| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
14 Dec 2004 08:43:09 PM |
| Object: |
Consulting the dead. |
The Bible condemns necromancy (consulting the dead).
Prayers to "saints" who have died are sinful.
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Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in
the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of
spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the
dead. (Deuteronomy 18:10-11)
-----------------------
When Jesus' disciples asked him how they were to pray, Jesus didn't tell
them to consult dead "saints." He told them to pray directly to God, their
Father (Luke 11:1-4).
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| User: "JCarew" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 09:42:16 PM |
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JMJ
"Streamer" wrote
The Bible condemns necromancy (consulting the dead).
Prayers to "saints" who have died are sinful.
The "saints" are not dead there alive in Christ.
If what you say be true then Christ's crucifixion
on earth 1900+ years ago was a useless act.
Jim Carew sfo
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 10:00:02 PM |
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"JCarew" <othmer@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:soOvd.46868$Qv5.5671@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
JMJ
"Streamer" wrote
The Bible condemns necromancy (consulting the dead).
Prayers to "saints" who have died are sinful.
The "saints" are not dead there alive in Christ.
If what you say be true then Christ's crucifixion
on earth 1900+ years ago was a useless act.
Those dead that I'm saying is PHYSICALLY DEAD HERE ON EARTH.
Where in the Bible can you find that Christians prayed to those "dead here
on earth" ?
Never they practiced it. NEVER.
Jesus said to pray directly to God (Luke 11:1-4)
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 10:31:37 PM |
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Again your sola scriptura attitude isn't justified. Scripture is
incomplete: It says so itself.
Scripture was written before communities, traditions, and practices of
Christianity came into common practice. There are many things done by
Protestant churches now that aren't in scripture. Are there any examples of
prayer through song in scripture? Many people might say that it is pagan to
pray with music, but it isn't.
That is just one example. Sola scriptura isn't justified, plain and simple.
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 10:38:18 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpoenh$mih$1@news3.bu.edu...
Again your sola scriptura attitude isn't justified. Scripture is
incomplete: It says so itself.
Scripture was written before communities, traditions, and practices of
Christianity came into common practice. There are many things done by
Protestant churches now that aren't in scripture. Are there any examples
of prayer through song in scripture? Many people might say that it is
pagan to pray with music, but it isn't.
That is just one example. Sola scriptura isn't justified, plain and
simple.
-RS
What are you talking about ?
Go back to the original topic pls.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 01:29:54 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UhPvd.1642$Vr6.1421@fe12.lga...
What are you talking about ?
Go back to the original topic pls.
Actually this is quite on topic. I am sorry that you can't see that. You
are justifying your original claim with a sola-scriptura attitude (or
sola-your scriptura). There are so many traditions in both the RC Church
and the Protestant Churches that aren't in scripture. Are these traditions,
then, wrong? No. Scripture isn't complete so the absence of something from
scripture doesn't necessarily make it incomplete. Look at the Gentile
mission. Jesus did very little in teaching his apostles to approach
Gentiles. His mission was to the people of Israel. The apostles then had
to go out on their own to convert the Gentiles. Just because Christ didn't
teach them something, then, didn't mean they were doing anything wrong
(though some of them were, in the case of the conflict between Peter and
Paul as to who was the voice to the gentiles).
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 02:25:06 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpop5t$qop$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UhPvd.1642$Vr6.1421@fe12.lga...
What are you talking about ?
Go back to the original topic pls.
Actually this is quite on topic. I am sorry that you can't see that. You
are justifying your original claim with a sola-scriptura attitude (or
sola-your scriptura). There are so many traditions in both the RC Church
and the Protestant Churches that aren't in scripture. Are these
traditions, then, wrong? No. Scripture isn't complete so the absence of
something from scripture doesn't necessarily make it incomplete. Look at
the Gentile mission. Jesus did very little in teaching his apostles to
approach Gentiles. His mission was to the people of Israel. The apostles
then had to go out on their own to convert the Gentiles. Just because
Christ didn't teach them something, then, didn't mean they were doing
anything wrong (though some of them were, in the case of the conflict
between Peter and Paul as to who was the voice to the gentiles).
Are you afraid to talk to God directly ?
Why do you make your own style ?
Follow Christ.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 02:55:58 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xCSvd.1662$1Y6.309@fe12.lga...
Are you afraid to talk to God directly ?
Why do you make your own style ?
Follow Christ.
What makes you think that because I have my own style of prayer (the way I
word my sentences, the way I sit, the way I meditate, the way I pause, the
way I kneel, etc.) I don't go to God directly?
Asking other people to go to God with me isn't turning away from God.
Also, a large part of my prayer-time is spent in silent meditation and
writing. I write many of my prayers down and tape them around my room in
various unnoticable places (within my wardrobe or behind my door). I also
like to use a candle when I can, to symbolize my prayer going to God as the
heat and smoke from the candle travels upward. I like to meditate through
song, I like to pray that God visits me in dreams so I can be with Him.
I have my own way and style of prayer which is much different than yours.
It has to be. We are two entirely different people. If our style of prayer
were the same, we would be the same person, but God has made us as
individuals.
One last thing. There are hundreds of different types of Christians.
There are Christians who feel that Jesus Christ was all divine and only
appeared as a man.
There are Christians who felt that Jesus of Nazareth was 100% man and that
at the moment of baptism, was possessed by Christ and at the moment of
death, was abandoned by Christ (why have you forsaken me theory)
There are Christians who ascribe to the idea that the Jewish Father is a
sub-God in control of the domain of our cosmos and that Jesus comes from a
higher creator God, the true Father, to liberate us from the wrath of the
god of our universe.
I am none of these, however :p
Then there are the Roman Catholics, the protestants, the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the Orthodox, the Mormons.
Though many will say half these groups aren't really Christian, I believe in
one thing:
We all look to Jesus Christ as our personal lord and savior, all loving, all
forgiving. Regardless of mistakes we may make in interpreting his
teachings, we will be forgiven. We are human and God's will is perfect. We
can't interpret it perfectly because we are imperfect. We are all bound to
make mistakes.
Let me tell you about a young man named Francesco.
Francesco (or Francis) was a child of Assisi. He was proud, arrogant,
strong, young, lustful. He went off to war, however, sent by his father and
governor in Assisi. When he returned, he was sick with fever. The fever
broke and people thought him mad because he liked to look at flowers and
talk to birds and sing songs all day.
However, one day he was awakened by a vision from Christ. He realized that
the life he was living wasn't satisfying him anymore. He wanted to run
through fields, climb mountains, swim rivers without shoes and clothes and
material possessions holding him down. This boy, Francis, took off the
clothes from his back and gave them to his father infront of the whole town.
He walked out of the town naked and dedicated himself to rebuilding churches
and sacred ruins around assisi. He took on a vow of celibacy and poverty,
and cared for the poor, creating a community of friends who took the same
vow and chose to help the poor.
One day, however, his church was burned down by soldiers from the bishops
palace. He was devistated. He didn't know what he did wrong.
He went to Pope Innocent III, wondering if he made a mistake due to
presumption. You know what Pope Innocent III did? He called Francis to his
side and smiled at him. "Francesco, Francesco," he said in a calm and
tranquil voice. "Mistakes will be forgiven. You have brought me dear, dear
children in Christ [referring to Francis' followers and friends]. We have
been encrusted with riches and power, yet you... in all your poverty.... put
us to shame." He granted Francis leave to preacing repentance everywhere.
Before leaving Rome, they received the ecclesiastical tonsure. They also
recieved great blessings from Pope Innocent III. Some even say that the
pope kissed Francis' foot, a gesture of great respect and honor.
Whatever it be, I always remember the words "Mistakes will be forgiven".
Regardless of whether or not we misinterpret scritpure (for none of us can
truly be sure that we are interpreting it perfectly) mistakes will be
forgiven, for our God is a God of forgivness and mercy.
You and I are one in the same body, that being of Christ. We both trust Him
above all things, as our Lord and Savior. Why, then, can't we look beyond
our differences in certain traditions and unite together as companions and
brothers in Christ?
-Robert
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 03:38:09 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpou7a$knu$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xCSvd.1662$1Y6.309@fe12.lga...
Are you afraid to talk to God directly ?
Why do you make your own style ?
Follow Christ.
What makes you think that because I have my own style of prayer (the way I
word my sentences, the way I sit, the way I meditate, the way I pause, the
way I kneel, etc.) I don't go to God directly?
Asking other people to go to God with me isn't turning away from God.
In our natural movements(like walking while praying), It's okay.
But praying to the dead isnot Christian way.
You can't find any bible ref. that ask you to do, nor used asan example that
God's people did it.
Also, a large part of my prayer-time is spent in silent meditation and
writing. I write many of my prayers down and tape them around my room in
various unnoticable places (within my wardrobe or behind my door). I also
like to use a candle when I can, to symbolize my prayer going to God as
the heat and smoke from the candle travels upward. I like to meditate
through song, I like to pray that God visits me in dreams so I can be with
Him.
I have my own way and style of prayer which is much different than yours.
It has to be. We are two entirely different people. If our style of
prayer were the same, we would be the same person, but God has made us as
individuals.
You know that's not what we're talking about.
There are Christians who feel that Jesus Christ was all divine and only
appeared as a man.
There are Christians who felt that Jesus of Nazareth was 100% man and that
at the moment of baptism, was possessed by Christ and at the moment of
death, was abandoned by Christ (why have you forsaken me theory)
There are Christians who ascribe to the idea that the Jewish Father is a
sub-God in control of the domain of our cosmos and that Jesus comes from a
higher creator God, the true Father, to liberate us from the wrath of the
god of our universe.
The Bible is clear in those issues.
I am none of these, however :p
Then there are the Roman Catholics, the protestants, the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the Orthodox, the Mormons.
Though many will say half these groups aren't really Christian, I believe
in one thing:
We all look to Jesus Christ as our personal lord and savior, all loving,
all forgiving. Regardless of mistakes we may make in interpreting his
teachings, we will be forgiven. We are human and God's will is perfect.
We can't interpret it perfectly because we are imperfect. We are all
bound to make mistakes.
The Holy Spirit will help us understand the scriptures.
There are basic teachings that a true believer should have.
There are doctrines that even we misunderstood sometimes, our being the
child of God is still there because of that basic bible teachings (like one
must believe in God).
Let me tell you about a young man named Francesco.
Francesco (or Francis) was a child of Assisi. He was proud, arrogant,
strong, young, lustful. He went off to war, however, sent by his father
and governor in Assisi. When he returned, he was sick with fever. The
fever broke and people thought him mad because he liked to look at flowers
and talk to birds and sing songs all day.
However, one day he was awakened by a vision from Christ. He realized
that the life he was living wasn't satisfying him anymore. He wanted to
run through fields, climb mountains, swim rivers without shoes and clothes
and material possessions holding him down. This boy, Francis, took off
the clothes from his back and gave them to his father infront of the whole
town. He walked out of the town naked and dedicated himself to rebuilding
churches and sacred ruins around assisi. He took on a vow of celibacy and
poverty, and cared for the poor, creating a community of friends who took
the same vow and chose to help the poor.
One day, however, his church was burned down by soldiers from the bishops
palace. He was devistated. He didn't know what he did wrong.
He went to Pope Innocent III, wondering if he made a mistake due to
presumption. You know what Pope Innocent III did? He called Francis to
his side and smiled at him. "Francesco, Francesco," he said in a calm and
tranquil voice. "Mistakes will be forgiven. You have brought me dear,
dear children in Christ [referring to Francis' followers and friends]. We
have been encrusted with riches and power, yet you... in all your
poverty.... put us to shame." He granted Francis leave to preacing
repentance everywhere. Before leaving Rome, they received the
ecclesiastical tonsure. They also recieved great blessings from Pope
Innocent III. Some even say that the pope kissed Francis' foot, a gesture
of great respect and honor.
Whatever it be, I always remember the words "Mistakes will be forgiven".
Regardless of whether or not we misinterpret scritpure (for none of us can
truly be sure that we are interpreting it perfectly) mistakes will be
forgiven, for our God is a God of forgivness and mercy.
God will forgive His childrens if they seek forgiveness.
The question is, who are God's children & how do a person became one?
You and I are one in the same body, that being of Christ. We both trust
Him above all things, as our Lord and Savior. Why, then, can't we look
beyond our differences in certain traditions and unite together as
companions and brothers in Christ?
-Robert
I was born a catholic, got involved in some RCC programs like curcillo.
Until I read the bible myself. Found out that I can ask God directly, and
pryed to Him personally.
For the first time, I asked Him questions from my heart. I prayed the whole
night asking & praising Him without saying that repeated prayers. Until I
fall asleep.
Next morning, it's different. I can see the Bible clearly. My questions
answered thru the Bible.
My life changed. Now I asked Him & consult the Bible for the truth.
I just wish that you do too.
Ask Him to come onto you life. May He be the Lord of your life.
For you: John 1:12
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 03:49:20 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0HTvd.1668$NG.649@fe12.lga...
In our natural movements(like walking while praying), It's okay.
But praying to the dead isnot Christian way.
You can't find any bible ref. that ask you to do, nor used asan example
that God's people did it.
I already gave you a passage, the elders in heaven offering the prayers of
the saints on earth to God, through golden bowls of insence. They have our
prayers in Revelation... but we must give them the prayers first.
"St Paul, pray for me." A whisp of smoke joins the bowl St. Paul is offering
to the Lord :p
You know that's not what we're talking about.
On the contrary, we were discussing style of prayer. Every aspect of prayer
is a part of one's personal "style".
I was born a catholic, got involved in some RCC programs like curcillo.
Until I read the bible myself. Found out that I can ask God directly, and
pryed to Him personally.
If you weren't asking God directly and praying to Him personally, you were
mistaken and still are mistaken on the teachings of the Church. Look at the
mass: 100% of the prayers in mass are to God directly.
For the first time, I asked Him questions from my heart. I prayed the
whole night asking & praising Him without saying that repeated prayers.
Good for you... if you never did that before, then you weren't doing what
you were supposed to. I often have prayers that last an hour long. As for
"repeated prayers". When I say the Lord's prayer, it is different each and
every time I say it. Though I say the same words, the prayer is molded with
a different intention, with a different plea for forgivness, and a different
emotion making it unique each and every time. Also, what you may see as
repeating prayers, I don't. I know that somewhere in this world, the Lord's
prayer is being said. Therefore, when I recite the Lord's prayer, I am not
saying the prayer by myself (start to finish). Instead, I am joining in the
unceasing prayer. Scripture refers to prayer unceasing. The Catholic
Church has estalbished it! Somewhere on this planet mass is being held, if
not hundreds of places! Therefore, everytime mass beings somewhere, the
prayers being said and the songs being sung aren't just starting, but just
joining... joining in the unceasing prayer that we have created.
Next morning, it's different. I can see the Bible clearly. My questions >
answered thru the Bible.
My life changed. Now I asked Him & consult the Bible for the truth.
As do I. However, we both have different questions and hence, different
answers.
I just wish that you do too.
I have done that. Because I am Roman Catholic doesn't mean I am unable to
search scripture. It doesn't mean that I don't know how to pray or that I
haven't surrendered myself to God. It doesn't mean my questions don't come
from my heart. My life has changed so much because of my connection to God
and I have invited Him personally into my life. Why do you wish, then, what
has already happened?
Because God leads us in different directions that doesn't mean one of us is
being led astray. It merely means that God has different things in store
for us. You are being led on your own path by Him. I am being led on my
own path as well by Him. My path is with the Roman Catholic Church. I am
unsure of your path because I can't see you path clearly.
Five times have I asked you to take my hand in friendship and brotherhood.
Five times have you ignored the request.
-Rob
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
17 Dec 2004 12:58:41 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpp1bd$8t0$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0HTvd.1668$NG.649@fe12.lga...
In our natural movements(like walking while praying), It's okay.
But praying to the dead isnot Christian way.
You can't find any bible ref. that ask you to do, nor used asan example
that God's people did it.
I already gave you a passage, the elders in heaven offering the prayers of
the saints on earth to God, through golden bowls of insence. They have
our prayers in Revelation... but we must give them the prayers first.
If you look at it literally, then your prayers are delayed (God didn't hear)
until they offered it using the golden bowl?
"St Paul, pray for me." A whisp of smoke joins the bowl St. Paul is
offering to the Lord :p
Catholics would do well to also hear the words of Christ who said, 'whatever
you ask the Father in my name He will give you, Until now you have asked
nothing in my name. Ask and you will receive, that your joy may be full."
(John 16:23) Only God can fill you with this joy.
You know that's not what we're talking about.
On the contrary, we were discussing style of prayer. Every aspect of
prayer is a part of one's personal "style".
I was born a catholic, got involved in some RCC programs like curcillo.
Until I read the bible myself. Found out that I can ask God directly, and
pryed to Him personally.
If you weren't asking God directly and praying to Him personally, you were
mistaken and still are mistaken on the teachings of the Church. Look at
the mass: 100% of the prayers in mass are to God directly.
Despite the rejections of saying they are praying to Mary or saints the
Catholic Church does encourage praying to Mary as these excerpts from the
Catechism of the Catholic Church prove: "Beginning with Mans unique
cooperation with the working of the Holy- Spirit, the Churches developed
their prayer to the holy Mother of God" (Catechism 2675) They do this
claiming they are centering it "on the person of Christ manifested in his
mysteries."
'This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression
in the Ave Maria" (Catechism 2676)
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| User: "j" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
11 Feb 2005 07:07:21 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:38:09 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpou7a$knu$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xCSvd.1662$1Y6.309@fe12.lga...
Are you afraid to talk to God directly ?
Why do you make your own style ?
Follow Christ.
What makes you think that because I have my own style of prayer (the way I
word my sentences, the way I sit, the way I meditate, the way I pause, the
way I kneel, etc.) I don't go to God directly?
Asking other people to go to God with me isn't turning away from God.
In our natural movements(like walking while praying), It's okay.
But praying to the dead isnot Christian way.
You can't find any bible ref. that ask you to do, nor used asan example that
God's people did it.
Also, a large part of my prayer-time is spent in silent meditation and
writing. I write many of my prayers down and tape them around my room in
various unnoticable places (within my wardrobe or behind my door). I also
like to use a candle when I can, to symbolize my prayer going to God as
the heat and smoke from the candle travels upward. I like to meditate
through song, I like to pray that God visits me in dreams so I can be with
Him.
I have my own way and style of prayer which is much different than yours.
It has to be. We are two entirely different people. If our style of
prayer were the same, we would be the same person, but God has made us as
individuals.
You know that's not what we're talking about.
There are Christians who feel that Jesus Christ was all divine and only
appeared as a man.
In fact, that is clearly NOT Christian teaching. That is heresy.
"He was tempted in all ways like any other man, yet He remained
without sin.
There are Christians who felt that Jesus of Nazareth was 100% man and that
at the moment of baptism, was possessed by Christ and at the moment of
death, was abandoned by Christ (why have you forsaken me theory)
That is also clearly not Christian teaching, as He had enough of God's
Holy Spirit in Him at the tender age of 12 (at His barmitzpha), that
He "confounded the elders" with His intimate knowledge of God's Word
(He ought to know it intimately; He wrote it)
There are Christians who ascribe to the idea that the Jewish Father is a
sub-God in control of the domain of our cosmos and that Jesus comes from a
higher creator God, the true Father, to liberate us from the wrath of the
god of our universe.
That smacks of Mormonism, which again is not "Christian."
The Bible is clear in those issues.
I am none of these, however :p
Then there are the Roman Catholics, the protestants, the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the Orthodox, the Mormons.
On the above list, only the "protestants" (and non-Roman Catholic
born-again Christians), and the Orthodox are Christians.
Though many will say half these groups aren't really Christian, I believe
in one thing:
We all look to Jesus Christ as our personal lord and savior, all loving,
all forgiving.
For the Mormon and the Jehovah's Witness, Jesus Christ is a mere
angel, a created being. Therefore, those two religions alone do not
qualify to be called "Christian."
Regardless of mistakes we may make in interpreting his
teachings, we will be forgiven. We are human and God's will is perfect.
We cannot be forgiven if we are not born again to begin with.
The Mormon, the Mason, the Jehovah's Witness, and the Roman Catholic
(I believe also the Orthodox) flatly REJECT being born again. (John 3,
"You must be born again!")
jw
snip
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| User: "Grane" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
13 Feb 2005 04:39:09 PM |
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In article <26bp01p0gjg67el46mpde8d5ve03nhmhcl@4ax.com>, j w<no>@yahoo.com
wrote:
The Mormon, the Mason, the Jehovah's Witness, and the Roman Catholic
(I believe also the Orthodox) flatly REJECT being born again. (John 3,
"You must be born again!")
jw
What went wrong in your case?
Stillborn
Abortion
bungled forceps delivery
He who is born again must needs grow up again
(At least try, sonny!)
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| User: "j" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
11 Feb 2005 07:09:21 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 04:38:09 -0500, "Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com>
wrote:
copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpou7a$knu$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xCSvd.1662$1Y6.309@fe12.lga...
Are you afraid to talk to God directly ?
Why do you make your own style ?
Follow Christ.
What makes you think that because I have my own style of prayer (the way I
word my sentences, the way I sit, the way I meditate, the way I pause, the
way I kneel, etc.) I don't go to God directly?
Asking other people to go to God with me isn't turning away from God.
In our natural movements(like walking while praying), It's okay.
But praying to the dead isnot Christian way.
You can't find any bible ref. that ask you to do, nor used asan example that
God's people did it.
Also, a large part of my prayer-time is spent in silent meditation and
writing. I write many of my prayers down and tape them around my room in
various unnoticable places (within my wardrobe or behind my door). I also
like to use a candle when I can, to symbolize my prayer going to God as
the heat and smoke from the candle travels upward. I like to meditate
through song, I like to pray that God visits me in dreams so I can be with
Him.
I have my own way and style of prayer which is much different than yours.
It has to be. We are two entirely different people. If our style of
prayer were the same, we would be the same person, but God has made us as
individuals.
You know that's not what we're talking about.
There are Christians who feel that Jesus Christ was all divine and only
appeared as a man.
There are Christians who felt that Jesus of Nazareth was 100% man and that
at the moment of baptism, was possessed by Christ and at the moment of
death, was abandoned by Christ (why have you forsaken me theory)
There are Christians who ascribe to the idea that the Jewish Father is a
sub-God in control of the domain of our cosmos and that Jesus comes from a
higher creator God, the true Father, to liberate us from the wrath of the
god of our universe.
The Bible is clear in those issues.
I am none of these, however :p
Then there are the Roman Catholics, the protestants, the Jehovah's
Witnesses, the Orthodox, the Mormons.
Though many will say half these groups aren't really Christian, I believe
in one thing:
We all look to Jesus Christ as our personal lord and savior, all loving,
all forgiving. Regardless of mistakes we may make in interpreting his
teachings, we will be forgiven. We are human and God's will is perfect.
We can't interpret it perfectly because we are imperfect. We are all
bound to make mistakes.
The Holy Spirit will help us understand the scriptures.
There are basic teachings that a true believer should have.
There are doctrines that even we misunderstood sometimes, our being the
child of God is still there because of that basic bible teachings (like one
must believe in God).
Let me tell you about a young man named Francesco.
Francesco (or Francis) was a child of Assisi. He was proud, arrogant,
strong, young, lustful. He went off to war, however, sent by his father
and governor in Assisi. When he returned, he was sick with fever. The
fever broke and people thought him mad because he liked to look at flowers
and talk to birds and sing songs all day.
However, one day he was awakened by a vision from Christ. He realized
that the life he was living wasn't satisfying him anymore. He wanted to
run through fields, climb mountains, swim rivers without shoes and clothes
and material possessions holding him down. This boy, Francis, took off
the clothes from his back and gave them to his father infront of the whole
town. He walked out of the town naked and dedicated himself to rebuilding
churches and sacred ruins around assisi. He took on a vow of celibacy and
poverty, and cared for the poor, creating a community of friends who took
the same vow and chose to help the poor.
One day, however, his church was burned down by soldiers from the bishops
palace. He was devistated. He didn't know what he did wrong.
He went to Pope Innocent III, wondering if he made a mistake due to
presumption. You know what Pope Innocent III did? He called Francis to
his side and smiled at him. "Francesco, Francesco," he said in a calm and
tranquil voice. "Mistakes will be forgiven. You have brought me dear,
dear children in Christ [referring to Francis' followers and friends]. We
have been encrusted with riches and power, yet you... in all your
poverty.... put us to shame." He granted Francis leave to preacing
repentance everywhere. Before leaving Rome, they received the
ecclesiastical tonsure. They also recieved great blessings from Pope
Innocent III. Some even say that the pope kissed Francis' foot, a gesture
of great respect and honor.
Whatever it be, I always remember the words "Mistakes will be forgiven".
Regardless of whether or not we misinterpret scritpure (for none of us can
truly be sure that we are interpreting it perfectly) mistakes will be
forgiven, for our God is a God of forgivness and mercy.
God will forgive His childrens if they seek forgiveness.
The question is, who are God's children & how do a person became one?
You and I are one in the same body, that being of Christ. We both trust
Him above all things, as our Lord and Savior. Why, then, can't we look
beyond our differences in certain traditions and unite together as
companions and brothers in Christ?
-Robert
I was born a catholic, got involved in some RCC programs like curcillo.
Until I read the bible myself. Found out that I can ask God directly, and
pryed to Him personally.
For the first time, I asked Him questions from my heart. I prayed the whole
night asking & praising Him without saying that repeated prayers. Until I
fall asleep.
Next morning, it's different. I can see the Bible clearly. My questions
answered thru the Bible.
My life changed. Now I asked Him & consult the Bible for the truth.
On these points, CB and I are in total agreement.
jw
I just wish that you do too.
Ask Him to come onto you life. May He be the Lord of your life.
For you: John 1:12
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| User: "CB" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 06:48:57 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:31:37 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
Again your sola scriptura attitude isn't justified. Scripture is
incomplete: It says so itself.
Amazing how you never quote Scripture.
-RS
"At least when right-wingers rant, there's a point."
Ann Coulter
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 07:42:13 PM |
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I did quote scripture. I am not, however, going to requote it and requote
it just so you can keep ignoring it. Here it is anyhow:
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be
described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the
books that would be written.
-RS
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| User: "CB" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 10:21:17 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:13 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
I did quote scripture. I am not, however, going to requote it and requote
it just so you can keep ignoring it. Here it is anyhow:
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be
described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the
books that would be written.
I know that Scripture quite well.
That is the Scripture that catholics use to try to prove their fase doctrines.
The rcc makes up stuff and then quote that Scripture to try to justify it.
BTW, do you know what time of the day Jesus went to the bathroom?
Or maybe He didn't have to go at all?
Surely you need to know.
Just quote that Scripture.
using that Scripture to prove your false doctrines is pure idiocy.
-RS
"At least when right-wingers rant, there's a point."
Ann Coulter
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| User: "Falcon" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 09:43:16 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:42:13 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
I did quote scripture. I am not, however, going to requote it and requote
it just so you can keep ignoring it. Here it is anyhow:
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be
described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the
books that would be written.
John pretty well talks about this a little earlier.
John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of
his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are
written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Is it your assertion that not enough was written? It seems that John
was satisfied that his writing did not need anything else. In fact
he made a point of saying more was not written but what he gave was
what was needed. Not "almost enough". I am not sure why you think
anything not written makes scripture incomplete. The first testament
omits a lot of things as well yet we do not see Yeshua saying it was
not complete because it did not have everything possible written. In
fact we see Yeshua using scripture, not using "It was not written,
but..."
Ciao,
Falcon
--
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 09:01:15 PM |
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"Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven
to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in
passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10-11. In fact, he has not, because he at
times has given it-for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with
Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What
God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There
shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an
offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a
sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . .
For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to
soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not
allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like
me from among you, from your brethren-him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10-15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of
gaining information; one is to look to God's prophets instead. Thus one is
not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern
the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead
speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother's grave, "Mom,
please pray to Jesus for me; I'm having a real problem right now." The
difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is
an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble
request for a loved one to pray to God on one's behalf. "
http://www.catholic.com
As for Luke 11:1-4 and your "dead saints" comment, I fail to understand
protestant's and fundamentalists' argument that when your body dies, you
die. It is a common understanding that in Christ, there is no death.
Physical death occurs but our bodies are only our bodies. After our bodies
die, we remain alive and resume our path to heaven. In fact, death is
actually the beginning of our life. There is abundant proof, as well, that
those who are in heaven can hear us. There is no scriptural proof, however,
that those in heaven cannot hear us.
Those who are alive in heaven can hear us, no where is it written that they
can't. Therefore to ask them for intercession isn't wrong: They aren't
dead. It is merely calling to them and asking them to pray for us, just as
one could ask his brother or sister next to him to pray for him.
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 09:33:44 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpo9e4$hsd$1@news3.bu.edu...
....
As for Luke 11:1-4 and your "dead saints" comment, I fail to understand
protestant's and fundamentalists' argument that when your body dies, you
die. It is a common understanding that in Christ, there is no death.
Physical death occurs but our bodies are only our bodies. After our
bodies die, we remain alive and resume our path to heaven. In fact, death
is actually the beginning of our life. There is abundant proof, as well,
that those who are in heaven can hear us. There is no scriptural proof,
however, that those in heaven cannot hear us.
Those who are alive in heaven can hear us, no where is it written that
they can't. Therefore to ask them for intercession isn't wrong: They
aren't dead. It is merely calling to them and asking them to pray for us,
just as one could ask his brother or sister next to him to pray for him.
When Jesus' disciples asked him how they were to pray, Jesus didn't tell
them to consult dead "saints" nor to pray to any persons who died here on
Earth.
Never did they (OT Christians) practice the same.
He told them to pray directly to God, their Father (Luke 11:1-4).
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 10:15:47 PM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mlOvd.1632$5Z5.1450@fe12.lga...
When Jesus' disciples asked him how they were to pray, Jesus didn't tell
them to consult dead "saints" nor to pray to any persons who died here on
Earth.
Never did they (OT Christians) practice the same.
Jesus told them how they should pray to God. You have it in your mind that
"prayer" is something meant for God alone. Look up other definitions of the
word "prayer". It means "to petition" in essence.
Also, to make your argument valid, Jesus would have had to say "Pray to the
Father and the Father alone, do not look to anyone else for petitions and do
not pray for eachother." He didn't say this at all.
As for your NEver did they (OT Christians) practice the same... that just
proves how much of a neophyte you really are. You demonstrate a level of
ineptitude which borders on the imbecilic.
There were no Old Testament Christians. There were, essentially, no
christians until the former organization of the canon documents into the
bible cerca 200CE
There were, however, followers of Christ who were Jewish, who held to the
septuigent or hebrew Torah. For the most part, however, from 50-100CE, the
majority of followers of the Christ-movement were gentiles in the Diaspora.
We do not know what they practiced. It is not written, and many of the
documents that we do have were copied over thousands of times. Look for the
origins of the tradition in the Gentile communities, however (who sincerely
upheld ancestor worship (giving honor to those who have gone before them for
their wisdom and example they gave).
Christianity is much more complex than you are making it out to be. It is
entwined in history lost to us, and we can never fully understand its
origins or the complexity of the teachings if we remove from antiquity these
teachings. Remember that when these documents were being written, they
weren't being written to us, but to ancient Gentile and Jewish communities
in languages that are so far lost to us that we can hardly comprehend their
basic lifestyle.
Your "consulting dead saints" argument is then flawed. The saints aren't
dead, they are very much alive in Christ. When we ask them to pray for us,
we don't consult with them. to consult is to seek advice or information
from (necromancy if done to those who have passed on). To consult is to
exchange views, to confer in a dialogue. When we ask the saints in heaven
to pray for us, we don't inquire for information or advice, we open a
monologue and simply state "Pray for me".
You don't even know the meaning of the words you are using, and you are
using them incorrectly. If you are going to argue against what the Catholic
Church teaches, at least know what we teach. Don't change our doctrines and
creeds to fit your argument. In doing so you aren't criticizing what Roman
Catholicism is... you are criticizing what you, in your ineptitude, believe
Roman Catholicism to be.
-RS
He told them to pray directly to God, their Father (Luke 11:1-4).
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
14 Dec 2004 10:35:11 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpodpu$gv2$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mlOvd.1632$5Z5.1450@fe12.lga...
When Jesus' disciples asked him how they were to pray, Jesus didn't tell
them to consult dead "saints" nor to pray to any persons who died here on
Earth.
Never did they (OT Christians) practice the same.
Jesus told them how they should pray to God. You have it in your mind
that "prayer" is something meant for God alone. Look up other definitions
of the word "prayer". It means "to petition" in essence.
------------------------
Lu:11:1: And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place,
when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray,
as John also taught his disciples.
* "teach us to pray"* - they ask Him how to pray.
Lu:11:2: And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in
heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in
heaven, so in earth.
*"when ye pray"* -Pray to God alone.
------------------------
Also, to make your argument valid, Jesus would have had to say "Pray to
the Father and the Father alone, do not look to anyone else for petitions
and do not pray for eachother." He didn't say this at all.
So you're just inventing your own even God didn't told you to do so, and
trying to be different from those true NT christians.
As for your NEver did they (OT Christians) practice the same... that just
proves how much of a neophyte you really are. You demonstrate a level of
ineptitude which borders on the imbecilic.
So you admit that you're not the same christian as those in the NT.
Okay.
There were no Old Testament Christians. There were, essentially, no
christians until the former organization of the canon documents into the
bible cerca 200CE
Typo error... NT.
There were, however, followers of Christ who were Jewish, who held to the
septuigent or hebrew Torah. For the most part, however, from 50-100CE,
the majority of followers of the Christ-movement were gentiles in the
Diaspora. We do not know what they practiced. It is not written, and many
of the documents that we do have were copied over thousands of times.
Look for the origins of the tradition in the Gentile communities, however
(who sincerely upheld ancestor worship (giving honor to those who have
gone before them for their wisdom and example they gave).
Christianity is much more complex than you are making it out to be. It is
entwined in history lost to us, and we can never fully understand its
origins or the complexity of the teachings if we remove from antiquity
these teachings. Remember that when these documents were being written,
they weren't being written to us, but to ancient Gentile and Jewish
communities in languages that are so far lost to us that we can hardly
comprehend their basic lifestyle.
Read the Bible, and ask God to teach you.
....
You don't even know the meaning of the words you are using, and you are
using them incorrectly. If you are going to argue against what the
Catholic Church teaches, at least know what we teach. Don't change our
doctrines and creeds to fit your argument. In doing so you aren't
criticizing what Roman Catholicism is... you are criticizing what you, in
your ineptitude, believe Roman Catholicism to be.
The Bible is telling you not me.
He told them to pray directly to God, their Father (Luke 11:1-4).
.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 01:25:47 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZePvd.1641$vu6.730@fe12.lga...
So you're just inventing your own even God didn't told you to do so, and
trying to be different from those true NT christians.
Inventing my own what? Prayers? Yes. Jesus gave us an outline of how we
should pray when praying to our heavenly Father. Asking the saints in
heaven to pray for me isn't wrong, nor is it in violation of what Christ
instructed us to do. It isn't wrong to ask others to pray for you. Since
they are in heaven, they are closer to the Father than I am (they are
physically with Him, I am with Him in spirit). But when I pray, I pray from
my heart. I use the Lord's prayer as an outline for it, but I don't always
mimic it word for word if I have some intention I wish to bring to our
Father.
Again, there are no NT christians.
So you admit that you're not the same christian as those in the NT.
Okay.
No, I am saying that you demonstrate a level of ineptitude which borders on
the imbecilic. There are no NT Christians and there certainly aren't any OT
Christians. There are those who trusted in the coming of the messiah in the
OT. They aren't Christians, however, they are Jews hoping in the coming of
the messiah. As for the apostles of Jesus, they too are jews or gentiles.
They happen to know the messiah but even after Christ ascends into heaven,
they are still Jews and Gentiles.
Read the Bible, and ask God to teach you.
You act as though you are learned enough to teach scripture. What are your
qualifications in this? I do read the bible, most likely more so than you
do. I study it deeply in regards to its original historical context as well
as linguistic context as best I can, with the guidance of renound religious
scholars and clergy members who have studied and recieved masters in
divinity, theology, ministry, and religious studies.
I am careful when I analyze scripture because I know there is only one true
way to analyze it, God's way. I know if I am doing something which is in
violation of scripture. I am a sinner, I am not afraid to anounce that to
the world. With the help and guidance of my mentors, however, I am able to
extrapolate from scripture the true message of Christ and the teachings of
the apostles and how they reflect on a path to Jesus Christ in the modern
sense.
He told them to pray directly to God, their Father (Luke 11:1-4).
Correction, read it again in context: They asked him how they should pray.
He said "Pray like this..." and then recited the Lord's Prayer. He didn't
say "Pray directly to God, the Father." That is what you are interpreting
it to mean.
Lord, teach us to pray just as John taught his disciples.
"When you pray, say:
Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our
daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we oureslves asl forgive everyone who
is indebted to us. Lead us not into temptation."
The Lord then turns to them and says: (STILL A PART OF HOW TO PRAY)
<short parable>
10: For everyone who asks, recieves; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who
knocks, it will be opened.
<another short parable>
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how
much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask
Him?"
For everyone who asks, recieves!
It is the desire of my heart that the saints in heaven join with me in my
prayer intentions to our Heavenly Father. Surely it isn't a desire which
will be cast away unanswers. It is something so small. Lord, you have the
power to let these saints hear my prayers to to pray for me. You who have
opened my spirit to light, open my heart to the guidance and wisdom the
saints who have gone before me have to offer.
That is the content of my heart in reference to inquiring the saints in
heaven to pray for me. I would so much as turn to a brother or sister in
Christ on earth and ask them to pray for me just as I would lift up to the
saints in heaven my intentions to be prayed for. It isn't necromancy, it
isn't taking away from God, it is joining with the saints and angels in
heaven in common worship of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is in
union with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Consulting the dead. |
15 Dec 2004 02:22:25 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpoou6$prc$1@news3.bu.edu...
"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZePvd.1641$vu6.730@fe12.lga...
So you're just inventing your own even God didn't told you to do so, and
trying to be different from those true NT christians.
Inventing my own what? Prayers?
Prayers to the dead(physically), your own teaching and not God's.
Yes. Jesus gave us an outline of how we should pray when praying to our
heavenly Father. Asking the saints in heaven to pray for me isn't wrong,
nor is it in violation of what Christ instructed us to do. It isn't wrong
to ask others to pray for you. Since they are in heaven, they are closer
to the Father than I am (they are physically with Him, I am with Him in
spirit). But when I pray, I pray from my heart. I use the Lord's prayer
as an outline for it, but I don't always mimic it word for word if I have
some intention I wish to bring to our Father.
*Don't be afraid to pray to Jesus. Don't make your own way.
"Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart;
and you will find rest for yourselves." (Matthew 11:28-29)
*So we are not to fear coming to Jesus. He may be our Judge, but he is also
our Savior.
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject
anyone who comes to me... (John 6:37)
Again, there are no NT christians.
Read this.
--------------------------
Acts11:26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it
came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church,
and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in
Antioch.
Acts26:28: Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a
Christian.
1Pet.4:16: Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but
let him glorify God on this behalf.
------------------------
So you admit that you're not the same christian as those in the NT.
Okay.
No, I am saying that you demonstrate a level of ineptitude which borders
on the imbecilic. There are no NT Christians and there certainly aren't
any OT Christians. There are those who trusted in the coming of the
messiah in the OT. They aren't Christians, however, they are Jews hoping
in the coming of the messiah. As for the apostles of Jesus, they too are
jews or gentiles. They happen to know the messiah but even after Christ
ascends into heaven, they are still Jews and Gentiles.
That's why you're different. Wow.
Read the Bible, and ask God to teach you.
You act as though you are learned enough to teach scripture. What are
your qualifications in this? I do read the bible, most likely more so
than you do. I study it deeply in regards to its original historical
context as well as linguistic context as best I can, with the guidance of
renound religious scholars and clergy members who have studied and
recieved masters in divinity, theology, ministry, and religious studies.
I am careful when I analyze scripture because I know there is only one
true way to analyze it, God's way. I know if I am doing something which
is in violation of scripture. I am a sinner, I am not afraid to anounce
that to the world. With the help and guidance of my mentors, however, I
am able to extrapolate from scripture the true message of Christ and the
teachings of the apostles and how they reflect on a path to Jesus Christ
in the modern sense.
Reading more doesn't mean that you will understand it.
This is my teacher:
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name-he will
teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. (John 14:26)
He told them to pray directly to God, their Father (Luke 11:1-4).
Correction, read it again in context: They asked him how they should
pray. He said "Pray like this..." and then recited the Lord's Prayer. He
didn't say "Pray directly to God, the Father." That is what you are
interpreting it to mean.
You mean you don't know that, that prayer points directly to God?
That's a clear instruction. And That's how you should pray. Not pray to(or
through) your dead.
So clear.
Lord, teach us to pray just as John taught his disciples.
"When you pray, say:
Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our
daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we oureslves asl forgive everyone
who is indebted to us. Lead us not into temptation."
The Lord then turns to them and says: (STILL A PART OF HOW TO PRAY)
<short parable>
10: For everyone who asks, recieves; and he who seeks, finds; and to him
who knocks, it will be opened.
<another short parable>
That's HOW you pray. Don't make your own style.
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how
much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask
Him?"
For everyone who asks, recieves!
See ? I told you.
It is the desire of my heart that the saints in heaven join with me in my
prayer intentions to our Heavenly Father. Surely it isn't a desire which
will be cast away unanswers. It is something so small. Lord, you have
the power to let these saints hear my prayers to to pray for me. You who
have opened my spirit to light, open my heart to the guidance and wisdom
the saints who have gone before me have to offer.
And you don't listen to Jesus. You just follow your own desire.
That is the content of my heart in reference to inquiring the saints in
heaven to pray for me. I would so much as turn to a brother or sister in
Christ on earth and ask them to pray for me just as I would lift up to the
saints in heaven my intentions to be prayed for. It isn't necromancy, it
isn't taking away from God, it is joining with the saints and angels in
heaven in common worship of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who is in
union with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Your own personal style. Don't be afraid to pray directly to God. That's HOW
you should pray.
The Apostles and followers NEVER prayed to the dead.
Why should you follow your own desire and not God?
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Clearing a misunderstanding |
15 Dec 2004 02:33:11 AM |
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I am far too tired to carry this on now. I actually should have been
studying for final exams :0
Anyhow, to clarify:
You claim I pray to the dead. In your sense of the term, prayer is
something between you and God and no one else. That is admirable. In the
teachings of the Catholic Church, however, prayer (just as worship) is
different than the modern definition.
To pray to is to petition to or to give to.
In your sense of the term, I do not pray to saints.
I merely ask saints to pray for me (see my post above that says "please
read".
As for my own personal style, I do agree that I have my own personal way to
prayer, my way of approaching God that is inspired by the Holy Spirit but
unique to me. The way I pray to Him is different than the way you pray to
Him. It has to be, we are different people. Don't assume, however, that
because I petition to saints that I do not go to Jesus. In fact, 100% of my
petitions I bring to God. About 5% of them I ask people (whether the saints
in heaven or my friends around me) to pray for as well for me. I ask them
to intercede for me, to take my petitions as their own. That, I feel, not
only strengthens my bond with that person, but helps me to humble myself.
It takes humility and trust to go to someone with a problem and to ask them
to pray for you, especially someone who is already in Heaven with our Lord.
I am not afraid to pray directly to God, that is how I pray. The thing that
is different about our faith is that you feel those who have passed on
before us are dead. I see them as perfectly well and alive, more alive than
I am right now at least :p. In all things, however, I follow the desires of
God. I have done things that are wrong in the past and God has let me know.
There has never been a doubt in my mind, however, that the way I pray to God
and the way I dedicate myself to the teachings of the Church is wrong. I
know it is right because no Church doctrine has ever led me further away
from God. Church doctrine and creed has only helped me to become one with
Him as well as to unite with the whole Church (in heaven and in earth) in
glorious worship of our Heavenly Father.
Join with me then, brother, and set aside our differences in faith for the
betterment of the kingdom and glory of God.
:D
-RS
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding |
15 Dec 2004 03:10:35 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:cpossi$f0v$1@news3.bu.edu...
I am far too tired to carry this on now. I actually should have been
studying for final exams :0
Anyhow, to clarify:
You claim I pray to the dead. In your sense of the term, prayer is
something between you and God and no one else. That is admirable. In the
teachings of the Catholic Church, however, prayer (just as worship) is
different than the modern definition.
Modernization that conflicts us to the original truth is wrong.
To pray to is to petition to or to give to.
In your sense of the term, I do not pray to saints.
I merely ask saints to pray for me (see my post above that says "please
read".
Okay. You don't pray but ask.
Did Jesus or His followers asks a dead person?
Did God told us to do so?
Read the NT and see if any christians there did what you're doing. Wonder
why?
God that is inspired by the Holy Spirit but unique to me. The way I pray
to Him is different than the way you pray to Him. It has to be, we are
different people. Don't assume, however, that because I petition to saints
that I do not go to Jesus. In fact, 100% of my petitions I bring to God.
About 5% of them I ask people (whether the saints in heaven or my friends
around me) to pray for as well for me. I ask them to intercede for me, to
take my petitions as their own. That, I feel, not only strengthens my bond
with that person, but helps me to humble myself. It takes humility and
trust to go to someone with a problem and to ask them to pray for you,
especially someone who is already in Heaven with our Lord.
I am not afraid to pray directly to God, that is how I pray. The thing
that is different about our faith is that you feel those who have passed
on before us are dead. I see them as perfectly well and alive, more alive
than I am right now at least :p. In all things, however, I follow the
desires of God. I have done things that are wrong in the past and God has
let me know. There has never been a doubt in my mind, however, that the
way I pray to God and the way I dedicate myself to the teachings of the
Church is wrong. I know it is right because no Church doctrine has ever
led me further away from God. Church doctrine and creed has only helped
me to become one with Him as well as to unite with the whole Church (in
heaven and in earth) in glorious worship of our Heavenly Father.
Join with me then, brother, and set aside our differences in faith for the
betterment of the kingdom and glory of God.
The bible can be use for corrections of wrong teachings.
And if what you do in relation to God is outside Bible teachings, then it is
wrong.
I just wish that you open your heart and listen to what the bible says and
not what other people or leader said.
May the blessings of God & correct understanding be upon you.
This is for you: (Jer 33:3)
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Clearing a misunderstanding |
15 Dec 2004 03:38:29 AM |
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"Streamer" <Stream_Haze@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ahTvd.1666$xu.1438@fe12.lga...
Modernization that conflicts us to the original truth is wrong.
You forget, then, that it is your definition that was modernized. Church
doctrine has been steady and unwavering.
Okay. You don't pray but ask.
Did Jesus or His followers asks a dead person?
Jesus spoke directly to His father. Jesus had the power to answer prayers.
Why, then, would he pray to those whom He is saving?
As for the apostles in antiquity, little is known other than what they wrote
down. Many of their prayers are unknown, for their lives aren't explained
in much detail (only their mission).
As for the followers of Christ, millions (if not billions) have asked for
the intercession of the saints. Remember that we are followers of Christ,
and there have been followers before us. My asking the saints to join me in
prayer doesn't pull me further away from Christ, it br | | | | | | | | | |
