| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2004 02:07:16 AM |
| Object: |
CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor. 7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
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| User: "Andrew W \Paranormal Agnostic" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 05:24:12 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpvkhf$ngt$1@news3.bu.edu...
Are any of us normal? What is normal? Is there some outline for who a
normal person is? Is it Richie Cunninham? What defines this "normal"
status? What culture does this "normal human" arise from? Out of the 6.4
billion or so individuals on this world, which one defines "normal"?
Exactly. There is no such thing as normal, only more common and less common.
Therefore, why does the Christian God want perfection from us if we aren't
even normal?
Paul was celibate. Was he, then, not normal? If so, that would indicate
he was abnormal. Was he abnormal in a good way or bad way?
He was abnormal in a creative way. He was a creative writer and thinker who
thought up a lot of mystical ideas which were included in the creative
mystical book known as the bible which was then sold to billions.
--
Andrew W. (Paranormal Agnostic) An interest in the paranormal (spiritual)
but with acknowledgement that it's existence can neither be proved nor
disproved (agnostic).
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us." ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 06:19:19 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:53:43 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
Are any of us normal? What is normal? Is there some outline for who a
normal person is? Is it Richie Cunninham? What defines this "normal"
status? What culture does this "normal human" arise from? Out of the 6.4
billion or so individuals on this world, which one defines "normal"?
Normal adult males
1. marry and have children
2. don't pretend little boys are adult women
jw
Paul was celibate. Was he, then, not normal? If so, that would indicate he
was abnormal. Was he abnormal in a good way or bad way?
-RS
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 12:17:43 AM |
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Your hate-mongering ways only continue to shine through.
Sexual immorality exists far beyond the confines of the Roman Catholic
Church.
Normal adult males:
1. healthy and strong
2. caring and passionate
3. immature and mature (when so needed to be)
Just because an adult male isn't married with children doesn't mean he isn't
normal.
You do not define normal for there is no normal. Each and every person on
this planet is an individual. There are no norms and those who place them
on society have in their mind a will of discrimination against those who are
different. (my own personal experiences)
-RS
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 06:13:57 PM |
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On 17-Dec-2004, "Andrew W \(Paranormal Agnostic\)"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
Remaining celibate for life is impossible for a normal human. We have to
then conclude that priests are not normal.
That's our modern sex-worshipping secular society talking. For 99% of human
history, chastity has been considered an ideal. 'Modern' thinking denies
God, and therefore denies that we humans are anything more than advanced
primates, and being just animals, there is no real reason why we shouldn't
act like them. Catholicism, on the other hand, believes that we are far more
than the sum of our parts, and can aspire to far greater things. Self
mastery, objective morals, respect for our fellow humans... these are
attributes required by the chaste person, but are of no benefit to
chimpanzee.
Here, have a banana.
H.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 03:42:28 PM |
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RS wrote:
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry,
they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
There are a number of vocations in the Church:
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to religious life
Holy Orders
Vocation to single lay life.
If God calls a man to Holy Orders, that man willingly follows,
willingly
accepts a vow of celibacy, and willingly marries himself to service
to God.
There is no force or forbidasion (I made that word up for simple lack
of
conjugating it properly :p) involved. A man isn't forbidden from
marrying.
He takes a vow of celibacy before he becomes a priest. He can marry
and
still be active in the Church as God wants him to be (deacon or
minister).
-RS
-RS
My diocese has some married Roman Catholic priests. They were married
Anglican priests who wanted to become Roman Catholic at the time women
priests appeared in Anglicanism.
I understand that in the 1st 1000 years or so there were married
priests, but marriage was banned to protect church wealth. There must
be lots on interesting information in the Vatican archive.
I have come to the conclusion that the married life is accepting one's
humanity, and such a priest could better "shepherd his flock."
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 09:50:05 PM |
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<dwickford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103319747.976438.75060@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
RS wrote:
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry,
they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
There are a number of vocations in the Church:
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to religious life
Holy Orders
Vocation to single lay life.
If God calls a man to Holy Orders, that man willingly follows,
willingly
accepts a vow of celibacy, and willingly marries himself to service
to God.
There is no force or forbidasion (I made that word up for simple lack
of
conjugating it properly :p) involved. A man isn't forbidden from
marrying.
He takes a vow of celibacy before he becomes a priest. He can marry
and
still be active in the Church as God wants him to be (deacon or
minister).
-RS
-RS
My diocese has some married Roman Catholic priests. They were married
Anglican priests who wanted to become Roman Catholic at the time women
priests appeared in Anglicanism.
I understand that in the 1st 1000 years or so there were married
priests, but marriage was banned to protect church wealth. There must
be lots on interesting information in the Vatican archive.
I have come to the conclusion that the married life is accepting one's
humanity, and such a priest could better "shepherd his flock."
Better read this:
Note the reasons that the church forbids marriage, according to 1Tim. 4:1-3.
1. The Roman church has turned away from the faith
2. The Roman church has paid attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions.
3. The Roman church listens to the hypocrisy of liars with branded
consciences.
Therefore they forbid marriage. This may seem harsh but it's God's Word!
*Not only should church leaders be married, but believing women are to marry
as well, and not become celibate nuns:
So I would like younger widows to marry, have children, and manage a home,
so as to give the adversary no pretext for maligning us. (1 Timothy 5:14)
*Being married doesn't make a person any less "spiritual." The author of
Hebrews says that marriage is to be honored:
Let marriage be honored among all and the marriage bed be kept undefiled,
for God will judge the immoral and adulterers. (Hebrews 13:4)
*It's not what you should think is right. It's what the word of God teaches
us.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 12:22:50 AM |
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There is no forbidding marriage. Men are encouraged to marry if that be
their vocation. If, however, God is calling them to celibate life they have
three options: Religious life, single lay life, holy orders.
A person who becomes a priest is called by God to be a priest and to hold a
vow of celibacy. There is no forbidding. A priest choses the vow of
celibacy before he becomes a priest. In doing so, he CHOOSES to be married
to God in his service to the Church (the body of Christ, the whole
congregation).
If I take a vow of celibacy, I may become a priest. If, however, I am
called to marriage, I am called to a different evangelical mission (the
mission of the spiritual welfare of my wife). In the same way, a priest who
is married to the Church has the evangelical mission of the spiritual
welfare of the Church (the whole congregation).
-RS
-RS
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| User: "Chuckles" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 08:44:32 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ic4$8c4$1@news3.bu.edu...
There is no forbidding marriage. Men are encouraged to marry if that be
their vocation.
Vocation? I thought people marry because they're in love.
If, however, God is calling them to celibate life
How does God do this? You know, the calling part.
Does He actually talk to them or call them up on the
phone or something? Now the funnymentalists don't
say God is calling them, they claim God actually talks
to them...
they have
three options: Religious life, single lay life, holy orders.
Well, for me, only the second option would do, the single
"lay" life
A person who becomes a priest is called by God to be a priest and to hold a
vow of celibacy.
So God calls the applicant up on the phone and tells him to be
a priest?
There is no forbidding. A priest choses the vow of
celibacy before he becomes a priest.
Its a darn shame so many gay pedophiles have been choosing the
priesthood, isn't it? I wonder who "called" them? Satan?
In doing so, he CHOOSES to be married
to God in his service to the Church
Yeah, sorta like the nuns are married to Jesus? I can understand
the nuns doing that, but a male priest being married to a male
god is a same-sex marriage, is it not? If your priests are in a
same-sex marriage, what's wrong with parishoners doing the
same? Here we have another typical case of "do as I say and
not as I do."
If I take a vow of celibacy, I may become a priest.
Actually, I can see a few advantages to celibacy. It's tough being
a preachers kid. And the fewer Catholics having kids, the better off
we'll all be.
If, however, I am
called to marriage, I am called to a different evangelical mission (the
mission of the spiritual welfare of my wife).
Your wife is incapable of handling her own spiritual welfare?
In the same way, a priest who
is married to the Church...
Hmm, maybe the pedophilia makes a bit more sense. So these
priests who are buggering kids are just having sex with their
"wives?"
You certainly do belong to a very wierd cult. Have you ever
thought about just living a normal life?
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 03:20:55 PM |
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"Chuckles" <pleasenospammy@nonospammy.com> wrote in message
news:knXwd.1116741$Gx4.337641@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ic4$8c4$1@news3.bu.edu...
There is no forbidding marriage. Men are encouraged to marry if that be
their vocation.
Vocation? I thought people marry because they're in love.
If, however, God is calling them to celibate life
How does God do this? You know, the calling part.
Does He actually talk to them or call them up on the
phone or something? Now the funnymentalists don't
say God is calling them, they claim God actually talks
to them...
Through careful prayer and consideration, through the advice and guidance of
others, and through signs and signals, God reveals his will to the world.
<snip>
There is no forbidding. A priest choses the vow of
celibacy before he becomes a priest.
Its a darn shame so many gay pedophiles have been choosing the
priesthood, isn't it? I wonder who "called" them? Satan?
It could very well possibly be that the Enemy decieved these men into
thinking that their vocation were to the priesthood. If they couldn't
uphold their vow of celibacy, it wasn't God who called them to Holy Orders.
God never gives us anything we can't handle. God wouldn't call someone to
the vow of celibacy if hte person couldn't handle it.
<snip>
Yeah, sorta like the nuns are married to Jesus? I can understand
the nuns doing that, but a male priest being married to a male
god is a same-sex marriage, is it not? If your priests are in a
same-sex marriage, what's wrong with parishoners doing the
same? Here we have another typical case of "do as I say and
not as I do."
Priests aren't "married to Jesus". They are married to the Church. The
term "marriage" in this sense is symbolic of devoting oneself fully to
ensuring the spiritual well-being of those whom are a part of your family
(in teh case of priests, all the congregation of the Church) More
specifically, however, the parish the priest has been assigned to.
As for nuns marrying Jesus, they do not physically marry Him, but
symbolically surrender themselves to His will. It is always the
responsibilty of the husband in a marriage to ensure the spiritual
well-being of the wife. Nuns, in this case, surrender themselves to the
will of God in order to be spiritually well with Him and serve the world
through His will.
If I take a vow of celibacy, I may become a priest.
Actually, I can see a few advantages to celibacy. It's tough being
a preachers kid. And the fewer Catholics having kids, the better off
we'll all be.
If, however, I am
called to marriage, I am called to a different evangelical mission (the
mission of the spiritual welfare of my wife).
Your wife is incapable of handling her own spiritual welfare?
Not at all. However, being one body with my wife (marriage is the union of
a man and women into one unit, one spiritual body), if my wife is struggling
spiritually so am I.
<snip>
You certainly do belong to a very wierd cult. Have you ever
thought about just living a normal life?
There are indeed cults within the Roman Catholic Church. A cult isn't
always a bad thing, as society has made them out to be. Though there are
cults which are evil, the cults within the Roman Catholic Church (such as
teh cult of Eucharistic adoration) is God inspired. This is, again, another
difference where the Catholic Church stands along side the time-justified
definition of a word and society has changed the word to mean something than
itself.
As for "normal life", who is the definition of a normal life? You certainly
aren't in my eyes, because each and every person on this world is an
individual and strange in their own way. There is no "norm" for their is no
unified culture to extract a norm from.
-RS
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| User: "Chuckles" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 05:38:00 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq2701$je$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Chuckles" <pleasenospammy@nonospammy.com> wrote in message
You certainly do belong to a very wierd cult. Have you ever
thought about just living a normal life?
As for "normal life", who is the definition of a normal life? You certainly
aren't in my eyes, because each and every person on this world is an
individual and strange in their own way. There is no "norm" for their is no
unified culture to extract a norm from.
Shucks RS, you're no fun at all to troll! You've refused to oblige me
with a flame! Can't you come up with any insults?
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 10:22:35 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ic4$8c4$1@news3.bu.edu...
There is no forbidding marriage. Men are encouraged to marry if that be
their vocation. If, however, God is calling them to celibate life they
have
three options: Religious life, single lay life, holy orders.
A person who becomes a priest is called by God to be a priest and to hold
a
vow of celibacy. There is no forbidding. A priest choses the vow of
celibacy before he becomes a priest. In doing so, he CHOOSES to be
married
to God in his service to the Church (the body of Christ, the whole
congregation).
If I take a vow of celibacy, I may become a priest. If, however, I am
called to marriage, I am called to a different evangelical mission (the
mission of the spiritual welfare of my wife). In the same way, a priest
who
is married to the Church has the evangelical mission of the spiritual
welfare of the Church (the whole congregation).
-RS
FYI only religous take a vow of celibacy. Non-religous priests (not monks
friars, etc) promise chastity. One can be married and remain chaste by
being
faithful in that marriage.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 03:23:29 PM |
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"billu" <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fPYwd.3235$Z47.631@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ic4$8c4$1@news3.bu.edu...
There is no forbidding marriage. Men are encouraged to marry if that be
their vocation. If, however, God is calling them to celibate life they
have
three options: Religious life, single lay life, holy orders.
A person who becomes a priest is called by God to be a priest and to hold
a
vow of celibacy. There is no forbidding. A priest choses the vow of
celibacy before he becomes a priest. In doing so, he CHOOSES to be
married
to God in his service to the Church (the body of Christ, the whole
congregation).
If I take a vow of celibacy, I may become a priest. If, however, I am
called to marriage, I am called to a different evangelical mission (the
mission of the spiritual welfare of my wife). In the same way, a priest
who
is married to the Church has the evangelical mission of the spiritual
welfare of the Church (the whole congregation).
-RS
FYI only religous take a vow of celibacy. Non-religous priests (not monks
friars, etc) promise chastity. One can be married and remain chaste by
being
faithful in that marriage.
That isn't necessarily true. A man or a woman can take a vow of celibacy.
Celibacy: A condition of being sexually chaste and unmarried
Chastity: the condition or qualityu of being pure or chaste. Virginity,
Virtuous character, celibacy.
Though they term it "chastity" during their vow, if they are not married to
a woman, they are celibate.
Chastity outside of marriage = celibacy
Priests take a life-long vow of celibacy.
When a religious life takes a vow of chastity, that isn't a final vow,
though an understanding. In being outside of marriage, the person must be
celibate as well, otherwise the vow of chastity has been broken.
-RS
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 05:59:11 PM |
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On 17-Dec-2004, wrote:
My diocese has some married Roman Catholic priests. They were married
Anglican priests who wanted to become Roman Catholic at the time women
priests appeared in Anglicanism.
I understand that in the 1st 1000 years or so there were married
priests, but marriage was banned to protect church wealth. There must
be lots on interesting information in the Vatican archive.
In truth, political power in those days was gained and weilded through
marriage. A celibate clergy minimized secular influence in the Church.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 11:20:16 PM |
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wrote:
On 17-Dec-2004, wrote:
My diocese has some married Roman Catholic priests. They were married
Anglican priests who wanted to become Roman Catholic at the time women
priests appeared in Anglicanism.
I understand that in the 1st 1000 years or so there were married
priests, but marriage was banned to protect church wealth. There must
be lots on interesting information in the Vatican archive.
In truth, political power in those days was gained and weilded through
marriage. A celibate clergy minimized secular influence in the Church.
Which in hindsight, may have been a big mistake...
Paul
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 11:56:07 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:31:44 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
That is what is known as "double-speak" in the novel, "1984."
Priests aren't forbidden to marry; they just can't be priests if they
marry.
contrast that with Paul's REPEATED instructions for those who wish to
be married to do so.
Paul also pointed out that those apostles among the 12 who were
married were totally free to take their wives with them on their
missionary journeys.
Meaning the forbidding of marriage for priests and nuns is "doctrines
of demons," that is, it did N OT come from God.
There are a number of vocations in the Church:
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to religious life
Holy Orders
Vocation to single lay life.
If God calls a man to Holy Orders, that man willingly follows, willingly
accepts a vow of celibacy,
There is no mention in scripture that marriage is forbidden to the
elders. To the contrary, all Paul said was that the elder could only
have one wife.
IOW, Paul said that the Christians who were polygamists could not be
elders.
AGAIN, you prove that you prefer the teachings of mammon to Divine
Writ.
But then, that's redundant; you're Roman Catholic.
jw
snip RCC vomit deleted
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 12:31:49 PM |
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"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:j576s0hh04vp71v4v58729irh6qah7cbhj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:31:44 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
That is what is known as "double-speak" in the novel, "1984."
Priests aren't forbidden to marry; they just can't be priests if they
marry.
contrast that with Paul's REPEATED instructions for those who wish to
be married to do so.
And thousands of priests who wanted to marry have married, but in
the Latin Rite they must leave their clerical life behind. They are still
priests though.
Paul also pointed out that those apostles among the 12 who were
married were totally free to take their wives with them on their
missionary journeys.
Meaning the forbidding of marriage for priests and nuns is "doctrines
of demons," that is, it did N OT come from God.
It's still not a doctrine no matter how much you want it to be. Heck
it's not even universal in the latin rite of the Church.
There are a number of vocations in the Church:
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to religious life
Holy Orders
Vocation to single lay life.
If God calls a man to Holy Orders, that man willingly follows, willingly
accepts a vow of celibacy,
There is no mention in scripture that marriage is forbidden to the
elders. To the contrary, all Paul said was that the elder could only
have one wife.
IOW, Paul said that the Christians who were polygamists could not be
elders.
AGAIN, you prove that you prefer the teachings of mammon to Divine
Writ.
You have not shown any doctrine that is contrary to scripture...
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 06:15:13 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:31:49 GMT, "billu" <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com>
wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:j576s0hh04vp71v4v58729irh6qah7cbhj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:31:44 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
That is what is known as "double-speak" in the novel, "1984."
Priests aren't forbidden to marry; they just can't be priests if they
marry.
contrast that with Paul's REPEATED instructions for those who wish to
be married to do so.
And thousands of priests who wanted to marry have married, but in
the Latin Rite they must leave their clerical life behind. They are still
priests though.
How interesting. I knew a student nun for several years who would
disagree with you.
I also briefly dated a Catholic girl who introduced me to her
roommate's boyfriend, a Roman Catholic boy who DESPERATELY wanted to
be a priest, but he knew from counseling with his priest that he would
no longer be eligible for the priesthood if
1. he married
2. if he continued to have a girlfriend and sleep with her.
He asked for my advice because he was torn between "serving God and
taking care of " his personal needs. He was unable to give up sex, he
felt (his words), so he was unable to fulfill the fondest wishes of
his soul.
That type of torture is not only counter-scriptural, it is demonic.
Jesus NEVER asked for any such sacrifice.
"God prefers mercy to sacrifice."
That passage means NOTHING to Roman Catholics, whose entire cult is
all about the sacrifices you MUST make (no choice here) to be a Roman
Catholic.
Paul also pointed out that those apostles among the 12 who were
married were totally free to take their wives with them on their
missionary journeys.
Meaning the forbidding of marriage for priests and nuns is "doctrines
of demons," that is, it did N OT come from God.
It's still not a doctrine no matter how much you want it to be. Heck
it's not even universal in the latin rite of the Church.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's a sin to tell a lie. Such a grievous sin, in fact, that Paul says
you can't be a habitual liar and go to Heaven.
And I know too many Roman Catholics, including a nun, who say you are
misinformed or lying.
jw
snipped the rabbit chasing...
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 06:59:51 PM |
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"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:ebt6s0pq8d2e77mgffj63a8hatdqp3v8t0@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:31:49 GMT, "billu" <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com>
wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:j576s0hh04vp71v4v58729irh6qah7cbhj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 05:31:44 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
That is what is known as "double-speak" in the novel, "1984."
Priests aren't forbidden to marry; they just can't be priests if they
marry.
contrast that with Paul's REPEATED instructions for those who wish to
be married to do so.
And thousands of priests who wanted to marry have married, but in
the Latin Rite they must leave their clerical life behind. They are
still
priests though.
How interesting. I knew a student nun for several years who would
disagree with you.
I also briefly dated a Catholic girl who introduced me to her
roommate's boyfriend, a Roman Catholic boy who DESPERATELY wanted to
be a priest, but he knew from counseling with his priest that he would
no longer be eligible for the priesthood if
1. he married
2. if he continued to have a girlfriend and sleep with her.
He asked for my advice because he was torn between "serving God and
taking care of " his personal needs. He was unable to give up sex, he
felt (his words), so he was unable to fulfill the fondest wishes of
his soul.
That type of torture is not only counter-scriptural, it is demonic.
Jesus NEVER asked for any such sacrifice.
"God prefers mercy to sacrifice."
That passage means NOTHING to Roman Catholics, whose entire cult is
all about the sacrifices you MUST make (no choice here) to be a Roman
Catholic.
Paul also pointed out that those apostles among the 12 who were
married were totally free to take their wives with them on their
missionary journeys.
Meaning the forbidding of marriage for priests and nuns is "doctrines
of demons," that is, it did N OT come from God.
It's still not a doctrine no matter how much you want it to be. Heck
it's not even universal in the latin rite of the Church.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's a sin to tell a lie. Such a grievous sin, in fact, that Paul says
you can't be a habitual liar and go to Heaven.
And I know too many Roman Catholics, including a nun, who say you are
misinformed or lying.
Look up Anglican use. There are married latin rite priests active in the
clergy
(not laicized) and living with their wife. They are converts from the CoE.
Also even if a priest marries and is laicized, he is still a priest. It's a
law
not a doctrine. All of your exlamations to the contrary will not change
that.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 12:05:39 AM |
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"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:ebt6s0pq8d2e77mgffj63a8hatdqp3v8t0@4ax.com...
I also briefly dated a Catholic girl who introduced me to her
roommate's boyfriend, a Roman Catholic boy who DESPERATELY wanted to
be a priest, but he knew from counseling with his priest that he would
no longer be eligible for the priesthood if
1. he married
2. if he continued to have a girlfriend and sleep with her.
1. He shouldn't be sleeping with her
2. There are a number of vocations in life:
Vocation to religious life
Vocation to single lay life
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to holy orders.
God calls someone only to one of those. Though the desire now may be to be
a priest and to be married, when God reveals to Him his vocation, he will
know what is meant to be.
He asked for my advice because he was torn between "serving God and
taking care of " his personal needs. He was unable to give up sex, he
felt (his words), so he was unable to fulfill the fondest wishes of
his soul.
God takes care of all needs. If he felt that the choice was between
"serving God" and "fulfilling his needs" then he was sadly misled if he felt
a need of his was to have sexual intercourse.
If he was having sex, he was a fornicator, and led astray by immorality.
That type of torture is not only counter-scriptural, it is demonic.
How is this torture? He was plagued by sexual disorder which isn't from
God. He was bothered by teh fact that he had a desire to become a priest
yet couldn't commit himself to celibacy for God. If a man is unable to give
up his desires to serve God's will, how close is that man to God?
Jesus NEVER asked for any such sacrifice.
"God prefers mercy to sacrifice."
That passage means NOTHING to Roman Catholics, whose entire cult is
all about the sacrifices you MUST make (no choice here) to be a Roman
Catholic.
On the contrary, I feel in mercy one has to sacrifice. In being a Roman
Catholic, the Church doesn't ask me to make sacrifices. It never has asked
me to make a sacrifice. I don't know where you are getting your information
from, but you are wrong. The holy vow of celibacy isn't a sacrifice in the
eyes of any priest I have talked to, or religious life. Though if you see
it as a sacrifice and understand that God is calling you to celibate life,
wouldn't you take the vow for God? Nothing happens in our vocation to God
that isn't the will of God. If God calls someone to celibate life, that is
God's perogative and not yours to judge.
-RS
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 09:54:50 AM |
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|
x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:05:39 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:ebt6s0pq8d2e77mgffj63a8hatdqp3v8t0@4ax.com...
I also briefly dated a Catholic girl who introduced me to her
roommate's boyfriend, a Roman Catholic boy who DESPERATELY wanted to
be a priest, but he knew from counseling with his priest that he would
no longer be eligible for the priesthood if
1. he married
2. if he continued to have a girlfriend and sleep with her.
1. He shouldn't be sleeping with her
2. There are a number of vocations in life:
Vocation to religious life
Vocation to single lay life
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to holy orders.
God calls someone only to one of those. Though the desire now may be to be
a priest and to be married, when God reveals to Him his vocation, he will
know what is meant to be.
You are so self-righteous, you continue to prove my point to the
extreme of vomiting.
Make those choices for yourself, not for others.
jw
snip
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 02:54:28 PM |
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I am marking those choices for myself. In the future, there are two general
vocations:
celibate-life or chaste-life
From celibate life I can choose the following:
holy orders
religious life
single lay life
God will guide me to wherever He needs me to be according to His will.
From chaste life there are two options:
single lay life (which is also celibate since chastity outside of marriage
is celibacy)
married life (which includes chastity as well, in correlation of NFP)
What other options are there for me aside from those? None. There aren't
ten million different paths, there is one path God has forged for me. I
will follow wherever He leads me. I feel, however, that I am called to
married life and to raising a family in Christ.
My point is one is called to celibate life before Holy orders, not after.
If one isn't called to the vow of celibacy, that person isn't following the
will of God to seek Holy Orders, but to follow their own desires.
Am I making any choice for you or anyone else? No. I am merely pointing out
that there are a limited number of choices to make. Anyhow, if you line
yourself to the will of our Heavenly Father, there are choices to make but
vocations to follow.
-RS
.
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 07:08:18 PM |
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|
x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:54:28 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
I am marking those choices for myself.
And if you wish to continue to annoy me, stop chopping out ALL the
previous text, so that I must GUESS what you are talking about.
The chopping is
1. dishonest
2. rude
In the future, there are two general
vocations:
celibate-life or chaste-life
From celibate life I can choose the following:
holy orders
religious life
single lay life
I do not find this in the Bible. What passage are you referring to?
And if you are telling me the teachings of men, (the RCC)
NOT INTERESTED !!!!!!!!!
for the 10 millionth time.
God will guide me to wherever He needs me to be according to His will.
From chaste life there are two options:
single lay life (which is also celibate since chastity outside of marriage
is celibacy)
married life (which includes chastity as well, in correlation of NFP)
What other options are there for me aside from those? None. There aren't
ten million different paths, there is one path God has forged for me. I
will follow wherever He leads me. I feel, however, that I am called to
married life and to raising a family in Christ.
We DO get choices. Let me give you a simple example.
When I was preparing/planning for seminary, I went to my
pastor/mentor, Dr. Jess Moody. I told him I had a problem. I explained
that I had been looking at seminaries, and I had found half-a-dozen.
My problem was that I had been praying for several months over which
to attend, but God had remained silent.
Jess asked for my list, studied it briefly, and said, "John, you have
chosen some EXCELLENT schools here. I'd HAPPILY recommend you for any
of these!" Then he blew me away, and taught me a VALUABLE lesson. He
asked me if I pray over what toothpaste to use. Do I pray over what
shirt to buy? No. I buy what I like.
He said, "When God seems silent on the issue, that is often because
ALL the choices you have in front of you are fine with God. His
silence indicates, "John, all those are FINE seminaries; YOU pick,
John!"
Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO instruction in the Bible that in ANY way
prohibits the elders from being married, I may choose to be both.
YOU have instead CHOSEN to let Rome take those choices away from you.
Do not blame me because you have mixed up notions and priorities.
And don't expect me to follow.
jw
My point is one is called to celibate life before Holy orders, not after.
And I have NO problem with any pastor who CHOOSES for himself to
remain single, although that is a DANGEROUS choice, and I'd keep the
women and children away from him.
If one isn't called to the vow of celibacy, that person isn't following the
will of God to seek Holy Orders, but to follow their own desires.
Says whom? Rome? I prefer to take my instructions from scripture; it
has no such silly requirements; those requirements are rightly called
"doctrines of demons."
Am I making any choice for you or anyone else? No. I am merely pointing out
that there are a limited number of choices to make.
THAT is the choice you make for others. Telling us "there are a
limited number of choices to make..." and then giving us those
choices.
Who do you think you are?
Anyhow, if you line
yourself to the will of our Heavenly Father, there are choices to make but
vocations to follow.
You would know NOTHING about that, since you have aligned yourself
with Rome, NOT with the Father.
jw
-RS
.
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| User: "RS" |
|
| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 08:29:57 PM |
|
|
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:v6k9s0118p41poep4iqqsdle4om15gadau@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:54:28 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
I am marking those choices for myself.
And if you wish to continue to annoy me, stop chopping out ALL the
previous text, so that I must GUESS what you are talking about.
The chopping is
1. dishonest
2. rude
In the future, there are two general
vocations:
celibate-life or chaste-life
From celibate life I can choose the following:
holy orders
religious life
single lay life
I do not find this in the Bible. What passage are you referring to?
And if you are telling me the teachings of men, (the RCC)
NOT INTERESTED !!!!!!!!!
for the 10 millionth time.
God will guide me to wherever He needs me to be according to His will.
From chaste life there are two options:
single lay life (which is also celibate since chastity outside of marriage
is celibacy)
married life (which includes chastity as well, in correlation of NFP)
What other options are there for me aside from those? None. There aren't
ten million different paths, there is one path God has forged for me. I
will follow wherever He leads me. I feel, however, that I am called to
married life and to raising a family in Christ.
We DO get choices. Let me give you a simple example.
When I was preparing/planning for seminary, I went to my
pastor/mentor, Dr. Jess Moody. I told him I had a problem. I explained
that I had been looking at seminaries, and I had found half-a-dozen.
My problem was that I had been praying for several months over which
to attend, but God had remained silent.
Jess asked for my list, studied it briefly, and said, "John, you have
chosen some EXCELLENT schools here. I'd HAPPILY recommend you for any
of these!" Then he blew me away, and taught me a VALUABLE lesson. He
asked me if I pray over what toothpaste to use. Do I pray over what
shirt to buy? No. I buy what I like.
He said, "When God seems silent on the issue, that is often because
ALL the choices you have in front of you are fine with God. His
silence indicates, "John, all those are FINE seminaries; YOU pick,
John!"
Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO instruction in the Bible that in ANY way
prohibits the elders from being married, I may choose to be both.
YOU have instead CHOSEN to let Rome take those choices away from you.
Do not blame me because you have mixed up notions and priorities.
And don't expect me to follow.
jw
My point is one is called to celibate life before Holy orders, not after.
And I have NO problem with any pastor who CHOOSES for himself to
remain single, although that is a DANGEROUS choice, and I'd keep the
women and children away from him.
If one isn't called to the vow of celibacy, that person isn't following
the
will of God to seek Holy Orders, but to follow their own desires.
Says whom? Rome? I prefer to take my instructions from scripture; it
has no such silly requirements; those requirements are rightly called
"doctrines of demons."
Am I making any choice for you or anyone else? No. I am merely pointing
out
that there are a limited number of choices to make.
THAT is the choice you make for others. Telling us "there are a
limited number of choices to make..." and then giving us those
choices.
Who do you think you are?
Anyhow, if you line
yourself to the will of our Heavenly Father, there are choices to make but
vocations to follow.
You seem to be misunderstanding me completely. In regards to the future
relationships we have, there are two options:
celibate life
non-celibate life
If you choose celibacy you can do a number of things:
religious life
holy orders
single lay life
If you choose not to be celibate for the rest of your life, in order to be
chaste and be sexually active under the guidance of God you need a wife,
hence married life.
That's it. There aren't any others in regards to the relationships you
have, for if you are not married you have to be celibate.
-RS
.
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| User: "j w" |
|
| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 08:25:50 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 21:29:57 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:v6k9s0118p41poep4iqqsdle4om15gadau@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:54:28 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
I am marking those choices for myself.
And if you wish to continue to annoy me, stop chopping out ALL the
previous text, so that I must GUESS what you are talking about.
The chopping is
1. dishonest
2. rude
In the future, there are two general
vocations:
celibate-life or chaste-life
From celibate life I can choose the following:
holy orders
religious life
single lay life
I do not find this in the Bible. What passage are you referring to?
And if you are telling me the teachings of men, (the RCC)
NOT INTERESTED !!!!!!!!!
for the 10 millionth time.
God will guide me to wherever He needs me to be according to His will.
From chaste life there are two options:
single lay life (which is also celibate since chastity outside of marriage
is celibacy)
married life (which includes chastity as well, in correlation of NFP)
What other options are there for me aside from those? None. There aren't
ten million different paths, there is one path God has forged for me. I
will follow wherever He leads me. I feel, however, that I am called to
married life and to raising a family in Christ.
We DO get choices. Let me give you a simple example.
When I was preparing/planning for seminary, I went to my
pastor/mentor, Dr. Jess Moody. I told him I had a problem. I explained
that I had been looking at seminaries, and I had found half-a-dozen.
My problem was that I had been praying for several months over which
to attend, but God had remained silent.
Jess asked for my list, studied it briefly, and said, "John, you have
chosen some EXCELLENT schools here. I'd HAPPILY recommend you for any
of these!" Then he blew me away, and taught me a VALUABLE lesson. He
asked me if I pray over what toothpaste to use. Do I pray over what
shirt to buy? No. I buy what I like.
He said, "When God seems silent on the issue, that is often because
ALL the choices you have in front of you are fine with God. His
silence indicates, "John, all those are FINE seminaries; YOU pick,
John!"
Since there is ABSOLUTELY NO instruction in the Bible that in ANY way
prohibits the elders from being married, I may choose to be both.
YOU have instead CHOSEN to let Rome take those choices away from you.
Do not blame me because you have mixed up notions and priorities.
And don't expect me to follow.
jw
My point is one is called to celibate life before Holy orders, not after.
And I have NO problem with any pastor who CHOOSES for himself to
remain single, although that is a DANGEROUS choice, and I'd keep the
women and children away from him.
If one isn't called to the vow of celibacy, that person isn't following
the
will of God to seek Holy Orders, but to follow their own desires.
Says whom? Rome? I prefer to take my instructions from scripture; it
has no such silly requirements; those requirements are rightly called
"doctrines of demons."
Am I making any choice for you or anyone else? No. I am merely pointing
out
that there are a limited number of choices to make.
THAT is the choice you make for others. Telling us "there are a
limited number of choices to make..." and then giving us those
choices.
Who do you think you are?
Anyhow, if you line
yourself to the will of our Heavenly Father, there are choices to make but
vocations to follow.
You seem to be misunderstanding me completely.
I don't misunderstand at all. I have been hearing all this-- if not in
outline form-- for 50 years.
What YOU have been taught that makes NO sense if you actually stop and
think about it, but which indicates your emotional/mental/spiritual
immaturity (to which someone else alluded when asking your age)
YOU have been mistaught that if I don't agree with you completely, you
simply haven't explained yourself thoroughly enough.
And when I explain it back to you, if I don't use all the words and
phrases and sentence patterns you've memorized, I've (others) have
missed the point.
My ex- was the same way. We'd argue for HOURS over some issue, and
attempting to be the male, I'd say, "I disagree. I'm going to do this
my way. Her response was always, "If you disagree, you OBVIOUSLY
don't understand; let me put it THIS way..."
You can talk until we're both 1,000 years old, and I will NEVER
believe the moon is actually made of green cheese. It ain't gonna
happen.
You have one view of your beliefs; I have an equally informed totally
opposite view.
You believe it's ok to violate scripture when Rome says so.
I don't.
Goodbye.
In regards to the future
relationships we have, there are two options:
celibate life
non-celibate life
If you choose celibacy you can do a number of things:
religious life
holy orders
single lay life
If you choose not to be celibate for the rest of your life, in order to be
chaste and be sexually active under the guidance of God you need a wife,
hence married life.
That's it. There aren't any others in regards to the relationships you
have, for if you are not married you have to be celibate.
Says who?
You keep quoting a source I spit on; Rome.
jw
-RS
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 11:08:33 AM |
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I don't believe the moon is made of green cheese so that is an invalid
argument.
-RS
<snip>
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| User: "j w" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 04:20:41 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:08:33 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
I don't believe the moon is made of green cheese so that is an invalid
argument.
STOP CHOPPING OFF ALL THE PREVIOUS DISCUSSION!
YOU MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW YOUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT!!!
And you have NO CLUE about the use of allegory or metaphor to make a
point.
jw
-RS
<snip>
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 05:14:05 PM |
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<snip>
If you are unable to follow msg board format, then don't read my posts. I
decided to chose (when your arguments are so mundane and pointless) chop
them. You have made no attempt to follow my train of thought. You are
irrational, out of control, vulgar, ignorant, and just plain clueless. If
you cannot follow a discussion in essay form, how do you justify yourself
saying you are capable of maintaining a solid debate.
Instead of addressing my points and concerns, you merely push them aside and
make wild and unjustified claims against my educational and scholastic life.
Step off, sir, unless you have anything of worth to proclaim.
-RS
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
|
| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
22 Dec 2004 10:45:18 PM |
|
|
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq5209$o5u$1@news3.bu.edu...
<snip>
If you are unable to follow msg board format, then don't read my posts. I
decided to chose (when your arguments are so mundane and pointless) chop
them. You have made no attempt to follow my train of thought. You are
irrational, out of control, vulgar, ignorant, and just plain clueless. If
you cannot follow a discussion in essay form, how do you justify yourself
saying you are capable of maintaining a solid debate.
Instead of addressing my points and concerns, you merely push them aside
and make wild and unjustified claims against my educational and scholastic
life. Step off, sir, unless you have anything of worth to proclaim.
Can't you see. Majority here doesn't like what you're doing on the posts.
Will you be kind enough to adjust please?
.
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| User: "CB" |
|
| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 07:18:13 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 18:14:05 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
<snip>
If you are unable to follow msg board format, then don't read my posts.
If you are going to snip anything at least leave intact what you are replying
to.
You are the one that needs to learn msg board format as well as Truth.
I
decided to chose (when your arguments are so mundane and pointless) chop
them. You have made no attempt to follow my train of thought. You are
irrational, out of control, vulgar, ignorant, and just plain clueless.
You're the catholic so clueless is you.
-RS
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psalm 8:1
.
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| User: "RS" |
|
| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
20 Dec 2004 02:26:19 AM |
|
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<snip>
If I am responding to the passage as a whole and am writing in essay format,
I will snip it all for sake of making my point more clear instead of
spreading it over three pages of carrotted comments. I've been on many
newsgroups before. You don't define the rules of it, for all of the
newsgroups I have been on before believe in top posting.
-RS
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