Consulting the dead.

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Streamer"
Date:	14 Dec 2004 08:43:09 PM
Object:	Consulting the dead.

The Bible condemns necromancy (consulting the dead).
Prayers to "saints" who have died are sinful.
-----------------------
Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in
the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of
spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the
dead. (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)
-----------------------
When Jesus' disciples asked him how they were to pray, Jesus didn't tell
them to consult dead "saints." He told them to pray directly to God, their
Father (Luke 11:1-4).
.

User: "walksalone"
Title: jw was Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 06:23:15 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:35:05 -0800, j w elected to see how many fallacy's
he could invoke in one message. Mind you, he is supposed to be a trained
journalist, from Pepperdine. Just ask him.
Follow ups set to trolls midden heap, you can find it there.

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From: j w <"j_w<no">
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Subject: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:35:05 -0800
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:33:41 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)

RS, recommend you look up responses to jw on google, or google posts titled
either 2004 or starting with jw was. You may save yourself a lot of wasted
time.
Feel free to look up me as well, don't run under the yellow ensign.

"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:b462s0dgn68j1m9ikpqcj5t3cei7762h2c@4ax.com...

We know they did not DEFY the commands of Christ. Who wrote the Bible
if not the apostles?

What of when Paul rebuked Peter for acting improperly towards Gentiles?
Seems to me that they defied the commands of Christ in that matter.

Is it recorded? Yes. So we know that it happened, WHAT happened, and
WHY. And it is NOT an extra-Biblical teaching, which is what I was
referring to.

Is is it recorded, & if so whee, are the witnesses reliable, are there at
least three of them & can the recording be confirmed? Apparently you have
forgotten to use your *journalistic* skills here. If you ever had any.
But the fallacy is one of the usual type you liker to invoke:
An appeal to your ignorance, & that of those that have not studied the era
& region involved.
An appeal to unfounded authority
A circular argument as well as question begging.
Nothing new for you.

Jesus did NOT say, "pray, "Our Father..." and then John or James or
Paul said, "or you could pray to Moses..."

To have said anything would require it existed. Something neither history
nor the parent myth say or imply.
Which fallacy would that be, the one where you assume your conclusions?
Or is your assumption that if it is good enough for you, it is good enough
for everyone else?

When Jesus said, repent and be baptized, Paul did NOT come after and
say, "or be baptized FIRST, as an infant, and then when you get ready,
believe."

Fallacy of the Red herring & strawman.
The red herring being the attempt to draw attention to what Saul did not
do, the strawman pretending that Saul would overide JC. In fact, there is
no reason to believe either of them existed as claimed.
As a side note, Saul did overide the claimed messiah of the xian myth,
something about the lad being for the Jews only comes to mind.
Of course, figments of the imagination are allowed to not know what they
want, how can they?

The teachings of the apostles AMPLIFY what Jesus taught. They do NOT

Not really, the claims made for the apostles amplify what someone claimed
was said by the invisible non-historical lad.

CONTRADICT Him. Yet Rome contradicts Jesus and Yhwh almost with every
turn of the page.

& you are just the person to never prove it, but assert it. Nothing new
there.
The strawman argument is one of your favorites, as well as anything that
does not require the reader to consider your false claims.

I have said several times, Jesus gave us the OUTLINE, since He only

You've said many things, & maybe one% of them are true, maybe less.
Spoken to any Gulf war Medal of Honor winners lately Liar John?

had 3 years. Paul and the other apostles, who had their entire

He had zero years, something to do with existence again.

lifetimes, AMPLIFIED, and FILLED IN the outline given by Christ.

What christ, the High Priest, the Mayor of Jerusalem. Certainly not anyone
that had their feet dosed with nad.
Jewish custom required the oil of anointment, which supposedly Yahweh would
know for it was supposedly his requirement.
Don't you know anything about your myth, or its history?

What the RCC has done, with YOUR CONSENT, is to trash the entire Bible
and write all new rules, taking God's power, and putting it in Rome.

Not really, they do have a narrow view of it, but they are not the only
Catholic church.
Your strawman, need any matches?

Heresy!

You are good at it I'll give you that. Pretending to know what your god
means in spite of the requirements laid out by Yahweh. Talk about gall.

Remember that Paul didn't know Jesus Christ during his mission.

Correct. Paul met the risen Christ on his way to Damascus. What's your
point?

No, he did not, again, the base requirement is yet to be shown.
You have an unsupported claim by a possibly fictitious person about another
fictional persona, & you call it history.
Did you ever bother to study in those seminary's? or did you just kiss *****?

Everything

Paul knew was taught to him by the disciples or through visions,

What is wrong with the concept of Paul being taught DIRECTLY BY THE
HOLY SPIRIT? Which is the claim Paul makes!

That Saul, like you, was a known liar suffices for most thinking people.

and a

certain number of the Pauline letters cannot be verified as being witten by
Paul.

How convenient! I have NEVER heard from any conservative scholar that
there is ANY question about who wrote 63 of the 66 books.

That's all right, you have yet to establish that you know any scholars that
accepted by the academic world, so what you know is not to be counted on
when you make your claims.

We still do not know the author of Mark, Luke, Matthew,

Says whom? Rome?

Says history & your grimorie. But then, reading for content & in context
are not things you are known for.

and it is

even under descretion whether John was most suredly John the beloved
disciple.

In such a case, the content is as important as the author. We also
don't know the author of Hebrews, but the teachings of Hebrews are

You don't, de facto, know any author of any new testament boo. There are
assumptions made, that do not fare well by the light of scholarly
examination & comparison.
What is it now, at least five of the so called Pauline epistles are now
known to be false, or is that only five were written by someone called
Saul?

considered so VITAL to the Bible that it would have suffered had it
not been included.

So vital, that no author is claimed for them, & no author accepts
responsibility.

Sometimes/ too often, you merely spew what Rome has mistaught you.
You never seem to stop and consider that your rationalizing your sins
does NOT justify that the Bible says "X" and you instead decide "Y,"
and give 5 excuses.

On the contary, most of what I placed forth in the chain of discussions
above were free from justification from apologetic websites.

I didn't mention any "apologetic websites." Some of you RCs are so
brainwashed, you have MEMORIZED the heresies perfectly. One GOOD case
in point is SL. Several who have quit posting or changed names are
VERY good with Roman Catholicism, but ***** puking poor when it comes
to basic Christianity and the Bible.

You just described yourself. Your hatred of decent people of other sects, &
the RCC in particular shows with regularity.
You can't even tell the audience why your shake & bake messiah should be
considered real, in accordance with the Jewish theology [the OT for
starters] & custom.
You can't even do that, yet you pretend to know what you are talking about.
Hell, you can't even point out when the parent myth was officially &
privately monotheistic, yet the information is there for anyone that can
read in context & pay attention.
But then, there is that word again, context.

The vast

majority of it was discovered and clarified through my own religious studies
in university, with the guidance of many credible religious and historical
scholars.

Roman Catholic all.

Apparently they were qualified, which is more than your claimed skills have
demonstrated.

Several of the apostles recorded that Jesus taught us to pray. So how
come you ignore His instructions? There are passages you follow to
the HILT.

Remember that the apostles asked Jesus how they should pray, and Jesus
taught them. When Jesus was teaching them how to pray, he wasn't talking to
me or to you. He was talking to the apostles who asked him.

Oh, PLEASE! You can ALWAYS find an excuse. How about 4 more, now.

You are famous for it, & your excuses always rely on the ignorance of
others about your myth & claims.

Jesus taught us to pray. We are given 2 examples that I can think of.
If they were ONLY for the disciples who were there, they wouldn't have
needed recording. Besides, what is "cultural" about the Lord's Prayer
that would make it ineffective today?

You saying it? Take it from a prayer to a curse if the claims for the
missing lad are right jezebeth.

Your "apologetics" is SO shallow, it's like popping balloons with a
pin. You tell me that those prayers were given to the apostles ALONE.
So why do YOU use them?

Same reason you abuse the xian myth? Same reason that dogma forms &
continues? Same habitual sense of peace from repeating the known?

Jesus gave an

example of how to pray to the heavenly father.

Show me the word "example" in the passage. What He SAID was, "When YOU
pray, say, Our Father..."

No one can show you anything jw, you can not read for content or context,
only for your limited limpid self serving use.

In that example, he didn't

say "this is exactly how you should pray and only how you should pray."

That is EXACTLY what He said.

You telling god what he said now? You best hope he doesn't exist jw, that's
a big no no. It will be more than a slap on your pee-pee [presuming you
have standard male plumbing] for you.

He said that, everyone would be reciting the Lord's prayer and only the
Lord's prayer (which we don't).

Oh, give me a break! You have never let the Bible or Jesus stop you
from doing as you damn well please.

No,you have not done that jw. In fact, one could say one of your trademarks
is using verses to condone your sorry example of xianity.

And I'm about to puke again.

Use your own pocket, that way you will not notice the smell as you are used
to it & won't see it.

snipped to puke

Like a dog to its vomit, but the dog returns to its vomit for a reason.
Supposedly your gods made it that way.
walkslaone who notes that jw is trying to make up for lost time in the
number & lack of quality of its posts.
--
The Hadith Qudsi 6
The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of
Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah
will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them.
The Almighty will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I
fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied - you did
but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was
said.
Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast
into Hell-fire.
.

User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 12:05:29 PM

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:33:11 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> spoke the
following words of wisdom:

In the

teachings of the Catholic Church, however, prayer (just as worship)

different than the modern definition.

To pray to is to petition to or to give to.

In your sense of the term, I do not pray to saints.

I merely ask saints to pray for me (see my post above that says

"please

read".

As for my own personal style, I do agree that I have my own personal

way to

prayer, my way of approaching God that is inspired by the Holy Spirit

but

unique to me. The way I pray to Him is different than the way you

pray to

Him. It has to be, we are different people. Don't assume, however,

that

because I petition to saints that I do not go to Jesus. In fact,

100% of my

petitions I bring to God. About 5% of them I ask people (whether the

saints

in heaven or my friends around me) to pray for as well for me. I ask

them

to intercede for me, to take my petitions as their own. That, I

feel, not

only strengthens my bond with that person, but helps me to humble

myself.

It takes humility and trust to go to someone with a problem and to

ask them

to pray for you, especially someone who is already in Heaven with our

Lord.

I am not afraid to pray directly to God, that is how I pray. The

thing that

is different about our faith is that you feel those who have passed

before us are dead. I see them as perfectly well and alive, more

alive than

I am right now at least :p. In all things, however, I follow the

desires of

God. I have done things that are wrong in the past and God has let

me know.

There has never been a doubt in my mind, however, that the way I pray

to God

and the way I dedicate myself to the teachings of the Church is

wrong. I

know it is right because no Church doctrine has ever led me further

away

from God. Church doctrine and creed has only helped me to become one

with

Him as well as to unite with the whole Church (in heaven and in

earth) in

glorious worship of our Heavenly Father.

Join with me then, brother, and set aside our differences in faith

for the

betterment of the kingdom and glory of God.
:D

-RS

Good afternoon, Rob.
Thank for your explanation of how you pray, and how you see your
religion.
While we do indeed have differences, I still hold nothing against you
personally, and trust it is likewise with you :O)
I never have held anything against you personally, and I am sorry if
you have been offended by my stand against some of the teachings of
the Roman Catholic denominaiton.
I am content to leave this topic now, as I said what needed to be
said, and I am also pleased to count you among my friends as well. I
have many Catholic friends, despite our diffs... we just don't bring
religion into our topics of discussion!! :o)
BTW, I am a she, not a he........
take care, thank you again, and may God bless you and yours, Rob.
elaine
--
The official Usenet GHOST....
haunting romanists EVERYWHERE!
BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! BOO!
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 02:53:40 PM

Good afternoon, Rob.
Thank for your explanation of how you pray, and how you see your
religion.

Good afternoon Elaine.

While we do indeed have differences, I still hold nothing against you
personally, and trust it is likewise with you :O)

I would never hold anything against a brother or sister in Christ, which you
indeed are.

I never have held anything against you personally, and I am sorry if
you have been offended by my stand against some of the teachings of
the Roman Catholic denominaiton.

It takes much to offend me. You haven't offended me in any way. I
understand your stand against some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic
Church. There are still teachings that are unfamiliar to me (those that I
face for the first time as I become more active in in participating in
mass). For instance, until a year and a half ago, I had never heard of
Eucharistic Adoration. Now, however, it is a fundamental part of my faith
which fundamentalists do not understand.
We have our differences but despite those, we share common ground in Jesus
Christ. We will all make mistakes. JW is making a huge mistake now in
judging my faith and pushing me away. I am making a mistake, as well, in
being on this newsgroup instead of studying for my final exam on Monday :p
Mistakes will be forgiven, as long as we unite together as one people under
God.

I am content to leave this topic now, as I said what needed to be
said, and I am also pleased to count you among my friends as well. I
have many Catholic friends, despite our diffs... we just don't bring
religion into our topics of discussion!! :o)

I find that bringing religion into discussion can be a good thing, if done
slowly and repesctfully. Once someone begins to judge the other persons'
faith however (as in the content of their heart) that is when it gets
overboard :p
You have a good afternoon, Elaine.
Peace in Him,
-Rob
.

User: "j w"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	15 Dec 2004 11:07:59 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:33:11 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)

I am far too tired to carry this on now. I actually should have been
studying for final exams :0

Anyhow, to clarify:

You claim I pray to the dead. In your sense of the term, prayer is
something between you and God and no one else. That is admirable. In the
teachings of the Catholic Church, however, prayer (just as worship) is
different than the modern definition.

To pray to is to petition to or to give to.

In your sense of the term, I do not pray to saints.

If you are not praying to long-departed "saints", how do you
"communicate" with them?

I merely ask saints to pray for me (see my post above that says "please
read".

That is called "prayer" if they are no long among the living on
terra-firma.
What you are saying is that if we aren't praying to God in heaven,
then "speaking with" souls that are no longer among the flesh is not
called "praying."
Where in the Bible do you get that definition?
It's one thing to be studying for that final and asking your parents,
your siblings, your mate, your children, and your buddies on the
football team to pray that you Ace it.
It's something else entirely to "communicate" with people you have
never known.
AGAIN, you permit the RCC to REDEFINE Christianity to be something
OTHER than what the apostles/Christ taught.
And when Jesus said "It is finished", one thing He DID mean was that
the gospel had been defined. Period.
Atonement is through no other source than Christ.
You still have not explained why you NEED to pray to anyone in heaven
OTHER than God.
You seem to think that God is inadequate.
My God is all-sufficient. I need to pray to no one besides the Father.
jw

As for my own personal style, I do agree that I have my own personal way to
prayer, my way of approaching God that is inspired by the Holy Spirit but
unique to me.

Who says "your way" is "inspired by the Holy Spirit?" The way you
KNOW that is that the Bible tells you that when you behave a certain
way, you are obeying the Holy Spirit. But since you REJECT that
authority of the Bible, how do you KNOW the Holy Spirit is inspiring
you to do ANYTHING?
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspires you to be apostate, but
apostate you are.
The way I pray to Him is different than the way you pray to

Him.

How do you know?
It has to be, we are different people. Don't assume, however, that

because I petition to saints that I do not go to Jesus.

The Jesus who allows you to petition "saints" is a false god. The God
of the Bible told us to petition ONLY God. "When you pray, say, Our
Father..." He did NOT say, "or pray to Mary or to Pete if you want."
And now I've read enough of your heresies to vomit.
jw
snip
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 03:54:45 AM

"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:4k52s0d9ffnajmeoptj7sgubb6al7rq0un@4ax.com...

If you are not praying to long-departed "saints", how do you
"communicate" with them?

I just say "Hey, St. Francis, can you pray for me?" I believe that he can
hear me. I also know that in my heart that Jesus will bring my intention to
St. Francis so that He can join with me in prayer.
I often pray to Jesus to open the ears and eyes of the saints and angels in
heaven that they see me and pray for me.

That is called "prayer" if they are no long among the living on
terra-firma.

According to who? You? Are you an all knowing authority on prayer?

What you are saying is that if we aren't praying to God in heaven,
then "speaking with" souls that are no longer among the flesh is not
called "praying."

I am not speaking with the saints in heaven, I am speaking to. I also ask
God to open their ears to my requests, that they may pray for me.

Where in the Bible do you get that definition?

I ask God to open their ears to my words that they may pray for me. Is it
wrong to ask that of God? No. It isn't wrong to ask God for anything that
we need.

It's one thing to be studying for that final and asking your parents,
your siblings, your mate, your children, and your buddies on the
football team to pray that you Ace it.

Never played football :p

It's something else entirely to "communicate" with people you have
never known.

Though they passed on long ago, I do know them. The example they led has
not been forgotten. I did not know their face, but I knew their morals,
teachings, and interactions. I never knew the face of Jesus, but I still
know Him.

AGAIN, you permit the RCC to REDEFINE Christianity to be something
OTHER than what the apostles/Christ taught.

Where in scripture does it say that one can't ask the saints in heaven to
pray for you? You claim that Christ telling his apostles how they should
pray is his commanding them how to pray. If so, every time someone says a
prayer that is not the Lord's prayer, they are violating that commandment.
In Revelation, we are shown the angels and the saints offering our prayers
to God. We are being shown them praying for us. Therefore, asking them to
pray for us isn't wrong, especially if we ask God to open their ears to our
intentions.

And when Jesus said "It is finished", one thing He DID mean was that
the gospel had been defined. Period.

That can be interpreted in many ways. You are arrogant in thinking that you
know exactly what Jesus meant when he said "It is finished". To me, I
believe that signifies that his mission on earth has been completed, that
the passion was His purpose and that He succeeded and cried out for joy that
the suffering he underwent is over.

Atonement is through no other source than Christ.

I am not seeking atonement through anyone else but Christ.

You still have not explained why you NEED to pray to anyone in heaven
OTHER than God.

I am not praying to them, as you think prayer is. I am asking them to pray
for me. I dont' ask God to pray for me. That is foolish. I ask God to
bless me. I ask the saints in heaven to pray for me that the Lord blesses
me.

You seem to think that God is inadequate.

Don't put words in my mouth, please. You do not know what I am thinking,
unless you claim yourself to be able to hear thoughts.

My God is all-sufficient. I need to pray to no one besides the Father.

Your God? Since when did God belong to you? You serve Him who is in
Heaven. In the name of the King of Heaven, open your eyes to the fact that
we are both brothers in Christ! You do not hear my prayers, yet you judge
them. You do not hear my thoughts, yet you criticize them! You do not
sense the content of my heart, yet you justify it? Who are you to criticize
what you do not know or understand? Who are you to say these things against
me, but a servant of the Lord in Heaven? I find justification in God and
God alone, not in your interpretations which I sense attempt to bring me
away from the God who has filled my heart and life with blessings and love.

I have not rejected the authority of scripture. I recognize, instead, its
incompleteness and turn to the king of heaven for the greatest authority,
and through prayer and revelation I have been led to the doctrine and creed
of the Catholic Church.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspires you to be apostate, but
apostate you are.

I have my religious faith which I have not abandoned. The Devil wants me to
turn my back on my faith which I have always walked in. I have always
walked the path of Christ with the guidance of the Church. Satan wants me
to fail, wants me to abandon Him who has always guided and protected me. In
enduring through these interrogations and trials you bring forth, I have not
fallen and have not hindered, therefore am not apostate. Choose your words
properly, friend.

The way I pray to Him is different than the way you pray to

Him.

How do you know?

You said so yourself.

It has to be, we are different people. Don't assume, however, that

because I petition to saints that I do not go to Jesus.

You just called Jesus a false god? How dare you claim that! Jesus Christ
is all true and all loving, all deserving of our love and worship! I call
to Jesus Christ. There is only one Christos, one Messiah, and He is Jesus
Christ, the only begotton son of the Father, the God of Jacob, Isaac,
Abraham, Moses, Adam, the Father of the people Israel! He is the Lord and
ruler over all and through the power of His Holy Spirit, I have found light
in the darkness of the world! There is no where that I can go which renders
me hidden from Him, not even to the depths of hell or to the far side of the
sea! God knows me from the depths of the earth to the actions and words I
have not even spoken yet! He is familiar with all my ways! I love Him! I
trust in Him as Lord and Savior over me and I hope that he will come again
in Glory Now and here so that I may be with Him! But I know that it is His
will, not mine to be followed, and I know that if something leads me away
from Him whom I have come to know and love, that is something from the
enemy, a deception, a lie. You attempt to turn me away from that which has
guided me to Him and in doing so, prove yourself to be a ravenous wolf only
interested in my abandonment of the Lord whom I love.
I have read enough of your ignorant ways to make me dizzy. I have only
tried to reach out to you as a friend and brother in Christ, yet you have
done nothing but push me away! Who then is walking away from this
conversation feeling alright? The man who pushed a friend away, or the man
who was rejected? I will go to sleep tonight knowing that I have done what
Christ had wanted me to do, in professing my faith in Him, in reaching out
to you in brotherhood, and in enduring in faith and love. You, however, do
not have that luxury for you abandoned and rejected who might have otherwise
been a trusted friend and companion in the Lord.
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 12:28:04 AM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cprm1k$bcm$1@news3.bu.edu...

"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:4k52s0d9ffnajmeoptj7sgubb6al7rq0un@4ax.com...

If you are not praying to long-departed "saints", how do you
"communicate" with them?

I just say "Hey, St. Francis, can you pray for me?" I believe that he can
hear me. I also know that in my heart that Jesus will bring my intention
to St. Francis so that He can join with me in prayer.

I often pray to Jesus to open the ears and eyes of the saints and angels
in heaven that they see me and pray for me.

So you don't pray the ROSARY?

That is called "prayer" if they are no long among the living on
terra-firma.

According to who? You? Are you an all knowing authority on prayer?

*You believe in this?
"We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary
than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope,
our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help" (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse
de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
--------------------
"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray to
her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism 2679)
------------------

What you are saying is that if we aren't praying to God in heaven,
then "speaking with" souls that are no longer among the flesh is not
called "praying."

I am not speaking with the saints in heaven, I am speaking to. I also ask
God to open their ears to my requests, that they may pray for me.

--------------------
Even the Pope prays to Mary "Mary of the New Advent, we implore your
protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting
[World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day
to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world
.... the whole world to YOU." (August 1993, Denver, Colorado, Pope John Paul
11).
---------------------
When we look in the Bible we find that prayer is directed to God alone. To
set up a person as a recipient for our prayers, no matter how great they are
is making them out to be deity. Asking a saint to help and guide or protect
is something only God can do. As someone once put it, why go to the branch
office when you can go to the president. There is not one example of a
Christian addressing prayers to Mary or saints, or those who are dead
passing from our world. There is much to be said of those who practice
Spiritism that use this method. Catholic defenders suggest that Mary is not
part of "the dead", since she's spiritually alive in Heaven. The passages
in Deuteronomy 18 and Isaiah 8 are referring to the physically dead, not the
spiritually dead. There are hundreds of prayers and passages about prayer
in scripture, and none of them instruct prayers to the dead. The scriptures
forbid attempting to contact the dead, yet the Catholic Church teaches
people to do it.
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 01:15:09 AM

How did the rosary get into this argument? Did I say anything about that
tool of prayer?
I pray to Jesus more than I ask for the intercession of the saints. 100% of
my prayers are to Jesus. I do, however, ask the saints in heaven to pray
for me.
You think they can't hear us. I know they can.
You say they are dead. In Christ, there is no death.
Jesus said "Ask anything in my name and it will be given." I asked the Lord
to open the ears of the saints in Heaven that they may hear my intentions
and pray for me."
As for your "We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name
of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus."
I believe that Mary can interceed and pray for us to Jesus, but I know that
joining in prayer with her to Jesus, my prayers will be answered. Jesus is
our salvation, our Life, our hope, our council, our refuge, our help.
I don't, however, expect you to understand the deep symbolism rooted in our
cries of intercession to Mary.
I am done with this for now. I might write back later. I have some work to
finish.
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 01:48:20 AM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpu126$d8p$1@news3.bu.edu...

You said you don't pray but ask them?
here it it again.
--------------------
"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray to
her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism 2679)
---------------------
*Now, will you deny PRAYING to Mary?

Jesus said "Ask anything in my name and it will be given." I asked the
Lord to open the ears of the saints in Heaven that they may hear my
intentions and pray for me."

As for your "We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the
name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus."

see Catechism 2679 (you do pray to Mary)

I believe that Mary can interceed and pray for us to Jesus, but I know
that joining in prayer with her to Jesus, my prayers will be answered.
Jesus is our salvation, our Life, our hope, our council, our refuge, our
help.

Mybe you forgot to read this:
----------------------
"We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary
than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope,
our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help" (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse
de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).
*She is your salvation, your life, & your hope ?
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 04:24:53 AM

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qgwwd.2586$n%2.1288@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpu126$d8p$1@news3.bu.edu...

You changed it and cut it off!
Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering WITH her to the plan of the Father, who sends his
son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother
into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can
pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer
of Mary and united with it in hope. 2680 In brief, Prayer is primarily
addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particulary
by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have
mercy on us sinners." 2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the
HOly Spirit" The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the
interior Teacher of Christian prayer. 2682 Because of Mary's singular
cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray IN
COMMUNION with the Virgin Mary, to magnify WITH her the great things the
Lord has done for her, and to ENTRUST supplications and praises to her.
You still do not understand that you are adhering to your concept of the
word "prayer". Just as a word may be defined differently between dialects
of the same language, so your "prayer" and Catholic "prayer" are different.
Do I pray to Mary? In the time-forged term of the Catholic Church, yes. In
your definition of it, no.
Do I worship Mary? In the time-forged term of the Catholic CHurch, yes. In
your definition of it, no.
Just as you can't take bits and pieces of the bible, you can't just take one
verse from the Catechism, and when you quote it, you have to quote the other
relevant parts of the article and make sure that you quote it correctly.
You changed pray-er to prayer, two different things. pray-er is one who
prays. Prayer is a fervent request.
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 08:16:13 PM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpuc60$jk4$1@news3.bu.edu...

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qgwwd.2586$n%2.1288@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpu126$d8p$1@news3.bu.edu...

You said you don't pray but ask them?
here it it again.
--------------------
"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray
to
her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism 2679)
---------------------

You changed it and cut it off!

Of course. I wanted to show you this text: "When we pray to her (Mary),
which you denied.

Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering WITH her to the plan of the Father, who sends his
son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother
into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can
pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer
of Mary and united with it in hope. 2680 In brief, Prayer is primarily
addressed to the Father; it can also be directed toward Jesus, particulary
by the invocation of his holy name: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have
mercy on us sinners." 2681 "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord', except by the
HOly Spirit" The Church invites us to invoke the Holy Spirit as the
interior Teacher of Christian prayer. 2682 Because of Mary's singular
cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray
IN COMMUNION with the Virgin Mary, to magnify WITH her the great things
the Lord has done for her, and to ENTRUST supplications and praises to
her.

Now your saying that you PRAY TO HER (Mary).
You said you don't pray to the dead, but just ask?

You still do not understand that you are adhering to your concept of the
word "prayer". Just as a word may be defined differently between dialects
of the same language, so your "prayer" and Catholic "prayer" are
different.

And your "praying to the dead" is not the same as "praying to Mary(who
died)"?

Do I pray to Mary? In the time-forged term of the Catholic Church, yes.
In your definition of it, no.

Now you pray to the dead.
And what definition?

Do I worship Mary? In the time-forged term of the Catholic CHurch, yes.
In your definition of it, no.

And you worship Mary???

Just as you can't take bits and pieces of the bible, you can't just take
one verse from the Catechism, and when you quote it, you have to quote the
other relevant parts of the article and make sure that you quote it
correctly. You changed pray-er to prayer, two different things. pray-er
is one who prays. Prayer is a fervent request.

Not talking about pray-er. I'm showing you this: "When we pray to her".
And you said you don't pray to the dead.
Now you 're saying, you pray BUT with your own definition of prayer.
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 11:54:09 PM

Wow... you have no skill in reading comprehension.
Your ineptitude ceased to amaze me. I am so overwhelmed by it that I am too
busy laughing at you in order to respond.
<snip>
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	18 Dec 2004 12:26:51 AM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0gmb$oh4$1@news3.bu.edu...

Wow... you have no skill in reading comprehension.

Your ineptitude ceased to amaze me. I am so overwhelmed by it that I am
too busy laughing at you in order to respond.

<snip>

Because you cannot deny that you said you don't pray to the dead,
and I showed you this:
"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism 2679)
You cannot respond because you're saying another, and when I proved that you
contradict your own teachings, you tried to escape by giving the above post.
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	18 Dec 2004 01:20:30 AM

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:baQwd.2901$Ij7.900@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0gmb$oh4$1@news3.bu.edu...

Wow... you have no skill in reading comprehension.

Your ineptitude ceased to amaze me. I am so overwhelmed by it that I am
too busy laughing at you in order to respond.

<snip>

Because you cannot deny that you said you don't pray to the dead,
and I showed you this:

"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism
2679)

You cannot respond because you're saying another, and when I proved that
you contradict your own teachings, you tried to escape by giving the above
post.

Dude, you already showed me this. I told you, as well, that you mustn't
look only at one verse of that article but the entire thing. Don't take out
of context. Mary isn't dead. In Christ there is no death.
I really didn't try to escape. I was laughing too hard because nothing you
said or asked made any sense at all. You sounded like a sniveling and
half-brained twit. None of your sentences were complete and you offered no
legitimate response to my claim. You ignored my justification of why you
were wrong by nitpicking at irrelevent details in order to regain control of
what you lost so long ago.
Your reading comprehension was horrible in that you missed the entire point
of my post which you responded to.
Let me make this as monosyllabic as possible:
I don't much care for the way you define your words. In fact, I find them
to be too "Protestantized". "To pray" as defined in Catholic faith isn't
the same as "to pray" in protestant faith. "To worship" as defined in
Catholic faith isn't the same as "to worship" defined in protesetant faith.
These two groups are unique. They are entirely different cultures. You
cannot judge a culture different from your own based on parameters from your
culture because, unless submersing yourself in the cutlure you are
analyzing, you are unable to understand what it really is. I have been
submersed in protestant culture. I have attended enough events to know and
respect the faith of those protestants who are able to look beyond the
differences Catholics and Protestants hold in order to reforge the family of
God through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I cannot, however, condone
your beliefs or attitudes against Catholic faith because they only show you
to be a hate-mongering, insufferable know-it-all. Anyone who attacks my
faith wishes to undermind the efforts of unity I am trying to make between
Catholics and Protestants. In defending my faith, however, I am doing what
Christ has called me to do: attempt through the deliverence of truth to call
out to those who are asleep to Him. If someone can so judge and
discriminate against another walk of faith, that person is asleep to Christ
who is the light of the world.
Wake up and realize that we do not have to argue like this. If you stop
attacking my faith, you will be able to step back from your hateful ways and
look beyond our differences and find common ground in the light and love of
Jesus Christ. If you do this, then you belong to His Church. If, however,
you continue to judge and discriminate those who walk in Christ in a way
unfamiliar to you, then you will never know Him for you will never know that
He calls to us in many different ways.
I pray that you will be able to look beyond these differences and join me on
the common ground that is the rock of Christ.
St. Judge: You are inspiration to people who find themselves in impossible
situations. Please pray for this man here, that he may be able to find his
way to Christ and accept into his heart a the Spirit of humility and
justice. When you pray this, pray it in the name of our common lord, Jesus
Christ.
Lord Jesus, open the ears of St. Jude to these intentions, that he may join
with me in worship of our Heavenly Father. I pray this in your name. Amen
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	18 Dec 2004 02:16:58 AM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0lo9$56f$1@news3.bu.edu...

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:baQwd.2901$Ij7.900@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0gmb$oh4$1@news3.bu.edu...

Wow... you have no skill in reading comprehension.

Your ineptitude ceased to amaze me. I am so overwhelmed by it that I am
too busy laughing at you in order to respond.

<snip>

Because you cannot deny that you said you don't pray to the dead,
and I showed you this:

"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism
2679)

You cannot respond because you're saying another, and when I proved that
you contradict your own teachings, you tried to escape by giving the
above post.

<snip>
So you don't pray to the dead, but you pray to Mary if you agree on
Catechism 2679 that indicate the text "When we pray to her"?
What's going on in your mind?
Now tell me. Do you pray to Mary? (Yes/No)
Do you pray to the dead ? (Yes/No)
Will you recognize Catechism 2679 ? (Yes/No)
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	18 Dec 2004 02:37:34 PM

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rNRwd.2910$vJ7.932@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0lo9$56f$1@news3.bu.edu...

"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:baQwd.2901$Ij7.900@fe12.lga...

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cq0gmb$oh4$1@news3.bu.edu...

Wow... you have no skill in reading comprehension.

Your ineptitude ceased to amaze me. I am so overwhelmed by it that I
am too busy laughing at you in order to respond.

<snip>

Because you cannot deny that you said you don't pray to the dead,
and I showed you this:

"Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray
to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father" (Catechism
2679)

You cannot respond because you're saying another, and when I proved that
you contradict your own teachings, you tried to escape by giving the
above post.

<snip>
So you don't pray to the dead, but you pray to Mary if you agree on
Catechism 2679 that indicate the text "When we pray to her"?

What's going on in your mind?

What is going on in my mind is that you aren't taking to heart my arguments
and justifications, but looking for any meaningless loophole to work through
them. You are ignoring the meat of my justifications.

Now tell me. Do you pray to Mary? (Yes/No)

Yes, in the Catholic sense of the word "prayer"
No, in the Protestant sense of the word "prayer"

Do you pray to the dead ? (Yes/No)

No: Those in Christ have no death.

Will you recognize Catechism 2679 ? (Yes/No)

I will. I will also recognize Catechism 2663 - 2682 (THE ENTIRE ARTICLE).
You can't take five words out of the article. You must extract meaning from
the whole articile rather than just one sentence in it. You lose meaning in
extracting half a sentence from an article consisting of over a dozen
paragraphs. Also, you lose meaning in that article if you don't take into
account the reflections from the entire chapter.
-RS
.

User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	19 Dec 2004 01:44:10 PM

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:37:34 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> spoke the
following words of wisdom:

Now tell me. Do you pray to Mary? (Yes/No)

Yes, in the Catholic sense of the word "prayer"
No, in the Protestant sense of the word "prayer"

Come on, now. YES OR NO.
There is no such thing as a "Catholic sense of the word' or a
Protestant sense of the word' PRAYER.

Do you pray to the dead ? (Yes/No)

No: Those in Christ have no death.

so, your parents, who may yet still be physically alive -------------
when they DIE, physically, will they still live at your home?
Will you get to see them physically every day?
I ask not iin mocking, but in the ATTEMPT to open your eyes.
Rob, MY parents are both dead. Dead, as 'on earth'
would have it.
Yes, their souls ARE in Heaven, but I still miss them very, very much.
They are not here to talk to, to visit, to cook a meal for, to have
some laughs with........... but their SOULS are in Heaven.
The only time I can 'visit' my parents now is to go to their grave
sites, where I make sure the plots are clean, tend to the plots, etc.
I will NEVER get to SEE them again until that day when Jesus calls me
home.
Might I ask --------- are your parents both still alive ?

Will you recognize Catechism 2679 ? (Yes/No)

I will. I will also recognize Catechism 2663 - 2682 (THE ENTIRE

ARTICLE).
sure 'you will '----- but with any REAL, factual insight?????? Or will
you 'recognize' the thnig because some priest tells you to??

You can't take five words out of the article. You must extract

meaning from

the whole articile rather than just one sentence in it. You lose

meaning in

extracting half a sentence from an article consisting of over a dozen
paragraphs. Also, you lose meaning in that article if you don't take

into

account the reflections from the entire chapter.

EXCUSE ME????
YOUR religion took different verses from the Bible, and turned them
into the 'Hail Mary"
The angel spoke to her in GREETING, not in adoration...... yet your
religion claims the angel said , "HAIL, Mary............"
That angel simply said "HAIL" ..........
Your religion took from another part of the Bible in which Mary was
told she was 'blessed among women' and said she was 'full of
grace'...
So, you added, "Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou among
women"
Need I go any further?
The RC 'hail Mary' is a plagiarized joke, stolen in part from
different books of the Bible.

-RS

--
The official Usenet GHOST....
haunting romanists EVERYWHERE!
BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! BOO!
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	19 Dec 2004 03:01:37 PM

"Doc Watson -- the "Usenet GHOST!" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote in message
news:dpkbs01i2r9s32epsd4jsr1scocshb293p@4ax.com...

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:37:34 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> spoke the
following words of wisdom:

Now tell me. Do you pray to Mary? (Yes/No)

Yes, in the Catholic sense of the word "prayer"
No, in the Protestant sense of the word "prayer"

Come on, now. YES OR NO.

There is no such thing as a "Catholic sense of the word' or a
Protestant sense of the word' PRAYER.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church adheres to how the words were used in
the past few hundred years, and the origins of the word. Prayer, for us,
simply means to petition. Worship, for us, mearly means to give honor to
those who are venerable.
To Protestants, however, they isolate those two words to being actions to
God alone.

Do you pray to the dead ? (Yes/No)

No: Those in Christ have no death.

so, your parents, who may yet still be physically alive -------------
when they DIE, physically, will they still live at your home?
Will you get to see them physically every day?
I ask not iin mocking, but in the ATTEMPT to open your eyes.

Rob, MY parents are both dead. Dead, as 'on earth'
would have it.

Yes, their souls ARE in Heaven, but I still miss them very, very much.
They are not here to talk to, to visit, to cook a meal for, to have
some laughs with........... but their SOULS are in Heaven.
The only time I can 'visit' my parents now is to go to their grave
sites, where I make sure the plots are clean, tend to the plots, etc.

I feel that when a person's body dies, their spirit goes on to heaven, as
you feel. Their bodies aren't who they are. Their spirits are. I can't
visit with those who have passed on, but I can still communicate with them
(on a one-way basis) I ask God to open their ears to my petitions so that
they may pray for me. They can hear my intentions spoken to them.

I will NEVER get to SEE them again until that day when Jesus calls me
home.

Might I ask --------- are your parents both still alive ?

Yes they are, though my grandparents have passed on. WHen I lost my
grandfather, I felt as though I had lost my own father. I pray to God that
my grandfather's ears be opened to my words so that he could hear my
intentions and pray to me. I never got to say goodbye to him physically,
but I was able to tell him goodbye while he was in heaven, that I will miss
him, that I will always love him, and I asked him to always pray for me. I
believe... no... I know my words were given to him.

Will you recognize Catechism 2679 ? (Yes/No)

I will. I will also recognize Catechism 2663 - 2682 (THE ENTIRE

ARTICLE).

sure 'you will '----- but with any REAL, factual insight?????? Or will
you 'recognize' the thnig because some priest tells you to??

On the contary, a priest has never told me to read the catechism. I found
it and started reading it on my own. Protestants always feel that we only
do what our priests tell us to do. This is completely bogus because our
priests have such busy live that they have very little time to instruct us
on every matter of faith. Our faith is our own. If we have a question or
concern, we can come before a priest but other than that, we are on our own
to ensure our own spirits, with the guidance and help of God, of course :p

You can't take five words out of the article. You must extract

meaning from

the whole articile rather than just one sentence in it. You lose

meaning in

extracting half a sentence from an article consisting of over a dozen
paragraphs. Also, you lose meaning in that article if you don't take

into

account the reflections from the entire chapter.

EXCUSE ME????

YOUR religion took different verses from the Bible, and turned them
into the 'Hail Mary"

It isn't wrong to take wording from the scripture and extrapolate it into a
single prayer. We aren't attempting to analyze scripture for meaning, but
merely using how people were addressed.
"Hail Mary (hello Mary), full of grace (this is how she is addressed). The
Lord is with you (how is this wrong to say?). Blessed are you among women
(this is how she is addressed) and blessed is the fruit of your womb (How
her cousin addressed her) Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God (Jesus is God,
Mary is Jesus' mother) , pray for us sinners (I've addressed this) now and
at the hour of our death. Amen.
Nothing is wrong in that because when we say "hail, mary", we, too, are
greeting Mary.
Just as if I were somewhat old fashioned I would say "Hail, Jim!" (don't
really know a jim, but you get the idea)
When extracting meaning, however, you must analyze not only the passage but
the passages before it and after it, as well as parallel passages in other
parts of scripture and allusions or references to OT sources.
-RS
.

User: "Doc Watson -- the \Usenet GHOST!\ :O"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	20 Dec 2004 03:26:14 PM

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:01:37 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> spoke the
following words of wisdom:

"Doc Watson -- the "Usenet GHOST!" :O)" <me@you.net> wrote in message
news:dpkbs01i2r9s32epsd4jsr1scocshb293p@4ax.com...

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:37:34 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> spoke the
following words of wisdom:

Now tell me. Do you pray to Mary? (Yes/No)

Yes, in the Catholic sense of the word "prayer"
No, in the Protestant sense of the word "prayer"

Come on, now. YES OR NO.

There is no such thing as a "Catholic sense of the word' or a
Protestant sense of the word' PRAYER.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church adheres to how the words were

used in

the past few hundred years, and the origins of the word. Prayer, for

us,

simply means to petition. Worship, for us, mearly means to give

honor to

those who are venerable.

To Protestants, however, they isolate those two words to being

actions to

God alone.

True.
Okay-- I can live with that.
Althouigh I do NOT agree with your praying TO Mary, I will accept that
you believe 'praqy' means to simply 'petition'.........

Rob, MY parents are both dead. Dead, as 'on earth'
would have it.

Yes, their souls ARE in Heaven, but I still miss them very, very

much.

They are not here to talk to, to visit, to cook a meal for, to have
some laughs with........... but their SOULS are in Heaven.
The only time I can 'visit' my parents now is to go to their grave
sites, where I make sure the plots are clean, tend to the plots,

etc.

I feel that when a person's body dies, their spirit goes on to

heaven, as

you feel. Their bodies aren't who they are. Their spirits are. I

can't

visit with those who have passed on, but I can still communicate with

them

(on a one-way basis) I ask God to open their ears to my petitions so

that

they may pray for me. They can hear my intentions spoken to them.

Well, again, I must disagree, although respectfully.
I have had experience with ghostly activity, also. Perhaps you have
not.......... I don't know.
But it seems that those 'ghosts' are sometimes people who feel
entrapped and for some reason cannot leave this plane-------- long
story.

I will NEVER get to SEE them again until that day when Jesus calls

home.

Might I ask --------- are your parents both still alive ?

Yes they are, though my grandparents have passed on. WHen I lost my
grandfather, I felt as though I had lost my own father. I pray to

God that

my grandfather's ears be opened to my words so that he could hear my
intentions and pray to me. I never got to say goodbye to him

physically,

but I was able to tell him goodbye while he was in heaven, that I

will miss

him, that I will always love him, and I asked him to always pray for

me. I

believe... no... I know my words were given to him.

I can understand that.
We each have different reasons for believing what we do, I reckon.
It's always hard when you don't really get the chance to say "Goodbye"
even if it is for a temporary period.
I apologize for misjudging you.
I try NOT to judge.
But sometimes, it does happen, and hey--- I am FAR from perfect.
I'm sorry.

On the contary, a priest has never told me to read the catechism. I

found

it and started reading it on my own. Protestants always feel that we

only

do what our priests tell us to do. This is completely bogus because

our

priests have such busy live that they have very little time to

instruct us

on every matter of faith. Our faith is our own. If we have a

question or

concern, we can come before a priest but other than that, we are on

our own

to ensure our own spirits, with the guidance and help of God, of

course :p

Well, I won't believe THAT entirely, having seen a lot of things that
some priests wish I had not. But I will not call you a liar for what
you're saying, as you alone have your own experiences.
--
The official Usenet GHOST....
haunting romanists EVERYWHERE!
BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! BOO!
.

User: "j w"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 10:39:46 AM

"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
news:4k52s0d9ffnajmeoptj7sgubb6al7rq0un@4ax.com...

If you are not praying to long-departed "saints", how do you
"communicate" with them?

Rubbish! Christianity is NOT based on "feelings". It IS based on
"every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

I often pray to Jesus to open the ears and eyes of the saints and angels in
heaven that they see me and pray for me.

That is called "prayer" if they are no long among the living on
terra-firma.

According to who? You? Are you an all knowing authority on prayer?

Just what I get from the Bible. It is an act of worship, and Jesus
said that proper pray was addressed to God.

What you are saying is that if we aren't praying to God in heaven,
then "speaking with" souls that are no longer among the flesh is not
called "praying."

I am not speaking with the saints in heaven, I am speaking to. I also ask
God to open their ears to my requests, that they may pray for me.

Where in the Bible do you get that definition?

I ask God to open their ears to my words that they may pray for me. Is it
wrong to ask that of God? No.

Yes. Find it in scripture.
It isn't wrong to ask God for anything that

we need.

We do not "need" anyone in heaven to pray for us. God takes care of
that. And AGAIN, you merely state that you intend to RATIONALIZE
doing as you damn well please, and mis-labeling it "Christianity."
jw
snip
Going nowhere fast, and I refuse to waste my time on pagans.
.

User: "RS"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	16 Dec 2004 11:08:22 AM

<snip>
I am utterly done with you. I shake the dust from my feet and move on. I
will not waste my time with anyone who so willingly pushes people away from
him because of mere differences in opinion. You are arrogant and think you
are right in attacking my faith, yet I have done nothing to attack yours.
Arrogance is a sublet of pride, and last time I checked pride as you are
displaying it is something that pushes you away from Christ.
I am secure when I walk away from this argument, that my faith is sound and
structrued in Christ with the guidance of the Church. I attempted to reach
out to you in a Christ-like way yet you pushed me away over and over and
over again (very un-Christ like). I am sad that you are so hypocritical and
judgemental... last time I checked those were two virtues unbecoming a true
Christian, which you are proving yourself over and over again to not be.
When I read the way you treat my arguments and the way you treat me, I see
someone who is lost and despairing, arrogant and hurting, angry and
stubborn.
When I examine my writings (as if I didn't write them) I see someone being
set in the ways of their faith. I haven't abandoned my faith which has led
me to Jesus Christ. You call me a pagan because of that. It seems as if
you are backwards, friend.
-RS
.

User: "Streamer"
Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding	17 Dec 2004 12:29:35 AM

"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpsfed$r0b$1@news3.bu.edu...

<snip>

The most often used way to pray is by the rosary, which is a series of
prayers said that are counted on a string of beads (groups of ten small
beads separated by one large one, there are five sets of decades) All the
prayers said to both Mary and the Father are said with no distinction. There
is one "our father"