When Paul wrote 10-13 that he was obviously troubled
with news about what was happening in Corinth and
planned a visit there. Paul then became confident with
the encouraging report from the arrival of Titus (7:6,)
therefore the friendly letter 1-9, where Paul cancelled
his plans for a third visit.
===>But did have a second coming? -- L.
There are other unanswered questions regarding the "severe" chapters of 2
Corinthians, i.e. chapters 10-13. The most intriguing is the nature of
Paul's "thorn in the flesh" by which he was afflicted (12:7.)
Another question is the identity of the "super apostles" whom Paul claims
he
is not inferior to (11:3 and 12:11.) Scholars have suggested three
possibilities:
1: Apostles from the church in Jerusalem.
2: Christian Gnostics.
3: Paul's opponents in Corinth.
I favor the first possibility. Paul had had problems with such apostles
before, e.g. Gal 2:4, 11-14.
--
Wax
The New Jerusalem has 12 foundations, each foundation is named after one of
THE Twelve Apostles. Paul is inferior to these 12, as Christ never said to
anyone other than the 12, that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12
tribes. In the beginning of Acts, the Holy Spirit chose Matthias to replace
Judas, hence, if there is ever any question as to who sits on the 12th
throne, it isn't Paul, since nowhere do we find it written that Paul will
replace Judas.
.
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| User: "Weatherwax" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 09:32:56 PM |
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"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote in
The New Jerusalem has 12 foundations, each foundation
is named after one of THE Twelve Apostles. Paul is inferior
to these 12, as Christ never said to anyone other than the
12, that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12
tribes. In the beginning of Acts, the Holy Spirit chose
Matthias to replace Judas, hence, if there is ever any
question as to who sits on the 12th throne, it isn't Paul,
since nowhere do we find it written that Paul will replace
Judas.
That made no difference to Paul. In Galatians 1-2 Paul makes it clear that
the apostles in Jerusalem added nothing to his teaching, did not exercise
authority over him, and it made no difference to him, or God, that Peter,
James and John were pillars of the church.
As far as Matthias and the other apostles, we hear almost nothing about them
after the first chapter of Acts.
--
Wax
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 06:24:00 PM |
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Weatherwax wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
Weatherwax wrote:
"Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com> wrote
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to
you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every
word be established. I told you before, and foretell you,
as if I were present, the second time; and being absent
now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to
all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye
seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-
ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of
two or three witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any
witnesses. So is he saying that the first time he spoke with
them ("I told you before") is one witness, this letter (to the
Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives
("the third time I am coming to you") it will be the third
witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since
ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3
witnesses the proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he
be his own three witnesses ?
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any
charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three
witnesses. I warned those who sinned before and all the
others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when
present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not
spare them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking
in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall every matter be established.
I have declared beforehand, and I say beforehand as
present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again
I will not spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking
in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it
appears as if though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm
his status to the same people a second time, and is
advising them to consider this epistle as a warning before
he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't challenge
my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear
you down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order
that WHEN I COME I may not have to be severe in my use
of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up
and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since
you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me"
I believe that your analysis of the passage is correct: i.e.
Paul sees himself as "his own three witnesses."
There is another problem with 2 Corinthians which has
bothered scholars for years. That is the sudden change in
mood between chapters 1-9 and 10-13. In fact, while
the quote above speaks of Paul making another visit to
the Corinthians, in chapter 1, Paul states that he has
changed his mind to make another visit.
Most scholars have concluded that chapters 10-13
were written earlier than 1-9 and are in fact part of the
letter which Paul makes reference to in 2:9.
When Paul wrote 10-13 that he was obviously troubled
with news about what was happening in Corinth and
planned a visit there. Paul then became confident with
the encouraging report from the arrival of Titus (7:6,)
therefore the friendly letter 1-9, where Paul cancelled
his plans for a third visit.
===>But did have a second coming? -- L.
There are other unanswered questions regarding the "severe" chapters of 2
Corinthians, i.e. chapters 10-13. The most intriguing is the nature of
Paul's "thorn in the flesh" by which he was afflicted (12:7.)
===>It looks like schizophrenia (hearing voices, having visions,
believing that a god is speaking through him, etc.)
Another question is the identity of the "super apostles" whom Paul claims he
is not inferior to (11:3 and 12:11.) Scholars have suggested three
possibilities:
1: Apostles from the church in Jerusalem.
2: Christian Gnostics.
3: Paul's opponents in Corinth.
I favor the first possibility. Paul had had problems with such apostles
before, e.g. Gal 2:4, 11-14.
===>You can safely ignore the other two alternatives.
They are proposed by those who try to deny the conflict between
Saul/Paul and the original "Jesus people", i.e. those gathered around
James the brother of Jesus. -- L.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 09:23:56 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:59:09 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com>
spake thusly:
2 Corinthians 13:1-3 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the
mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. I told you
before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being
absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other,
that, if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye seek a proof of Christ
speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
In the above verses, Paul uses the phrase, "In the mouth of two or three
witnesses ...", but he doesn't mention any witnesses. So is he saying that
the first time he spoke with them ("I told you before") is one witness, this
letter (to the Corinthians) is the second witness ("and foretell you, as if
I were present, the second time"), and when he arrives ("the third time I am
coming to you") it will be the third witness ?
And how does all of this relate to his last statement: "Since ye seek a
proof of Christ speaking in me ..."
See below.
Is the "... word [to] be established" by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses the
proof of Christ speaking in him ? If so, can he be his own three witnesses ?
See below.
RSV - This is the third time I am coming to you. Any charge must be
sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses. I warned those who
sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did
when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare
them-- since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. ...
Darby - This third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three
witnesses shall every matter be established. I have declared beforehand, and
I say beforehand as present the second time, and now absent, to those that
have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not
spare. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me ...
After reading the rest of that chapter using the RSV, it appears as if
though Paul is quite upset at having to confirm his status to the same
people a second time, and is advising them to consider this epistle as a
warning before he gets there, as if to say, "when I get there, don't
challenge my credentials again, or I will use the power of God to tear you
down".
Verse 10 "I write this while I am away from you, in order that WHEN I COME I
may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has
given me for building up and not for tearing down."
Verse 2-3 "... if I come again I will not spare them-- since you desire
proof that Christ is speaking in me"
As to the "two or three witnesses", Paul discusses them
as witnesses themselves (vs5-6,14). If hands were laid
on them and they received the Holy Ghost and are of the
church, then they witness themselves that he speaks the
truth. And when God works miracles through him, the
miracles are a witness from God. God Himself is a
witness, since Paul can do nothing of himself, as a
human. And there you have two other witnesses.
___
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "Paul Rivera" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 11:10:50 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:oe1iv01upahtd6f4iuk1j9nav7fqp0op7r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:59:09 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com>
spake thusly:
*--SNIP--*
As to the "two or three witnesses", Paul discusses them
as witnesses themselves (vs5-6,14). If hands were laid
on them and they received the Holy Ghost and are of the
church, then they witness themselves that he speaks the
truth. And when God works miracles through him, the
miracles are a witness from God. God Himself is a
witness, since Paul can do nothing of himself, as a
human. And there you have two other witnesses.
___
Pastor Dave Raymond
I see, so the same people which question Christ speaking in Paul are
witnesses that Christ speaks in Paul.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? |
27 Jan 2005 11:49:25 AM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:10:50 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com>
spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:oe1iv01upahtd6f4iuk1j9nav7fqp0op7r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:59:09 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com>
spake thusly:
*--SNIP--*
As to the "two or three witnesses", Paul discusses them
as witnesses themselves (vs5-6,14). If hands were laid
on them and they received the Holy Ghost and are of the
church, then they witness themselves that he speaks the
truth. And when God works miracles through him, the
miracles are a witness from God. God Himself is a
witness, since Paul can do nothing of himself, as a
human. And there you have two other witnesses.
___
Pastor Dave Raymond
I see, so the same people which question Christ speaking in Paul are
witnesses that Christ speaks in Paul.
You are missing the point. Let me put it to you this
way...
If you are converted and I lay hands on you and you
receive the Holy Ghost, does it make sense for you to
question me, as to whether or not I am working for God,
since God does not impart the Holy Spirit through the
hands of false teachers? That was Paul's point. The
false teachers that entered the church there, were
saying that Paul had no authority and he was upset that
these people would even consider that argument, when
they should have known better. I.e....
"You question me, yet you received the Holy Ghost,
which testifies in you that you are now children of God
and heirs into His Kingdom?"
Thus, they themselves are witnesses as to the authority
in Christ that Paul had been given. This is why he is
so harsh with them, saying, "If I come again, I will
not spare". I.e....
"You people are sinning, listening to falsehoods from
false teachers, who claim that I am strong in letter
and weak in presence (2 Cor 10:10). Fine, you want
proof? Straighten up and fly right and stop listening
to the false teachers, who lead you into sin, or when I
come down there, you will see the proof and you will
see it in action! I will not spare! I will be just as
strong in person, as I am in my letters and you will
see the power of God and the authority that He has
granted me in Christ!"
Of course, that's a liberal paraphrasing of the text,
but you get the point. :)
___
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Can someone help explain these verses by Paul ??? - |
27 Jan 2005 11:25:51 AM |
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Paul Rivera wrote:
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:oe1iv01upahtd6f4iuk1j9nav7fqp0op7r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:59:09 GMT, after pondering deep
thoughts, "Paul Rivera" <privera@evergentsolutions.com>
spake thusly:
*--SNIP--*
As to the "two or three witnesses", Paul discusses them
as witnesses themselves (vs5-6,14). If hands were laid
on them and they received the Holy Ghost and are of the
church, then they witness themselves that he speaks the
truth. And when God works miracles through him, the
miracles are a witness from God. God Himself is a
witness, since Paul can do nothing of himself, as a
human. And there you have two other witnesses.
___
Pastor Dave Raymond
I see, so the same people which question Christ speaking in Paul are
witnesses that Christ speaks in Paul.
===>The guy was channeling a spirit he called "Christos".
What is so unique about that?
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