Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Hieron"
Date:	29 Mar 2005 08:37:27 PM
Object:	Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the first
followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services differently
from what is commanded in the Torah.
__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing animal
sacrifices after they were born again.
Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being totally
ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is coming
from?
Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.
Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?
Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.
Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.
Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________
What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?
--
Hieron
.

User: "cindys"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	29 Mar 2005 09:57:08 PM

"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
news:3auhn4F5q911kU1@individual.net...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the first
followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services differently
from what is commanded in the Torah.

__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing animal
sacrifices after they were born again.

Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being totally
ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is coming
from?

Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

------------------
The temple was under the control of the Romans. The high priests, who were
being appointed by the Romans were tzaddokim (Sadducees), who were
considered heretics. With respect to the "Galilean rabbi," I know Christians
don't want to hear this, but assuming there was such a person as Jesus, he
was NOT a rabbi. He was a heretic who transgressed the law and was regarded
as such by all the Jews with the exception of his small band of followers.
Whether you like it or not, the oral law IS Judaism, just as much as the
written law, and it always has been. And for a Jew to transgress the oral
law is a sin, and claiming it to be invalid is heresy. The Sadduccees'
position was that only the written law was valid, and that's why they were
regarded as heretics. It is a fact that in Judaism, the oral law has equal
weight to the written law, and it always has. This is not a new idea. This
was not a new idea 2000 years ago either. The oral law has worked in
conjunction with the written law since Moses received the torah on Sinai.
Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written law is
not Judaism but a different religion. And so, every time you claim that
Jesus had every *right* to transgress the Sabbath, you are wrong. It was
flouting the Jewish law that was accepted by all as defining what is or
isn't Judaism. In answer to the original question, since the Romans were
controlling the temple and since Jesus was a threat to them, it is my
opinion, that it is highly unlikely that they (either the Romans or the
priests, who were Roman puppets) would have treated any of his followers
leniently or made any exceptions for them at all. Just the opposite.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.

User: "cindys"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	29 Mar 2005 10:01:12 PM

"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osp2e.112238$vK5.77470@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
snip

Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written law is
not Judaism but a different religion.

-----
Typo correction:
The above line should have read "Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the
validity of *either the written or the oral law* is not Judaism but a
different religion."
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	30 Mar 2005 07:54:53 AM

"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osp2e.112238$vK5.77470@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
news:3auhn4F5q911kU1@individual.net...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the first
followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services differently
from what is commanded in the Torah.

__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing animal
sacrifices after they were born again.

Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being totally
ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is coming
from?

Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

------------------
The temple was under the control of the Romans. The high priests, who were
being appointed by the Romans were tzaddokim (Sadducees), who were
considered heretics. With respect to the "Galilean rabbi," I know
Christians
don't want to hear this, but assuming there was such a person as Jesus, he
was NOT a rabbi. He was a heretic who transgressed the law and was
regarded
as such by all the Jews with the exception of his small band of followers.
Whether you like it or not, the oral law IS Judaism, just as much as the
written law, and it always has been. And for a Jew to transgress the oral
law is a sin, and claiming it to be invalid is heresy. The Sadduccees'
position was that only the written law was valid, and that's why they were
regarded as heretics. It is a fact that in Judaism, the oral law has equal
weight to the written law, and it always has. This is not a new idea. This
was not a new idea 2000 years ago either. The oral law has worked in
conjunction with the written law since Moses received the torah on Sinai.
Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written law is
not Judaism but a different religion. And so, every time you claim that
Jesus had every *right* to transgress the Sabbath, you are wrong. It was
flouting the Jewish law that was accepted by all as defining what is or
isn't Judaism. In answer to the original question, since the Romans were
controlling the temple and since Jesus was a threat to them, it is my
opinion, that it is highly unlikely that they (either the Romans or the
priests, who were Roman puppets) would have treated any of his followers
leniently or made any exceptions for them at all. Just the opposite.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

The oral law has worked in
conjunction with the written law since Moses received the torah on Sinai.
Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written law is
not Judaism but a different religion.
Isaiah 29;
13. Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near to Me with
their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far
from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14. Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people,
a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall
perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.''
Isaiah is a heretic according to you.. well that explains why our fathers
killed him I guess.. the result of your Judaism? our whole history no rest
from war or turmoil.. the result of the oral law being written down in the
1st century bce? less than 100 years later 1900 years of exile << yep
Judaism works never has and that's the problem here.. truth fails men
without wisdom leading our people into 1900 years of destruction.. but YHVH
warned us we refused to listen;
8. Then the word of the Lord came to Zechariah, saying,
9. "Thus says the Lord of hosts: `Execute true justice, show mercy and
compassion everyone to his brother.
10. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. Let
none of you plan evil in his heart against his brother.'
11. "But they refused to heed, shrugged their shoulders, and stopped their
ears so that they could not hear.
12. "Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and
the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former
prophets. Thus great wrath came from the Lord of hosts.
13. "Therefore it happened, that just as He proclaimed and they would not
hear, so they called out and I would not listen,'' says the Lord of hosts.
14. "But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations which
they had not known. Thus the land became desolate after them, so that no one
passed through or returned; for they made the pleasant land desolate.''
this prophecy was so sure that Zechariah received it in past tense
12. "Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and
the words which the Lord of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former
prophets. Thus great wrath came from the Lord of hosts.
13. "Therefore it happened, that just as He proclaimed and they would not
hear, so they called out and I would not listen,'' says the Lord of hosts.
Yep Judaism been really right our people have been.. what's the above say?
major problem one,, THE LEADERS DID NOT SEE THE ORAL LAW OF THE PROPHETS who
are the oral law,, hum oral law from Sinai? next generation read judges,
rebelled and rebelled and rebelled and rebelled and and
shall I continue? who did the prophets go to? Kings.. << gone for 400 years
prior to the 1st century and... THE SAGES.. what's does Jeremiah say by YHVH
about the sages and scribes..
Jeremiah 8 yet another heretical Jew according to Cindy,, and sure our
fathers thought so as well and beat him and threw him into prison, wow and
to think they had the oral law too it really made them wise!!
7. "Even the stork in the heavens knows her appointed times; and the
turtledove, the swift, and the swallow observe the time of their coming. But
My people do not know the judgment of the Lord.
8. "How can you say, `We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
9. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken. Behold, they
have rejected the word of the Lord; so what wisdom do they have?
Hum I guess Jeremiah is a liar,, all of Judaism is not Judaism cept The
Remnant of The Pharisees,. later known as Rabbis.. yep I see that Hashem
MADE A GREAT NATION OUT OF THEM.. I mean look at all the 1900 years of that
great city and Temple.. oh.. burnt to the ground in 70 still has not been
rebuilt..
I wonder if YHVH was willing to make agreat nation out of MOSES,, and
destroy the rest of our people hum what did the leaders do so bad in the
first century I wonder?
Hum what not take these "righteous Rabbis" and make a great nation out of
them? I see GOD changed although He says he never changes right?
Judaism = you are not of the school of The Pharisees you are not a Jew.. The
SADDUCEES had and have every right if not more so to be Jews, The Rabbis
Hijacked Judaism invented an Oral Law from Oral Tradition in which YHVH by
ISAIAH says is not from HIM.. wrote down this oral law thus adding Torah..
but I guess none of the curses of Moses came upon them errr.
1900 of bliss and peace? NO
do I sound harsh? you bet because THE GLORY OF YHVH they took from the poor
of the flock they fed themselves in their high homes while the people in
Rome suffered,
better learn history a bit more, The Pharisees were as every bit corrupted
if not more so than The Sadducees.. they "would never burn their food
publically"and taught that only a select few cold learn Torah
THEY TOOK YHVH FROM HIS PEOPLE as YHVH said to them "REMOVE YOU EXACTIONS
FROM MY PEOPLE" but they would not hear,, the result? YHVH kept HIS WORD of
evil.
1900 years still have not learned the lesson therefore says YHVH ELOHIM;
BE IN PAIN ISRAEL LIKE A WOMAN IN TRAVAIL ABOUT TO GIVE BIRTH THEN AND ONLY
THEN I WILL DELIVER YOU WHEN I BREAK YOU OF YOUR WAYS AND BEND YOU FOR ME
ONLY THEN I WILL RESTORE YOU AND I WILL AGAIN BE YOUR ELOHIM AND YOU SHALL
BE MY PEOPLE IN TRUTH AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS,,
BUT MY PEOPLE IN WHOM MY LAW IS ON THEIR HEARTS NOW THEM SHALL I MAGNIFY..
BUT THE ARROGANT AND PRIDEFUL I AM AGAINST AND THOSE I SHALL BEND UNTIL THEY
BREAK THEMSELVES OF IT THEN I WILL BE THEIR MIGHTY ONE AND THEN THEY SHALL
NO MORE BE PUFFED UP OVER MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, I AM YHVH.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	30 Mar 2005 07:21:29 AM

"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:osp2e.112238$vK5.77470@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
news:3auhn4F5q911kU1@individual.net...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the first
followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services differently
from what is commanded in the Torah.

__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing animal
sacrifices after they were born again.

Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being totally
ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is coming
from?

Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

------------------
The temple was under the control of the Romans. The high priests, who were
being appointed by the Romans were tzaddokim (Sadducees), who were
considered heretics. With respect to the "Galilean rabbi," I know
Christians
don't want to hear this, but assuming there was such a person as Jesus, he
was NOT a rabbi. He was a heretic who transgressed the law and was
regarded
as such by all the Jews with the exception of his small band of followers.
Whether you like it or not, the oral law IS Judaism, just as much as the
written law, and it always has been. And for a Jew to transgress the oral
law is a sin, and claiming it to be invalid is heresy. The Sadduccees'
position was that only the written law was valid, and that's why they were
regarded as heretics. It is a fact that in Judaism, the oral law has equal
weight to the written law, and it always has. This is not a new idea. This
was not a new idea 2000 years ago either. The oral law has worked in
conjunction with the written law since Moses received the torah on Sinai.
Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written law is
not Judaism but a different religion. And so, every time you claim that
Jesus had every *right* to transgress the Sabbath, you are wrong. It was
flouting the Jewish law that was accepted by all as defining what is or
isn't Judaism. In answer to the original question, since the Romans were
controlling the temple and since Jesus was a threat to them, it is my
opinion, that it is highly unlikely that they (either the Romans or the
priests, who were Roman puppets) would have treated any of his followers
leniently or made any exceptions for them at all. Just the opposite.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

of his small band of followers.

Whether you like it or not, the oral law IS Judaism, just as much as the
written law, and it always has been.
whether you like it or not our relationship with YHVH has and always was
one of no peace and constant wars and turmoil
whether you like it or not this indicates a problem.. Judaism and the oral
Law = precepts of men I guess Isaiah was a Christian apostate Jew.. Sure
Yeshua broke the Oral Halacah.. He did not break the law truly refer to
Isaiah "He was counted as a transgressor" Hum you think he is a
transgressor, man oh man you are going to be very ashamed eventually at
your words here.
hum in this case 3+3 = 9
Jews = always had a bad relationship with YHVH from the start Jews always
did things as you say =2+2 =4
blessing? never curses? always+ yep we do and did things right. just ask the
Rabbis over 1900 years of total sufferings as a people them getting it the
worse of all.. didn't obey the prophets mistreated and even killed some of
them
yep my people got it right ok history shows what a great nation we were.
When oh when will my people stop being puffed up over Sinai?
How long o YHVH will WE continue our stiff-necked and stubborn ways?
TILL I BRING THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS OF THE NATIONS, THERE WHEN SHE
DELIVERS HER CHILDREN IN PAIN I WILL THEN BRING HER CHILDREN TO ZION AND I
WILL BE THEIR KING AND MY ARM SHALL RULE FOR ME AND I WILL BE THEIR ELOHIM
WHEN I HAVE POURED MY SPIRIT UPON THEM
conclusion The Oral instruction is wrong in part..
wisdom was lacking and faith was almost void.. I don't say this YHVH does,,
religion take it and dung it both Judaism and the Christians with their poor
understanding as well, both have failed miserably.. same issue with you
Cindy cant tell truth from religion. but you might one day.
Cindy you like everyone else will have to give up their lives.. if you
chose not to do this and believe the lie in which I have instructed is
coming if you fail to heed to it and understand, you as well as anyone else
who falls for it will die..
your house your livelihood you will either accept the fact it will be taken
away from you and accept a ride to Israel by HIS CHARIOTS, or think they are
aliens from outerspace and die fighting them to preserve your life..
YHVH calls many Jews in that day but few will be chosen.
HE RESPECTS NO MAN OR WOMAN creed or cause, white black, Jew or Gentile..
when you know that in your heart and KNOW YHVH then you will be fine.
Peace
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	29 Mar 2005 11:01:31 PM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 03:57:08 GMT, while wishing I would
go away, "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> said:

"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
news:3auhn4F5q911kU1@individual.net...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the first
followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services differently
from what is commanded in the Torah.

__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing animal
sacrifices after they were born again.

Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being totally
ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is coming
from?

Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

Hey look dude, you have Cindy agreeing with you. Why,
you MUST be right!
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditations." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
.

User: "Hieron"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	30 Mar 2005 08:16:46 AM

Pastor Dave wrote:

The temple was under the control of the Romans. The high priests, who were
being appointed by the Romans were tzaddokim (Sadducees), who were
considered heretics. With respect to the "Galilean rabbi," I know Christians
don't want to hear this, but assuming there was such a person as Jesus, he
was NOT a rabbi. He was a heretic who transgressed the law and was regarded
as such by all the Jews with the exception of his small band of followers.

Hey look dude, you have Cindy agreeing with you. Why,
you MUST be right!

I did not ask her to agree with me on Jesus. I am well aware of their
position as we have been debating on alt.messianic for years.
They see things differently, and I disagree with them on Jesus.
Interestingly, Jews argued in the past that Jesus had very wide
following. Cindy says the opposite. She is entitled to her opinion, just
as the Jew who argued that Jesus had a wide following was also entitled
to his/her opinion.
The only issue I was interested in was Temple practice, and Cindy
confirmed what I stated:
"In answer to the original question, since the Romans were
controlling the temple and since Jesus was a threat to them, it is my
opinion, that it is highly unlikely that they (either the Romans or the
priests, who were Roman puppets) would have treated any of his followers
leniently or made any exceptions for them at all. Just the opposite."
You must have missed this portion.
--
Hieron
.

User: "chuba"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	30 Mar 2005 10:35:56 AM

cindys wrote:

"Hieron" <george@msn.de> wrote in message
news:3auhn4F5q911kU1@individual.net...

In another thread a poster called Pastor Dave contended that the

first

followers of Jesus were allowed to perform Temple services

differently

from what is commanded in the Torah.

__________________
Dave:
Show me one passage that says that the disciples were performing

animal

sacrifices after they were born again.

Scott:
The Law here {Num. 6 - added by me} of the nazerite is to offer
sacrifice.. what's hard here that you work the scriptures, being

totally

ignorant of Torah, how can you understand what and where Paul is

coming

from?

Dave:
This is not an animal sacrifice. It does not say that
they sacrificed an animal for their sins. It doesn't
matter what Numbers 6 says. It does not say that they
did it, nor that they intended to do it.

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the

Jerusalem

assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus)

and why

a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he

was

the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules

the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written

in the

LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early

disciples?

Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules

and

still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.
__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the

required

sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

------------------
The temple was under the control of the Romans. The high priests, who

were

being appointed by the Romans were tzaddokim (Sadducees), who were
considered heretics. With respect to the "Galilean rabbi," I know

Christians

don't want to hear this, but assuming there was such a person as

Jesus, he

was NOT a rabbi. He was a heretic who transgressed the law and was

regarded

as such by all the Jews with the exception of his small band of

followers.

Whether you like it or not, the oral law IS Judaism, just as much as

the

written law, and it always has been. And for a Jew to transgress the

oral

law is a sin, and claiming it to be invalid is heresy. The

Sadduccees'

position was that only the written law was valid, and that's why they

were

regarded as heretics. It is a fact that in Judaism, the oral law has

equal

weight to the written law, and it always has. This is not a new idea.

This

was not a new idea 2000 years ago either. The oral law has worked in
conjunction with the written law since Moses received the torah on

Sinai.

Any *Judaism* which attempts to negate the validity of the written

law is

not Judaism but a different religion. And so, every time you claim

that

Jesus had every *right* to transgress the Sabbath, you are wrong. It

was

flouting the Jewish law that was accepted by all as defining what is

isn't Judaism. In answer to the original question, since the Romans

were

controlling the temple and since Jesus was a threat to them, it is my
opinion, that it is highly unlikely that they (either the Romans or

the

priests, who were Roman puppets) would have treated any of his

followers

leniently or made any exceptions for them at all. Just the opposite.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

**** Studying tradition and culturew in a time period is difficult.
because of the many Jewish sect that claimed Judaism.
I disagree with Cindy on Roman rule- they were hired by Jews to keep
the peace in away-Rome recognized all certified religions, plus the
Temple guards were Jews, Rome trained people from their own country,
because they knew the cultural ways of the people, Herod had his own
army.
Thr different sects were always fighting other Jewish sects, Josepheus
mentioned four groups that even fought each other in Jerusalem, killing
priests and desecrating Temple with blood of humans.
Temple grounds is about 15 football fields big, from the known world
people came to worship from all races, and not only Jews, the Gentile
courts were seperated from the Jewish courts, there was 24 different
groups (corses)of levitacle serving Temple , from bringing water ,
cooking food, cutting wood, serving the people within the Gentile court
rooms that are situated within the columns.
All were served , and even Gentiles send monet for priests to offer
sacrifice in the individuals name, laying hands on the sacrifice.
On a slow day one could visualize 100,000 souls within these rooms.
Jerusalem was the center of the trade world, fertile cresent.
Cindy tells of the priesthood in serving Temple, the Zadokies were
expelled , during Macabees time. Rome had a mixture of their priests,
and even priests would pour wine to Ceasar on the altar.(libation)
Jesus when becoming a man inTemple by scribes, 12 yrs. old was
recognized for his knowledge in Temple. Scrbes and priests would
commision him in the teaching of Torah.(three days he stays being fed
and housed in scrbes location)
Some Rabbi's do not marry because they marry the Torah, Jesus wore
special clothing, sandals, headress, as a Rabbi, his invitation to
teach and cure in Temple and Synagogues is in control of Sanhedrin,
Jesus does this for three years, turning tables over in Jewish court ,
were animal sacrifice was against Jewish Law, why does he get away with
it, unless he was part of Rabbi's.(Teacher)
Why is the followers of Jesus allowed to worship in Temple , especially
(Passove) from what I understand only a full Lamb could be eaten , and
it had to be within the walls of the Temple
Example were is Beautiful Gate located, many archaeologist and Jewish
say it's the gate or doorway between the two pillars, steps in front
are called Solomon steps, the same place the Jewish nation hangs first
fruits.
(Tradition of church is that poor and cripple stay in front of a
Cathedral to be cured and charity act.
Passover is celeberated in Gentile court, within the rooms of Royal
Stoa, East is the place of Sanhedrin(Court) there even Horns placed
within for all people to donate to Temple, money changed half shekel.
Pentecost is celeberated in same area, apostle enter and celeberate
Jewish custom, as Jews would , even Jesus for his whole life
participates. All knew him , and even within Sanhedrin He had friends.
pagan christian
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 08:38:13 PM

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services.

===
1. The fact that the Temple was destroyed circa 70 AD and has not
existed since then
2. The fact that Jesus said that this is a New Covenant in which his
blood provides atonement for sins
3. The fact that the book of Hebrews says that we have a new covenant
with a new priesthood with a new sacrifice for sin which make the Law
obsolete because it was a mere shadow of the new covenant
4. The fact that Galatians 3 says that the Law was our tutor and that
we are no longer under that tutor
5. The fact that Romans repeatedly says that we are no longer under the
Law
6. The fact that Romans 14 says that observance of days and dietary
observances is a matter of conscience which varies among indivuiduals
with God's approval, and that there is nothing which is inherently
unclean
7. The fact that there is not a single verse in any of the epistles
which warns Jewish followers of Jesus that they are obligated to
continue observing the Law in the New Covenant
8. The fact that the only instances in which people like Paul did
anything Law-like was in order to avoid offending the weaker brethren
(do not exercise your new covenant liberty if it will offend those who
do not understand; let their conscience be the guide for your behavior
whether it be observance of days or foods eaten or any other rituals)
.

User: "cockroach"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 09:25:39 PM

wrote in news:1112323093.384749.98560
@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services.

===

1. The fact that the Temple was destroyed circa 70 AD and has not
existed since then

and how does that effect the "early" disciples.

2. The fact that Jesus said that this is a New Covenant in which his
blood provides atonement for sins

so you finally admit that the covenant of jesus has nothing to do with
the promised covenant in jeremiah.

3. The fact that the book of Hebrews says that we have a new covenant
with a new priesthood with a new sacrifice for sin which make the Law
obsolete because it was a mere shadow of the new covenant

o the catholic church is your priesthood good one

4. The fact that Galatians 3 says that the Law was our tutor and that
we are no longer under that tutor

as i have claimed forever the immorality of chrisitanity.

5. The fact that Romans repeatedly says that we are no longer under

the

Law

see 4

6. The fact that Romans 14 says that observance of days and dietary
observances is a matter of conscience which varies among indivuiduals
with God's approval, and that there is nothing which is inherently
unclean

ok --- so explain all the mjs who are "torah observant"

7. The fact that there is not a single verse in any of the epistles
which warns Jewish followers of Jesus that they are obligated to
continue observing the Law in the New Covenant

so once again you admit that the covenant of jesus has nothing to do
wtih the promised covenant of jeremiah.

8. The fact that the only instances in which people like Paul did
anything Law-like was in order to avoid offending the weaker brethren
(do not exercise your new covenant liberty if it will offend those who
do not understand; let their conscience be the guide for your behavior
whether it be observance of days or foods eaten or any other rituals)

so once again we find paul the hypocrite

--
________________________________
The Jewish people must realize
that the only way to be redeemed
is through prayer�
Rabbi Yitzhak Batzri
Noted Kabbalist
_________________________________
.

User: "Hieron"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	01 Apr 2005 06:19:49 AM

wrote:

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services.

===

1. The fact that the Temple was destroyed circa 70 AD and has not
existed since then

Moshe, you are missing the point. I was talking about the early
disciples. Those after 70AD would rather constitute the second
generation believers.

2. The fact that Jesus said that this is a New Covenant in which his
blood provides atonement for sins

Which passage do you have in mind?

3. The fact that the book of Hebrews says that we have a new covenant
with a new priesthood with a new sacrifice for sin which make the Law
obsolete because it was a mere shadow of the new covenant

How does that do away with the fact that when the early disciples (such
as Pau) wanted to conduct Temple services, they could bypass Temple laws?

4. The fact that Galatians 3 says that the Law was our tutor and that
we are no longer under that tutor

What about the teaching of the Law? Did that also cease?

5. The fact that Romans repeatedly says that we are no longer under the
Law

The Law was a trainer-servant that prepared the Jewish people to the
Messiah. Those who now became sons are no longer under the authority of
the servant, but he had become an adult and knows what was taught him.

Read the chapter again, Paul is not dealing with what is or isn't
permissible to mature believers, but what is not to be made an issue
with new converts:
Rom 14:1 Now accept one who is *weak in faith*, but not for disputes
over opinions.
The *weak in faith* is not the one who doesn't speak in tongues, but he
is a new convert.

7. The fact that there is not a single verse in any of the epistles
which warns Jewish followers of Jesus that they are obligated to
continue observing the Law in the New Covenant

Apart from the NT teaching being derived from the Law, nothing really.
Paul says, "by the Law is the knowledge of sin". How do you avoid not
sinning then?
He also says, "Christ delivered us from the curse of the Law". Unless
you are obliged to observe the Law, this makes absolutely no sense, for
the curses of the Law only apply to those who are obliged to observe it
and disobey it.

You are mistaken again. He was asked to prove to the Jewish brethren
that he live by the Law.
Act 21:24 Take them, and purify yourself with them, and pay their
expenses for them, that they may shave their heads. Then all will know
that there is no truth in the things that they have been informed about
you, but that *you yourself also walk keeping the law*.
--
Hieron
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	30 Mar 2005 05:22:40 PM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:37:27 +1000, Hieron <george@msn.de> wrote:

Actually, the Book of Acts says that they DID infact carry out the
Commandment of Numbers 6 13-20 with respect to the Offering of a
Nazir. Which includes "a female lamb in its first year as a sin
offering."

Hieron:
Can you, Dave, show me a single passage that proves that the early
Jewish disciples discontinued performing Temple services. Can you
explain why Jacov, the brother of Yeshua and the leader of the Jerusalem
assembly was referred to as "The Just" (as recorded by Josephus) and why
a number of Pharisees died on his side when he was executed, if he was
the breaker of the Law?

Dave:
It is not my job to prove a negative, but it doesn't
surprise me that you would try to turn the tables,
after being unable to prove the claim that was made,
which is that Paul performed an animal sacrifice, after
being born again.

Dave, you have accused the Disciples of Yshu`a of committing sins. If
you claim that Yshu`a was the cause of this, you are accusing Him of
the sin of anulling a Commandment. To be more accurate, you accusing
Yshu`a of several counts of this evil action. The burden of proof is
upon the accuser, not the defender.

Hieron:
It is *your* job to prove that the early disciples broke the rules of
the Temple, and thus, they broke the Law of God.
The rules of how Temple services were to be performed are written in the
LAW. Anything contrary would have been rejected immediately.
Why do you think the priests made exceptions to the early disciples?
Thus, it is *you* who need to prove that they broke Temple rules and
still were accepted.

Dave:
A claim was made. I responded to that claim. The
claimant must prove their claim, not the other way
around.

Dave, the claim was that HaShem does not lie or sin in any other way.
Since anulling any of the 613 Commandments would be a sin (Deuteronomy
4:2), I have stated that HaShem never anulled the Commandments of the
Temple.
Isaiah 66 even says that these practices will continue in the Third
Temple after all Jews have returned to Israel vever to be dispersed
again.

__________________

What do you think? Would practices contrary to the Law have been
permitted in the Temple? Would any Jews be exempted from the required
sacrifices if they followed the Galilean rabbi?

Since that "Galilean rabbi" taught his students to obey all of the
Commandments, No follower of his could oppose any of the Law.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 01:17:06 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:2jcm41l0iqpsk1f39spa687vnc1ummshv0@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:37:27 +1000, Hieron <george@msn.de> wrote:

Dave, the claim was that HaShem does not lie or sin in any other way.
Since anulling any of the 613 Commandments would be a sin (Deuteronomy
4:2), I have stated that HaShem never anulled the Commandments of the
Temple.

Isaiah 66 even says that these practices will continue in the Third
Temple after all Jews have returned to Israel vever to be dispersed
again.

Since that "Galilean rabbi" taught his students to obey all of the
Commandments, No follower of his could oppose any of the Law.

of course not.. but this is what happened when our fathers rejected this, it
got into the hands of the Goyim who have done worse than our fathers ever
did,
if they only knew the judgment about to come on them hard.
therefore my warning remains, they shall call YHVH and HIS ANGELS "aliens"
from outer space, if you believe with your eyes what you see are aliens
which it will appear as such and are provoked to go into battle against
them. you shall surely die,
soon they will reveal the existence of Aliens, after that day things will
go down hill very fast, then the "demon aliens" will step in and pretend to
be for our world and they will reveal the lie by the one called anti Christ.
anti Christ will cause them these demons to rule over many.. they will tell
us a "bad group of aliens" are coming and that they have given us technology
to fight them like starwars SDI everything they say will be about defense
from what they say are evil aliens coming to control and take over our
planet, IF YOU BELIEVE THIS LIE you will be fighting YHVH AND HIS ANGELS who
are not evil aliens at all.. if you fight and do not accept the words of
many more like me in that day and seek to save your own way of life, namely
the American way over YHVH and find offense, if you fight YOU WILL DIE AND
NEVER RISE AGAIN BUT INTO SHAME forever in wailing and regret a sore burning
of regret and fear
YHVH is giving you fair warning in this, mock me not this shall come to
pass very soon, and to the men whose heart is HIS LAWS they shall know and
they shall forsake what they have and gladly accept the rides upon HIS
CHARIOTS to Israel where their lot awaits, even as in Heaven so it is on
earth, 7 fold that accept the rule of YHVH and accept HIS JUDGMENT upon this
world.
fight it and again forever you SHALL DIE.. your blood shall not be upon my
head for I have warned you from HIM
HE WISHES NOT TO KILL YOU but HE will and will not spare the young or the
old in whom have been provoked to the lie against HIM and HIS HOLY ONES,
EVEN MESSIAH.
Let him who knows GOD and has ears hear this warning from THE MOST HIGH
ELOHIM
LET him WHO HATES GOD rot away in their mocking,, stand not with the
ungodly and the mockers..
Others like me will begin and have begun to warn of these events.. trust in
your own ways and you will surely be deceived to fight YHVH ELOHIM.. lay
down your arms and lives as you know it and find it 100 fold in the world to
come fro YHVH is quick to spare the meek and the humble even the poor and
the widow and her children, but if even they are deceived, they shall also
die,
you have been warned, let the men and women of wisdom who fear HIM copy
this post and save it and let the fool mock it less he should know the truth
and be redeemed.
Peace ins the name of the world to come, but sorrow in the name of this
world that's about to go down forever.
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 01:48:43 AM

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:17:06 -0800, "Scott" <chayim@cox.net> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:2jcm41l0iqpsk1f39spa687vnc1ummshv0@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:37:27 +1000, Hieron <george@msn.de> wrote:

Dave, the claim was that HaShem does not lie or sin in any other way.
Since anulling any of the 613 Commandments would be a sin (Deuteronomy
4:2), I have stated that HaShem never anulled the Commandments of the
Temple.

Isaiah 66 even says that these practices will continue in the Third
Temple after all Jews have returned to Israel vever to be dispersed
again.

Since that "Galilean rabbi" taught his students to obey all of the
Commandments, No follower of his could oppose any of the Law.

of course not.. but this is what happened when our fathers rejected this, it
got into the hands of the Goyim who have done worse than our fathers ever
did,

if they only knew the judgment about to come on them hard.

therefore my warning remains, they shall call YHVH and HIS ANGELS "aliens"
from outer space, if you believe with your eyes what you see are aliens
which it will appear as such and are provoked to go into battle against
them. you shall surely die,

soon they will reveal the existence of Aliens, after that day things will
go down hill very fast, then the "demon aliens" will step in and pretend to
be for our world and they will reveal the lie by the one called anti Christ.
anti Christ will cause them these demons to rule over many.. they will tell
us a "bad group of aliens" are coming and that they have given us technology
to fight them like starwars SDI everything they say will be about defense
from what they say are evil aliens coming to control and take over our
planet, IF YOU BELIEVE THIS LIE you will be fighting YHVH AND HIS ANGELS who
are not evil aliens at all.. if you fight and do not accept the words of
many more like me in that day and seek to save your own way of life, namely
the American way over YHVH and find offense, if you fight YOU WILL DIE AND
NEVER RISE AGAIN BUT INTO SHAME forever in wailing and regret a sore burning
of regret and fear

YHVH is giving you fair warning in this, mock me not this shall come to
pass very soon, and to the men whose heart is HIS LAWS they shall know and
they shall forsake what they have and gladly accept the rides upon HIS
CHARIOTS to Israel where their lot awaits, even as in Heaven so it is on
earth, 7 fold that accept the rule of YHVH and accept HIS JUDGMENT upon this
world.

fight it and again forever you SHALL DIE.. your blood shall not be upon my
head for I have warned you from HIM
HE WISHES NOT TO KILL YOU but HE will and will not spare the young or the
old in whom have been provoked to the lie against HIM and HIS HOLY ONES,
EVEN MESSIAH.

Let him who knows GOD and has ears hear this warning from THE MOST HIGH
ELOHIM

LET him WHO HATES GOD rot away in their mocking,, stand not with the
ungodly and the mockers..

Others like me will begin and have begun to warn of these events.. trust in
your own ways and you will surely be deceived to fight YHVH ELOHIM.. lay
down your arms and lives as you know it and find it 100 fold in the world to
come fro YHVH is quick to spare the meek and the humble even the poor and
the widow and her children, but if even they are deceived, they shall also
die,

you have been warned, let the men and women of wisdom who fear HIM copy
this post and save it and let the fool mock it less he should know the truth
and be redeemed.

Peace ins the name of the world to come, but sorrow in the name of this
world that's about to go down forever.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 03:54:13 AM

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:6lan41ti6pkns7rrl7sttgh324si1mmgdm@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:17:06 -0800, "Scott" <chayim@cox.net> wrote:

"Aaron" <anon@home.net> wrote in message
news:2jcm41l0iqpsk1f39spa687vnc1ummshv0@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:37:27 +1000, Hieron <george@msn.de> wrote:

Dave, the claim was that HaShem does not lie or sin in any other way.
Since anulling any of the 613 Commandments would be a sin (Deuteronomy
4:2), I have stated that HaShem never anulled the Commandments of the
Temple.

Isaiah 66 even says that these practices will continue in the Third
Temple after all Jews have returned to Israel vever to be dispersed
again.

Since that "Galilean rabbi" taught his students to obey all of the
Commandments, No follower of his could oppose any of the Law.

of course not.. but this is what happened when our fathers rejected this,
it
got into the hands of the Goyim who have done worse than our fathers ever
did,

if they only knew the judgment about to come on them hard.

therefore my warning remains, they shall call YHVH and HIS ANGELS "aliens"
from outer space, if you believe with your eyes what you see are aliens
which it will appear as such and are provoked to go into battle against
them. you shall surely die,

soon they will reveal the existence of Aliens, after that day things will
go down hill very fast, then the "demon aliens" will step in and pretend
to
be for our world and they will reveal the lie by the one called anti
Christ.
anti Christ will cause them these demons to rule over many.. they will
tell
us a "bad group of aliens" are coming and that they have given us
technology
to fight them like starwars SDI everything they say will be about defense
from what they say are evil aliens coming to control and take over our
planet, IF YOU BELIEVE THIS LIE you will be fighting YHVH AND HIS ANGELS
who
are not evil aliens at all.. if you fight and do not accept the words of
many more like me in that day and seek to save your own way of life,
namely
the American way over YHVH and find offense, if you fight YOU WILL DIE AND
NEVER RISE AGAIN BUT INTO SHAME forever in wailing and regret a sore
burning
of regret and fear

YHVH is giving you fair warning in this, mock me not this shall come to
pass very soon, and to the men whose heart is HIS LAWS they shall know and
they shall forsake what they have and gladly accept the rides upon HIS
CHARIOTS to Israel where their lot awaits, even as in Heaven so it is on
earth, 7 fold that accept the rule of YHVH and accept HIS JUDGMENT upon
this
world.

fight it and again forever you SHALL DIE.. your blood shall not be upon
my
head for I have warned you from HIM
HE WISHES NOT TO KILL YOU but HE will and will not spare the young or the
old in whom have been provoked to the lie against HIM and HIS HOLY ONES,
EVEN MESSIAH.

Let him who knows GOD and has ears hear this warning from THE MOST HIGH
ELOHIM

LET him WHO HATES GOD rot away in their mocking,, stand not with the
ungodly and the mockers..

Others like me will begin and have begun to warn of these events.. trust
in
your own ways and you will surely be deceived to fight YHVH ELOHIM.. lay
down your arms and lives as you know it and find it 100 fold in the world
to
come fro YHVH is quick to spare the meek and the humble even the poor and
the widow and her children, but if even they are deceived, they shall also
die,

you have been warned, let the men and women of wisdom who fear HIM copy
this post and save it and let the fool mock it less he should know the
truth
and be redeemed.

Peace ins the name of the world to come, but sorrow in the name of this
world that's about to go down forever.

Whoa buddy.
With over one million Jewish followers in Israel alone, at the time of
his execution, you cannot make such a sweeping generalization. A
bigger percentage of Gentiles rejected him.
err no, not even close.. The Talmud and all of the historians would have
reported that.. that's highly inaccurate,, try about maybe 2000 people.. No
way historians miss that bro or The Talmud would never omit that fact,.
where do you get your info from?
think for a second before making a claim like that. the fact is most people
hated him except a few. His advent into Jerusalem was not a big deal as many
would be Messiahs were around in those days, because all of them knew the
time was fulfilled for Messiah to appear at least the one who is going to be
Messiah.
Think again here. 1 million Jews would equate to a huge amount of secular
historians taking notice of that bro.
My guesstimate would be at the most at one time about 5000 and into
Jerusalem maybe 2000 if that.
afterwards id say no more ever than 100,000 Jews tops at any time held a
belief on Yeshua in those days, and 100,000 might be high. again The Talmud
writers would have said a ton more about that if that was the case and
secular historians.
Most likely as I suspect with allot of scripture things get blown out of
hand and sensationalized..
I'd say most of the people thought he was a nutcase and that's not to be
rude except those who were really seeking GOD.. no different in Israel today
with most of it being secular as it was then.. 1 million Jews? heh bro I'm
sure you mean well but that's an absurd number that history does not support
in anyway!!
I believe he will be Messiah and believe BECAUSE OF THAT FACT IN PART.. we
need to take a closer look here.. with this heh I'm in agreement with Jan..
we need to stop exaggerating these numbers
If we had that many Jews believing then they would have been a section of
Judaism that would have held identity thru out the generations and
centuries, that's simply not the case.
Peace
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Corrupted Temple practices? Jews are invited to respond...	31 Mar 2005 12:25:02 PM

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:54:13 -0800, "Scott" <chayim@cox.net> wrote: