"Ben Mitts" <bmitts10@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41E07483.8070806@comcast.net...

I notice you fail to post to using Scripture to back your
words!

That's because it can't. Why would I quote from something I don't believe
in?
Reason, universal unconditional compassion and common decency are what back
my words.

Care to try proving all believers believe because
they have free will to do?

The bible god wouldn't be having to tempt believers with candy and threaten
them with a spanking if it was only about free will and if there was
absolutely no selfish agenda.

You fail to believe because
you want too!

I don't believe because I don't respond to nebulous threats by nebulous
individuals.

Does this not prove you have the same
free will that all men have and have chosen to exercise
your decision to not believe!

I find it very suspicious when an invisible force makes 'belief' and 'faith'
primary requirements for getting a reward because when you believe in an
invisible force, the words of that force can be manipulated and
misinterpreted by every man and his dog, which can only lead to mayhem, and
it pretty much has. You can't govern a world like that, and a benevolent
creator would never try to, unless of course he was never benevolent in the
first place but just said he was, or he never existed in the first place but
was just a government power tool.
For a wise creator he sure does a lot of boasting about his goodness, power
and truthfulness. Strangely, humans love doing exactly that too.

Amazing how some of you people think you know what
is taught in The Bible and then proceed to make fools of
yourselves trying to interpret it for the World!

Many christians have also proven that they know little of what's taught in
the bible.

"Ben Mitts" wrote:

I notice you fail to post to using Scripture to back your
words!

That's because he is not addicted to the bible like you are.

A vomit of bible verses proves nothing.

Amazing how some ... think you know what
is taught in The Bible and then proceed to make fools of
yourselves trying to interpret it for the World!

That's what fundamentalists are unfortunately like.

Use your God-given brain rather than become addicted to the fallible
bible.

You are addicted to a fallible little black book instead of realising
freedom in Christ.

God cannot be contained in a book no matter how big or wonderful it may
be.

Time for you to grow up and leave the baby's milk of fundamentalism.

###########################################################

Stages of Faith, by James W. Fowler (published in paperback by
Harper Collins, 1995.)


Stage 1--Magical World

ages 2-6, perceives the world through lens of imagination and intuition
unrestrained by logic e.g., lives in a magical world in which anything is
possible

Stage 2--Concrete Family

ages 6-12, sees the world as a story--concrete, literal, narrative family
of
ritual and myth e.g., "In the beginning, God created the . . ."

~Stage 2 collapses when teenagers use newfound power of abstract thought
to
deconstruct previous understanding of the world e.g., risk of rejecting
religious beliefs of parents, and identifying with surrounding secular
culture


Stage 3--Faith Community *

teenager to early adulthood or beyond, sees the world through the lens of
the peer community e.g., unconsciously "catches" faith, values, and way of
thinking from peer group or subculture tends not to question the accepted
ways of thinking e.g., "if the Bible says . . . it must be true" or "if
some
group says . . . it's the Truth" difficult dealing calmly and rationally
with issues that touches on one's identity

Stage 4--Rational Constructs *

adulthood (if) traditional answers stop making sense e.g., beliefs
previously unquestioned are called into account; develops the capacity to
step back (usually for the first time) and examine beliefs with reason
universe is reconstructed with self-chosen concepts might experience deep
disappointment/anger on finding some beliefs did not stand up to
investigation

Stage 5--Numinous (Supernatural/Mysterious) Universe

mid-life or latter (if) it seems we have run up against the limits of
rational thought
e.g., the search for certainty can end in feelings of failure/despair; we
come to live in a spiritual universe of mystery, wonder, and paradox e.g.,
we might return to sacred symbol, story, tradition, liturgy, spiritual
community, but no longer captured in a theological box


Stage 6--Selfless Service **

rare stage for many; identifies deeply with all humanity, and spends
themselves in
service of worldwide issues of love, and justice e.g., Mahatma Gandhi,
Mother Theresa, etc.

________________

(*) To those in stage 3 or higher, the next stage looks like a loss of
faith, and the previous stage is repulsive. This can be seen when stage 3
engages in witch hunting, and stage 4 baits and taunts stage 3.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Os Guiness "Fit Bodies, Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals don't think and
what to do about it" ( Baker Books; Grand Rapids:1994)

p. 143

A fourth misconception concerns the idea that thinking Christianly is a
form
of uniformity - in other words, that if we all think Christianly we will
all
think the same way. Whe this happens, the goal of thinking Christianly
collapses into a frantic search for the one particular correct way of
thinking or acting. The result is he fallacy of "particularism", the
uniformity of a particular "Christianly Correct" way of thinking.
...[particularism] denies two requirements of thinking Christianly that
oppose all uniformity: the importance of diversity and the fact of human
fallibility.

p. 143 - 144

For another thing, applying the idea of uniformity is disastrous because
it
leads inevitably to legalsim and judgementalism. There is only a short
and
easy step from "This is the Christian way" to "There is only one Christian
way" to "Anything different from this Christian way is not Christian" to
"All those who differ fom my way are not Christians".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Robin Skinner & John Cleese "LIFE ...and how to survive it" - (Methuen;
London:1993)

p. 270 - 271

John: So a religious idea will be interpreted by a person in a way that
fits
in best with their existing psychology?

Robin: Yes, and it can therefore support them in functioning at the best
level they're capable of, given their limitations. ... Well, take people
functioning at the least healthy level first. They'll understand religion
as a collection of rules, of rewards and punishments, of threats and
promises, all enfoced by a powerful and frightening God.

John: The extreme black-and-white thinking found in young children?

Robin: That's exactly what it is. The thinking of such people has got
stuck at that level, and though it's normal in a very young child, it's
obviously unhealthy in an adult.
...
John: And how is God experienced?

Robin: He's seen as a terrifying, domineering, bad-temprered dictator, who
wants everyone to spend heir time admiring him and telling him how
marvellous he is. ... So naturally people holding this view feel they have
to do lots of things to keep Him sweet, so that He won't get into a bad
mood
and blast them with thunderbolts, or boils, or rivers of blood.


p. 287

John: Well, everything that you've been saying implies that
[Fundamentalism] is a manifestation of a fairly low level of mental
health,
doesn't it? For a start, Fundamentalists call for a literal
interpretation
of scripture, and as we saw when we were discussing secular values,
focusing
in on the letter of the law is a characteristic of the less healthy. In
addition, wise people tend not to exhibit literal mindedness, so it seems
singularly inappropriate to assume that this is the vein in which great
spiritual teahers are speaking. Then again, whether we're talking about
Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Hinduism, the values of Fundamentalists
seem
aimed at making themselves feel better by placing all negative and
destructive emotions in people with different beliefs, and enjoying the
golden glow of self-justification that results. ... You know that simile:
'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.' ... the Inquisition did
largely miss the point of 'Love Thy Neighbour', didn't they? Wasn't
burning
heretics 'worse' than being tolerant towards them? ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994)

p.18
One of the great services which Freud did was to draw attention to the
element of guilt and neurosis in religion.

p. 52
.. Christianity is a religion above all of freedom. Because freedom is a
prerequisite for everything else. You cannot love without freedom, you
can
only have fear. You cannot have growth without freedom, you can only have
obedience. ... There is in fact a New Puritanism on the prowl in our
society, and it has to be resisted.

#################################################



--
#################################################
My Testimony at
http://www.alt-christianlife.com/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm

***********************************************************

'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.

#################################################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians
at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
#################################################