| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"martus" |
| Date: |
23 Feb 2004 07:03:32 AM |
| Object: |
Christian persecution! |
China Arrests Dozens of Prominent Christians
At least 50 detained in fresh crackdown on house churches, reportedly
promoted by new video and book releases.
By Timothy C. Morgan with David Neff in Washington, D.C. | posted
02/18/2004
China's Public Security Bureau has launched a new crackdown on
unregistered church leaders, arresting 50 or more people following the
release of a new video and book, documenting huge growth among
Christians outside the officially permitted church.
In mid-February, the China Aid Association confirmed that in January
police arrested three prominent Protestant leaders from Henan
province, including Qiao Chunling, 41, in Luoyang; Deborah Xu
Yongling, 58, in Nanyang; and Zeng Guangbo, 35, in Deng County.
Guangbo escaped two days after he was arrested, and remains in hiding.
The crackdown may last for 30 days and began during China's annual
National Religious Working Conference. This meeting brings together
top leaders of the state Religious Affairs Bureau and the
policy-making United Front Work Department. Both are charged with
oversight of religion in China.
During that meeting, communist leaders screened a new, four-hour
digital video, The Cross: Jesus in China. China Soul for Christ
Foundation of Petaluma, California, produced the series and Yuan
Zhiming, a pro-democracy leader and a Christian, wrote and directed
it.
Communist leaders were also briefed on Jesus in Beijing, a new book by
journalist David Aikman, formerly a Time magazine correspondent in
Beijing. Both the video and book document the stunning growth and
vibrancy of Christianity in China. The video has been classified as
"political matter," and Public Security Bureau officers are
confiscating CDV copies of the widely distributed series and other
Christian literature.
A source based in Hong Kong told CT that the crackdown will focus on
"the people mentioned in the video and the book" and may be as brutal
as the recent repression of Falun Gong. China's actions against Falun
Gong, a traditionalist sect that emphasizes meditation, resulted in
many arrests, imprisonments, beatings, and deaths. A New York-based
watchdog group reported that 64 Falun Gong practitioners have died
after being tortured inside China since November 2003.
"They will especially hunt those in Beijing," the source said. "It
took them by surprise that there were so many Christians in China.
Every week pastors are arrested and thrown in jail. The communists see
Christians as a threat because there are [more] Christians than Party
members."
According to experts, estimates of the total number of Christians
varies widely from 30 million to 100 million. The
government-registered Christian church (Three Self Patriotic Movement)
includes about 28 million followers. There may be as many as 80
million Christians in unregistered congregations. According to
Operation World, independent Christian congregations, mostly
evangelical and charismatic, are growing at a rate of 9 percent
annually. That's a huge growth rate since China's overall population
(1.3 billion) is growing at about 0.6 percent annually. China's
constitution guarantees freedom of religious belief but requires all
religious organizations to register with the government. The
government brands those groups that do not register as "illegal" or
"cults."
Leaders face hardships
According to another source who asked not to be named, Deborah Xu was
arrested on Saturday, January 24, in Nanyang, Henan Province. Around
11p.m. Xu was sleeping on the second floor of her niece's home. Two
police officers entered the dwelling and locked the niece's
mother-in-law in another room. The officers located Xu, handcuffed
her, and took her into custody. Police also confiscated photos and
documents.
Xu, a leading figure in China's house churches, is the sister of Peter
Xu Yongze, founder of the "born-again" movement of house churches in
China with millions of followers. In recent years, police have
arrested Deborah Xu numerous times. But on this occasion, family
members and supporters have been unable to gain any information about
where she is being held, according to CT's source. Nanyang police have
not disclosed what charges she faces.
Peter Xu left China in 2000 to seek asylum in the West. He is
currently based in the Los Angeles area and is a leader in the new
Back to Jerusalem movement. This organization aims to use 100,000
Chinese evangelists and missionaries to spread the gospel westward
from China back to the city of Jerusalem.
In early February, Christianity Today interviewed Peter Xu and another
prominent house church leader, Liu Zhenying (better known as Brother
Yun). Both were in Washington during the annual National Prayer
Breakfast. Yun currently is based in Germany.
Xu said his family has been Christian for four generations. "I'm
extremely thankful that the Lord made my sister as my spiritual
partner. She was called by the Lord when she was 17 years old and
dedicated her whole life to the Lord." His sister made that commitment
along with a decision to remain unmarried.
"She serves as a beautiful example in the front lines. Brothers and
sisters [designate] her as a mother of the church." Her role includes
training house church leaders throughout China, especially other women
evangelists.
Police in China have arrested both Peter Xu and Brother Yun many
times. At age 17 in 1975, Yun was arrested for the first time. Police
publicly beat him alongside his mother, also an active Christian. Yun
told CT, "The fire of the Holy Spirit in my heart has never ceased in
spite of this beating with my mom. Immediately after I was released
from the detention center, I started preaching again."
Xu and Yun were in the same prison in 1997. Xu said one day he
discovered his cell door unlocked, which he attributes to a miracle.
He snuck into the corridor and over to Yun's cell, which could be
unlocked from the outside, and he walked inside.
"Our eyes just met each other," Xu recalled. "And I said, 'God wants
you to go.' So I ordered him to go and then I closed the door and he
left. I started praying, Lord, protect him and let him go." Although
he was severely injured from previous beatings and torture, Yun was
able to escape.
Within minutes, prison guards had discovered the escape and began
searching. But a winter storm started, allowing Yun to flee as guards
were searching for their rain gear. "I was completely relieved," Xu
said. "I know God used the rain and the snow as Yun's shelter. God has
performed a big miracle."
As Yun fled the prison, he thought he was in a dream. He walked up to
several iron doors and they opened before him. After he fled, Yun
sought asylum in the West. He has told his life story in The Heavenly
Man, published in 2002.
Controlling Religion in China
Yun told CT that Western Christians should understand better how
China's government seeks to suppress Christianity in China. He said
China has used its laws and administrative rules to stringently
control religious expression, organizations, publishing, and training.
He said, "I won't deny there are true born-again Christians inside the
[state-regulated] church. But the head of the house church is Jesus
Christ alone."
Yun said China uses propaganda to "blur the line between the orthodox
belief and those who only obey the Communist Party's command." In
addition, Yun said China uses "international propaganda" to mislead
Westerners and promote China's policy stance toward religion. He said
China also invites top Western Christian leaders to travel inside
China to see for themselves how Christians are allowed to run churches
openly, but that doesn't provide a full picture.
House-church sources told CT that the South China Church and its
leader, Pastor Gong Shengliang, is a powerful example of what happens
when church growth happens quickly, resulting in crippling state
scrutiny.
In 2001, China convicted Gong and other South China Church leaders for
operating a cult. They were sentenced to death. After an international
outcry, Gong was tried again, but on charges of raping women members
of his church. According to reliable reports, authorities took women
in custody and tortured them until they alleged Gong had raped them.
"One sister was beaten to death," Xu told CT. China has banned Gong's
church and he is in prison.
Xu said China's leaders hope to fracture house church groups any way
they can. "They tried to isolate one house-church group, now to single
them out. By doing that, they can divide house church unity. This
purpose is very obvious, very evil. We really prayed the eyesight, the
insight, the discernment of the eagle to really clearly see this trap
of Satan."
Copyright © 2004 Christianity Today
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 12:3-17 (NRSV)
3 Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with
seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail
swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child,
so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she
gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rulea all the nations
with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God
and to his throne; 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she
has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for
one thousand two hundred sixty days.
Michael Defeats the Dragon
7 And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but they were
defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 The
great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the
Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to
the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, proclaiming,
"Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Messiah,b
for the accuser of our comradesc has been thrown down,
who accuses them day and night before our God.
11 But they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony,
for they did not cling to life even in the face of death.
12 Rejoice then, you heavens
and those who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you
with great wrath,
because he knows that his time is short!"
The Dragon Fights Again on Earth
13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth,
he pursuedd the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But
the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she
could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she
is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 Then from his
mouth the serpent poured water like a river after the woman, to sweep
her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the
woman; it opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had
poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman,
and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep
the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
End times:
http://www.geocities.com/mart1963/
.
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| User: "martus" |
|
| Title: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
24 Feb 2004 02:13:48 AM |
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Fred West linked to the occult Feb 22 2004
By Caroline Wheeler
Serial killers Fred and Rose West shocked the world with an horrific
murder spree that claimed at least 12 lives.
But as the 10th anniversary of the House of Horrors murders
approaches, evidence has emerged of a sinister new twist to their
crimes - with an expert's claims that they were devil-worshippers
whose victims were human sacrifices.
Renowned Irish author Jim Cairns says new evidence shows the pair may
have been part of a Midland black magic ring.
Mr Cairns has previously exposed a satanic sect operating in Kilkenny
which he claimed had been responsible for the disappearance of a
number of young people.
He also wrote the book Disappeared Off The Face Of The Earth about his
firsthand experiences of witches' covens in Northern Ireland.
Now he is writing a book about the Wests, which will claim that they
may have been involved in ritual killings at Gloucester's Cromwell
Street - along with others who have never been brought to trial.
Mr Cairns revealed that ALL the West's victims had finger or toe bones
missing - a common trait in occult killings known as "the magic hand".
And he revealed that the drinking counter the couple had built in
their infamous House of Horror home was named the Black Magic Bar.
Last night Mr Cairns elaborated on the latest theory to surface as to
why the Wests brutally murdered at least 12 young women.
The former electrician, who also runs a missing persons website in
Ireland, said: "Myself and others believe there is a definite occult
or satanic connection to the West murders.
"The murders reek of human sacrifice with powerful connections.
"The Wests have got all the essential ingredients of ritual killers -
their indifference to the suffering of their victims, the murder of
their own children and the burying of the bodies under their own
house.
"The fact that all of the victims had fingers and toes missing, and
that the bar they built to entertain Rose West's clients was called
the Black Magic Bar, just underlines the point."
At first it was thought that the name of the bar was a reference to
prostitute Rose's preference for having sex with black men.
But Mr Cairns thinks it refers to something more sinister.
"It can't be a coincidence," he said. "And the Wests wouldn't be the
first serial killers to have satanic connections.
"I have no doubt that the likes of Jack the Ripper and Myra Hindley
were involved in something similar. Their killing patterns and
behaviour reek of the occult, too."
In 2002 author Ivor Edwards published a book titled Jack the Ripper's
Black Magic Rituals, which explored the notorious killer's satanic
links.
Mr Cairns said he plans to write a similar book about the Wests and
claims they may even have been supplying a Gloucestershire coven with
human sacrifices.
He believes Fred committed suicide in 1995 after being threatened by
high-ranking members of the coven who feared exposure.
His brother, who was himself suspected of being involved in the
murders, also later killed himself. It is also alleged that Fred told
one journalist he was covering for others.
Mr Cairns said: "It can hardly be coincidence that Fred and his
brother both committed suicide before they had their day in open court
and a chance to tell their stories.
"My belief is that Fred was covering up for people in the coven who
did not want their story to come to light.
"In my experience, members of satanic cults often come from the
professional classes, who would do anything to protect their
reputation."
Journalist Geoffrey Wansell wrote Fred West's official biography, An
Evil Love, in 1996.
It included one passage which alluded to Rose's fascination with black
magic and the occult - an interest shared by one of her victims, nanny
Lynda Gough.
The section reads: "After her arrest the police suggested to Rosemary
West that she had become fascinated by Lynda Gough's interest in black
magic and satanism, which led them to want to torture and humiliate
their victims as part of a ritual in which other people who shared
their views participated."
A previous Government-backed report found evidence of children being
secretly reared for sacrifice by satanists in 21st century Britain.
In 2000, psychotherapist Valerie Sinason was funded by the Department
of Health to study adult survivors of alleged organised ritual abuse.
She said she was "completely convinced" that satanic abuse existed and
that children, whose births were not officially registered, were being
reared for abuse and sacrifice.
Mrs Sinason, who edited a clinical textbook on satanist abuse after
the controversies in Rochdale, the Orkneys and Nottingham in the early
1990s, has claimed to have evidence of at least 100 ritual murders.
Dr Peter Maxwell-Stuart, an academic at St Andrews University in
Scotland, is a specialist historian in the study of medieval
witchcraft and was sceptical about the new West claims.
But he did confirm that the idea of the "magic hand" was grounded in
16th century witchcraft history.
"Most of the talk about modern witchcraft and the occult is a load of
twaddle," he said.
"I think it unlikely that Fred West was a member of a coven because he
doesn't fit the bill of the modern coven member, who are usually
environmentalists.
"The magic hand does have some foundation in witchcraft history,
however. It dates back to the 16th century but it refers to the
cutting off of an entire hand - not just fingers and toes.
"But there are also reports of witches grinding down the fingers and
toes or sacrifices to make powder to use for their spells or potions.
"These are things linked to the 16th and 17th century rather than
modern day witchcraft and magic."
* In 1943 three young boys discovered the body of a murdered man in
Hagley Wood, Worcestershire, who had several fingers missing. His
digits were discovered buried some yards away from his body, and it
was believed to be a devil worship killing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans that are
ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as stem
cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
End times:
http://www.geocities.com/mart1963/
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
24 Feb 2004 11:28:34 AM |
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(martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans
that are ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as
stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian politicians
who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their gods Moloch and
Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them with various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If you
want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or Republican
politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and the
guns).
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.
.
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| User: "jw" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 02:27:26 AM |
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x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans
that are ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as
stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian politicians
who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their gods Moloch and
Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them with various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If you
want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or Republican
politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and the
guns).
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas Eve/Day,
both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged gifts, and sang
hymns and Christmas carols together.
Defending the government/nation in which we live is VERY scriptural.
RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for
there is no authority except that which God has established. The
authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has
instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then
do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to
do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the
sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also
because of conscience.
RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are
God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone
what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then
revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
jw
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
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| User: "Silver Blaze" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 09:21:25 PM |
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In article <00no30pad44r44tf6f370494cjtuhceunf@4ax.com>, jw
<john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
By your logic then the Taliban fighters imprisoned in the American Base in
Cuba are incorrectly imprisoned and should be set free.
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
This is a point at which I wish you could have met my grandmother and my
great aunt who both lost their partners in the Great War.
They'd spit in your face for what you said here, and for the loneliness
they suffered for over fifty years as a result of those who
unquestioningly serve governments and demand that others do the same
Your love of militarism and government sanctioned murder is a disgrace to
Christianity!
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas Eve/Day,
both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged gifts, and sang
hymns and Christmas carols together.
Until their commanders drew them apart for fear that peace might break out!
Your nationalism is so entwined with personal ideology that it becomes
indistinguishable from the mentality that incites genocide.
You are no Christian of a kind I have ever met
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 01:39:30 PM |
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jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:00no30pad44r44tf6f370494cjtuhceunf@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans
that are ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as
stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian
politicians who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their
gods Moloch and Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them with
various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If
you want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or
Republican politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and
the guns).
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
Since I never said it was, you are blathering. Nor do I think Christians
should shirk their duty to give military service to their LEGITIMATE
governments. But was it RIGHT for the Germans to look the other way
while Hitler rounded up Jews and Gypsies and had his minions murder them?
Was it RIGHt for people to give individual military support to that
regime?
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
Your government is a democratic republic. You don't just serve it at the
whim of some leaders, you are also a part of the governing process. That
is to say you exercise sovereignty in your own right and need to exercise
it completely. This can mean withdrawing your pleasure from those who
serve YOU.
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas Eve/Day,
both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged gifts, and sang
hymns and Christmas carols together.
That's nice, but I'm more impressed with the Christianity of Corrie Ten
Boom and of Schindler than with that of the hundreds of thousands who
gave aid to the devil's policies but who celebrated Christmas.
Defending the government/nation in which we live is VERY scriptural.
It is when it is actually defending civil order. It is NOT when it is
indulging the ambitions of a tyrant. This has been a lesson that we
continually seem to need to relearn.
RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for
there is no authority except that which God has established. The
authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has
instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then
do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to
do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the
sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also
because of conscience.
Yes...he is speaking of duly constituted civil authority, enforcing
sensible, secular laws that essentially reflect God's commandments in
legal detail. He is NOT suggesting we should help some wannabe tyrant
gang up on some other society.
RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are
God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone
what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then
revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Exactly. And that's why invading Afghanistan made sense to everyone.
You WERE attacked by a group of terrorists actively based there and
supported by that government. That's a just war by any definition. But
Iraq (though, in my opinion justified) was less well explained to the
populace, hence the resistance some people instinctively feel to it. Of
course, it may never have been necessary, if the US hadn't played games
back in the 80's....but that's history and you can only learn from it,
not change it.
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.
.
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| User: "jw" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 03:08:35 PM |
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x-no-archive:yes
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:39:30 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:00no30pad44r44tf6f370494cjtuhceunf@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans
that are ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as
stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian
politicians who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their
gods Moloch and Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them with
various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If
you want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or
Republican politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and
the guns).
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
Since I never said it was, you are blathering. Nor do I think Christians
should shirk their duty to give military service to their LEGITIMATE
governments. But was it RIGHT for the Germans to look the other way
while Hitler rounded up Jews and Gypsies and had his minions murder them?
Was it RIGHt for people to give individual military support to that
regime?
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
Your government is a democratic republic. You don't just serve it at the
whim of some leaders, you are also a part of the governing process. That
is to say you exercise sovereignty in your own right and need to exercise
it completely. This can mean withdrawing your pleasure from those who
serve YOU.
We do, genius! It's called an election. We also have a mechanism
between elections called impeachment. Enough citizens, enough
congressmen/senators get pissed of at the Prez, and we can vote to
remove him (Richard M Nixon)
Our Presidential elections are held every 4 years, theory being that
no one can COMPLETELY screw up the country in 4 years.
And Clinton and GWB BOTH exercised ANOTHER Presidential option once
elected. Canceling certain laws they don't like.
Right now, Congress is working to repeal the PBA (the law WJC signed
that allows women to kill their newborns).
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas Eve/Day,
both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged gifts, and sang
hymns and Christmas carols together.
That's nice, but I'm more impressed with the Christianity of Corrie Ten
Boom and of Schindler than with that of the hundreds of thousands who
gave aid to the devil's policies but who celebrated Christmas.
Say what you want about either side (and now I don't know whether
you're talking about US or Nazi Germany). I met Corrie Ten Boom, and
she and her family DID represent the best of Christianity.
I'd tell some of MY stories of how Christ has worked in MY life, but
you wouldn't believe me.
Defending the government/nation in which we live is VERY scriptural.
It is when it is actually defending civil order. It is NOT when it is
indulging the ambitions of a tyrant.
The Bible doesn't make that distinction. It says God put ALL
leadership into power, and God takes them out.
Who's to say who's a tyrant?
This has been a lesson that we
continually seem to need to relearn.
RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for
there is no authority except that which God has established. The
authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has
instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do
wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then
do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to
do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the
sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring
punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also
because of conscience.
Yes...he is speaking of duly constituted civil authority, enforcing
sensible, secular laws that essentially reflect God's commandments in
legal detail. He is NOT suggesting we should help some wannabe tyrant
gang up on some other society.
That is YOUR reading. And YOU don't set the rules.
AGAIN, define "tyrant."
RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are
God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone
what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then
revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Exactly. And that's why invading Afghanistan made sense to everyone.
You WERE attacked by a group of terrorists actively based there and
supported by that government. That's a just war by any definition. But
Iraq (though, in my opinion justified) was less well explained to the
populace, hence the resistance some people instinctively feel to it.
There is nothing in the Bible or in the US Constitution that says the
President MUST get EVERY American on board to go to war.
He must get Congress on board. He did.
Gee! When you tire of throwing 100 insults per post, you can make
sense sometimes!
We can even agree sometimes!
:-)
jw
Of
course, it may never have been necessary, if the US hadn't played games
back in the 80's....but that's history and you can only learn from it,
not change it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
26 Feb 2004 08:03:21 AM |
|
|
jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:la3q30tritp030vk2ubda7u8klh9dud4d5@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:39:30 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:00no30pad44r44tf6f370494cjtuhceunf@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn
humans that are ground down for their body parts for such noble
purposes as stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian
politicians who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their
gods Moloch and Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them
with various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If
you want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or
Republican politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and
the guns).
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
Since I never said it was, you are blathering. Nor do I think
Christians should shirk their duty to give military service to their
LEGITIMATE governments. But was it RIGHT for the Germans to look the
other way while Hitler rounded up Jews and Gypsies and had his minions
murder them? Was it RIGHt for people to give individual military
support to that regime?
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
Your government is a democratic republic. You don't just serve it at
the whim of some leaders, you are also a part of the governing
process. That is to say you exercise sovereignty in your own right
and need to exercise it completely. This can mean withdrawing your
pleasure from those who serve YOU.
We do, genius! It's called an election. We also have a mechanism
between elections called impeachment. Enough citizens, enough
congressmen/senators get pissed of at the Prez, and we can vote to
remove him (Richard M Nixon)
Our Presidential elections are held every 4 years, theory being that
no one can COMPLETELY screw up the country in 4 years.
And Clinton and GWB BOTH exercised ANOTHER Presidential option once
elected. Canceling certain laws they don't like.
Yeah, and most of them have sought ways to end-run the constitution,
which presidents SELDOM like (though they all swear to uphold it!).
Right now, Congress is working to repeal the PBA (the law WJC signed
that allows women to kill their newborns).
I think abortion is wrong, too. I'm not sure having fierce laws against
it will change the numbers a whole lot, though it might change the
numbers of certain other things that are happening in your society. I
notice a lot of people willing to pass draconian laws against abortion
but how many of you actually give money to help single, pregnant, poor
women give birth without a lot of social stigma and other problems--the
very things that LEAD to them wanting abortions? There are good,
Christian organizations that actually do this. You see crusading against
something is not the only way to fight it.
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas
Eve/Day, both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged
gifts, and sang hymns and Christmas carols together.
That's nice, but I'm more impressed with the Christianity of Corrie
Ten Boom and of Schindler than with that of the hundreds of thousands
who gave aid to the devil's policies but who celebrated Christmas.
Say what you want about either side (and now I don't know whether
you're talking about US or Nazi Germany). I met Corrie Ten Boom, and
she and her family DID represent the best of Christianity.
Exactly. What I am trying to get across is that we are under no
obligation to support governments that do evil and we ARE under an
obligation as citizens in a democratic society to monitor our
governments' activities and, if they do evil, withdraw our support from
that evil. Corrie and Schindler both did that, following, not some
church leader, but the TEACHINGS of Jesus Christ.
I'd tell some of MY stories of how Christ has worked in MY life, but
you wouldn't believe me.
Why shouldn't I? Certainly not because of any disbelief in Christ. It's
not Him I doubt. It's His self-appointed preachers who sometimes turn
out to not even really know Him.
Defending the government/nation in which we live is VERY scriptural.
It is when it is actually defending civil order. It is NOT when it is
indulging the ambitions of a tyrant.
The Bible doesn't make that distinction. It says God put ALL
leadership into power, and God takes them out.
Who's to say who's a tyrant?
Actually it does. The Jews did NOT comply when Nebuchadnezzar set up his
idol in the public place and demanded worship for it. Nor did the early
Christians abandon their faith because Nero had them rounded up and
executed for it (and several later Emperors followed suit). Nor did they
particularly join the Roman army in huge numbers until after Constantine
made Christianity the state religion.
This has been a lesson that we
continually seem to need to relearn.
RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities,
for there is no authority except that which God has established. The
authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God
has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on
themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but
for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one
in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For
he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid,
for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an
agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it
is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Yes...he is speaking of duly constituted civil authority, enforcing
sensible, secular laws that essentially reflect God's commandments in
legal detail. He is NOT suggesting we should help some wannabe tyrant
gang up on some other society.
That is YOUR reading. And YOU don't set the rules.
Neither do you. Julius Caesar was somewhat of a tyrant, who invented big
business in the form of arena sports and became dominant in Roman
politics, essentially usurping the power of the Senate into the executive
branch. His nephew, Octavius, made it official, becoming the first
crowned emperor. By Paul's time the empire was led by the delinquent son
of a murderess named Nero. That's the whole trouble with emperors. You
get one or two like Trajan and a whole lot like Caligula (nuttier than a
fruitcake, that piece of work) and Nero. By the time Constantine took
over in 321, the royal family's main hobby was murdering each other.
That did not change much during the rest of the century.
AGAIN, define "tyrant."
A tyrant is, effectively, anyone who rides roughshod over the rights of
others. You people are awfully loud about your OWN rights, but you never
seem to understand that many of the people you bully around never voted
for either your president or your legislators. Nor were they given an
opportunity to vote against them.
RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are
God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give
everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue,
then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Exactly. And that's why invading Afghanistan made sense to everyone.
You WERE attacked by a group of terrorists actively based there and
supported by that government. That's a just war by any definition.
But Iraq (though, in my opinion justified) was less well explained to
the populace, hence the resistance some people instinctively feel to
it.
There is nothing in the Bible or in the US Constitution that says the
President MUST get EVERY American on board to go to war.
He must get Congress on board. He did.
It doesn't matter WHO he gets on board. How he's PERCEIVED is a function
of how well he and his staff do at explaining their own motives. And
therein lies the problem. When those motives are not squeaky-clean, you
end up with moral ambiguity and a war effort that is difficult to
sustain, both politically and morally. Happened to Johnson and it can
happen to Bush.
Gee! When you tire of throwing 100 insults per post, you can make
sense sometimes!
We can even agree sometimes!
Probably. Like I said, I've never been against the idea of removing
Saddam from power. It was just done far too late, in my opinion and that
taints the whole operation. That and the fact that you held his coat
while he attacked Iran twice.
--
Dave Oldridge
ICQ 1800667
Paradoxically, most real events are highly improbable.
.
|
|
|
| User: "jw" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
27 Feb 2004 06:04:10 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive:yes
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:03:21 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:la3q30tritp030vk2ubda7u8klh9dud4d5@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:39:30 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
jw <john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:00no30pad44r44tf6f370494cjtuhceunf@4ax.com:
x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn
humans that are ground down for their body parts for such noble
purposes as stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian
politicians who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their
gods Moloch and Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them
with various pretexts.
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If
you want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or
Republican politician.
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and
the guns).
If you ever bothered to look genius, fighting wars is not unique to
Christianity. Christians, however, are required to faithfully serve
their government.
Since I never said it was, you are blathering. Nor do I think
Christians should shirk their duty to give military service to their
LEGITIMATE governments. But was it RIGHT for the Germans to look the
other way while Hitler rounded up Jews and Gypsies and had his minions
murder them? Was it RIGHt for people to give individual military
support to that regime?
If our government calls us to service, we are required by God to
respond. And if you look at history, the German soldiers in the
trenches could be heard singing hymns during WWII.
Your government is a democratic republic. You don't just serve it at
the whim of some leaders, you are also a part of the governing
process. That is to say you exercise sovereignty in your own right
and need to exercise it completely. This can mean withdrawing your
pleasure from those who serve YOU.
We do, genius! It's called an election. We also have a mechanism
between elections called impeachment. Enough citizens, enough
congressmen/senators get pissed of at the Prez, and we can vote to
remove him (Richard M Nixon)
Our Presidential elections are held every 4 years, theory being that
no one can COMPLETELY screw up the country in 4 years.
And Clinton and GWB BOTH exercised ANOTHER Presidential option once
elected. Canceling certain laws they don't like.
Yeah, and most of them have sought ways to end-run the constitution,
which presidents SELDOM like (though they all swear to uphold it!).
Right now, Congress is working to repeal the PBA (the law WJC signed
that allows women to kill their newborns).
I think abortion is wrong, too. I'm not sure having fierce laws against
it will change the numbers a whole lot, though it might change the
numbers of certain other things that are happening in your society.
One issue at a time, please.
I
notice a lot of people willing to pass draconian laws against abortion
but how many of you actually give money to help single, pregnant, poor
women give birth without a lot of social stigma and other problems--the
very things that LEAD to them wanting abortions?
I cannot speak for everyone, but all the churches with which I have
been involved have been VERY active in exactly that. In fact, if you /
I knew where to look, there are more Christian families waiting for
babies, more Christian "wanna be" parents willing to pay ALL the
expenses, than there are pregnant women wiling to carry their young to
term.
Why the shortage of babies? Abortion is too easy to get. A woman can
literally get pregnant every other month and get an abortion that
often.
There are good,
Christian organizations that actually do this.
While I cannot think of a name of such an organization at the moment
(I'm not in church at this moment), I have been to enough churches
these past 50 years to know that MY "denomination", the Southern
Baptists, and the non-denominational, put their money where their
mouths are.
You see crusading against
something is not the only way to fight it.
I agree. It needs to be a multi-pronged approach, including adoption
services, tending to the pregnant woman, and then giving quality care
to both after birth. Believe me, the Roman Catholics aren't the only
ones involved in this charity work.
There are NUMEROUS stories about how, at least one Christmas
Eve/Day, both sides left the trenches, came together, exchanged
gifts, and sang hymns and Christmas carols together.
That's nice, but I'm more impressed with the Christianity of Corrie
Ten Boom and of Schindler than with that of the hundreds of thousands
who gave aid to the devil's policies but who celebrated Christmas.
Say what you want about either side (and now I don't know whether
you're talking about US or Nazi Germany). I met Corrie Ten Boom, and
she and her family DID represent the best of Christianity.
Exactly. What I am trying to get across is that we are under no
obligation to support governments that do evil
Correct. With this stipulation. (as a Christian) Should we/I decide
that I simply cannot support the practices/laws of my nation, I am
perfectly entitled to disobey; HOWEVER ( a CRUCIAL however), if I DO
decide to be disobedient, I am then obligated as a Christian to accept
the punishment my government meets out for my breaking the law, even
if a matter of conscience.
For instance, our illustrious government, in the 50s, decided that as
harmless a drug as marijuana was /is (was used as medicine for
millennia), our government would classify it a Class B (?) narcotic
(hallucinogen). They made it illegal.
They also made mushrooms illegal. Now I know of groups who use both
for religious purposes. That's called "freedom of religion." The
government said, "forget freedom of religion", you can't use those
drugs! If the indians continue to use mushrooms, or that
"Enlightenment group" (I forget the name) continue to use pot, they
can be arrested. Fortunately, the indians got a dispensation from the
local police who decided to "look the other way."
But those folks ARE liable if they break the law, even for religious
reasons.
If I decide to not register for the draft when I turn 18 (the legal
requirement in America), I have the right to exercise my freedom to
not do so as an act of my conscience. The government also has the
right to put me in jail.
and we ARE under an
obligation as citizens in a democratic society to monitor our
governments' activities
ABSOLUTELY. NOwhere does the Bible excuse us for not being informed.
and, if they do evil, withdraw our support from
that evil.
Correct. But with a thoughtful response. And be prepared for the
consequences. When the Viet Nam war was going full blast, I knew of
men who were crossing the border into Canada and Mexico. My parents,
devout Baptists, told me if I took off to Canada (the nearest border),
I would no longer be welcome in their home.
Corrie and Schindler both did that, following, not some
church leader, but the TEACHINGS of Jesus Christ.
I'd tell some of MY stories of how Christ has worked in MY life, but
you wouldn't believe me.
Why shouldn't I? Certainly not because of any disbelief in Christ. It's
not Him I doubt. It's His self-appointed preachers who sometimes turn
out to not even really know Him.
Are you aware of the teaching of God using broken vessels? IOW, if
that 2 gallon clay pot isn't cracked or shattered and glued back
together, God can't use it.
But even all glued and cemented back together, the cracks and "faults"
and "flaws" still show.
God uses us IN SPITE of those flaws.
I, like Paul, consider myself the least of God's children. With my
mental illness and my physical illness, I make a huge mess most of the
time, but in the midst of that "debris field", God has done something
beautiful. I/you may not always see it; but the effect has been made.
I am suggesting that you not be so harsh/so quick to judge the hearts
of men; pay attention to the message, not the messenger. You seem to
be one who keeps wanting to shoot the messenger.
And I for one KNOW I have issues. I OPENLY admit that. One is anger.
I've been so beaten up these 57 years that I'm ***** at the whole
damn world, including God. But He loves me anyway. And because I'm so
messed up, when I DO produce gems, it's OBVIOUSLY Him.
But do you wonder why I continue to sit here and take all the abuse?
Because for the 100 of you who climb my back, and for the 90 of you
who NEVER have a kind word, there's that one who gets something they
needed FROM ME! And THAT is worth all the thrown rocks, all the
molotov cocktails, the lies, the UGLY insults.
And God is glorified even as I'm being flayed. And if that's the price
for my being as faithful as I know how to be, I pay that price to
serve Him the only way I know. Pedal to the floor, no looking over the
shoulder, carbs open full throttle, head down, supersonic zooming
towards that finish line.
Even a gun to my head didn't stop me from preaching 30 years ago.
How many can say they've preached the gospel with a gun to their head?
The gunman telling them, "Shut the f* up, or I'll blow your GD brains
out!"
I can!
THAT's a miracle. (and if you missed the miracle, I'm still here,
alive to tell the story)
Defending the government/nation in which we live is VERY scriptural.
It is when it is actually defending civil order. It is NOT when it is
indulging the ambitions of a tyrant.
The Bible doesn't make that distinction. It says God put ALL
leadership into power, and God takes them out.
Who's to say who's a tyrant?
Actually it does. The Jews did NOT comply when Nebuchadnezzar set up his
idol in the public place and demanded worship for it. Nor did the early
Christians abandon their faith because Nero had them rounded up and
executed for it (and several later Emperors followed suit).
Ok. You have now worked your way around to my exception. IF the
nation/government/ruler demands that a Christian do something contrary
to God's laws, THEN we may/must disobey. I didn't say that because we
hadn't gotten there yet.
Nor did they
particularly join the Roman army in huge numbers until after Constantine
made Christianity the state religion.
Correct.
This has been a lesson that we
continually seem to need to relearn.
RO 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities,
for there is no authority except that which God has established. The
authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently,
he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God
has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on
themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but
for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one
in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For
he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid,
for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an
agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it
is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of
possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Yes...he is speaking of duly constituted civil authority, enforcing
sensible, secular laws that essentially reflect God's commandments in
legal detail. He is NOT suggesting we should help some wannabe tyrant
gang up on some other society.
That is YOUR reading. And YOU don't set the rules.
Neither do you. Julius Caesar was somewhat of a tyrant, who invented big
business in the form of arena sports and became dominant in Roman
politics, essentially usurping the power of the Senate into the executive
branch. His nephew, Octavius, made it official, becoming the first
crowned emperor. By Paul's time the empire was led by the delinquent son
of a murderess named Nero. That's the whole trouble with emperors. You
get one or two like Trajan and a whole lot like Caligula (nuttier than a
fruitcake, that piece of work) and Nero. By the time Constantine took
over in 321, the royal family's main hobby was murdering each other.
That did not change much during the rest of the century.
AGAIN, define "tyrant."
A tyrant is, effectively, anyone who rides roughshod over the rights of
others. You people are awfully loud about your OWN rights, but you never
seem to understand that many of the people you bully around never voted
for either your president or your legislators.
Now you are talking about theory, but you aren't giving me specifics,
so I don't know what you mean to intelligently discuss it.
Nor were they given an
opportunity to vote against them.
If you are meaning that those who didn't vote for our President
needn't obey him, our laws don't work that way, nor does the Bible say
that, IMO.
RO 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are
God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give
everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue,
then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Exactly. And that's why invading Afghanistan made sense to everyone.
You WERE attacked by a group of terrorists actively based there and
supported by that government. That's a just war by any definition.
But Iraq (though, in my opinion justified) was less well explained to
the populace, hence the resistance some people instinctively feel to
it.
There is nothing in the Bible or in the US Constitution that says the
President MUST get EVERY American on board to go to war.
He must get Congress on board. He did.
It doesn't matter WHO he gets on board. How he's PERCEIVED is a function
of how well he and his staff do at explaining their own motives. And
therein lies the problem. When those motives are not squeaky-clean, you
end up with moral ambiguity and a war effort that is difficult to
sustain, both politically and morally. Happened to Johnson and it can
happen to Bush.
You are talking about people who believe in "peace at any price." And
I think some/you are FAR too quick to judge the merits of this war.
In fact, we HAVE found WMD. We have found remnants of bio weapons,
chem weapons, and nuclear weapons. We have also found hundreds or even
thousands of missiles capable of delivering those systems. Why we
didn't find intact weapons is partially because Saddam had a HUGE
army, PLENTY enough manpower to destroy those weapons (or hide them)
when the time came (a week before the invasion, let's say)
Gee! When you tire of throwing 100 insults per post, you can make
sense sometimes!
We can even agree sometimes!
Probably. Like I said, I've never been against the idea of removing
Saddam from power. It was just done far too late, in my opinion and that
taints the whole operation.
Blame the devout coward WJC. The President who legalized infanticide.
The President who began the disarming of America's population, the
President who admitted to treason but was never prosecuted due to a
Democrat-controlled congress. His treason? We have proof of campaign
contributions from the Red Chines. That's illegal, and it's treason.
He did it twice. And Al Gore denied going to that Chinese sponsored
fund raise until we showed him his ugly mug on the video tape. "Oh!
THAT fund raiser!" He was shown shaking hands with and accepting money
from half-a-dozen Chinese diplomats, AGAIN, TREASON.
That and the fact that you held his coat
while he attacked Iran twice.
??? I DID? You're mistaken! :-)
Frankly, politics is not my strongest suit. And I seem to recall Iran
attacking us as well. Something about them holding several hundred
Americans at our embassy hostage for 444 days, and killing several to
prove "they meant business". Were we to do NOTHING?
Also don't pile up blame on ONE President. I seem to recall 2
Presidents being involved.
Frankly, two of MY bones to pick are how we still ignore the poor.
(like me) and how we continue to abuse our "native Americans."
By the way, where r u?
jw
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
.
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|
|
|
| User: "jw" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
27 Feb 2004 06:11:30 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive:yes
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:28:34 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
marttila69@hotmail.com (martus) wrote in
news:511a49a.0402240013.68480e75@posting.google.com:
----------- Lets not forget the unnumbered millions of unborn humans
that are ground down for their body parts for such noble purposes as
stem cells.
Can their be any doubt whatsoever that the ghouls are running the
asylum.
Then there are all those people claiming to be good Christian politicians
who gleefully sacrifice other people's children to their gods Moloch and
Mammon by having their minions drop bombs on them with various pretexts.
By the way, I don't believe for one moment that you'd find one single
politician, Christian or otherwise (and not ALL American politicians
are Christians, we have several homosexuals, for instance), who would
admit to being anything other than VERY sorrowful at the loss of ANY
lives. War is ugly. And Saddam showed the willingness to kill MILLIONS
in his desire to control the entire Middle East. The Jews had
volunteered to take him out; but like they did to us in 1967, we told
them we'd handle it.
jw
You don't have to be an "occultist" to practice human sacrifice. If you
want to do it in a BIG way you need to be a US Democrat or Republican
politician.
Well, let's not forget Hitler, Saddam's 500 K (used for testing his
weapons), and Idi Amin for starters.
I take it you aren't a strong believer in self-defense. So next time
Osama or Saddam or Moammar drops a bomb that kills 20,000 of us, we
should instead shake our fists and yell loudly!
Get angry at the jerks who attack and threaten to. Last I heard, the
Arabs are still vowing to drive the Jews into the sea and take their
land. And if you hadn't noticed, the reason Camp David and the
"Roadmap to Peace" have both been stillborn is, it turns out, both
offered the Palestinians land. The Israelis even pointed to this
parcel and that.
Nothing doing! The Palestinians are demanding Jerusalem! And they'll
get Jerusalem or there will be blood!
jw
(Hint: those who would sacrifice humans always follow the money and the
guns).
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| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
24 Feb 2004 08:03:50 AM |
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But as the 10th anniversary of the House of Horrors murders
approaches, evidence has emerged of a sinister new twist to their
crimes - with an expert's claims that they were devil-worshippers
whose victims were human sacrifices.
Ain't it funny how "martus" starts his deception in the very subject of
this posting, as wicca != satanism? ;)
--
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
.
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| User: "DoWhatThouWilt32" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
24 Feb 2004 03:50:07 PM |
|
|
"Thore Schmechtig" <WRITETOcommoner@carcosa.de> wrote in message news:<c1flk7$1hsopr$2@ID-87341.news.uni-berlin.de>...
But as the 10th anniversary of the House of Horrors murders
approaches, evidence has emerged of a sinister new twist to their
crimes - with an expert's claims that they were devil-worshippers
whose victims were human sacrifices.
Ain't it funny how "martus" starts his deception in the very subject of
this posting, as wicca != satanism? ;)
This guy really will believe any old nonsense Thore, as long as it
backs up his "my god is right and all yours are wrong" stance (Martus
is most definitely guilty of No 1 below, probably guilty of the others
as well!). You know its a pity you didn't post a copy of your rules
below to Judge Moore (he of the infamous courthouse/ten commandments
debacle), Im sure he'd love to put them up in his court next time its
in session ;-)
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
Lol, man I love this list. Ive yet to come across any fundamentalist
***** that doesn't match upto at least one of the above.
.
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| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 07:22:40 AM |
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|
Hi,
Ain't it funny how "martus" starts his deception in the very subject of
this posting, as wicca != satanism? ;)
This guy really will believe any old nonsense Thore, as long as it
backs up his "my god is right and all yours are wrong" stance (Martus
is most definitely guilty of No 1 below, probably guilty of the others
as well!).
I know. I remember pretty well how last October he clamed to know that
the End will come in November. Looks like we all have missed an awful
not of interesting happenings, no?
But confronted with his nonsense, of course, the hyprocrite he is
denied to have posted that trash in the first place.
Only one example of his many ludicrous lies and "holier than thou" hate
propaganda... but to me one of the most funny. ;)
--
"Let the Gods stay where they belonged, and if they would not, clan warriors would bid against them in a battle to claim spiritual rights."
Falconer Joanna (Robert Thurston, "BattleTech: Bloodname")
Greetings from Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig, proud German Asatruar
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| User: "jw" |
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| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
24 Feb 2004 08:24:46 PM |
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|
x-no-archive:yes
On 24 Feb 2004 13:50:07 -0800,
(DoWhatThouWilt32) wrote:
"Thore Schmechtig" <WRITETOcommoner@carcosa.de> wrote in message news:<c1flk7$1hsopr$2@ID-87341.news.uni-berlin.de>...
But as the 10th anniversary of the House of Horrors murders
approaches, evidence has emerged of a sinister new twist to their
crimes - with an expert's claims that they were devil-worshippers
whose victims were human sacrifices.
Ain't it funny how "martus" starts his deception in the very subject of
this posting, as wicca != satanism? ;)
This guy really will believe any old nonsense Thore, as long as it
backs up his "my god is right and all yours are wrong" stance
You are a demonic liar. I have known probably 50 witches in my
lifetime. MOST were OPEN about their Satan worship, tho they may have
denied worshipping Satan.
Let me explain what I mean. Some denied worshipping Satan, then
admitted to worshipping Lucifer. (for those of you who didn't get
that, "Lucifer" is merely another name for Satan, his pre-"fall" name)
THEN there are those who deny they worship Satan and explain that they
worship "the horned god." If you look, there is only one "horned
god"; his name is Satan.
THEN there are those who deny they worship Satan and explain that
their god's name is Beelzebub. "Beelebub" is another name for Satan.
This "Lucifer", "the horned god", "Beelzebub" sidestep is known as
"lying" (their father, after all, IS "The Prince of Liars".) They
hope if they give you a "different name" they will fool you.
If you see the person PROMINENTLY wearing a pentagram (a 5 pointed
star in a circle), you can PRESUME this person is a Satan worshipper,
by whatever name.
For instance, if you happen to watch Ozzie Ozborne (I do not), he
loves Satan so much he gladly uses as his "nickname" "Satan". If you
look at his jewelry, last time I saw him, he was wearing several
crosses, a couple of upside down crosses (Satanic symbol), several
upside down crosses in circles (also known as a "peace" sign from the
60s, another Satanic symbol), and he even wears half-a-dozen
pentagrams. The psychotic man actually wears some dozen necklaces on
his neck. If you look at his hands, more pentagrams.
His an OPEN devil worshipper; if he' not (as some suggest) he has NO
problem with being identified as one, and even encourages it.
(Martus
is most definitely guilty of No 1 below, probably guilty of the others
as well!). You know its a pity you didn't post a copy of your rules
below to Judge Moore (he of the infamous courthouse/ten commandments
debacle), Im sure he'd love to put them up in his court next time its
in session ;-)
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
the UNWRITTEN RULES OF SATAN WORSHIPPERS
1. deny deny deny
2. say every ugly thing you can about God and Christ, while saying ony
wonderful things about wicca. Or that wicca doesn't exist, which
anyone who has seen a New Age bookstore knows is a lie.
3. Deny there is a Satan AT ALL COSTS. IF you ARE caught worshipping
Satan, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie,
deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie,
deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie,
deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie,
deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie, deny, lie,
deny,
4. Protect and defend Satan at ALL costs.
Sadly, although the Salem witch trials killed many who were innocent,
they got the whole nation to back off from ridding our nation of Satan
worshippers. Today, we see that those 50 "witches" who escaped
persecution in Salem have now spawned MILLIONS of REAL: witches.
*I* vote we start NEW witch trials. With what we know today,
witchcraft and DEvil worship would be EASY to prove.
jw
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
Lol, man I love this list. Ive yet to come across any fundamentalist
***** that doesn't match upto at least one of the above.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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.
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| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 07:30:45 AM |
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|
This guy really will believe any old nonsense Thore, as long as it
backs up his "my god is right and all yours are wrong" stance
You are a demonic liar.
See #3 below.
I have known probably 50 witches in my
lifetime. MOST were OPEN about their Satan worship, tho they may have
denied worshipping Satan.
Wow - not many fundies manage to contradict themselves in one
not-too-long sentence! Go ahead fundie Johnny, you're on your way to a
world record! ;)
Let me explain what I mean. Some denied worshipping Satan, then
admitted to worshipping Lucifer. (for those of you who didn't get
that, "Lucifer" is merely another name for Satan, his pre-"fall" name)
Ah, fundie boy arrogantly assumes that he's the only one with any
education at all. ;)
THEN there are those who deny they worship Satan and explain that they
worship "the horned god." If you look, there is only one "horned
god"; his name is Satan.
Wrong, fundie boy. The concept of the horned god is much older than the
christian defamation of his persona. Tell me, do you fundies pay your
copyright violation fees on time?
If you see the person PROMINENTLY wearing a pentagram (a 5 pointed
star in a circle), you can PRESUME this person is a Satan worshipper,
by whatever name.
Ludicrous hate propaganda. Don't babble about things you know nothing
about, fundie boy.
...several
upside down crosses in circles (also known as a "peace" sign from the
60s, another Satanic symbol)...
Thank you for again proving your ignorance. The peace sign derives from
Algiz, fundie boy.
Don't mess with educated people. ;)
His an OPEN devil worshipper; if he' not (as some suggest) he has NO
problem with being identified as one, and even encourages it.
You know, your fundie babbling (just as the nonsense your co-liars
commonly vomit all over the world) is amusing to a degree... and as you
predictably start babbling whenever you see a pentagram, why not wear
some? More fun to our lives... ;)
the UNWRITTEN RULES OF SATAN WORSHIPPERS
Whoa, what a braaaaaain! Go to sleep now, at least for three days -
perhaps this will be enough for your three active brain cells to
recover from the strain of creatitivy (instead of just parroting what
your Führer taught you).
--
UNWRITTEN RULES OF (PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALISM
1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom of religion", but whenever followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream "Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of God's personal plan for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to God himself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of God's plans for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of Gods will for
the betterment of mankind.
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as left wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything unless you purport to
forgive on behalf of other people unconnected with you for whom you don't
have that right anyhow.
.
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| User: "jw" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
25 Feb 2004 02:56:14 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive:yes
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:30:45 +0100, "Thore Schmechtig"
<WRITETOcommoner@carcosa.de> wrote:
This guy really will believe any old nonsense Thore, as long as it
backs up his "my god is right and all yours are wrong" stance
You are a demonic liar.
See #3 below.
I have known probably 50 witches in my
lifetime. MOST were OPEN about their Satan worship, tho they may have
denied worshipping Satan.
Wow - not many fundies manage to contradict themselves in one
not-too-long sentence! Go ahead fundie Johnny, you're on your way to a
world record! ;)
There was no contradiction. You perhaps need to work on basic reading
comprehension.
Let me explain what I mean. Some denied worshipping Satan, then
admitted to worshipping Lucifer. (for those of you who didn't get
that, "Lucifer" is merely another name for Satan, his pre-"fall" name)
Ah, fundie boy arrogantly assumes that he's the only one with any
education at all. ;)
Your insults are badges of honor, demoniac.
THEN there are those who deny they worship Satan and explain that they
worship "the horned god." If you look, there is only one "horned
god"; his name is Satan.
Wrong, fundie boy. The concept of the horned god is much older than the
christian defamation of his persona. Tell me, do you fundies pay your
copyright violation fees on time?
YOU obviously have NO clue what you are talking about, demon.
If you see the person PROMINENTLY wearing a pentagram (a 5 pointed
star in a circle), you can PRESUME this person is a Satan worshipper,
by whatever name.
Ludicrous hate propaganda. Don't babble about things you know nothing
about, fundie boy.
You ARE a Satan worshipper! And you are SO foolish to deny such
easily provable information.
...several
upside down crosses in circles (also known as a "peace" sign from the
60s, another Satanic symbol)...
Thank you for again proving your ignorance. The peace sign derives from
Algiz, fundie boy.
Don't mess with educated people. ;)
Prove it or be called a liar. And I would think YOU should not mess
with educated people (like me) Demoniac!
His an OPEN devil worshipper; if he' not (as some suggest) he has NO
problem with being identified as one, and even encourages it.
You know, your fundie babbling (just as the nonsense your co-liars
commonly vomit all over the world) is amusing to a degree...
Your lies and demonic mumbling are NOT funny.
and as you
predictably start babbling whenever you see a pentagram, why not wear
some? More fun to our lives... ;)
Why wear a symbol of Satan? You ARE nuts, demoniac!
the UNWRITTEN RULES OF SATAN WORSHIPPERS
Whoa, what a braaaaaain! Go to sleep now, at least for three days -
perhaps this will be enough for your three active brain cells to
recover from the strain of creatitivy (instead of just parroting what
your Führer taught you).
What fuhrer, Demon?
I worship the Christ, God in the flesh.
And NOW we ALL know who YOU worship! He has horns on his head. You
just might be him yourself! He IS the Prince of Liars, and YOU have
told a dozen WHOPPERS in here!
Sooooooooooo! The ***** Thor is also a Satan worshipper! How
interesting.
jw
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| User: "Thore Schmechtig" |
|
| Title: Re: Witchcraft's downward route to Hell. |
26 Feb 2004 08:13:04 AM |
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|
I have known probably 50 witches in my
lifetime. MOST were OPEN about their Satan worship, tho they may have
denied worshipping Satan.
Wow - not many fundies manage to contradict themselves in one
not-too-long sentence! Go ahead fundie Johnny, you're on your way to a
world record! ;)
There was no contradiction. You perhaps need to work on basic reading
comprehension.
As wicca != satanism the contradiction is painfully obvious. To every
non-fundie that is. It takes at least 5 active brain cells to see this,
which is why you don't get it.
Ah, fundie boy arrogantly assumes that he's the only one with any
education at all. ;)
Your insults are badges of honor, demoniac.
Which really means "I can't prove that my babble is true, so I have to
turn to insults".
Tough luck fundie boy. Doesn't work outside of your wonderful world of
chicken tracts.
Wrong, fundie boy. The concept of the horned god is much older than the
christian defamation of his persona. Tell me, do you fundies pay your
copyright violation fees on time?
YOU obviously have NO clue what you are talking about, demon.
Okay fundie boy, present proof for xianity being the oldest religion.
And I'm NOT interested in whatever lies you can think up. Present
verifyable stuff or get lost.
On second thought, just get lost - you don't have any proof anyway.
Ludicrous hate propaganda. Don't babble about things you know nothing
about, fundie boy.
You ARE a Satan worshipper! And you are SO foolish to deny such
easily provable information.
If it can be proven so easily, do so. Or admit by failing to do so that
you lie, as we all know you do anyway.
Thank you for again proving your ignorance. The peace sign derives from
Algiz, fundie boy.
Don't mess with educated people. ;)
Prove it or be called a liar. And I would think YOU should not mess
with educated people (like me) Demoniac!
You're lucky that I feel generous today, fundie boy.
This is the Algiz rune:
\ | /
\|/
|
|
It stands for life, or (inverted) for death. Some people interpret it
as symbol of death when it's upright (such as depicted here), and some
of them had the idea to place an upside-down Algiz in a circle as
inversion of death, thus meaning "life"... or in a general sense, peace.
And go on to try insulting me as a demoniac - it proves wonderfully
that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your babble... ;)
You know, your fundie babbling (just as the nonsense your co-liars
commonly vomit all over the world) is amusing to a degree...
Your lies and demonic mumbling are NOT funny.
If I'm lying you can prove me wrong. Go ahead. ;)
and as you
predictably start babbling whenever you see a pentagram, why not wear
some? More fun to our lives... ;)
Why wear a symbol of Satan? You ARE nuts, demoniac!
Tough luck that the pentagram is NO symbol of your nonexistent
fork-bearer, no? ;)
On the other hand, I've seen a church with an upside-down pentagram on
it. Those who built it doubtlessly thought it was a satanic symbol...
somewhat symbolic of fundyism, this church. ;)
Whoa, what a braaaaaain! Go to sleep now, at least for three days -
perhaps this will be enough for your three active brain cells to
recover from the strain of creatitivy (instead of just parroting what
your Führer taught you).
What fuhrer, Demon?
The one you call "father", "pastor", "preacher", "reverend" or
what-have-you. You know, the one who teaches you hatred in the name of
your gawd's "love".
I worship the Christ, God in the flesh.
You do *****. You routinely spit on the basic commandments of Christ.
And NOW we ALL know who YOU worship! He has horns on his head. You
just might be him yourself! He IS the Prince of Liars, and YOU have
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