| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bible John" |
| Date: |
05 Nov 2005 11:10:27 AM |
| Object: |
Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
Carl in all due respect I believe that you confuse "methodology" and
"theology" in your assertion of Osteen.
Carl I am aware of what Osteen and other leaders in the Emerging Church
teach. I've rebuked some of them via Internet and in person for their
unbiblical philosophies. But Carl I would rarely label such leaders as
Spiritual terrorists simply based on our differences in ministry
philosophy. Carl did you attend Bible college? If you did you probably
took some ministry courses.
If you took courses such as Church Leadership, Church ministry models,
Teaching Ministry of the church or such then you should understand the
following models of church.
Emerging Church
Seeker friendly Church
Home Church
urban Church
Fundamentalist Church.
I place Osteen's style more in with the Emerging and Seeker Friendly
Churches. In my humble opinion and I believe that of scripture nothing
in any of Osteens message is flat out heretical or conflicting with the
basic tenants of the christian faith.
Carl I would suggest you do a bit of study on ministry philosophy and
purchase a book called The Emerging Church, by Dan Kimball.
I have reviewed the book below. Notice that I have NOT labeled Dan a
Spiritual Terrorist, although I feel his ministry philosophy is CORRUPT.
11 of 31 people found the following review helpful:
The Emerging Church as well as Kimball (?) are unbiblical!, May 10, 2005
Reviewer: John Wolf "2 Tim 4:2" (xxxx,CA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
There are many biblical problems with the Emerging church and perhaps
also Dan Kimball.
Here are a few of the problems.
#1 This movement replaces the scripture with a carnal worship experience.
I have been in so many Emerging Churches (mostly dominated with young
people) where the bible is not taught, or taught without much of a
theological substance. But it amazes me how the worship experience seems
to dominate the entire service. Its not that I am against contemporary
music, what I am against is music without much of a theological
substance. In one Emerging Church service I heard the following lyrics
"Spirit of God fall to this place!" You think about those words and
decide after reviewing the scriptures the biblical accuracy behind such
false teaching.
#2 This movement seeks to glorify the sinner over the savior.
So many Emerging Churches are so interested in being relevant, being
relevant and being relevant! The church is not for the unsaved, but for
the Christ. But to many Emerging Churches the goal of the church is to
attract and glorify the sinner over the savior. Anyone who reads their
bibles will know that the goal of the saved (bride of Christ) is to go
out and make disciples of all nations (Mt 28). Its never biblical to
water down the teachings, or create a atmosphere where the sinner can be
comfortable.
#3 This movement seeks unity over truth.
The Emerging church is far more interested in what unites, and it goes
to the extreme and decides that secondary non essential to salvation
doctrine is irrelevant. Biblically speaking doctrine is what holds the
church together, and it's a shame that so many churches today are
abandoning doctrine, in the face of temporary unity. I've been in a
number of debates with people in the Emerging Church, who could care
less about theology. I remember one time some Emerging Church leaders
said that theology was irrelevant to the unsaved.
There is much more I could say. I by no means am saying that everything
written by Dan Kimball is unbiblical. I do not know the heart of Dan.
All I know are what he writes, and many churches are following his
unbiblical ministry philosophies. No doubt I am very worried about the
spirituality of my generation. Perhaps this will be the generation the
embraces the Anti-Christ. I can imagine a day where those in the
Emerging Church take the mark of the beast as a way of being "relatable"
to the world.
NOTE- I will say that the graphics,photography, tables, page layout,
spelling, grammar, mechanics and things of this nature are excellent in
this book. Dan and his computer team did a really good job and knew
their macintosh computers well. I keep this book around for showoff in
these areas. Good job!
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
John 14:6 Jesus answered, ģI am the way and
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me.
AIM-Crucifyself03
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.
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| User: "Carl Walther" |
|
| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
05 Nov 2005 10:16:40 PM |
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I have not confused methodology with theology.
Joel does not preach Christ crucified and risen... sometimes Jesus'
name isn't even the focus of a sermon IF it makes it in it at all. And
yes, Joel IS the frontrunner of the "emerging church movement". The
problem is, the ECM is ok with leaving Christ Crucified at the door in
order to make more money.
It's religion... Just not Christianity.
--Carl
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| User: "Pulpitfire" |
|
| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
05 Nov 2005 12:58:25 PM |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:10:27 -0800, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
Carl in all due respect I believe that you confuse "methodology" and
"theology" in your assertion of Osteen.
Carl I am aware of what Osteen and other leaders in the Emerging Church
teach. I've rebuked some of them via Internet and in person for their
unbiblical philosophies. But Carl I would rarely label such leaders as
Spiritual terrorists simply based on our differences in ministry
philosophy. Carl did you attend Bible college? If you did you probably
took some ministry courses.
[snip]
My wife and I watch Olsteen from time to time. On the positive side,
I'd like to say he's probably one of the best communicators I've ever
heard. His messages are simple, straight to the heart, interesting,
and easy to understand and follow. Also, he is very encouraging and
compassionate in the way he preaches. Another good thing is that he
makes great application. He isn't all stuffy and technical, talking
about three principles of divine leadership and such, but shows how to
have a good attitude and relationship to others.
On the other hand, there are a few matters that concern me about
Olsteen. First, is that he invites people to get saved, simply by
inviting Jesus into their heart. There is seldom any mention of
Christ's death and resurrection, that we are sinners, or that we need
to rely on Christ's finished work. People have to be told the gospel
of Christ's death and resurrection before salvation is a possibility
(Rom. 1; 1 Cor. 15:1-3).
Another concern, is that there is often very little Scripture involved
in his messages. Instead of unfolding an entire passage of Scripture,
he'll quote one or two verses, as a spring board, and then the rest is
a lot of illustrations and such.
A third concern is, he seems to preach a success gospel. He talks
about how God wants us to succeed in our business and financial goals,
as well as things like getting the best parking space. He presents a
celebrity Christianity idea, that seems to contradict passages like
Hebrews 11. Hebrews shows those who were in the will of God were
treated like the scum of the earth, suffered persecution, and often
lived in poverty. Basically, about every sermon he preaches boils
down to: "If you just have a good attitude, you will succeed in life",
and success means enjoying the cream of the world's crop. The Bible
says success is conforming to the likeness of Christ, which often
means suffering persecution, being treated like dirt, and being
content with little.
======================================================
Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-3).
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation. www.pulpitfire.org
======================================================
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| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
05 Nov 2005 04:10:35 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:10:27 -0800, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
can be used anywhere else without expressed written permission of the
author.
Carl in all due respect I believe that you confuse "methodology" and
"theology" in your assertion of Osteen.
Carl I am aware of what Osteen and other leaders in the Emerging Church
teach. I've rebuked some of them via Internet and in person for their
unbiblical philosophies. But Carl I would rarely label such leaders as
Spiritual terrorists simply based on our differences in ministry
philosophy. Carl did you attend Bible college? If you did you probably
took some ministry courses.
If you took courses such as Church Leadership, Church ministry models,
Teaching Ministry of the church or such then you should understand the
following models of church.
BJ, I heard Joel Osteen with my own two ears tell Harry Reasoner that
he-- Joel-- had no clue what "being an evangelical or being born again
meant."
Harry pointed out that Joel's own father was a Southern Baptist
minister who preached being born again and Hell-fire and brimstone.
Joel rejected all three.
THAT is not Christian ministry no matter what cloak it wears.
And as I have said to you, you are known by the company you keep..
Tell me you honestly believe that Joel Osteen would be welcome in John
MacArthur's pulpit on a Sunday morning.
And the reason Joel fits in the "Emerging Church" crowd is that the
"Emerging Church" that so fascinates you is the apostate church Christ
and Paul warned us was coming in the last days,
You know, the one that would fool the "very elect."
Emerging Church
Seeker friendly Church
Home Church
urban Church
Fundamentalist Church.
I place Osteen's style more in with the Emerging and Seeker Friendly
Churches. In my humble opinion and I believe that of scripture nothing
in any of Osteens message is flat out heretical or conflicting with the
basic tenants of the christian faith.
Then you have no ear for apostasy.
I am sure that if I studied long enough, I could find redeeming
qualities in Hitler's teachings.
"And look at all the good he did!" (he did some)
His engineers invented the VW Beetle, the first (that I know of) true
economy car.
He conceived the Autobahn superhighway (the first superhighway I am
aware of)
Can't think of anything else.
Oh! I like the look of the uniforms. And I LOVE the swastikas.
(humor, folks. my version of black humor)
john w
snip
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
07 Nov 2005 07:47:37 AM |
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"john w @yow.how>" <jw<no> wrote in message
snip
I am sure that if I studied long enough, I could find redeeming
qualities in Hitler's teachings.
Why does this not surprise me.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Bible John" |
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| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
05 Nov 2005 07:55:57 PM |
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In article <m3bqm1lfmf31s9g5diuf5c83r3ocjnkn82@4ax.com>,
john w <jw<no>@yow.how> wrote:
BJ, I heard Joel Osteen with my own two ears tell Harry Reasoner that
he-- Joel-- had no clue what "being an evangelical or being born again
meant."
Harry pointed out that Joel's own father was a Southern Baptist
minister who preached being born again and Hell-fire and brimstone.
Joel rejected all three.
THAT is not Christian ministry no matter what cloak it wears.
And as I have said to you, you are known by the company you keep..
Tell me you honestly believe that Joel Osteen would be welcome in John
MacArthur's pulpit on a Sunday morning.
He would not
And the reason Joel fits in the "Emerging Church" crowd is that the
"Emerging Church" that so fascinates you is the apostate church Christ
and Paul warned us was coming in the last days,
Emerging Church fascinates me? JW you need to work on reading
comprehension. Go to my website and read some of my works in the
published articles section.
You know, the one that would fool the "very elect."
Emerging Church
Seeker friendly Church
Home Church
urban Church
Fundamentalist Church.
I place Osteen's style more in with the Emerging and Seeker Friendly
Churches. In my humble opinion and I believe that of scripture nothing
in any of Osteens message is flat out heretical or conflicting with the
basic tenants of the christian faith.
Then you have no ear for apostasy.
I am sure that if I studied long enough, I could find redeeming
qualities in Hitler's teachings.
"And look at all the good he did!" (he did some)
His engineers invented the VW Beetle, the first (that I know of) true
economy car.
He conceived the Autobahn superhighway (the first superhighway I am
aware of)
Can't think of anything else.
Oh! I like the look of the uniforms. And I LOVE the swastikas.
(humor, folks. my version of black humor)
john w
snip
--
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and
the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me.
AIM-Crucifyself03
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
07 Nov 2005 08:30:52 AM |
|
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 17:55:57 -0800, Bible John
<john.doggett@x-files.gov> wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
can be used anywhere else without expressed written permission of the
author.
In article <m3bqm1lfmf31s9g5diuf5c83r3ocjnkn82@4ax.com>,
john w <jw<no>@yow.how> wrote:
BJ, I heard Joel Osteen with my own two ears tell Harry Reasoner that
he-- Joel-- had no clue what "being an evangelical or being born again
meant."
Harry pointed out that Joel's own father was a Southern Baptist
minister who preached being born again and Hell-fire and brimstone.
Joel rejected all three.
THAT is not Christian ministry no matter what cloak it wears.
And as I have said to you, you are known by the company you keep..
Tell me you honestly believe that Joel Osteen would be welcome in John
MacArthur's pulpit on a Sunday morning.
He would not
I rest my case!
And the reason Joel fits in the "Emerging Church" crowd is that the
"Emerging Church" that so fascinates you is the apostate church Christ
and Paul warned us was coming in the last days,
Emerging Church fascinates me? JW you need to work on reading
comprehension. Go to my website and read some of my works in the
published articles section.
No. Your posts in here are quite enough.
You endorse Joel Osteen; Joel is representative of the "feel good"
"Emerging church" unless there's more than one.
You know, the one that would fool the "very elect."
Emerging Church
Seeker friendly Church
Home Church
urban Church
Fundamentalist Church.
I place Osteen's style more in with the Emerging and Seeker Friendly
Churches. In my humble opinion and I believe that of scripture nothing
in any of Osteens message is flat out heretical or conflicting with the
basic tenants of the christian faith.
Then you have no ear for apostasy.
I am sure that if I studied long enough, I could find redeeming
qualities in Hitler's teachings.
"And look at all the good he did!" (he did some)
His engineers invented the VW Beetle, the first (that I know of) true
economy car.
He conceived the Autobahn superhighway (the first superhighway I am
aware of)
Can't think of anything else.
Oh! I like the look of the uniforms. And I LOVE the swastikas.
(humor, folks. my version of black humor)
john w
snip
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| User: "Eeyore" |
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| Title: Re: Carl Walter about Joel Osteen |
06 Nov 2005 05:29:12 PM |
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In article <m3bqm1lfmf31s9g5diuf5c83r3ocjnkn82@4ax.com>, john w
<jw<no>@yow.how> wrote:
I am sure that if I studied long enough, I could find redeeming
qualities in Hitler's teachings.
john w
Only because deep down you are a neo nazi yourself.
You should do something about that part of your sickness, instead of doing
what the Nazis did - namely demonising others who disagree with your
filth.
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