| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Jim" |
| Date: |
26 Mar 2005 10:12:16 PM |
| Object: |
celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
It happens every year.
The churches are packed with strangers. All the women are dressed up extra
fancy in bright new suits. And after the service, the kids are scrambling
across grassy lawns, looking for something hidden behind trees and shrubs,
and just under the porches, along the fence line, and at the edges of
flowerbeds.
What's with all those rabbits, new dresses, and colored eggs? Where did all
these people come from that are packing the pews?
We often call it an Easter celebration. And as many Christians join in the
Easter egg hunts, Easter baskets, and fun with Easter bunnies as anyone
else. Christian women often dress up in bright pastels, and may even
include new hats. And there are huge dinners and family gatherings, crowded
church pews, special Easter sermons, and so on.
But Christians are not really celebrating "Easter" when they celebrate
Easter. We're not celebrating the return of the sunshine and longer days,
the return of any pagan gods to life, or the fertility of our new crops and
livestock.
Don't get me wrong. Sunshine and longer days are wonderful things. And so
is a good yield of crops. While most of us welcome certain aspects of fall
and winter, few of us would wish to keep the long nights and the cold
weather all year long. No, spring and summer are truly good and wonderful
things.
But Christians do not celebrate or worship any aspect of nature.
We look beyond nature to the Creator, the true and living God who set
everything in motion and who keeps all things going by His own eternal Word.
And at this time of the year, we look back especially and remember the
terrible death and the awesome resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. We
celebrate His willing sacrifice, His gift of life, and His power to give
light to every darkened human soul.
History shows us that pagans were celebrating the return of spring long
before Christians existed. And there was also a time when both Christians
and pagans were holding celebrations on about the same days. And then, as
more and more pagans became Christian, the Christian celebrations overcame
the pagan -- both in times and in substance.
But of course, political rulers and church leaders always have to get
involved, to force things and to muddy up the waters. And today we even
have secular historians working hard to try and reconstruct history in order
to try, once again, to capture and contain the Christian message and Gospel.
(But they will never be able to do so -- as John 1:5 [NRSV] declares: "The
light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.")
So what is it that Christians are celebrating this time of the year? Why do
we even bother to participate and/or argue about the holiday?
A fact mentioned in passing above -- the death and resurrection of Jesus
Christ -- is the cornerstone of not only the church itself, but of all time
and eternity, as well. Had Jesus not lived, died, and risen again, there
would be no light at all in this dark, dark world.
Think about it.
The eternal Son of God, the very Word (logos) which was God, and which was
with God in the beginning (see John 1:1-5), became a human being -- a flesh
and blood man. That in itself was extraordinary and totally impossible.
How can the eternal God become a human being? How can eternal and infinite
Spirit become flesh and blood -- finite and temporal and mortal?
The pagans could never do it. They had make-believe gods in their sagas and
tales that would pretend to be human sometimes. (But even at their best
those gods were nothing more than oversized people in character and nature.)
And any human appearances the pagan gods made were strictly pretense,
according to the tales themselves.
But the true and living God who made and rules all things, actually became
flesh. And He lived among us for some thirty-odd years. He was born as a
human baby, grew up as a fairly ordinary Jewish boy, and then lived out a
short life as a human adult. When He went to the cross, Jesus was a mortal
being put to death for crimes he never committed.
The whole concept is so hard to grasp, that secular philosophers from about
the beginning of the nineteenth century on tried to convince everyone that
eyewitnesses couldn't possibly have recorded the story of Jesus. They told
us that the Gospel accounts were not written down until hundreds of years
later -- centuries (centuries!!) after the real Jesus of Nazareth had lived
and died.
In their unbelieving minds, there needed to be enough time for the old pagan
stories and legends to have been slowly added (another form of evolution?)
to the Gospel message of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
I think that this kind of thinking was based on observing chimpanzees in the
wild, or aboriginal tribes who had no written languages or something. Okay,
so I'm being a little sarcastic. But you would think that even the worst
skeptics in the world would realize that the People of the Book (the Jews)
are not going to wait whole generations to begin writing about the most
significant thing to ever happen on planet earth.
Messiah had come! The Lamb of God had died! The Savior of the world had
risen from the dead! The Promised One was going to be talked about, written
about, sung about -- celebrated!
Fortunately, as time went on, older and older copies of New Testament
manuscripts were uncovered, some dating right into the lifetime of the
original disciples, the actual apostles of Jesus Christ. According to a
documentary on the Discovery Channel, some scholars have even dated a
portion of the Gospel of Matthew to within a decade or so of the Lord Jesus
Himself.
Important fact: God does impossible things.
The Bible is filled with accounts of impossible things being done by God,
either directly or through those men and women who listened to Him and acted
in simple faith. The supernatural birth, life, and death and victorious
resurrection of Jesus Christ is impossible, yes. But it's true,
nonetheless. With God, as the Scripture says, all things are possible.
Eternal God dies for mortal, sinful human beings. Sinless, holy God takes
on sins of the whole world. Fallen, sinful, ruined human beings are made
sinless and holy by God's kindness and merciful love. Mortal men and women
and children of all ages receive eternal life in God's household.
As one woman in Texas testified on television once, "I got down on my knees,
right there on the city sidewalk as a sinner, a *****, an addict. I prayed
to God. I got up as a forgiven saint, a lady, a woman of God." Here in the
real world, where we all grew up, that stuff just doesn't happen. Crack
addicts and whores don't get clean, through and through, in a couple of
minutes. But with God, all things are possible. And I know of countless
thugs, prostitutes, pimps, addicts -- you name it -- that have been made
clean, made holy in God's eyes - by the sweet and amazing grace of our God,
through simple faith in Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus lived and died, all sins are carried away for whoever believes
in Him for eternal life. And because Jesus rose up, walking right out of
hell and the tomb, we can all trust God for new life. That life does not
begin when we die. That new life begins right here and now, the very day
and hour that we place our faith in Jesus Christ.
Because Jesus lives, we also live.
And one day, at the appointed time, Jesus Christ will return to this planet.
He's not returning as a humble servant, like He was before. He'll return
with full power and glory as King of the entire universe. And all who know
Him will rejoice, and all who have rejected Him will mourn.
That truth made reality by the Lord Jesus Christ is what Christians
celebrate at this time of the year.
In fact, we celebrate it every week, as we gather with other believers. And
whenever we break bread together in Christian fellowship, we actively
remember the death of the Lord Jesus, who gave Himself for us. As we gather
together on the first day of the week, we're celebrating that morning,
nearly two thousand years ago, when Jesus Himself walked out of the tomb.
Now that's something to celebrate, isn't it? That's what Christians are
celebrating this time of the year.
The Easter Song
One of the great blessings of God in and through Jesus Christ is the
incredible music He's given to the church, and through the church to the
whole world. I'm thinking of Handel's "Messiah" and a great many splendid
hymns. And there are also contemporary songs that are truly alive with the
very power of God.
One of my all-time favorites -- for Easter or any other time of the year --
is by the "Second Chapter of Acts," a group that was around in the early to
mid '70s up through 1988. It's called the Easter Song, and it's about that
early morning, nearly two thousand years ago, when the disciples first began
to realize that Jesus had risen from the dead.
You can listen that song today on your own computer, if you wish. To do so,
just visit the site:
http://www.2ndchapterofacts.com/recordings/west-was-one.htm
Scroll down the page, through the list of songs, until you see "The Easter
Song" on the left, and then choose either RealAudio or QuickTime format.
(You can download free players for either of these formats.)
----------------------------
Lyrics to "The Easter Song"
Hear the bells ringing
they're singing
that we can be born again
Hear the bells ringing
they're singing
Christ is risen from the dead
The angel up on the tombstone said, "He is risen, just as He said.
Quickly now, go tell His disciples that Jesus Christ is no longer dead.
Joy to the world!
He is risen!
Hallelujah!
He's risen!
Hallelujah!
He's Risen!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!
------------------------
Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings.
Oh, and I hope you and yours will all have a very "Happy Easter!"
Jim
Need to know more about how Jesus can change you into a real child of God?
The Bible tells you all about it. Read the Gospel of John, in the New
Testament portion of the Holy Bible. And if you need more help, visit:
http://www.goodwordusa.org/word/peace4.htm
More help can be found at: http://www.goodwordusa.org/power/change1.htm
Read this entire message online at:
http://www.goodwordusa.org/power/easter.htm
.
|
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
|
| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
27 Mar 2005 12:17:34 AM |
|
|
[...]
Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings. [...]
- - -
You do realize that the new testamyth Jesus is
mythical, don't you?
- - -
Historical Jesus Summary : No
Reliable Evidence (022605)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/historical_jesus_summary.htm
"The following referenced website has a lot of
information doubting both the new testamyth
christian gospels -and- epistles, as well as a
section doubting non-christian sources used
by some to promote an historical Jesus. ..."
- - -
Four Elephants reveal non-existence of
Jesus? (122504)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
"Jesus' life and death was God's revelation that our
personal salvation from sins --like torture and murder--
is to be effected by our torture and murder of the
divine emissary himself. ... I would characterize what
we do encounter as a quartet of elephants in the room,
which the defenders of an historical Jesus must try to
ignore or work their way around. ..."
- - -
Jesus Christ? (061303)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_christ.htm
"Helpful links for ascertaining the way in which
the traditional Jesus Christ character fits into the
social / cultural milieu of the modern day. ..."
- - -
Jesus - Christ, Man, or Myth
(111502)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_christ_man_or_myth.htm
"The Jesus character is quite a phenomenon
as to how people view it as an icon of _____
(insert long list here) whether or not any Jesus
resembling the Jesus characters of the quran
and bible ever existed ..."
- - -
Helpful information to refute claims
that 'Jesus Christ - Son of God & a Virgin'
existed (053102)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/refute_claims_that_jesus_existed.htm
"... the winner of the christ contest was merely
the belief system most adept at combining the
power of the promise of immortality with the
power of the state and the power of the sword
(and other methods of violence), one amongst
many competitors, all superstitious in origins /
nature, all equally worthy of placement in the
category known as 'religious myth'. ..."
- - -
Jesus Christ, Supermyth (050202)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_christ_supermyth.htm
"The assertion at issue is that Jesus existed,
some say as a man, some say as a resurrected
savior, most in the western world choosing to
credit him with bringing a unique religious view
to humankind, despite many pro-human
philosophies flourishing prior to the advent
of orthodox (Jesus as son of god / savior)
christianity. ..."
- - -
Good Friday / Easter ...
Reality / Freedom? (050102)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/good_friday_easter.htm
"... religion provides naught but ancient paths to
delusion and empty, unfulfilled, false promises
which lead to activities deleterious to human
welfare, in all too many cases, in no small part
due to the blind devotion of those of faith to
ancient mindsets ..."
- - -
Jesus (022102)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus.htm
"In another thread, a poster recently submitted
a challenge to my doubt/disbelief regarding the
literalist interpretation of the Jesus character
of the new testamyth ... to which I replied as
follows ..."
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File (022801)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
"For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus
was a mythical creation -or- an overly ambitious
series of creative extrapolations pertaining to
a human who, if he even existed, had neither
divine nor extraordinary attributes anywhere
near those credited to him in the gospels,
review the following ... "
- - -
How Can Anyone Talk of Christ
or God as Real? (020101)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/god_or_christ_as_real.htm
"Pertaining to the subjects of this post:
Theory 1) They're non-existent ...
Theory 2) They talked to folks in ancient
times, so reading what folks who heard from
them / saw them / witnessed them, wait, no
one who saw Christ wrote anything down ...
Theory 3) They talk to folks today, but if
that's so, why do folks say contradictory
things about what Christ or God are
saying? ..."
- - -
Reasoning your way to no god,
no christ (121800)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/reasoning_your_way_to_no_god.htm
"Wanting some godman to exist doesn't
illegitimatize a refutation of same. It is quite
logical to assess the evidence and make a
determination as to a miracle performing son
of god called Jesus. The point of the position
of Jesus as myth is that the Catholic Jesus
godman and the historical Jesus godman are
demonstrably mythical. ..."
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
.
|
|
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| User: "Jim" |
|
| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
28 Mar 2005 06:29:20 AM |
|
|
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
[...]
Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings. [...]
- - -
You do realize that the new testamyth Jesus is
mythical, don't you?
Hi, P-H.
What I realize, P-H, is that Jesus Christ is very real and very much
alive -- and that fools are likely to believe most anything about the
world, the universe, and even about the importance of their own
imaginations.
The universe really exists. It did not make itself, as some idiots
have chosen to believe. Atoms do not shape themselves, nor do they
continue forever. Matter and energy is not eternal. They were created
by God.
Proto-human minds may struggle to get such basic truths into their tiny
thought patterns, but that personal difficulty on their part does not
alter reality at all.
I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) you stop reading and soaking up
stupid crap and that you begin to spend some time in the ral world.
Spring is a great time of the year to begin such a change. You will be
amazed at the things you discover.
Jim
.
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| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
28 Mar 2005 07:38:42 AM |
|
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On 28 Mar 2005 04:29:20 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings. [...]
You do realize that the new testamyth Jesus is
mythical, don't you?
What I realize, P-H, is that Jesus Christ is very real and very much
alive --
Your evidence for this assertion is....?
and that fools are likely to believe most anything about the
world, the universe, and even about the importance of their own
imaginations.
That description fits you as well as anyone else.
The universe really exists. It did not make itself, as some idiots
have chosen to believe. Atoms do not shape themselves, nor do they
continue forever. Matter and energy is not eternal. They were created
by God.
That's not demonstrated or demonstrable. But even if true, that
doesn't prove said God is anything resembling this mythic Jesus.
Proto-human minds may struggle to get such basic truths into their tiny
thought patterns, but that personal difficulty on their part does not
alter reality at all.
But your theological vaporware is hardly reality.
I suggest (and it is only a suggestion) you stop reading and soaking up
stupid crap and that you begin to spend some time in the ral world.
In other words stop reading the Bible?
Spring is a great time of the year to begin such a change. You will be
amazed at the things you discover.
So getting back to your assertion that "Jesus Christ is very real and
very much alive", where's your proof?
## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable
.
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
29 Mar 2005 09:47:43 AM |
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John Ings wrote:
Your evidence for this assertion is....?
That description fits you as well as anyone else.
That's not demonstrated or demonstrable. But even if true, that
doesn't prove said God is anything resembling this mythic Jesus.
But your theological vaporware is hardly reality.
In other words stop reading the Bible?
So getting back to your assertion that "Jesus Christ is very real and
very much alive", where's your proof?
## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable
Hi, John.
With reference to that very last comment (a moving quote, I suppose), I
heard someone say the other day that coffee is supposed to really jump
up in price. Has anyone else heard that? Is it on the news? (I
sometimes miss a lot of the news. And I'm hoping that you haven't also
decided that really mudane things are unknowable!)
As for the rest of your post, you do a fair job of displaying your
addiction to ignorance, and your love for debate. However, you offer
nothing at all as any kind of a reason for asserting that Christ or God
or reality itself is unknown, unknowable, or whatever.
Maybe you were just upset. But you're certainly free to try again.
Thanks for the ... well... whatever it was.
Jim
.
|
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| User: "John Ings" |
|
| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
29 Mar 2005 10:36:06 AM |
|
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On 29 Mar 2005 07:47:43 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable
With reference to that very last comment (a moving quote, I suppose),
An accurate observation.
I
heard someone say the other day that coffee is supposed to really jump
up in price. Has anyone else heard that? Is it on the news? (I
sometimes miss a lot of the news. And I'm hoping that you haven't also
decided that really mudane things are unknowable!)
Yet explained endlessly by those who don't know what they're talking
about. Like you.
As for the rest of your post, you do a fair job of displaying your
addiction to ignorance, and your love for debate.
And by your reply you do a good job of displaying your inability to
rebut the points I made.
However, you offer
nothing at all as any kind of a reason for asserting that Christ or God
or reality itself is unknown, unknowable, or whatever.
That's easily done. Are you really so conceited that you think you are
a competent judge of deity? Even with God's full co-operation, how do
you propose to identify him, let alone determine if what you think you
perceive is real?
Maybe you were just upset. But you're certainly free to try again.
Thanks for the ... well... whatever it was.
It was a series of questions that you have ducked and dodged because
you can't answer them. A review:
What I realize, P-H, is that Jesus Christ is very real and very much
alive --
Your evidence for this assertion is....?
Well? Where's you evidence?
and that fools are likely to believe most anything about the
world, the universe, and even about the importance of their own
imaginations.
That description fits you as well as anyone else.
Can you show me that that's not a pertinent observation?
The universe really exists. It did not make itself, as some idiots
have chosen to believe. Atoms do not shape themselves, nor do they
continue forever. Matter and energy is not eternal. They were created
by God.
That's not demonstrated or demonstrable.
Unless you think you can. Do you?
But even if true, that doesn't prove said God is anything
resembling this mythic Jesus.
Unless you have evidence.... Do you?
Proto-human minds may struggle to get such basic truths into their tiny
thought patterns, but that personal difficulty on their part does not
alter reality at all.
But your theological vaporware is hardly reality.
Is it now?
So getting back to your assertion that "Jesus Christ is very real and
very much alive", where's your proof?
Well?
## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable
.
|
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
|
| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
29 Mar 2005 08:34:54 PM |
|
|
"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:n20j41tefn9kptcakhcnj0lrvabk3s99a0@4ax.com...
[...]
## Religion explains to ignorance the nature of the unknowable
Good probe into trying to get a believer (in Jesus)
to comment on why he believes (in Jesus, along
with all the other mythos he believes in).
Here's a reply I made earlier today (in another news-
group) to a Catholic who is a Jesus fan, a reply that
responds to his Catholic doubt in doubt regarding
the mythical Jesus of new testamyth fame ...
<jkelley@zoomnet.net> wrote ...
}
} "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
}}
}}
}} The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light
}} by Tom Harpur
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887621457
}
} An utter piece of garbage.
} [...]
While that is, perhaps, a bit harsh -if- you were
describing foundational religious documents,
like the christian bible, certainly one could be
excused for having that opinion about religious
foundational documents, if you were to have
that opinion towards them.
However, perhaps it would be better stated
that religious foundational documents are a
reflection of the minds of ancients, those writ-
ten in ancient times, clueless regarding modern-
day concepts of pro-humanism, naturalism,
natural history, archeology, and the manner in
which those concepts are antithetical to a sub-
stantial amount of the writings in ancient reli-
gious documents.
As for modern-day religious documents, like
the 19th century Book of Mormon, simply fan-
tasies leveraged off of the ancient myths.
Here's Earl Doherty's review of "The Pagan
Christ: Recovering the Lost Light":
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvHarpur.htm
}
}} 105. The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with
}} a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence
}} of an Historical Jesus, by Earl J. Doherty
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405
}} http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
}
} At least he can write well,mostly.
} Otherwise just arguments from silence.
Actually, there's a lot more than arguments from
silence there, the -4- elephants, for example:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
} - - -
}}
}} 106. The Jesus Mysteries : Was the 'Original Jesus'
}} a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/060960581X
}} http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/21/jesus.mysteries/index.html
}
} Gandy,I think,is a journalist. Freke used to publish PORN!
He did? That's interesting, if true. If not true,
it's inaccurate, and I'm sure you'll be more
than open to presenting a retraction, if you
find, upon further research, you're incorrect,
won't you?
If not, if you were correct, I'm sure you'll
present us with convincing material backing
up your claim, something appearing in a
reputable online resource rather than from
a catholic or fundy blog, won't you?
}
} Ever notice how NONE of the authors of these books are
} PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS. Wonder why?
Professional historian? How does one get that
title? What, does one apply to the professional
historians association?
Again, and in any case, you must wonder, if you're
a well-reasoned individual, how historians, by and
large, deal with 'missing material', that which cannot
be evidenced simply because it has been purged,
expunged, obliterated from the historical record
due to the actions of those in power.
One technique, ignoring it. Another technique, trying
to figure out, logically and reasonably, what is the
most likely explanation that would have been within
documents that are missing. Another technique, to
utilize bias in ignoring missing records, something
christian apologists are quite adept at. Usually, said
bias is used in favor of the majority opinion that has
been pressed into service via 1,000 of the darkest
years in human history, the dark ages / middle ages
dominated by christian rule of the western world.
} - - -
}
}} 107. The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story
}} Ever Sold, by Acharya S
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747
}} http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm
}} http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm
}} http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm
}
} Mention this at the history department of your local
} college. See how hard you get laughed at.
Christian colleges? Yep. Secular colleges, with well-
educated professors well-schooled in the mythos of
the Jesus character? An actualized knowledge of the
sources for her material, albeit while admitting that
much of her material is contentious and controversial,
would accede that there is much to be gained by pon-
dering some of the more controversial aspects of
christian criticism based on less-well-known writings,
many from the 19th century.
Support for her theory of conspiracy? Well, as with
almost all conspiracy theories, it's difficult (if not
impossible) to reliably validate some (or much) of
what is claimed, but nevertheless it is of interest to
speculate on the actual nature of the formation of
religions, much of which has been expunged from
historical records.
With christianity, due to the heavy-handed book
burning motif of the Romans from the 4th century
onwards, in their effort to stamp out and extinguish
all materials counter to their chosen theocratized
religion of Roman Catholic christianity, it's difficult
to find historical records. You see, that was the
goal of the Roman Catholic / Roman Empire in
the early days of christianity, stamping out / expung-
ing criticisms of Roman Catholicism, no matter if
said criticism was from Jews, from other versions
of christianity, from pagans, or from other dis-
senters who were viewed as a threat to the the-
ocratized Roman Catholic state.
}} 108. The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You
}} to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor)
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 109. Deconstructing Jesus, by Robert M. Price
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573927589
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 110. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark,
}} by Dennis R. MacDonald
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300080123
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 111. Jesus : One Hundred Years Before Christ,
}} by Alvar Ellegard
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879517204
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 112. Why Christianity Must Change or Die :
}} A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile,
}} by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 113. Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With
}} Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of
}} Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 114. Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop's
}} Search for the Origins of Christianity,
}} by John Shelby Spong
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 115. Born of a Woman : A Bishop Rethinks
}} the Birth of Jesus, by John Shelby Spong
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675233
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 116. Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism :
}} A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture,
}} by John Shelby Spong
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675187
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 117. One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus
}} Inspired Not One True Christianity, but
}} Many : The Truth About Christian Origins,
}} by Gregory J. Riley
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 118. The Case Against Christianity,
}} by Michael Martin
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 119. The Christ Myth, by Arthur Drews
}
} Historian? NO.
} Mathematician.
A mathematician, geez, the guy must be over-
whelmed with the evidence for christianity? What,
he's not?
Insofar as you're willing to disclaim criticisms from
so-called non-historians, no matter how well-schooled,
disciplined, well-read, well-supported, might I ask,
would you be willing to disclaim acclaim or presump-
tion of verity towards the writers of the christian bible,
most of whom are under the esteemed category of
unknown, most of whom who received what little
education they had from superstitious religious
types, deeply steeped in the mythos of the day
and age in which they lived, in all likelihood?
After all, naturalists among the bible writers, not
likely, well-trained historians among the bible
writers, highly unlikely, as not much was known
about natural history in those days. Most of what
was presented regarding history was simply myth.
Odd then that you'd be so critical of modern day
criticisms by well-educated doubters in myths,
individuals with far more knowledge of natural
history, archeology, science, and other cultures
than the bible writers, simply because they don't,
in your view, qualify as having 'enough' qualifica-
tion to be considered a so-called 'professional
historian'.
Speaking of history and ahistoricity ...
Did Jesus Exist?
Earl Doherty and the Argument to Ahistoricity
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml#Ahistoricity
Excerpts:
....
Arguing for Ahistoricity
We must compare the standard historicist theory
(SHT) with Doherty's ahistoricist or "mythicist" theory
(DMT). I have already refuted the popular misnotion
that "you can't prove a negative" in my essay " Prov-
ing a Negative."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html
....
There are two ways to "prove" ahistoricity:
(1) If you can demonstrate that there is both
(a) insufficient evidence to believe x and
(b) sufficient evidence to disbelieve x,
then it is reasonable to disbelieve x.
This is the "Argument from Silence."
(2) If you can demonstrate that all the evidence can
be far better accounted for by a theory (y) other than
historicity (theory x), then it is reasonable to believe
y and, consequently, to disbelieve x.
This is the "Argument to the Best Explanation."
....
}} - - -
}}
}} 120. Forgery in Christianity : A Documented
}} Record of the Foundations of the Christian
}} Religion, by Joseph Wheless
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592251
}
} A lawyer,given to badly misquoting.
Rather than a christian or historian given to badly
misquoting?
} Roger Pearse has documented some of
} his malfeasance.
Is Roger guilty of badly misquoting, too?
And you believe Roger Pearse because he's one
disposed to buy into the christian myths? Hmmm,
buying into the christian myths must be something
you're in favor of, not that that has anything to do
with open-minded search for verity, it's just that you
like the christian myth so much that anyone who
tries to prop it up is ... oh I dunno, you tell me, of
the christians trying to prop up christianity, which
ones do you doubt in?
Well, if you're a typical christian, you treat christians
like John Shelby Spong as anything from wrong to
misguided to on their way to hell, although I note
that you skipped over his work (without comment)
in your sparse replies to the book list.
}} 121. Is It God's Word : An Exposition of the
}} Fables & Mythology of the Bible & the Fallacies
}} of Theology, by Joseph Wheless
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156459226X
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 122. The Myth of the Resurrection and Other
}} Essays, by Joseph McCabe
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758333
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 123. The Forgery of the Old Testament and Other
}} Essays, by Joseph McCabe
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758503
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 124. Making of the Messiah : Christianity and
}} Resentment, by Robert Sheaffer
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879756918
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 125. Gospel Fictions, by Randel Helms
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879755725
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 126. Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin
}} and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter,
}} preface by Paul Tice
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592111
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 127. Jesus Christ, Sun of God : Ancient Cosmology
}} and Early Christian Symbolism, by David Fideler
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0835606961
}}
}} - - -
}}
}} 128. Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making
}} of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186
}}
}}
}} 129. The Jesus Legend, by G.A. Wells
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812693345
}
} A professor of German,who now admits he was wrong!
Interesting, you criticized christian doubters that
*weren't* proclaimed historians and now you like
a 'professor of German' (not a so-called 'profes-
sional historian'?) because, according to you, he
"admits he was wrong!" ?
While acknowledging professor Wells is more than
open to revising his theories, and admitting to any
particulars he was wrong about, I seriously doubt
your implication that he admitted he was wrong
about his overall doubt towards the so-called chris-
tian savior mythos promoted by christian literalists.
Here are some excerpts regarding a recent work of
his, published January 1, 2004: "Can We Trust the
New Testament?: Thoughts on the Reliability of Early
Christian Testimony"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=G.%20A.%20Wells/103-8501660-1047868
Excerpts:
....
The gospels included in the New Testament (NT)
are widely agreed to have been written between
A.D. 70 and 100. In these four gospels, it is claimed
that Jesus taught in Galilee in the opening decades
of the first century, worked miracles there, or what
at any rate were taken for miracles, and died in
Jerusalem at the behest of the Roman governor
Pontius Pilate.
And yet, as I have reiterated in "The Jesus Legend"
(1996) and "The Jesus Myth" (1999), none of these
things are claimed, or even mentioned, in the earliest
surviving Christian documents. In other words, none
of these supposed historical events are touched
upon in extant Christian documents which are either
earlier than the gospels or early enough to have been
written independently of them (that is, before those
gospels or the traditions underlying them had be-
come generally known in Christian circles).
This discrepancy is particularly striking when behav-
iour or teaching recorded in the gospels has obvi-
ous relevance to the concerns being pursued by the
earlier Christian authors. The NT scholar Graham
Stanton frankly calls it "baffling" that Paul, writing in
the 50s, fails to "refer more frequently and at greater
length to the actions and teaching of Jesus," partic-
ularly at points where "he might well have clinched
his argument by doing so."
....
Product Description:
Can We Trust the New Testament? Questions the
historical accuracy of widely held views of early
Christianity. In this book radical Bible scholar G. A.
Wells examines Biblical accounts of the lives of the
apostles Peter and Paul and presents evidence that
the events described in the New Testament were
written over time to support the agendas of the
Christian church. He embarks on a close analysis
of the Book of Acts, questioning its authorship and
casting doubt on the events it and the gospels des-
cribe.
....
- - -
}} 130. Buddha and Christ: Nativity Stories and Indian
}} Traditions, by Zacharias P. Thundy
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9004097414
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 07:01:33 AM |
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Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
}} 120. Forgery in Christianity : A Documented
}} Record of the Foundations of the Christian
}} Religion, by Joseph Wheless
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592251
}
} A lawyer,given to badly misquoting.
} Roger Pearse has documented some of
} his malfeasance.
Is Roger guilty of badly misquoting, too?
And you believe Roger Pearse because he's one
disposed to buy into the christian myths? ...
No-one is required to 'believe Roger Pearse.' What they do, I trust,
is look at the citations from Wheless and follow the links to the
original he misrepresents.
Hmmm, buying into the christian myths must be something
you're in favor of, not that that has anything to do
with open-minded search for verity, it's just that you
like the christian myth so much that anyone who
tries to prop it up is ... oh I dunno, you tell me, of
the christians trying to prop up christianity, which
ones do you doubt in?
You project your own religious bias on others here, I think.
By the way, are you still claiming your posts are not anti-Christian?
:)
[snip]
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 09:10:19 AM |
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<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote quite a bit, Roger
Pearse skipping almost all in order to respond to a
mention of Roger Pearse ...
}} 120. Forgery in Christianity : A Documented
}} Record of the Foundations of the Christian
}} Religion, by Joseph Wheless
}} http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592251
}
} A lawyer,given to badly misquoting.
} Roger Pearse has documented some of
} his malfeasance.
Is Roger guilty of badly misquoting, too?
And you believe Roger Pearse because he's one
disposed to buy into the christian myths? ...
[...]
Skipped latest RP spin on his belief in myths.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 09:38:42 AM |
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Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
<roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote ...
And you believe Roger Pearse because he's one
disposed to buy into the christian myths? ...
[...]
Skipped latest RP spin on his belief in myths.
Too scared of reason even to leave my comments in... how sad.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 07:00:40 AM |
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John Ings wrote:
And by your reply you do a good job of displaying your inability to
rebut the points I made.
Oh, how we're flattering ourselves, today, John. Are you claiming to
have made a point? Perhaps you should go back and look at your post
again. Read through your comments. You offered nothing at all that
even resembled a point. You only voiced your boredom with life and
your bitterness toward the God.
Maybe you think you're the first one to do so (so many unbelievers do
think that way)? Maybe you think your empty complaints are the very
first words against God and His message ever to be spoken? Or maybe
you simply think that you're the first unbeliever to object to biblical
Christian faith here on the internet/usenet groups.
Yes, that must be it.
As a favor, I'll share this with you, and then give you one more chance
to say something meaningful. Sound fair?
John, guys like you come into these groups, spouting off idle
objections and silly nonsense every single day. Most make ridiculous
and empty remarks, just as you did. In fact, many of the remarks are
about the same in content. Lots of idle kids out there, bored with
cartoons, daytime TV, & their electronic games, I suppose. And also
way too many idle adults who should be working & living useful lives,
but who are sitting on their butts, playing with computers, instead.
Now, if you really have a point to make, something meaningful to say
about life, about God, about Christian faith, then fine. I'm willing
to hear it. Otherwise, your posts are only boring, boring, boring --
and all too common for anyone to take seriously.
Last shot at my attention, John.
Jim
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 09:37:34 AM |
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Jim wrote:
John Ings wrote:
And by your reply you do a good job of displaying your inability to
rebut the points I made.
Oh, how we're flattering ourselves, today, John. Are you claiming to
have made a point? Perhaps you should go back and look at your post
again. Read through your comments. You offered nothing at all that
even resembled a point. You only voiced your boredom with life and
your bitterness toward the God.
[Lots of sanity snipped]
I'm afraid this sort of atheist is little more than a troll.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 09:06:36 AM |
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On 30 Mar 2005 05:00:40 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
And by your reply you do a good job of displaying your inability to
rebut the points I made.
Oh, how we're flattering ourselves, today, John. Are you claiming to
have made a point?
Come on Jim, quit posturing and try some actual debate.
Perhaps you should go back and look at your post
again. Read through your comments. You offered nothing at all that
even resembled a point.
That's an easy claim, but you've not proven it.
You only voiced your boredom with life and
your bitterness toward the God.
You're ducking and dodging and evading Jim. Try demonstrating how
wrong I am instead of just stating so and pretending wisdom whose
terrible potency you have not deigned to unleash.
Maybe you think you're the first one to do so (so many unbelievers do
think that way)?
Don't be silly. Many have indeed done so, and I've yet to see a
telling rebuttal.
Maybe you think your empty complaints are the very
first words against God and His message ever to be spoken?
I'm not speaking against God. I'm challenging YOU! Your vision of God
and your concept of His message is what's in question.
Or maybe
you simply think that you're the first unbeliever to object to biblical
Christian faith here on the internet/usenet groups.
Yes, that must be it.
If you truly think that you're pretty obtuse Jim. Your haughty
demeanor indicates to me that you know damn well you can't transmute
faith into fact and that if you try you're going to get defeated in
debate, so you coyly won't enter the arena. You want everyone to
believe that all such questions have been sucessfully rebutted in the
past and all this is beneath your notice. But the truth is otherwise
and you know it.
As a favor, I'll share this with you, and then give you one more chance
to say something meaningful. Sound fair?
No. You're still ducking and dodging. You advanced your sincere belief
as fact and got called on it. Faith is what you have, not proven fact.
John, guys like you come into these groups, spouting off idle
objections and silly nonsense every single day.
Easily said Jim. Now demonstrate.
Most make ridiculous and empty remarks, just as you did.
Then show us. Answer the challenges.
In fact, many of the remarks are
about the same in content. Lots of idle kids out there, bored with
cartoons, daytime TV, & their electronic games, I suppose. And also
way too many idle adults who should be working & living useful lives,
but who are sitting on their butts, playing with computers, instead.
Now, if you really have a point to make, something meaningful to say
about life, about God, about Christian faith, then fine. I'm willing
to hear it. Otherwise, your posts are only boring, boring, boring --
and all too common for anyone to take seriously.
Boring or unanswerable Jim?
"What I realize, P-H, is that Jesus Christ is very real and very much
alive" you declared. Not a statement of faith. You didn't say
"I believe" you said "I realize". You don't realize! You just believe,
on no evidence.
"Matter and energy is not eternal. They were created by God."
you said. Not "I believe matter and energy is not eternal." No, you
flatly stated as a fact something you cannot possibly know is a fact.
Ditto that claim about God.
"Proto-human minds may struggle to get such basic truths into their
tiny thought patterns, but that personal difficulty on their part does
not alter reality at all." you prate. What a colossal conceit! What
the heck do you know about reality?
Last shot at my attention, John.
Climb down off your high horse you poseur. Address the issue.
Substantiate your claims.
## Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
## without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
30 Mar 2005 07:49:20 PM |
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John Ings wrote:
Come on Jim, quit posturing and try some actual debate.
<and then pretty much the same stuff as before...>
Oh, well. At least you had the chance.
Jim
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
31 Mar 2005 07:18:50 AM |
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On 30 Mar 2005 17:49:20 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
John Ings wrote:
Come on Jim, quit posturing and try some actual debate.
<and then pretty much the same stuff as before...>
Oh, well. At least you had the chance.
Brave Sir Jim ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Jim turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Jim!
He is packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering off
And chickening out and pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge...
## Lepus tute es; et pulpamentum quaeris!
.
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
31 Mar 2005 10:06:36 AM |
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John Ings wrote:
On 30 Mar 2005 17:49:20 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
John Ings wrote:
Come on Jim, quit posturing and try some actual debate.
<and then pretty much the same stuff as before...>
Oh, well. At least you had the chance.
Brave Sir Jim ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Jim turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Jim!
He is packing it in and packing it up
And sneaking away and buggering off
And chickening out and pissing off home,
Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge...
## Lepus tute es; et pulpamentum quaeris!
Yes. That must be it. I am afraid and unable to speak. I tremble at
the very thought of saying anything. (Say, is that a goose bump on my
arm?)
In the mean time, John, have a great day -- and watch out for crazy
drivers if you make it outside. Some folks have given an arm and a leg
just to cross the street.
Jim
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
31 Mar 2005 02:40:18 PM |
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On 31 Mar 2005 08:06:36 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
Yes. That must be it. I am afraid and unable to speak.
Because you know that you said "I know" when you
should have said "I believe" and that's an indefensible position.
## Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther
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| User: "Jim" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
31 Mar 2005 05:41:45 PM |
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John Ings wrote:
On 31 Mar 2005 08:06:36 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
Yes. That must be it. I am afraid and unable to speak.
Because you know that you said "I know" when you
should have said "I believe" and that's an indefensible position.
## Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther
I think you're trying way too hard to control other people's thinking
and speaking. Maybe it was something that happened in your childhood,
back in the formative years.
Is there something you need to tell us, John?
Jim
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: celebrating easter -- what are we celebrating? |
31 Mar 2005 07:59:54 PM |
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On 31 Mar 2005 15:41:45 -0800, "Jim" <jim@goodwordusa.org> wrote:
Because you know that you said "I know" when you
should have said "I believe" and that's an indefensible position.
I think you're trying way too hard to control other people's thinking
and speaking.
By calling you on an error?
Is there something you need to tell us, John?
Yes. Faith isn't knowledge Jim. Those reading your homilies
need to be told that. That you already know it yourself is indicated
by your unwillingness to debate.
## Faith enslaves thought so as not to be troubled by doubt
.
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