Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology?



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Bible John"
Date: 18 Jan 2006 07:42:48 PM
Object: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology?
I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.
But then again I think both doctrines are false.
The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.
This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.
John
--
Posted with a Jornada 720 Handheld PC running Ink Spot CE
Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/
[Jn 11:25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and
the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
.

User: "chuckles"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 18 Jan 2006 10:15:03 PM
"Bible John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.comPDA> wrote in message

I know your a Lutheran etc. etc.

Hey Bible John, did you know that Martin Luther actually wrote
that he got his best inspirations while sitting on the toilet? I'm not
kidding! I'd change your handle if I were you....
.

User: "CaptainCatechism"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 18 Jan 2006 10:54:37 PM
Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.

Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements". As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".
CC
PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".
.
User: "Joseph Geloso"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 01:56:34 AM
CaptainCatechism wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.


Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements".

An exact definition of consubstantiation. So you do believe in the
Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation, not at all surprisingly.

As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".

Oh, except for _that_ one. Ironically, "Sola Scriptura" is a doctrine
quite foreign to the Bible and to the Spirit of the Prophets.
Of course, we also know that you hold "Sola Fide" - equally
non-scriptural and in fact contradicted by Scripture.


CC

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".

And you are cordially invited to enter completely into orthodoxy by
renouncing Luther's heresies and coming back home to the Catholic
Church!
.
User: "CaptainCatechism"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 06:35:28 PM
Joseph Geloso wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.


Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements".


An exact definition of consubstantiation. So you do believe in the
Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation, not at all surprisingly.

As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".


Oh, except for _that_ one. Ironically, "Sola Scriptura" is a doctrine
quite foreign to the Bible and to the Spirit of the Prophets.

Of course, we also know that you hold "Sola Fide" - equally
non-scriptural and in fact contradicted by Scripture.


CC

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".


And you are cordially invited to enter completely into orthodoxy by
renouncing Luther's heresies and coming back home to the Catholic
Church!

We never left the catholic church. The Roman Church kicked Dr. Luther
out. The Augsburg confession proved legally that we are still
catholic... just not Roman Catholic.
CC
.


User: "Carl Walther"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 18 Jan 2006 10:57:11 PM
CaptainCatechism wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.


Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements". As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".

CC

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are NOT
protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.
--Carl
.
User: "Joseph Geloso"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 02:00:41 AM
Carl Walther wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.


Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements". As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".

CC

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".


Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are NOT
protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.

Seeing that Martin Luther is more or less the founder of the Protestant
rebellion, I don't see how you can seriously claim to not be
Protestant. If you are, as you say, Catholic in form, then it is form
without substance (and to be honest - it's O.K., you can do it - you've
also changed some of the forms). Why not embrace the substance of the
truth, and come back to the Catholic Church?
.
User: "John"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 03:56:06 PM
Joseph Geloso wrote:

Carl Walther wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:

<clip>

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right
wings, you are more of a political organization. Lutherans
speak in terms of "Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are
NOT protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.


Seeing that Martin Luther is more or less the founder of the
Protestant rebellion,

<clip>
It sounds like you don't really understand what the call
toward Reformation was all about. Please remember that
because the Roman Catholic Church was so corrupt, the
Church indeed needed to be "Re-Formed." It wasn't a
rebellion as you put it, but it was a call for the Church
to get rid of the abuses. Today, the calls be be tamer
than fellow priests posting their objection to other
priests raping little boys in the local newspaper. The
intent of the Reformation was simply to get back to the
intent of scriptures. Also, you might do well to remember
that Martin Luther was a Christian theologian and Augustinian
monk, not the often stereotyped "Right Wing Fundamentalist
Baptist Fanatic." When he nailed his 95 Theses of
Contention to the Wittenberg Church door, this wasn't a
notice of rebellion, this was a common means of bringing
a matter forward for a discussion. It would be similar
to sending a memo to your colleagues to request a meeting.
It may seem like a rebellion to you, but the Reformation
was a breath of fresh air to the multitudes. IMHO, the
ones that are "rebelling" are those who rebel against
Yeshua, the Word of God. The "rebellious" ones are those
that continue to push the unscriptural heresies upon the
multitudes because they think that somehow a long standing
traditional heresy trumps scripture.
Finally, I really wish that people would do more research
of the pioneers that went before Martin Luther. Consider
some of the martyrs like John Wycliffe (born 1330, martyred
1384) and John Hus (born 1371, martyred 1415). Between
these two and Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was a long
movement towards reform of the RCC. I would also ask
people to consider the great work that took place long
afterwards. Specifically I would point them to look at
Charles Wesley and see how he helped bring the Gospel to
the common person.
.
User: "Joseph Geloso"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 05:01:22 PM
John wrote:

Joseph Geloso wrote:

Carl Walther wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:


<clip>

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right
wings, you are more of a political organization. Lutherans
speak in terms of "Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are
NOT protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.


Seeing that Martin Luther is more or less the founder of the
Protestant rebellion,


<clip>

It sounds like you don't really understand what the call
toward Reformation was all about. Please remember that
because the Roman Catholic Church was so corrupt, the
Church indeed needed to be "Re-Formed." It wasn't a
rebellion as you put it, but it was a call for the Church
to get rid of the abuses. Today, the calls be be tamer
than fellow priests posting their objection to other
priests raping little boys in the local newspaper. The
intent of the Reformation was simply to get back to the
intent of scriptures. Also, you might do well to remember
that Martin Luther was a Christian theologian and Augustinian
monk, not the often stereotyped "Right Wing Fundamentalist
Baptist Fanatic." When he nailed his 95 Theses of
Contention to the Wittenberg Church door, this wasn't a
notice of rebellion, this was a common means of bringing
a matter forward for a discussion.

The 95 Theses was not the last thing Martin Luther ever did.
Afterwards, he renounced the Papacy (along with the Sacraments except
for Baptism) and he rounded up the nobility of Germany to support him,
which they did, beginning the Protestant Rebellion. There were also at
that time reformers who remained faithful to God's Church. Luther did
not. So nowadays, we have literally thousands of Protestant sects, each
one asserting that they are the closest to the true Scriptural Church.
The reality is that the true Scriptural Church is the Catholic Church,
according to Christ's promise that "the gates of hell shall never
prevail against her."

It would be similar
to sending a memo to your colleagues to request a meeting.
It may seem like a rebellion to you, but the Reformation
was a breath of fresh air to the multitudes.

Of course. People do not generally like being told what they can and
cannot do. Like the indissolubility of Christian Marriage, for example.
Our Lord warned that marriage was not for everyone, but only those to
whom it was given - i.e. a vocation to Matrimony. I'm sure the concept
of the primacy of the individual Christian, instead of the Pope, with
reagrd to the correct interpretation of Scripture, was very appealing
to the common man.

IMHO, the
ones that are "rebelling" are those who rebel against
Yeshua, the Word of God.

But did not this selfsame Yeshua appoint Simon, changing his name to
Peter, as the visible leader of His Church?

The "rebellious" ones are those
that continue to push the unscriptural heresies upon the
multitudes because they think that somehow a long standing
traditional heresy trumps scripture.

If you are talking about long-standing traditional heresies like Sola
Scriptura and Sola Fide, I would agree with you. But something tells me
that's not what you're talking about.


Finally, I really wish that people would do more research
of the pioneers that went before Martin Luther. Consider
some of the martyrs like John Wycliffe (born 1330, martyred
1384) and John Hus (born 1371, martyred 1415). Between
these two and Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was a long
movement towards reform of the RCC. I would also ask
people to consider the great work that took place long
afterwards. Specifically I would point them to look at
Charles Wesley and see how he helped bring the Gospel to
the common person.

I am not asserting that there was no need for reform. There certainly
was, and there still is. But reform is done within the Church, not
against her. And when Luther rebelled, and took Germany with him, he
very definitely did a lot more harm than good. This is not even to say
that God could not bring good out of that evil, because He certainly
can. But the Church is still the Church, and there is still only, and
there can ever be only, one.
.
User: "John"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 20 Jan 2006 08:34:45 AM
Joseph Geloso wrote:

John wrote:

Joseph Geloso wrote:

Carl Walther wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:

<clip>

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right
wings, you are more of a political organization. Lutherans
speak in terms of "Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are
NOT protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.

Seeing that Martin Luther is more or less the founder of the
Protestant rebellion,


<clip>

It sounds like you don't really understand what the call
toward Reformation was all about. Please remember that
because the Roman Catholic Church was so corrupt, the
Church indeed needed to be "Re-Formed." It wasn't a
rebellion as you put it, but it was a call for the Church
to get rid of the abuses. Today, the calls be be tamer
than fellow priests posting their objection to other
priests raping little boys in the local newspaper. The
intent of the Reformation was simply to get back to the
intent of scriptures. Also, you might do well to remember
that Martin Luther was a Christian theologian and Augustinian
monk, not the often stereotyped "Right Wing Fundamentalist
Baptist Fanatic." When he nailed his 95 Theses of
Contention to the Wittenberg Church door, this wasn't a
notice of rebellion, this was a common means of bringing
a matter forward for a discussion.


The 95 Theses was not the last thing Martin Luther ever did.
Afterwards, he renounced the Papacy (along with the Sacraments except
for Baptism) and he rounded up the nobility of Germany to support him,
which they did, beginning the Protestant Rebellion. There were also at
that time reformers who remained faithful to God's Church. Luther did
not. So nowadays, we have literally thousands of Protestant sects, each
one asserting that they are the closest to the true Scriptural Church.
The reality is that the true Scriptural Church is the Catholic Church,

The reality is that the true Scriptural Church is
the Spiritual Church, not a physical organization
steeped in politics and corruption.

according to Christ's promise that "the gates of hell shall never
prevail against her."

If Martin Luther was the symbol of the "gates of hell",
then the promise would be false. In case you hadn't
noticed, the RCC is just about meaningless in Europe.

It would be similar
to sending a memo to your colleagues to request a meeting.
It may seem like a rebellion to you, but the Reformation
was a breath of fresh air to the multitudes.


Of course. People do not generally like being told what they can and
cannot do. Like the indissolubility of Christian Marriage, for example.
Our Lord warned that marriage was not for everyone, but only those to
whom it was given - i.e. a vocation to Matrimony. I'm sure the concept
of the primacy of the individual Christian, instead of the Pope, with
reagrd to the correct interpretation of Scripture, was very appealing
to the common man.

Please show scripture supporting the notion that
there is a priesthood separate from the Congregation.
See Heb. 7:5-18. The Levitical/Aaronic priesthood was
imperfect and was eternally replaced by the perfect
priesthood of Yeshua (Jesus Christ), of which Yeshua
is the High Priest after the order of Melchisedec
(that is, not of the tribe of Levi, and perpetual,
needing never to be replaced - Heb. 5:6; 6:19-20),
and of which all Christians are priests.
1 Peter 2:4-5,9
4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone,
disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God,
and precious,
5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up
a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to
offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable
to God by Jesus Christ."
9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal
priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should shew forth the praises of him
who hath called you out of darkness into his
marvelous light:"
First notice that the "living stone" in verse 4
is a reference to Yeshua. Also notice that the
"holy priesthood" are also called "stones." This
is a call to people, not an exclusive group of
men. The same "priesthood" was also called a
"holy nation." This "holy nation" is a reference
to "Christians." Christians are the "holy
priesthood," the "holy nation."
Finally remember that we have only ONE high priest,
Yeshua, not some earthly pope.

IMHO, the
ones that are "rebelling" are those who rebel against
Yeshua, the Word of God.


But did not this selfsame Yeshua appoint Simon,
changing his name to Peter, as the visible leader
of His Church?

No. The Church was built upon faith, not rocks.
The example you are referring to is quite twisted
in interpretation. You need to look at the non-English
words closer.
Matthew 16.18
"And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros),
and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and
the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Petros and petra are not the same. While both are a
type of "rock," they wouldn't have been confused to
the listeners of Yeshua's words.
Consider the following explanation from the
"Theological Dictionary of the New Testament",
by Geoffrey W. Bromily. © 1985
by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company:
"In secular Greek pétra denotes a large 'rock,'
but also a 'cliff'; or 'rocky mountain chain.'
Figuratively it suggests firmness, immovability,
and hardness. pétros is more often used for
smaller rocks, stones, or pebbles."
Finally, notice that the city spoken of in Revelations
was built upon 12 foundations, not 1.
Revelation 21:14
"And the wall of the city had twelve foundations,
and in them the names of the twelve apostles of
the Lamb."

The "rebellious" ones are those
that continue to push the unscriptural heresies upon the
multitudes because they think that somehow a long standing
traditional heresy trumps scripture.


If you are talking about long-standing traditional heresies like Sola
Scriptura and Sola Fide, I would agree with you. But something tells me
that's not what you're talking about.

The sale of the forgiveness of sin is heresy.
Yeshua paid the price, not some priest or pope
with his hands in your pocket.

Finally, I really wish that people would do more research
of the pioneers that went before Martin Luther. Consider
some of the martyrs like John Wycliffe (born 1330, martyred
1384) and John Hus (born 1371, martyred 1415). Between
these two and Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was a long
movement towards reform of the RCC. I would also ask
people to consider the great work that took place long
afterwards. Specifically I would point them to look at
Charles Wesley and see how he helped bring the Gospel to
the common person.


I am not asserting that there was no need for reform.

I suggest that just consider the corruption of
the RCC priesthood today. When are priests going
to stop raping little boys? Don't you think there
is a need for Reform?

There certainly was, and there still is.
But reform is done within the Church, not
against her.

The RCC has demonstrated that it was easier to
kill (martyr) those that brought up the issues
that needed to be dealt with than to reform the
church from within.

And when Luther rebelled,

The RCC was, and still is, rebelling against God.

and took Germany with him, he
very definitely did a lot more harm than good.

The only harm he did was to use some of the
tactics he learned as a priest in the RCC.

This is not even to say
that God could not bring good out of that evil,
because He certainly can.

Yes, God brought the Christian Church out of the RCC.
Revelation 18:4 (King James Version)
"And I heard another voice from heaven,
saying, Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that
ye receive not of her plagues."

But the Church is still the Church, and there is still only, and
there can ever be only, one.

Yes, the Church is still the Spiritual Church.
There is only one Spiritual Church and the RCC
was not and is not it.
.



User: "CaptainCatechism"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 09:21:44 PM
Joseph Geloso wrote:

Carl Walther wrote:

CaptainCatechism wrote:

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.


Lutherans don't believe in either.
We believe in the real presence of Christ "In, with and under the
elements". As for scripture, all of our doctrines are from scripture.
That the "sola scriptura".

CC

PS If you are speaking of your church in terms of left/right wings, you
are more of a political organization. Lutherans speak in terms of
"Orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy".


Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are NOT
protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.


Seeing that Martin Luther is more or less the founder of the Protestant
rebellion, I don't see how you can seriously claim to not be
Protestant. If you are, as you say, Catholic in form, then it is form
without substance

Wrong... we are catholic in form and evangelical in principle.

(and to be honest - it's O.K., you can do it - you've
also changed some of the forms). Why not embrace the substance of the
truth, and come back to the Catholic Church?

Because the Pope teaches that others are saved without Jesus Christ...
that is not a catholic belief. Never has been... never will be.
CC
.


User: "John the Baptist Jr."

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 12:01:09 AM
In article <1137646631.235089.191410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are NOT
protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.

--Carl

If you are not protestant then what are you?
Carl do you believe in Consubstantiation theology? Carl we agree on the
essentials so I consider you a brother, but I'd like to know about your
views in other areas.
Luthers tend to be very Arminean and liberal in many areas. Not to say
they are not saved.
Thanks,
John
--
John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God;
his name was John. He came as a witness to testify
concerning that light, so that through him all men
might believe. He himself was not the light; he came
only as a witness to the light.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
.
User: "Stephen Korsman"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 01:45:16 PM
"John the Baptist Jr." <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:johnw_94020-107786.22010818012006@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...

In article <1137646631.235089.191410@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Carl Walther" <no_no_no_splam@hotmail.com> wrote:

Agreed. Too many people try to pigeon-hole Lutherans. We are NOT
protestant and we are not Roman Catholic.
We are Catholic in Form and Evangelical in principle.

--Carl


If you are not protestant then what are you?

Carl do you believe in Consubstantiation theology? Carl we agree on the
essentials so I consider you a brother, but I'd like to know about your
views in other areas.

To jump in where I was not invited ... and I am not trying to stir up a
fight ... I'm just interested in knowing what you consider to be the
essentials. Who is included in those who believe the essentials, and who is
not? How would you classify Catholicism?
Again, I'm just curious ... not trying to start an argument ... I'm quite
fed up with those.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
.
User: "John the Baptist Jr."

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 20 Jan 2006 02:10:20 PM
In article <7MWdnUAib9q_cFLeRVn-rw@is.co.za>,
"Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotoko.co.za> wrote:


To jump in where I was not invited ... and I am not trying to stir up a
fight ... I'm just interested in knowing what you consider to be the
essentials. Who is included in those who believe the essentials, and who is
not? How would you classify Catholicism?

Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection. and justification by
faith through grace.
You take away from Christ (by denying the trinity) or take away from
grace (by adding works to the equation) and you are taking away from the
essentials.
John
--
John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God;
his name was John. He came as a witness to testify
concerning that light, so that through him all men
might believe. He himself was not the light; he came
only as a witness to the light.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
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User: "Joseph Geloso"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 18 Jan 2006 09:14:47 PM
Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

Why? Do you doubt the very words of Christ Himself in Holy Scripture?


The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical doctrine.

"This is my Body." That's Scriptural.


This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break off
from Presbyterianism.

Why are you posting to the groups you're posting to? No Baptists groups?
.
User: "chuckles"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 18 Jan 2006 10:13:15 PM
"Joseph Geloso" <josephfg@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in

consubstantation?

This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in

the

Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.


Why? Do you doubt the very words of Christ Himself in Holy Scripture?

Christ didn't write a single word of the NT.
Strange how the creator of the universe couldn't manage the time to
write a single book. That sure would have ended a lot of this
confusion and contention.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical

doctrine.

"This is my Body." That's Scriptural.

Nope. It's something written many years after the alleged events.
.
User: "Joseph Geloso"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Jan 2006 01:51:25 AM
chuckles wrote:

"Joseph Geloso" <josephfg@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Bible John wrote:

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in

consubstantation?

This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in

the

Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.


Why? Do you doubt the very words of Christ Himself in Holy Scripture?


Christ didn't write a single word of the NT.

Strange how the creator of the universe couldn't manage the time to
write a single book. That sure would have ended a lot of this
confusion and contention.

Hahaha! That's pretty funny. You say it as if you would believe that He
really wrote that book, had He written it.


The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical

doctrine.

"This is my Body." That's Scriptural.


Nope. It's something written many years after the alleged events.

Some parts of Holy Scripture were written many years after the events.
So?
.



User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: Carl Walter do you hold Consubstantiation theology? 19 Oct 2006 06:46:52 PM
Take eat this is my body...
"Bible John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.comPDA> wrote in message
news:11strkobl8svs9b@news.supernews.com...

I know your a Lutheran and I was wondering if you believe in
consubstantation?
This seems contrary to the false Transubstantitation doctrine taught in
the
Roman Catholic church.

But then again I think both doctrines are false.

The sad problem with the Orthodox churches is that they often emphasis
tradition over scripture. So mere historical theologies like
Consubstantitation and Transubstantitation are taught as biblical
doctrine.

This is the difference between you and me. In the right wing
Fundamentalist
Baptist church were I minister; scripture and scripture alone is our
authority. No we do not teach historical theology. I bet Bob Jones will
emphasize historical theology far less than Simpson. The CMA being break
off
from Presbyterianism.


John
--
Posted with a Jornada 720 Handheld PC running Ink Spot CE
Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/
[Jn 11:25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and
the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

.


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