Christmas And The Cause Of Truth



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Carl"
Date: 24 Dec 2007 08:50:23 PM
Object: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth
With Christmas day only hours away I would like to share the following
Christmas sermon by John Piper.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
CHRISTMAS AND THE CAUSE OF TRUTH
by John Piper
(John 18:37)
According to the Gospel of John, chapter 20, verse 30 and 31,
Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not
written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His
name.
The purpose of all that is written in the gospel of John is to bring people
to trust Christ as God's Son and thus give them eternal life. Therefore,
since my text this morning is taken from John's Gospel, my goal, too, is
that those here who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God might
be drawn to Jesus by the power of God the Father working through His word,
and that everyone might leave this place today loving the truth of Christ
more deeply and more assured of eternal life.
And let me preface what I have to say with a warning so as to awaken you to
the seriousness of listening to the Word of God. When Jesus spoke and no one
believed, John explains their unbelief like this (John 12:38-40):
It was that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: 'Lord,
who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been
revealed?' Therefore, they could not believe. For Isaiah again said, 'He has
blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their
eyes and perceive with their heart and turn for me to heal them.'
That is from Isaiah 53:1 and 6:10. There is another passage in Isaiah that
helps explain how God blinds the eyes and hardens the heart. It is Isaiah
64:7 where the prophet laments, "There is no one that calls upon Thy name,
that bestirs himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou has hid Thy face from
us, and has delivered us into the hands of our iniquities." Therefore, the
way God blinds and hardens is not by coming into a person's life and making
it evil, but by withdrawing from the person's life and leaving him in his
own sin. Only when we see this will we give God all the glory not only for
providing a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ
but also for effectually applying that salvation to our lives by drawing us
to Christ in faith. "No one can come to me," Jesus said, "unless the Father
who sent me draws him ... No one can come to me unless it is granted him by
my Father (John 6:44, 65).
So the warning is this: Believers, give God all the credit for drawing you
into the Kingdom of Christ, and let the truth of Christ stir you up to
greater reliance on Him; do not boast over the lost sheep as if you did not
have to be carried into the fold yourself. Unbelievers, give heed to the
Word of God and pray that God might open your eyes and soften your heart
lest you be found blind and hardened and without hope. Pray, I say, and
listen, because God has spoken these things that you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing have life in His name.
The text that laid hold on me several weeks ago for this last Sunday of
Advent is John 18:37. Here, several hours before His death, Jesus makes a
statement about His birth which I want us to ponder as we enter the last
four days of advent. The situation is that Jesus and Pontius Pilate are
together in the Roman praetorium and Pilate is trying to get Jesus to say
something that will show Him worthy of crucifixion. Verse 33: "Are you the
king of the Jews?" Jesus' answer to this question is what hooked me on this
text, but I think I will talk about it at the end of the message instead of
now. It makes a good conclusion.
Jesus says in verse 36,
'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world my
servants would fight that I might not be handed over to the Jews, but my
Kingship is not from the world.' Then Pilate said to him, 'So you are a
king?' Jesus answered, 'You say that I am a king. For this I was born and
for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone
who is of the truth hears my voice.'
This is a great Christmas text even though it comes from the end of Jesus'
life on earth, not the beginning. The uniqueness of His birth is implied;
the purpose of His birth is given; and the pre-condition of approving that
purpose is mentioned. The uniqueness of His birth is that He did not
originate at His birth. He existed before He was born in a manger: "For this
I was born and for this I have come into the world..." The purpose of His
birth was to bear witness to the truth: "For This I was born and for this I
have come into the world: to bear witness to the truth." And the
precondition of approving that purpose, that is, the thing that enables a
person to agree that Jesus testifies to the truth is that the person is "of
the truth." "Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice." Let's look at
each of these more closely now so that in seeing Christ and His purpose more
clearly we might approve of Christ's words with all our heart and mind and
soul and strength.
First then, the uniqueness of His birth. "For this I was born and for this I
have come into the world." The personhood, the character, the personality of
Jesus of Nazareth existed before the man Jesus of Nazareth was born. There
is a great mystery here. Sometimes in quiet pensive moments, I look at my
three sons and I observe their uniqueness and their personalities and then I
think of the four years Noël and I were married before we had children. And
it hits me: there was a time when these three persons never existed. Nine
years ago there was no reality to which the names Karsten, Benjamin and
Abraham Piper could correspond. To be sure, the material substance of which
their bodies are made already existed in other forms. But the personhood,
the souls that will go right on existing when their bodies decompose in the
grave -- these were not. But now they are and will be forever and ever. So
all I know to conclude is that God created the personhood, the souls of
these three boys out of nothing, just like He created the souls of Adam and
Eve. This is a great mystery.
But this is not what happened at Jesus' birth. The theological word to
describe this mystery is not creation, but incarnation. The person, not the
body, but the essential personhood of Jesus existed before He was born as a
man. His birth was not a coming into being of a new person, but a coming
into the world of an infinitely old person. Micah 5:2 puts it like this, 700
years before Jesus was born:
But you, O Bethlehem, Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of
Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
The origin of the Messiah who appears in Bethlehem is from eternity.
Therefore, the mystery of the birth of Jesus is not merely that He was born
of a virgin. That miracle was intended by God to witness to an even greater
one -- namely, that the child born at Christmas was a person who existed
"from of old, from ancient days." He was not merely born, as John 18:37
says; He came into the world. Listen to how Jesus puts it in John 8:56-59.
He says to the Jews:
'Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was
glad.' The Jews then said to Him, 'You are not fifty years old, and have you
seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before
Abraham was, I am.' So they took up stones to throw at Him...
What Christ was before Abraham, indeed before all creation, John and Paul
and the writer to the Hebrews make clear for us. John says in chapter one
verse one: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God" (and don't let any Jehovah's Witness convince you that the
proper translation is "the Word was a God." The argument that they use is
not grammatically compelling and it flies in the face of the rest of John's
witness; for example, Thomas' confession, "My Lord and my God." Almost all
scholars of antiquity, even those who think he was wrong, agree that John
meant to say, the pre-existent Christ was God.) Verse 2: "He was in the
beginning with God; all things were made through Him. And without Him was
not anything made that was made." (Christ Himself was not a creature, but
was involved in creating all that was created.) Verse 14: "And the Word
became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His
glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." Christ existed before
Abraham, indeed, before all creation because He was Himself one with the
creator God.
The apostle Paul teaches the same general truth in Philippians 2:5-8:
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who though He was in
the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but
emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of
men. And being found in human form He humbled Himself and became obedient
unto death, even the death of the cross.
Before He was born in the likeness of men, He had the form of God, He was
equal with God.
And the writer of the letter to the Hebrews, whose name we don't know, began
his letter with the same truth in different words. He said,
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom He appointed the
heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. He reflects the
glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe
by His word of power.
These passages have helped me to draw a sketch in my mind of how the Son and
the Father are one and yet different within the Trinity. I can conceive,
though it stretches me to the limit, of a Being who never had a beginning,
but has a particular character. And further yet, I can imagine that this God
has always been conscious of Himself. That is, He has always had His own
image before Him to contemplate and enjoy because of His greatness and His
moral beauty. And could it not be that this image, this form, is so clear
and so real in God that it, too, is God, the image of God, the form of God,
the Son of God? The advantage of such a picture is that it helps us see that
the Son, who is the very image and glory of God, is indeed begotten by the
Father and yet is not created. There never was a time when God the Father
did not have this perfect, real and living image of Himself. They are
co-eternal. The Son is eternally begotten, not created.
I won't push the picture any further now. Perhaps we have already crossed
over the Biblical bounds of speculation. But I feel so strongly that among
those of us who have grown up in church and who can recite the great
doctrines of our faith in our sleep and who yawn through the Apostles'
Creed -- that among us something must be done to help us once more feel the
awe, the fear, the astonishment, the wonder of the Son of God, begotten by
the Father from all eternity, reflecting all the glory of God, being the
very image of His person, through whom all things were created, upholding
the universe by the word of His power. You can read every fairy tale that
was ever written, every mystery thriller, every ghost story, and you will
never find anything so shocking, so strange, so weird and spellbinding as
the story of the incarnation of the Son of God. God, how dead we are! How
callous and unfeeling to Your glory and Your story! How often have I had to
repent and say, "God, I am sorry that the stories men have made up stir my
emotions, my awe and wonder and admiration and joy more than your own true
story." The space thrillers of our day, like Star Wars and The Empire
Strikes Back can do this great good for us: they can humble us and bring us
to repentance by showing us that we really are capable of some of the wonder
and awe and amazement that we so seldom feel when we contemplate the eternal
God and the cosmic Christ and a real living contact between them and us in
Jesus of Nazareth. When Jesus said, "For this I have come into the world,"
He said something as crazy and weird and strange and eerie as any statement
in science fiction that you have ever read.
O, how I pray for a breaking forth of the Spirit of God upon me and upon
you; for the Holy Ghost to break into my experience in a frightening way, to
wake me up to the unimaginable reality of God. One of these days lightning
is going to fill the sky from the rising of the sun to its setting and there
is going to appear in the clouds one like a son of man with His mighty
angels in flaming fire. And we will see Him as clearly as we see the IDS
building. And whether from terror or sheer excitement we will tremble and we
will wonder how, how we ever lived so long with such a domesticated,
harmless Christ. These things are spoken this morning that you might believe
that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came into the world. Really believe.
The second phrase of our text in John 18:37 gives the purpose of Christ's
birth: "For this I was born and for this I have come into the world to bear
witness to the truth." The connection between this and what we have said
'till now is that the Christ who came into the world to bear witness to the
truth is God and no one can more reliably present the truth than God. For
God is the author of all truth and wills to make it known reliably.
If there were two deities - two gods - equally powerful and opposed to each
other in conflict for the rule of the world, neither of these deities could
be counted on to reveal truth. If their goal were to rule the world and they
were threatened by each other, we might well expect that they would use
deceit to gain an advantage. And so truth would not be a priority. Not so
with the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. He is the one and only
God and there is none besides Him. He is threatened by no one. Even Satan,
His archenemy, is completely subordinate with his bounds fixed. Therefore,
God has no fault, no weakness, no finitude that He ever needs to hide by
deceit. God is so sovereign, so perfect and glorious that the truth will
always redound to His honor. Therefore, God is committed to revealing the
truth reliably because He wills to be known and glorified for who He really
is.
And how better to reveal the truth about God, that we might glorify and love
Him, than to send the Son, the very image and reflection of God, into the
world? One time Thomas said to Jesus,
'Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?' Jesus
said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the
Father but by me. If you had known me you would have known my Father;
henceforth you know Him and have seen Him.' And Philip said to Him, 'Lord,
show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I
been with you so long and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me
has seen the Father.'
Jesus is the truth because He is the image of the true God. He is the way to
the Father because as 1 John 2:23 says, "No one who denies the Son has the
Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also." You can't have the
Father if you reject the Son. If our heart does not go out in love to Jesus,
then we cannot say that we know God. And that would mean that there is no
life within us. Because Jesus says in John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that
they know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."
So there are two wonderful things implied in the statement "I have come into
the world to bear witness to the truth." One is that in revealing God, the
origin of all truth, Jesus glorified His Father. This is exactly what He
says in His prayer in John 17:4, "I glorified Thee on earth, having
accomplished the work Thou gavest me to do." The work God gave Him to do was
to testify to the truth, and in doing that God was shown to be very
glorious; sovereign in His freedom, marvelous in His power and beautiful in
His moral perfections, especially His mercy to us sinners.
The other wonderful thing implied in Christ's coming to testify to the truth
is eternal life. If, as Jesus said in John 17:3, "This is eternal life, to
know Thee, the only true God" then the purpose of Jesus to bear witness to
the truth of God must mean that His purpose is to give eternal life. Which
is what John 3:17 says: "God sent the Son into the world not to condemn the
world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
So, the purpose of Christ's coming into the world is to testify to the truth
of God so that man might glorify God for who He is and might thereby come to
have eternal life.
But not everyone hears the testimony of Christ to God. Not everyone
believes. Which brings us to the third part of our text: "Everyone who is of
the truth hears my voice." He does not mean that only a certain group of
people come within the sound of His voice. He means, among those who are
within the sound of His voice, only some hear His words as true. Only some
believe and give glory to God and gain eternal life. And this group He
describes as those who are "of the truth." What does this mean?
You recall the question Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:33 which I said I
would come back to? "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you
say this of your own accord or did others say this to you about me?" This is
a remarkable answer. What matters first in the interchange with Pilate is
not that his question be answered but that the root of his question be
exposed. Pilate, does your question about who I am come from a true hunger
in your own heart? Is there a real soul thirst in you that you are seeking
to genuinely satisfy? Are you longing for the truth and yearning in yourself
to find it? Or are you like so many others: mouthing the words that others
have put into your head? Are you just a second-hander who only knows to ask
the questions others have taught you? Do you care in yourself whether I am
King? Or are you just echoing like a hollow cave somebody else's script? Are
you an actor, or are you "of the truth"?
I think to be "of the truth" means to love the truth (2 Thessalonians
2:10,12), to hunger for it and rejoice in it (1 Corinthians 13:6), and to be
humbly surrendered to following it no matter where it leads. Jesus said in
John 7:17, "If any man's will is to do God's will, he shall know whether the
teaching is from God." The will of God is simply an expression of what is
true. Therefore, Jesus is saying: "If your will is humble enough to follow
truth you will hear and know the words of truth.
And who are these people who are open and humble enough to hear and love the
words of Christ? They are His sheep. Jesus says in John 10:26,27, "You do
not believe because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice
and I know them and they follow me." To be "of the truth" means to belong to
Christ's sheep. Or to put it still another way, Jesus says in John 8:47, "He
who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is
that you are not of God." So to be "of the truth" means to have God at work
within us enabling us to renounce our own private, proud will and to love
and come to the truth. No one comes to me, to the truth, unless it is
granted to him by the Father (John 6:65).
So, the sum of the matter is this: Jesus Christ existed before He was born -
indeed, from all eternity,as the perfect reflection of God's glory and exact
image of His nature. Therefore, He was perfectly suited to come into the
world and bear witness to the truth that we might know God, glorify Him
through faith and gain eternal life. But even though He came that we might
have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10), nevertheless,
this is the judgment, that light has come into the world and men loved
darkness (and falsehood) rather than light (and truth) because their deeds
were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to
the light lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true (he
who is "of the truth") comes to the light that it may be clearly seen that
his deeds have been wrought by God. (John 3:19-21)
O, that everyone here would prove to be "of the truth" by coming to the
light this Christmas.
.

User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 25 Dec 2007 12:00:03 AM
Carl wrote:

With Christmas day only hours away I would like to share the following
Christmas sermon by John Piper.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

---

CHRISTMAS AND THE CAUSE OF TRUTH

People who follow the god which was supposed to have created us, this world and
everything in it, need to spend a lifetime searching after 'the truth' ???!!!
[And I bet you wonder sometimes why there are atheists ? ! The shocking truth
for you fellas is - we exist, your god doesn't]
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Dave Allen
Irish comedian..........
"I'm an atheist . . . thank God."
Allen held no grudge against God, "because I don't believe in Him, but a grudge
against all the evil things that are done in His name, certainly, and a grudge
against the way they tried to get inside my head when I was child".
[Dave Allen, 1968-2005]


by John Piper

(John 18:37)

According to the Gospel of John, chapter 20, verse 30 and 31,

Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not
written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His
name.

The purpose of all that is written in the gospel of John is to bring people
to trust Christ as God's Son and thus give them eternal life. Therefore,
since my text this morning is taken from John's Gospel, my goal, too, is
that those here who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God might
be drawn to Jesus by the power of God the Father working through His word,
and that everyone might leave this place today loving the truth of Christ
more deeply and more assured of eternal life.

And let me preface what I have to say with a warning so as to awaken you to
the seriousness of listening to the Word of God. When Jesus spoke and no one
believed, John explains their unbelief like this (John 12:38-40):

It was that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: 'Lord,
who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been
revealed?' Therefore, they could not believe. For Isaiah again said, 'He has
blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their
eyes and perceive with their heart and turn for me to heal them.'

That is from Isaiah 53:1 and 6:10. There is another passage in Isaiah that
helps explain how God blinds the eyes and hardens the heart. It is Isaiah
64:7 where the prophet laments, "There is no one that calls upon Thy name,
that bestirs himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou has hid Thy face from
us, and has delivered us into the hands of our iniquities." Therefore, the
way God blinds and hardens is not by coming into a person's life and making
it evil, but by withdrawing from the person's life and leaving him in his
own sin. Only when we see this will we give God all the glory not only for
providing a way of salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ
but also for effectually applying that salvation to our lives by drawing us
to Christ in faith. "No one can come to me," Jesus said, "unless the Father
who sent me draws him ... No one can come to me unless it is granted him by
my Father (John 6:44, 65).

So the warning is this: Believers, give God all the credit for drawing you
into the Kingdom of Christ, and let the truth of Christ stir you up to
greater reliance on Him; do not boast over the lost sheep as if you did not
have to be carried into the fold yourself. Unbelievers, give heed to the
Word of God and pray that God might open your eyes and soften your heart
lest you be found blind and hardened and without hope. Pray, I say, and
listen, because God has spoken these things that you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing have life in His name.

The text that laid hold on me several weeks ago for this last Sunday of
Advent is John 18:37. Here, several hours before His death, Jesus makes a
statement about His birth which I want us to ponder as we enter the last
four days of advent. The situation is that Jesus and Pontius Pilate are
together in the Roman praetorium and Pilate is trying to get Jesus to say
something that will show Him worthy of crucifixion. Verse 33: "Are you the
king of the Jews?" Jesus' answer to this question is what hooked me on this
text, but I think I will talk about it at the end of the message instead of
now. It makes a good conclusion.

Jesus says in verse 36,

'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world my
servants would fight that I might not be handed over to the Jews, but my
Kingship is not from the world.' Then Pilate said to him, 'So you are a
king?' Jesus answered, 'You say that I am a king. For this I was born and
for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone
who is of the truth hears my voice.'

This is a great Christmas text even though it comes from the end of Jesus'
life on earth, not the beginning. The uniqueness of His birth is implied;
the purpose of His birth is given; and the pre-condition of approving that
purpose is mentioned. The uniqueness of His birth is that He did not
originate at His birth. He existed before He was born in a manger: "For this
I was born and for this I have come into the world..." The purpose of His
birth was to bear witness to the truth: "For This I was born and for this I
have come into the world: to bear witness to the truth." And the
precondition of approving that purpose, that is, the thing that enables a
person to agree that Jesus testifies to the truth is that the person is "of
the truth." "Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice." Let's look at
each of these more closely now so that in seeing Christ and His purpose more
clearly we might approve of Christ's words with all our heart and mind and
soul and strength.

First then, the uniqueness of His birth. "For this I was born and for this I
have come into the world." The personhood, the character, the personality of
Jesus of Nazareth existed before the man Jesus of Nazareth was born. There
is a great mystery here. Sometimes in quiet pensive moments, I look at my
three sons and I observe their uniqueness and their personalities and then I
think of the four years Noël and I were married before we had children. And
it hits me: there was a time when these three persons never existed. Nine
years ago there was no reality to which the names Karsten, Benjamin and
Abraham Piper could correspond. To be sure, the material substance of which
their bodies are made already existed in other forms. But the personhood,
the souls that will go right on existing when their bodies decompose in the
grave -- these were not. But now they are and will be forever and ever. So
all I know to conclude is that God created the personhood, the souls of
these three boys out of nothing, just like He created the souls of Adam and
Eve. This is a great mystery.

But this is not what happened at Jesus' birth. The theological word to
describe this mystery is not creation, but incarnation. The person, not the
body, but the essential personhood of Jesus existed before He was born as a
man. His birth was not a coming into being of a new person, but a coming
into the world of an infinitely old person. Micah 5:2 puts it like this, 700
years before Jesus was born:

But you, O Bethlehem, Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of
Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel,
whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

The origin of the Messiah who appears in Bethlehem is from eternity.
Therefore, the mystery of the birth of Jesus is not merely that He was born
of a virgin. That miracle was intended by God to witness to an even greater
one -- namely, that the child born at Christmas was a person who existed
"from of old, from ancient days." He was not merely born, as John 18:37
says; He came into the world. Listen to how Jesus puts it in John 8:56-59.
He says to the Jews:

'Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was
glad.' The Jews then said to Him, 'You are not fifty years old, and have you
seen Abraham?' Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before
Abraham was, I am.' So they took up stones to throw at Him...

What Christ was before Abraham, indeed before all creation, John and Paul
and the writer to the Hebrews make clear for us. John says in chapter one
verse one: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God" (and don't let any Jehovah's Witness convince you that the
proper translation is "the Word was a God." The argument that they use is
not grammatically compelling and it flies in the face of the rest of John's
witness; for example, Thomas' confession, "My Lord and my God." Almost all
scholars of antiquity, even those who think he was wrong, agree that John
meant to say, the pre-existent Christ was God.) Verse 2: "He was in the
beginning with God; all things were made through Him. And without Him was
not anything made that was made." (Christ Himself was not a creature, but
was involved in creating all that was created.) Verse 14: "And the Word
became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His
glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." Christ existed before
Abraham, indeed, before all creation because He was Himself one with the
creator God.

The apostle Paul teaches the same general truth in Philippians 2:5-8:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who though He was in
the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but
emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of
men. And being found in human form He humbled Himself and became obedient
unto death, even the death of the cross.

Before He was born in the likeness of men, He had the form of God, He was
equal with God.

And the writer of the letter to the Hebrews, whose name we don't know, began
his letter with the same truth in different words. He said,

In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom He appointed the
heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. He reflects the
glory of God and bears the very stamp of His nature, upholding the universe
by His word of power.

These passages have helped me to draw a sketch in my mind of how the Son and
the Father are one and yet different within the Trinity. I can conceive,
though it stretches me to the limit, of a Being who never had a beginning,
but has a particular character. And further yet, I can imagine that this God
has always been conscious of Himself. That is, He has always had His own
image before Him to contemplate and enjoy because of His greatness and His
moral beauty. And could it not be that this image, this form, is so clear
and so real in God that it, too, is God, the image of God, the form of God,
the Son of God? The advantage of such a picture is that it helps us see that
the Son, who is the very image and glory of God, is indeed begotten by the
Father and yet is not created. There never was a time when God the Father
did not have this perfect, real and living image of Himself. They are
co-eternal. The Son is eternally begotten, not created.

I won't push the picture any further now. Perhaps we have already crossed
over the Biblical bounds of speculation. But I feel so strongly that among
those of us who have grown up in church and who can recite the great
doctrines of our faith in our sleep and who yawn through the Apostles'
Creed -- that among us something must be done to help us once more feel the
awe, the fear, the astonishment, the wonder of the Son of God, begotten by
the Father from all eternity, reflecting all the glory of God, being the
very image of His person, through whom all things were created, upholding
the universe by the word of His power. You can read every fairy tale that
was ever written, every mystery thriller, every ghost story, and you will
never find anything so shocking, so strange, so weird and spellbinding as
the story of the incarnation of the Son of God. God, how dead we are! How
callous and unfeeling to Your glory and Your story! How often have I had to
repent and say, "God, I am sorry that the stories men have made up stir my
emotions, my awe and wonder and admiration and joy more than your own true
story." The space thrillers of our day, like Star Wars and The Empire
Strikes Back can do this great good for us: they can humble us and bring us
to repentance by showing us that we really are capable of some of the wonder
and awe and amazement that we so seldom feel when we contemplate the eternal
God and the cosmic Christ and a real living contact between them and us in
Jesus of Nazareth. When Jesus said, "For this I have come into the world,"
He said something as crazy and weird and strange and eerie as any statement
in science fiction that you have ever read.

O, how I pray for a breaking forth of the Spirit of God upon me and upon
you; for the Holy Ghost to break into my experience in a frightening way, to
wake me up to the unimaginable reality of God. One of these days lightning
is going to fill the sky from the rising of the sun to its setting and there
is going to appear in the clouds one like a son of man with His mighty
angels in flaming fire. And we will see Him as clearly as we see the IDS
building. And whether from terror or sheer excitement we will tremble and we
will wonder how, how we ever lived so long with such a domesticated,
harmless Christ. These things are spoken this morning that you might believe
that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came into the world. Really believe.

The second phrase of our text in John 18:37 gives the purpose of Christ's
birth: "For this I was born and for this I have come into the world to bear
witness to the truth." The connection between this and what we have said
'till now is that the Christ who came into the world to bear witness to the
truth is God and no one can more reliably present the truth than God. For
God is the author of all truth and wills to make it known reliably.

If there were two deities - two gods - equally powerful and opposed to each
other in conflict for the rule of the world, neither of these deities could
be counted on to reveal truth. If their goal were to rule the world and they
were threatened by each other, we might well expect that they would use
deceit to gain an advantage. And so truth would not be a priority. Not so
with the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. He is the one and only
God and there is none besides Him. He is threatened by no one. Even Satan,
His archenemy, is completely subordinate with his bounds fixed. Therefore,
God has no fault, no weakness, no finitude that He ever needs to hide by
deceit. God is so sovereign, so perfect and glorious that the truth will
always redound to His honor. Therefore, God is committed to revealing the
truth reliably because He wills to be known and glorified for who He really
is.

And how better to reveal the truth about God, that we might glorify and love
Him, than to send the Son, the very image and reflection of God, into the
world? One time Thomas said to Jesus,

'Lord, we don't know where you are going. How can we know the way?' Jesus
said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the
Father but by me. If you had known me you would have known my Father;
henceforth you know Him and have seen Him.' And Philip said to Him, 'Lord,
show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.' Jesus said to him, 'Have I
been with you so long and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me
has seen the Father.'

Jesus is the truth because He is the image of the true God. He is the way to
the Father because as 1 John 2:23 says, "No one who denies the Son has the
Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also." You can't have the
Father if you reject the Son. If our heart does not go out in love to Jesus,
then we cannot say that we know God. And that would mean that there is no
life within us. Because Jesus says in John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that
they know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."

So there are two wonderful things implied in the statement "I have come into
the world to bear witness to the truth." One is that in revealing God, the
origin of all truth, Jesus glorified His Father. This is exactly what He
says in His prayer in John 17:4, "I glorified Thee on earth, having
accomplished the work Thou gavest me to do." The work God gave Him to do was
to testify to the truth, and in doing that God was shown to be very
glorious; sovereign in His freedom, marvelous in His power and beautiful in
His moral perfections, especially His mercy to us sinners.

The other wonderful thing implied in Christ's coming to testify to the truth
is eternal life. If, as Jesus said in John 17:3, "This is eternal life, to
know Thee, the only true God" then the purpose of Jesus to bear witness to
the truth of God must mean that His purpose is to give eternal life. Which
is what John 3:17 says: "God sent the Son into the world not to condemn the
world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

So, the purpose of Christ's coming into the world is to testify to the truth
of God so that man might glorify God for who He is and might thereby come to
have eternal life.

But not everyone hears the testimony of Christ to God. Not everyone
believes. Which brings us to the third part of our text: "Everyone who is of
the truth hears my voice." He does not mean that only a certain group of
people come within the sound of His voice. He means, among those who are
within the sound of His voice, only some hear His words as true. Only some
believe and give glory to God and gain eternal life. And this group He
describes as those who are "of the truth." What does this mean?

You recall the question Pilate asked Jesus in John 18:33 which I said I
would come back to? "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you
say this of your own accord or did others say this to you about me?" This is
a remarkable answer. What matters first in the interchange with Pilate is
not that his question be answered but that the root of his question be
exposed. Pilate, does your question about who I am come from a true hunger
in your own heart? Is there a real soul thirst in you that you are seeking
to genuinely satisfy? Are you longing for the truth and yearning in yourself
to find it? Or are you like so many others: mouthing the words that others
have put into your head? Are you just a second-hander who only knows to ask
the questions others have taught you? Do you care in yourself whether I am
King? Or are you just echoing like a hollow cave somebody else's script? Are
you an actor, or are you "of the truth"?

I think to be "of the truth" means to love the truth (2 Thessalonians
2:10,12), to hunger for it and rejoice in it (1 Corinthians 13:6), and to be
humbly surrendered to following it no matter where it leads. Jesus said in
John 7:17, "If any man's will is to do God's will, he shall know whether the
teaching is from God." The will of God is simply an expression of what is
true. Therefore, Jesus is saying: "If your will is humble enough to follow
truth you will hear and know the words of truth.

And who are these people who are open and humble enough to hear and love the
words of Christ? They are His sheep. Jesus says in John 10:26,27, "You do
not believe because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice
and I know them and they follow me." To be "of the truth" means to belong to
Christ's sheep. Or to put it still another way, Jesus says in John 8:47, "He
who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is
that you are not of God." So to be "of the truth" means to have God at work
within us enabling us to renounce our own private, proud will and to love
and come to the truth. No one comes to me, to the truth, unless it is
granted to him by the Father (John 6:65).

So, the sum of the matter is this: Jesus Christ existed before He was born -
indeed, from all eternity,as the perfect reflection of God's glory and exact
image of His nature. Therefore, He was perfectly suited to come into the
world and bear witness to the truth that we might know God, glorify Him
through faith and gain eternal life. But even though He came that we might
have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10), nevertheless,

this is the judgment, that light has come into the world and men loved
darkness (and falsehood) rather than light (and truth) because their deeds
were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to
the light lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true (he
who is "of the truth") comes to the light that it may be clearly seen that
his deeds have been wrought by God. (John 3:19-21)

O, that everyone here would prove to be "of the truth" by coming to the
light this Christmas.

.
User: "Carl"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 25 Dec 2007 10:37:27 PM
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:47709BA3.F23854B4@netvigator.com...


People who follow the god which was supposed to have created us, this
world and
everything in it, need to spend a lifetime searching after 'the truth'
???!!!

[And I bet you wonder sometimes why there are atheists ? ! The shocking
truth
for you fellas is - we exist, your god doesn't]

Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 02 Jan 2008 03:37:01 AM
Carl wrote:

"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:47709BA3.F23854B4@netvigator.com...


People who follow the god which was supposed to have created us, this
world and
everything in it, need to spend a lifetime searching after 'the truth'
???!!!

[And I bet you wonder sometimes why there are atheists ? ! The shocking
truth
for you fellas is - we exist, your god doesn't]


Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)

Carl I guess it might be beyond your ability to comprehend,
but posting stuff written by people
who are similarly obsessed with superstition as you are
is a total waste of time and effort.
'What fools these mortals be'
[William Shakespeare]
At least we know when that was written !
Bob



May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

.

User: "rogue"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 26 Dec 2007 01:47:08 AM
On Dec 26, 8:37 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:

"bob young" <alaspect...@netvigator.com> wrote in message

news:47709BA3.F23854B4@netvigator.com...



People who follow the god which was supposed to have created us, this
world and
everything in it, need to spend a lifetime searching after 'the truth'
???!!!


[And I bet you wonder sometimes why there are atheists ? ! The shocking
truth
for you fellas is - we exist, your god doesn't]


CARL
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)

JERRY
Then you can count on going straight to hell, Carl, for lying about
needing to believe in the Trinity to be saved when the Bible says no
such thing.

CARL
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)

JERRY
Yep, we obviously don't have a clue, do we, Carl? I mean, it's
obvious we're not smart like you and claim that you have to believe
in
the Trinity to be saved, despite the fact that there isn't a single
verse in the bible that supports that claim.
And actually, you don't have to prove or disprove the existence of
God. The burden of proof of God's existence is on the theist anyway,
since they are claiming the supernatural.
What CAN be proven is the factual accuracy of the bible. If the
bible
fails to be historically accurate, it's very likely the bible isn't
true, correct? At least, on history it's not true if you can prove
it's not historically accurate.
And if the bible claims prophecies that obviously could be proven to
have not happened, then the bible would fail on prophecy, correct? I
mean, that's another obvious given.
Finally, if you can show that the different books of the bible
contradict each other when discussing the same event, that would be
pretty accurate that the bible is contradictory, correct?
Now, if the bible fails to be historically accurate, fails on
prophecy
and contradicts itself, that would also be a good indicator that
either the God of the bible didn't exist, or that he lacks the power
to protect his word, or that he doesn't really give a rat's ***** about
mankind at all, would that be a correct conclusion, Carl?
We already know from 1 Samuel 15 that the bible contradicts itself in
the same chapter, where we both see that God "repents" making Saul
king and later in the same chapter says that God never repents.
We also know from 1 Samuel 15 that God isn't omniscient, since he
repents making Saul king, and if he were really omniscient to the
level claimed, that he sees all, past, present and future and that he
knows the falling of the sparrow, he would have already known when he
made Saul king that Saul would disobey him later, therefore why
repent
when he already knew it would happen when he appointed Saul?
We know from the failure of the destruction of the island city of
Tyre
that the prophecy about the destruction of Tyre failed because the
description of the coming devastation doesn't match up to what
happened (Like, Nebs failed to take the city at all, and three
chapters later even Ezekiel admits that Nebs failed and the prophecy
didn't happen)
And, we know from the four gospel accounts of the Resurrection
Morning
that the writers couldn't even get their stories straight a little
bit
(who first saw the risen Jesus? Mary in three of the accounts and
Not
Mary in the fourth - do your own research Carl. I have.).
So, those facts about the bible, from the text, indicates that the
bible isn't true. Therefore, either the god of the bible doesn't
exist, or he doesn't have the power to protect his word (or,
considering Tyre, to make his prophecies come true) or the book is
just mankind dithering about gods or godlike beings that don't really
care about mankind at all, if they even existed. Of course, they
*could* have been aliens from other worlds. That's just as likely as
the claim that they were gods, right Carl? ;-)
And, all of this is available to any person who bothers to read the
bible instead of reading the writings of other believers and
accepting
their stories hook, line and sinker, then copying and pasting them
into newsgroups to share the ignorance, right Carl?
So, the bible says that those who say "there is no god" are fools,
but
that's the same bible that can be *proven* NOT to be the word of any
God, Carl. Therefore, since its just the rantings of incompetent,
superstitious shepherds from 2000 years ago, who cares what they say,
right Carl? ;-)

CARL
All of those so-called contradictions have long since been explained.
Mostly it's due to lack of scriptural understanding or willful ignorance.

JERRY
On who's part? The apologetics I have read indicate that it's the
theist who is making up simplistic explanations that don't fit the
situation (Like McDowall's claims about Tyre, for example). I can
easily shred the explanations of nearly all the apologists I have read
(including the CARM site that Bible John was so enamored with and JP
Holding's (AKA Robert Turkel, who is not a scholar but a prison
librarian and who fancies himself the Rush Limbaugh of the Apologetic
set).
In fact, with very little research on the web you can see where
Farrell Till destroys Turkel in a debate on Yahweh's Failed Land
Promise.

CARL
I suggest Christians read the following books which have
answered all of those false contradictions and more:
Hard Sayings of the Bible by Walter C. Kaiser (Editor), Peter H.
Davids (Contributor), F. F. Bruce (Contributor)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason Archer

JERRY
I don't really have access to books here in Afghanistan, but I've read
some of Gleason Archer's work several years ago and was less than
impressed with him.

Those two are excellent.
Others worth reading and studying:
Difficulties in the Bible by R. A. Torrey
1001 Bible Questions Answered by William L. Pettingill, R. A. Torrey
The Complete Book of Bible Answers by Ron Rhodes
When Critics Ask by Norman Geisler
Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson
Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible by John W. Haley

JERRY
I saw the video clips of Farrell Till trashing Geisler and I have to
say, he's less than impressive as well.

Also some websites that answer many of them and addresses why critics
and skeptics keep bringing the same old tired ones up again even
though they've been answered:
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm

JERRY
This one only goes to Deuteronomy. Not helpful in the 1 Samuel 15
contradiction. And I have to say, your use of the CARM site, which I
analyzed for Bible John, really doesn't help you much. The man is
intellectually dishonest with his writings and easily refuted. Here
is a quick example of what he writes regarding the contradictory
Creation accounts in Genesis 1 & 2:
" * Genesis 1
- Day one - heavens and earth are created. "Let there be
light." Day and Night.
- Day two - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
- Day three - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is
made.
- Day four - Sun, moon, stars are made.
- Day five - Sea life and birds are made.
- Day six - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and
female) are made.
* Genesis 2
States heaven and earth were created. no plant yet on earth, no
rain yet, no man. but, a mist rose watering the surface of the
ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life. Then God made Eve.
There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is
a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day.
Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth
day, the day that Adam and Eve were made. The recap is stated in Gen.
2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were
created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then,
Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in
verses 7 thru 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
JERRY
What Glenn didn't notice or was intellectually dishonest enough to
intentionally leave out, is that the contradiction is on the *order*
of
creation. In Genesis 1, we see that the whales and all the creatures
of the seas were created on the 5th day, as well as all of the fowl of
the air. Man was created later, on the sixth day.
In Genesis 2, Man was created and THEN all the beasts of the field and
the fowl of the air. Problem was, we saw in the first chapter that
all the fowl of the air were already created BEFORE man was created.
In fact, Glenn's statement: "Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
If they didn't need to be mentioned until after After was created, why
were they mentioned first in the first chapter? Glenn's statement is
actually supportive of the theory that chapter 1 and chapter 2 were
written by two different authors and put together after the fact,
though I'm sure he didn't intend it that way.

CARL
http://www.carm.org/diff/Bible_contradictions.htm

This one doesn't address anything in particular but has this
interesting statement:
"The Originals are Inspired, not the copies."
How does he know? There ARE no originals. Only copies of copies of
copies and the copies show us that the bible has changed over the
years. We can also tell by studying the bible, Carl, that the bible
contains contradictions (showing it's neither reflective of God's
perfection, nor is it protected by God), that it's historically
inaccurate and that it contains failed prophecies.

CARL
http://www.tektonics.org/

JERRY
Turkel, as I mentioned earlier, is a joke. He fancies himself like
Limbaugh and spends his time in a debate attacking and making fun of
his opponent and not addressing the points made. Instead he will
throw out a statement that he can't support and go on with the
attacks. It's the reason he does so little debating, as a
knowledgeable opponent shows that he's unable to address the issues
under debate. He prefers a closed studio, much like his hero, and
wants to screen calls. He "debates" someone by taking their published
work, making fun of it and not giving a chance to the author to rebut
what Turkel has stated. Only the non-discerning reader takes him
seriously. (watching Till kick his ***** around the internet, and
Turkel's growing sputters of outrage were priceless.)

CARL
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/

Doesn't address contradictions/failed prophecies/historical
inaccuracies of the bible except in a very general "the bible is
always right" manner.
In fact, there are a number of better apologetics sites out there.
Heck, even Turkel's very poor attempts are better than christian-
thinktank.
.



User: "Bible Bob"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 24 Dec 2007 11:46:15 PM
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:50:23 -0500, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:

With Christmas day only hours away I would like to share the following
Christmas sermon by John Piper.

May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/

Carl,
Why do you continue to promote false doctrines?
John the Baptist's father was of the course of Abia. Converting from
the Jewish calandar to ours; John was conceived in June of 4 BC. Mary
conceived in December of the same year (six months after Elizabeth
conceived). Jesus was born in September 3 BC. Mary did not carry
Jesus in her for 12 months. A normal pregancy lasts only nine months.
December 25th is a pagan holiday; the Winter Solstace. By the way,
isn't Christ mass the RCC celebration of the death of Jesus Christ?
Luk 1:5 KJV
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest
named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the
daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
The Greek-based word “Abia” is the same as the Hebrew-based word
“Abijah.” It is the eighth order (class) (1 Chron 24:10). The Hebrew
month Sivan corresponds to our May or June depending on the year. In
4BC the class of Abijah served in June. Thus, John the Baptist was
conceived in June six months before Mary became pregnant. Counting
nine months from June, John was born in our March. Jesus would be
born six months later in September.
Luk 1:26-27 KJV
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a
city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house
of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
No, the sixth month was not our June. The six month refers to the six
month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. Nor was it the six month of the
Hebrew calendar which would be Elul (August or September). You can't
get December nine months from September. You can get nine months from
December to September.
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
Nothing so completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity
himself, than straightforward and simple integrity in another.
Charles Caleb Colton, author and clergyman (1780-1832)
.
User: "A John 3:16 Whosoever"

Title: Re: Christmas And The Cause Of Truth 25 Dec 2007 10:54:54 PM
On Dec 24, 9:46 pm, Bible Bob <bible...@saintly.com> wrote:

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:50:23 -0500, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com>
wrote:

With Christmas day only hours away I would like to share the following
Christmas sermon by John Piper.


May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/


Carl,

Why do you continue to promote false doctrines?

John the Baptist's father was of the course of Abia. Converting from
the Jewish calandar to ours; John was conceived in June of 4 BC. Mary
conceived in December of the same year (six months after Elizabeth
conceived). Jesus was born in September 3 BC. Mary did not carry
Jesus in her for 12 months. A normal pregancy lasts only nine months.
December 25th is a pagan holiday; the Winter Solstace. By the way,
isn't Christ mass the RCC celebration of the death of Jesus Christ?

Luk 1:5 KJV
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest
named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the
daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

The Greek-based word "Abia" is the same as the Hebrew-based word
"Abijah." It is the eighth order (class) (1 Chron 24:10). The Hebrew
month Sivan corresponds to our May or June depending on the year. In
4BC the class of Abijah served in June. Thus, John the Baptist was
conceived in June six months before Mary became pregnant. Counting
nine months from June, John was born in our March. Jesus would be
born six months later in September.

Luk 1:26-27 KJV
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a
city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house
of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

No, the sixth month was not our June. The six month refers to the six
month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. Nor was it the six month of the
Hebrew calendar which would be Elul (August or September). You can't
get December nine months from September. You can get nine months from
December to September.

Once again, "Bible" Bob shows he is no student of the Bible at all,
rather, he shows his ignorance as how he disguises it as knowledge.
Since those living in Jesus' time used the Jewish calendar, it is
impossible for the dates/months "Bible" Bob is referencing to be
correct in regard to the births of both Jesus and John the Baptist.
John the Baptist was born in the month of Nisan, possibly on the 15th
day. The 15th of Nisan does not necessarily correspond with the
month
of March (as "Bible" Bob claims), since it changes year to year. Jesus
was born six months later, in the month of Tishri, possibly on the
15th day. The 15th of Tishri does not necessarily correspond with the
month of September (as "Bible" Bob claims), since it changes year to
year.
Both dates are significant apart from the births of John and Jesus;
each being the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Festival of
Tabernacles, respectively.
Once again, "Bible" Bob shows himself to not be a student of the
Bible, but a student of the gospel according to "Bible" Bob.
*NOTE* In a follow-up post to the above, "Bible" Bob tries to further
muddy the waters of his faulty theories and false theology with the
following:
"Once again you error.
First of all I said the Hebrew month of Sivan corresponded to our May-
June. It is not impossible for the dates I refenced to be correct;
because they are correct. Aren't you the one that pretends to be a
Messianic Jew? Then maybe this "Judaism 101" website will help you.
http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm
Notice that the chart says that Sivan occurs in May-June as I said.
Here's a website where you can convert dates,
http://www.hebcal.com/
So, it is not impossible . I didn't say anything about the month of
Tishri. I said September; not Tishri. Why did you imply that I did?
Silly woman laden with sin led about by diverse lusts; couldn't you
control yourself long enough to make it through Christmas without
sinning.
Elizabeth became pregant in the month of Sivan which corresponds to
our June. Add nine months to June and you get March. Add six months
to March and you get September."
Of course, there is no "sinning" in pointing out fact in opposition to
"Bible" Bob's faulty theories and false theology. Because of "Bible"
Bob's insistance on promoting his lies, I followed up with the
following:
And here we see that "Bible" Bob continues to make his own rules about
the times, cultures, and customs of Jesus and His fellow Jews who
lived during His time. Not only that, but "Bible" Bob implies that
the Hebrew calendar is no longer in use. Ask an observant, or even a
non-observant Jew what the date *real* date is today, and they will
likely give you an answer that corresponds with the Hebrew calendar,
still in use today - not in the past (as "Bible" Bob would have you
believe).
To say that our calendar months and days correspond to Jewish
holidays, feasts, festivals, and other dates is not only stubbornly
stupid, it's unbelievably bad Biblical scholarship. Even after being
shown that his dates/months applied to Jesus' and John's births and
conceptions are not possible (because the Hebrew calendar changes
continually), "Bible" Bob stubbornly sticks to his faulty theories.
To state that the Hebrew month of Sivan is still equal to the month of
June is not just poor scholarship, it is blindly stupid. "Bible" Bob
continues his poor scholarship when he states "Elizabeth became
pregant (sic) in the month of Sivan which corresponds to our June."
Immediately following this, "Bible" Bob then continues in his
stupidity by saying "Add nine months to June and you get March. Add
six months to March and you get September." The math isn't wrong, but
to continuing to use modern calendar months to find the birth of Jesus
is very wrong: Add six months to the 15th of Sivan and you get the
15th of Tishri, not "September". As any Jewish person who knows the
Hebrew calendar will tell you, our modern calendar days and months do
not correspond directly to specific months and days in the Hebrew
calendar. Because I have pointed this out to "Bible" Bob, he is no
longer ignorant of these facts, but now he just chooses to ignore the
facts surrounding the Hebrew calendar and Jesus' birth date.
"Bible" Bob is no scholar (Biblical or otherwise), but he *is* a
proven Usenet liar and fraud. Considering his stubbornness regarding
the use of the Hebrew calendar to find Jesus' birth date, he may even
be anti-Semitic. Some of his Usenet posts in the past certainly
indicate this possibility.
.



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