| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2004 02:07:16 AM |
| Object: |
CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor. 7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
23 Dec 2004 11:33:22 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga:
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Interesting that they would call it ancient, since it is really only
medieval. And note that it is canon law, not doctrine. There ARE
married priests within the RCC's communion (mainly in eastern Uniate
rites).
Are priests to marry?
According to scripture they are to be monogamous, not celibate. And most
catholic rites do not follow the Roman custom of celibacy. But you err
in terming it a doctrine (just as those RCC people who treat it as one
err). It does not have the status of doctrine even within the RCC. It's
a very heavily entrenched CUSTOM, though and one that has affected the
entire hierarchy of their branch of the Church, often to its detriment.
Personally, I think St. Paul trumps Pope John Paul on this one. But be
correct. It's a custom, not a doctrine--which means it's much more
easily changed.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
23 Dec 2004 02:29:48 PM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns95C8614762A6Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga:
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Interesting that they would call it ancient, since it is really only
medieval. And note that it is canon law, not doctrine. There ARE
married priests within the RCC's communion (mainly in eastern Uniate
rites).
Are priests to marry?
According to scripture they are to be monogamous, not celibate. And most
catholic rites do not follow the Roman custom of celibacy. But you err
in terming it a doctrine (just as those RCC people who treat it as one
err). It does not have the status of doctrine even within the RCC. It's
a very heavily entrenched CUSTOM, though and one that has affected the
entire hierarchy of their branch of the Church, often to its detriment.
Personally, I think St. Paul trumps Pope John Paul on this one. But be
correct. It's a custom, not a doctrine--which means it's much more
easily changed.
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate,
self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach...He must manage his own
household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for
if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care
of the church of God?...Deacons may be married only once and must manage
their children and their households well. (1 Timothy 3:2,4-5,12)
Not only should church leaders be married, but believing women are to marry
as well, and not become celibate nuns:
So I would like younger widows to marry, have children, and manage a home,
so as to give the adversary no pretext for maligning us. (1 Timothy 5:14)
....but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is
better to marry than to be on fire. (1 Corinthians 7:9)
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 06:06:31 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga...
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor. 7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own
wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his
wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I
instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the
father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
No it is not a doctrine it is a law as described in the first paragraph as
you
have posted. If it were a doctrine then the Church would not recognize
those who are married as priests and we do because we have them.
So think some more on it.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 09:25:59 PM |
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"billu" <billu@*nospam*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bZzwd.2160$Z47.873@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga...
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor.
7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own
wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his
wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I
instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the
father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
No it is not a doctrine it is a law as described in the first paragraph as
you
have posted. If it were a doctrine then the Church would not recognize
those who are married as priests and we do because we have them.
So think some more on it.
Law of priestly celibacy = doctrines of devils. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 12:24:38 AM |
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Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow.
A man is called by God to the vow of celibacy and into the service of the
Church. The man must first be called to the vow of celibacy, and then to
the priesthood. It isn't forced on him. If he isn't called to celibacy and
marriage to the Church, he is called to married life, making his mission the
spiritual welfare of his wife).
A man's main concern is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that be the
Church or a woman or a group of people (religious life) is up to God.
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 12:41:39 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ifh$8ea$1@news3.bu.edu...
Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow.
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Now, will you again deny your contradicting statement?
Do RCC allow your priests to get married & stay in service?
A man is called by God to the vow of celibacy and into the service of the
Church. The man must first be called to the vow of celibacy, and then to
the priesthood. It isn't forced on him. If he isn't called to celibacy
and marriage to the Church, he is called to married life, making his
mission the spiritual welfare of his wife).
A man's main concern is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that be the
Church or a woman or a group of people (religious life) is up to God.
Now, read & understand:
*In 1 Timothy Paul says that one of the qualifications for being an elder or
deacon in the church is that the person must be able to govern his own
household, implying he has a wife and children:
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate,
self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach...He must manage his own
household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity; for
if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care
of the church of God?...Deacons may be married only once and must manage
their children and their households well. (1 Timothy 3:2,4-5,12)
*Roman Catholicism is the only religion that has ever existed that forbids
marriage among its clergy. Read what Paul says regarding how this came
about:
Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away
from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They
forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be
received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (1
Timothy 4:1-3)
* RCC also ask members not to eat meat in some days.
.
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| User: "billu" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 09:47:49 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3oQwd.2903$ev7.2790@fe12.lga...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ifh$8ea$1@news3.bu.edu...
Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow.
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Now, will you again deny your contradicting statement?
Do RCC allow your priests to get married & stay in service?
They are still priests (one cannot be unpriested) but they no
longer live a clerical life. So they are priests and they are
married.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 01:41:49 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3oQwd.2903$ev7.2790@fe12.lga...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ifh$8ea$1@news3.bu.edu...
Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow.
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Now, will you again deny your contradicting statement?
Do RCC allow your priests to get married & stay in service?
I never made any claim in regards to priests who were already in service.
In my eyes, if they were called to holy orders, they aren't called to the
sacrament of marrige. In wanting both or seeking both, they are not
following the will of our father in heaven.
A man is called by God to the vow of celibacy and into the service of the
Church. The man must first be called to the vow of celibacy, and then to
the priesthood. It isn't forced on him. If he isn't called to celibacy
and marriage to the Church, he is called to married life, making his
mission the spiritual welfare of his wife).
A man's main concern is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that be
the Church or a woman or a group of people (religious life) is up to God.
Now, read & understand:
*In 1 Timothy Paul says that one of the qualifications for being an elder
or deacon in the church is that the person must be able to govern his own
household, implying he has a wife and children:
A household in antiquity wasn't a wife and children, but a clan. A deacon
or bishop did have a clan. Today, however, it is expected that if a priest
cannot manage the household he has been given (the parish) he is not
qualified to hold the position and has followed his own vocation rather than
that of our heavenly Father.
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate,
self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach...He must manage his
own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect
dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how
can he take care of the church of God?...Deacons may be married only once
and must manage their children and their households well. (1 Timothy
3:2,4-5,12)
*Roman Catholicism is the only religion that has ever existed that forbids
marriage among its clergy. Read what Paul says regarding how this came
about:
It isn't forbidden. A priest may abandon his vows and position if he
desires to be married. A priest, after final vows, may recant his vows and
leave his position behind in honor if he so desires a wife. There can only
be one vocation (sacrament of marriage or sacrament of holy orders) God
calls one to married life or to celibacy. A man can't be called in both
directions by God.
Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away
from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They
forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be
received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. (1
Timothy 4:1-3)
* RCC also ask members not to eat meat in some days.
Ritual fasting and abstinence from meat isn't sinful. Breaking our bodies
for Christ is a great way of growing close to Him. These fasts aren't
demanded, but are recommended. No punishment will become someone who
chooses not to fast.
When we fast or abstain, we do so for a number of reasons:
Fasting should be done prayerfully. We would pray when we would normally
eat. We express that spiritual things are more important than physical
things. We deny pleasures, and recognize that we need to change to grow
closer to God.
To abstain from meat, in my eyes (though I will render a complete
justification of Catholic doctrine on this issue) is to abandon meat on
those days to recognize that Christ is nourishment enough. When I abstain
from meat on Fridays, I supplement that with Eucharist, recognizing that the
blessed sacrament, the body and blood of Christ is true meat and drink.
The marriage isn't forbidden. Priests may abandon their vocation if they
find that God's true vocation for them is marriage. There is also no
requirement of fasting, only suggestion. To not fast on certain days or to
break fast on days of fast does not result in ones being expelled from the
Church.
Your comparison to 1 Timothy is, therefore, rendered invalid in regards to
Church doctrine, since priests aren't forbidden to marry and people aren't
required to fast. Also, note that this passage doesn't indicate "they
forbid priests to marry" but "they forbid marriage". Anyone who is sound in
Catholic traditions know that the Church doesn't forbid marriage, but only
seeks to protect and enhance marriage as the unification of a man and a
woman into one body.
-RS
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 02:26:09 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0n08$ca9$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3oQwd.2903$ev7.2790@fe12.lga...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0ifh$8ea$1@news3.bu.edu...
Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow.
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Now, will you again deny your contradicting statement?
Do RCC allow your priests to get married & stay in service?
I never made any claim in regards to priests who were already in service.
In my eyes, if they were called to holy orders, they aren't called to the
sacrament of marrige. In wanting both or seeking both, they are not
following the will of our father in heaven.
You said "Celibacy isn't a law, it is a vow".
Now read: Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290
A man is called by God to the vow of celibacy and into the service of
the Church. The man must first be called to the vow of celibacy, and
then to the priesthood. It isn't forced on him. If he isn't called to
celibacy and marriage to the Church, he is called to married life,
making his mission the spiritual welfare of his wife).
A man's main concern is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that be
the Church or a woman or a group of people (religious life) is up to
God.
Now, read & understand:
*In 1 Timothy Paul says that one of the qualifications for being an elder
or deacon in the church is that the person must be able to govern his own
household, implying he has a wife and children:
A household in antiquity wasn't a wife and children, but a clan. A deacon
or bishop did have a clan. Today, however, it is expected that if a
priest cannot manage the household he has been given (the parish) he is
not qualified to hold the position and has followed his own vocation
rather than that of our heavenly Father.
Household, a clan???
Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate,
self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach...He must manage his
own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect
dignity; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how
can he take care of the church of God?...Deacons may be married only once
and must manage their children and their households well. (1 Timothy
3:2,4-5,12)
*Roman Catholicism is the only religion that has ever existed that
forbids marriage among its clergy. Read what Paul says regarding how this
came about:
It isn't forbidden. A priest may abandon his vows and position if he
desires to be married. A priest, after final vows, may recant his vows
and leave his position behind in honor if he so desires a wife. There can
only be one vocation (sacrament of marriage or sacrament of holy orders)
God calls one to married life or to celibacy. A man can't be called in
both directions by God.
Married only once.
Do you think the Apostles when they got married abandoned their position?
Never. Read 1 Timothy 3:2,4-5,12 and say if they have to abandon their duty
to God.
Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away
from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created
to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
(1 Timothy 4:1-3)
* RCC also ask members not to eat meat in some days.
Ritual fasting and abstinence from meat isn't sinful. Breaking our bodies
for Christ is a great way of growing close to Him. These fasts aren't
demanded, but are recommended. No punishment will become someone who
chooses not to fast.
RCC commanded to abstain from meats only during your holy friday.
Explain what Tim 4:1-3 means.
When we fast or abstain, we do so for a number of reasons:
Yes. 1 reason is 1 Tim 4:1-4.
....
To abstain from meat, in my eyes (though I will render a complete
justification of Catholic doctrine on this issue) is to abandon meat on
those days to recognize that Christ is nourishment enough. When I abstain
from meat on Fridays, I supplement that with Eucharist, recognizing that
the blessed sacrament, the body and blood of Christ is true meat and
drink.
The marriage isn't forbidden. Priests may abandon their vocation if they
find that God's true vocation for them is marriage. There is also no
requirement of fasting, only suggestion. To not fast on certain days or
to break fast on days of fast does not result in ones being expelled from
the Church.
Your comparison to 1 Timothy is, therefore, rendered invalid in regards to
Church doctrine, since priests aren't forbidden to marry and people aren't
required to fast. Also, note that this passage doesn't indicate "they
forbid priests to marry" but "they forbid marriage". Anyone who is sound
in Catholic traditions know that the Church doesn't forbid marriage, but
only seeks to protect and enhance marriage as the unification of a man and
a woman into one body.
Lie. I was there once.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 03:24:35 PM |
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<snip>
You were never there.
-RS
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 06:12:11 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq0n08$ca9$1@news3.bu.edu:
I never made any claim in regards to priests who were already in
service. In my eyes, if they were called to holy orders, they aren't
called to the sacrament of marrige. In wanting both or seeking both,
they are not following the will of our father in heaven.
In doesn't have doodley-squat to do with the will of our father in
heaven. The priesthood by itself is not Christian, whether they marry or
not.
A household in antiquity wasn't a wife and children, but a clan. A
deacon or bishop did have a clan. Today, however, it is expected that
if a priest cannot manage the household he has been given (the parish)
he is not qualified to hold the position and has followed his own
vocation rather than that of our heavenly Father.
More crap. A "household" as used means exactly what it means today.
It isn't forbidden. A priest may abandon his vows and position if he
desires to be married. A priest, after final vows, may recant his
vows and leave his position behind in honor if he so desires a wife.
There can only be one vocation (sacrament of marriage or sacrament of
holy orders) God calls one to married life or to celibacy. A man
can't be called in both directions by God.
Of course he can. Except for the bizarre practices of the RCC, people
are called in both directions all the time.
To abstain from meat, in my eyes (though I will render a complete
justification of Catholic doctrine on this issue) is to abandon meat
on those days to recognize that Christ is nourishment enough. When I
abstain from meat on Fridays, I supplement that with Eucharist,
recognizing that the blessed sacrament, the body and blood of Christ
is true meat and drink.
When did you ever get the blood, RCC cultie? I guess you aren't saved
after all.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 08:33:18 PM |
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<snip>
Done with you Dave. I am sorry but I cannot open the truth to anyone who
the Father doesn't call to. You are one of those people.
I pray that you hear His call in your life.
-RS
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 11:10:01 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq2p9n$33g$1@news3.bu.edu:
<snip>
Done with you Dave. I am sorry but I cannot open the truth to anyone
who the Father doesn't call to. You are one of those people.
The truth is not in you. You repeat formulas as if they were truth, instead
of more hocus-pocus.
I pray that you hear His call in your life.
I have a good relationship with god.
--
Bush is not my President.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 02:11:06 AM |
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<snip>
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| User: "H Dickmann" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 11:43:59 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga...
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1
Cor. 7:2-3 "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have
his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband
render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to
her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles
using the same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I
instructed you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only
once, the father of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
No, practice of the Nazarites who consecrated their life's to the service of
God.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 09:33:48 PM |
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"H Dickmann" <HERPEM@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:zVEwd.76412$K7.22650@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aywwd.2588$W03.2203@fe12.lga...
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1
Cor. 7:2-3 "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have
his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband
render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to
her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles
using the same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As
I instructed you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only
once, the father of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
No, practice of the Nazarites who consecrated their life's to the service
of God.
And using human reasoning to shield their false doctrines.
-----------------------------
Read this:
Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to
remain as they are, as I do... (1 Corinthians 7:8)
Please also read the next verse! It says:
....but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is
better to marry than to be on fire. (1 Corinthians 7:9)
That last phrase about being "on fire" implies "burning with lust." So it is
better to marry than to burn with lust.
---------------------------
This passage is not forbidding marriage in any way.(Mat. 19:11-12)
Some who have the gift of being able to remain single choose to direct their
free time to the kingdom of heaven. But not all church leaders are required
by this passage to remain single.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 12:48:48 PM |
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On 17-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor. 7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own
wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his
wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I
instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the
father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
Hmm... I see what you are saying, but, why then, did Jesus say: "Not all men
can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For
there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there
are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who
made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is
able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matt. 19:11-12)
And then, St. Paul comes along and says: "But I want you to be free from
concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how
he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things
of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided. The
woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the
Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married
is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to
promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the
Lord." (1 Cor. 7:32-35) And as if that wasn't enough, he sings the praises
of celibacy in 1 Cor. 7:8-9, 1 Cor. 7:36-40, and 1 Tim. 5:9-12.
Meanwhile, on Patmos, St. John is granted a vision... "These are the ones
who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste.
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been
purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb." (Rev.
14:4)
So, once again, we have a case of God not meaning what you think He means.
'Doctrine of devils' indeed! It sure sounds like celibacy is the prefered
state for those who serve the Lord. No 'devilish doctrine' here... just the
Bible ;)
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 09:41:37 PM |
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<hughbetcha@yessiree.ca> wrote in message
news:HfOdnYT6lYGQt17cRVn-gg@giganews.com...
On 17-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Are priests to marry?
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because
someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor.
7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own
wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his
wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The
Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I
instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the
father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
Hmm... I see what you are saying, but, why then, did Jesus say: "Not all
men
can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For
there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and
there
are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who
made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is
able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matt. 19:11-12)
This passage is not forbidding marriage in any way. Some who have the gift
of being able to remain single choose to direct their free time to the
kingdom of heaven. But not all church leaders are required by this passage
to remain single.
And then, St. Paul comes along and says: "But I want you to be free from
concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord,
how
he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the
things
of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
The
woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of
the
Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married
is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her
husband.
This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to
promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the
Lord." (1 Cor. 7:32-35) And as if that wasn't enough, he sings the praises
of celibacy in 1 Cor. 7:8-9, 1 Cor. 7:36-40, and 1 Tim. 5:9-12.
Again, celibacy can be a good thing but is not required. Those who cannot
control their sexual urges must get married, whether they are priests or
not. There is no obligation to remain celibate. See the next verse:
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon
you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without
distraction. (1 Corinthians 7:35)
If Paul is unwilling to put a restraint on people to remain single, why does
the Roman church insist on restraining its priests and nuns?
Meanwhile, on Patmos, St. John is granted a vision... "These are the ones
who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves
chaste.
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been
purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb." (Rev.
14:4)
So, once again, we have a case of God not meaning what you think He means.
'Doctrine of devils' indeed! It sure sounds like celibacy is the prefered
state for those who serve the Lord. No 'devilish doctrine' here... just
the
Bible ;)
Note the reasons that the church forbids marriage, according to 1 Tim.
4:1-3.
1. The Roman church has turned away from the faith
2. The Roman church has paid attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions.
3. The Roman church listens to the hypocrisy of liars with branded
consciences.
Therefore they forbid marriage. This may seem harsh but it's God's Word!
-------------------------
*Not only should church leaders be married, but believing women are to marry
as well, and not become celibate nuns:
So I would like younger widows to marry, have children, and manage a home,
so as to give the adversary no pretext for maligning us. (1 Timothy 5:14)
*Being married doesn't make a person any less "spiritual." The author of
Hebrews says that marriage is to be honored:
Let marriage be honored among all and the marriage bed be kept undefiled,
for God will judge the immoral and adulterers. (Hebrews 13:4)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 01:09:21 AM |
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On 17-Dec-2004, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hmm... I see what you are saying, but, why then, did Jesus say: "Not all
men
can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For
there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and
there
are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who
made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is
able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matt. 19:11-12)
This passage is not forbidding marriage in any way. Some who have the gift
of being able to remain single choose to direct their free time to the
kingdom of heaven. But not all church leaders are required by this passage
to remain single.
It says: "He who is able to to accept this, let him accept it." Chastity is
an IDEAL, and if you can hack it, you should do it. Since it is a matter of
self-mastery, any man of faith and good character can hack it. It is not
unreasonable then, to expect your clergy to be men of faith and good
chraracter. Just becasue Jesus did not implicity demand chastity (but only
recommended it) you figure that there's no value to it. You are like a
criminal looking for loopholes in the law.
This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to
promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the
Lord." (1 Cor. 7:32-35) And as if that wasn't enough, he sings the
praises
of celibacy in 1 Cor. 7:8-9, 1 Cor. 7:36-40, and 1 Tim. 5:9-12.
Again, celibacy can be a good thing but is not required. Those who cannot
control their sexual urges must get married, whether they are priests or
not. There is no obligation to remain celibate. See the next verse:
Again, no implicit obligation, but "...but to promote what is appropriate
and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord." ...again it is presented
as an IDEAL state. Since chastity is something you don't like, you look for
a convinient loophole, and the lack of a phrase SPECIFICALLY requiring it is
good enough for you.
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon
you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without
distraction. (1 Corinthians 7:35)
You see? St. Paul wrote that chastity is a desirable state, and the best
option available...
"Objection, your Honor! Nowhere in the Law does it implicity say that
celibacy is an absolute requirement for the clergy! I move that we strike
all of Mr. Betcha's previous testimony and file the entire case under
'devilish doctrines'!"
sheesh.
If Paul is unwilling to put a restraint on people to remain single, why
does
the Roman church insist on restraining its priests and nuns?
Because she wants men and women of the best character, who are best suited
for a life of undivided service to the Lord.
Meanwhile, on Patmos, St. John is granted a vision... "These are the
ones
who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves
chaste.
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been
purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb." (Rev.
14:4)
Shall we also strike the testrimony of St. John? You seem to have overlooked
it.
So, once again, we have a case of God not meaning what you think He
means.
'Doctrine of devils' indeed! It sure sounds like celibacy is the
prefered
state for those who serve the Lord. No 'devilish doctrine' here... just
the
Bible ;)
Note the reasons that the church forbids marriage, according to 1 Tim.
4:1-3.
1. The Roman church has turned away from the faith
2. The Roman church has paid attention to deceitful spirits and demonic
instructions.
3. The Roman church listens to the hypocrisy of liars with branded
consciences.
Therefore they forbid marriage. This may seem harsh but it's God's Word!
Let us read this passage...
"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from
the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by
means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a
branding iron..."
Let's assume that fundamentalist theory is correct, and the end is nigh.
That means in the grand scheme of things the 16th century until now would be
'later times'. Obviously, the 'some' who fall away from the faith are the
Protestants, for if it was the Catholics, then the passage would be wrong,
since the Catholic church is far, far older, and according to you, has never
had any faith to fall away from.
"...men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has
created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth."
To me, this part speaks of the hideous immorality of secular society, the
denial of God and the natural law, and all that is good and holy.
So I would like younger widows to marry, have children, and manage a home,
so as to give the adversary no pretext for maligning us. (1 Timothy 5:14)
Earlier, he wrote:
"But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual
desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married, thus incurring
condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge."
Here again, he is advocating chastity.
And here...
"So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well,
and he who does not give her in marriage will do better. A wife is bound as
long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be
married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. But in my opinion she is
happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of
God."
(1 Corinthians 7:38-40)
.... he still says marriage is good, but chastity is better.
Being married doesn't make a person any less "spiritual." The author of
Hebrews says that marriage is to be honored:
Let marriage be honored among all and the marriage bed be kept undefiled,
for God will judge the immoral and adulterers. (Hebrews 13:4)
Indeed. I don't think anyone takes marriage more seriously than the Catholic
Church, but it still must remain a seperate vocation from the clergy.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 01:47:11 AM |
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Also another note: These men are priests. They aren't married and under
morality and virtue of Christ, must be celibate. If they aren't celibate,
they aren't chaste according to their life station.
I am not married now, so I indeed, must be celibate until marriage or until
God's will for me is clear.
Thank you for your response, hugh. It was indeed fruitful and informative.
Peace in Him,
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 02:31:15 AM |
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You can give all reasons you have. But indeed it's clear that RCC priest &
popes is one of that 1 Tim4:1-4 is talking about. We cannot reason out of
the Bible.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 03:26:30 PM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Q_Rwd.2912$fl.1148@fe12.lga...
You can give all reasons you have. But indeed it's clear that RCC priest &
popes is one of that 1 Tim4:1-4 is talking about. We cannot reason out of
the Bible.
They are indeed not because they weren't forbidden to marry. They can give
up their clerical life at any time and choose marriage. As for food laws,
it isn't forbidden or forced onto people that they fast or abstain from meat
on those days, but suggested. The foods aren't forbidden. It is suggested
that if one chooses to fast or abstain, this is how they should go about it.
Fasting is an important part of our faith, for without fast, we would not be
able to understand our bond to Christ fully.
-RS
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 06:13:28 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq27af$388$1@news3.bu.edu:
Fasting is an important part of
our faith, for without fast, we would not be able to understand our
bond to Christ fully.
You do realize that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 08:37:22 PM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95C3A50811DA0retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq27af$388$1@news3.bu.edu:
Fasting is an important part of
our faith, for without fast, we would not be able to understand our
bond to Christ fully.
You do realize that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
--
Bush is not my President.
It is grammatically correct as far as I can tell. Oops, I am wrong. Let me
fix it:
Fasting (to fast) is an important part of our faith for (because) without
fast (noun), we would not be able to completely (fully) understand (know)
our bond with Christ (Jesus :p).
That makes perfect sense to me, although my choice and organization of words
was a little off.
-RS
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| User: "Dave Lister" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
18 Dec 2004 11:11:31 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq2phb$4fq$1@news3.bu.edu:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95C3A50811DA0retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq27af$388$1@news3.bu.edu:
Fasting is an important part of
our faith, for without fast, we would not be able to understand our
bond to Christ fully.
You do realize that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
--
Bush is not my President.
It is grammatically correct as far as I can tell. Oops, I am wrong.
Let me fix it:
Fasting (to fast) is an important part of our faith for (because)
without fast (noun), we would not be able to completely (fully)
understand (know) our bond with Christ (Jesus :p).
That makes perfect sense to me, although my choice and organization of
words was a little off.
What does your bond with Christ have to do with whether whether or not
you ate Wheaties that morning?
--
Bush is not my President.
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
19 Dec 2004 02:13:32 AM |
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"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95C3D78FDDBF1retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq2phb$4fq$1@news3.bu.edu:
"Dave Lister" <retsildivad33@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95C3A50811DA0retsildivad33hotmail@68.6.19.6...
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:cq27af$388$1@news3.bu.edu:
Fasting is an important part of
our faith, for without fast, we would not be able to understand our
bond to Christ fully.
You do realize that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
--
Bush is not my President.
It is grammatically correct as far as I can tell. Oops, I am wrong.
Let me fix it:
Fasting (to fast) is an important part of our faith for (because)
without fast (noun), we would not be able to completely (fully)
understand (know) our bond with Christ (Jesus :p).
That makes perfect sense to me, although my choice and organization of
words was a little off.
What does your bond with Christ have to do with whether whether or not
you ate Wheaties that morning?
I take it you don't fast, then. In fasting, we break our bodies to Him.
During the time we would normally be eating, we pray instead. I find that
during that time of hunger, I am able to pray more fruitfully and find true
nourishment in Him. Fasting, then, becomes a vital part of one's prayer
life and hence, spiritual life. If not looking to me for an example, look
at Christ who fasted for forty days in the desert. I only try to be more
like Christ in everything I do and I see a close connection to Him in
abandoning my physical needs for spiritual.
-RS
--
Bush is not my President.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 09:40:21 PM |
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Streamer wrote:
"But at the same time the [Second Vatican] Council did not hesitate to
confirm solemnly the ancient, sacred and providential present law of
priestly celibacy." (Vatican Council II Vol. 2, p. 290)
Are priests to marry?
Priests have always had to give the impression of being closer to their god
than to man, hence celibacy. It is all part of the attempt by man to show that
his gods exist. It's hard when they never show.
Why is there sexual immorality in a Church? Most often it is because someone
who burns with passion needs to married. Paul answers this in 1 Cor. 7:2-3
"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife,
and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife
the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
The qualifications of a priest/bishop do not forbid being married. The Greek
word for bishop is episkopos, is translated in different Bibles using the
same word elder, presbyter, bishop, priest. Titus 1:5-6 "As I instructed
you, a bishop (priest) must be irreproachable, married only once, the father
of children who are believers."
Why then they forbid them to marry?
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
"Forbidding to marry", and "commanding to abstain from meats", which God
hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know
the truth. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Doctrines of devils???
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 04:31:44 AM |
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There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
There are a number of vocations in the Church:
Vocation to marriage
Vocation to religious life
Holy Orders
Vocation to single lay life.
If God calls a man to Holy Orders, that man willingly follows, willingly
accepts a vow of celibacy, and willingly marries himself to service to God.
There is no force or forbidasion (I made that word up for simple lack of
conjugating it properly :p) involved. A man isn't forbidden from marrying.
He takes a vow of celibacy before he becomes a priest. He can marry and
still be active in the Church as God wants him to be (deacon or minister).
-RS
-RS
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| User: "Andrew W \Paranormal Agnostic" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 01:31:25 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpucip$n60$1@news3.bu.edu...
There is sexual immorality everywhere.
And Paul was celibate, was he not?
They aren't forbidden to marry. If, however, they wish to marry, they
cannot become a Roman Catholic priest.
Remaining celibate for life is impossible for a normal human. We have to
then conclude that priests are not normal.
--
Andrew W. (Paranormal Agnostic) An interest in the paranormal (spiritual)
but with acknowledgement that it's existence can neither be proved nor
disproved (agnostic).
"How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has
been for us." ~ Pope Leo X (1513-1521)
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: CELIBACY, Doctrine of devils. |
17 Dec 2004 03:53:43 PM |
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Are any of us normal? What is normal? Is there some outline for who a
normal person is? Is it Richie Cunninham? What defines this "normal"
status? What culture does this "normal human" arise from? Out of the 6.4
billion or so individuals on this world, which one defines "normal"?
Paul was celibate. Was he, then, not normal? If so, that would indicate he
was abnormal. Was he abnormal in a good way or bad way?
-RS
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