| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
09 Oct 2005 05:17:38 PM |
| Object: |
Creationism and higher eduction |
October 4, 2005
Letter to the University of Idaho Faculty, Staff and Students:
Because of recent national media attention to the issue, I write to
articulate the University of Idaho's position with respect to evolution:
This is the only curriculum that is appropriate to be taught in our
bio-physical sciences. As an academic scientific community and a research
extensive land-grant institution, we affirm scientific principles that are
testable and anchored in evidence.
At the University of Idaho, teaching of views that differ from evolution may
occur in faculty-approved curricula in religion, sociology, philosophy,
political science or similar courses. However, teaching of such views is
inappropriate in our life, earth, and physical science courses or curricula.
The University respects the rights of individuals to their personal
religious and philosophical beliefs, including those persons who may hold
and advocate a faith-based view that differs from evolution.
The University of Idaho's position is consistent with views articulated by
the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the
Advancement of Science, and more than 60 other scientific and educational
societies.
Timothy P. White, Ph.D.
President, University of Idaho
October 5, 2005
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
10 Oct 2005 09:58:46 AM |
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"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xjh2f.5014$5l.696@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
October 4, 2005
Letter to the University of Idaho Faculty, Staff and Students:
Because of recent national media attention to the issue, I write to
articulate the University of Idaho's position with respect to evolution:
This is the only curriculum that is appropriate to be taught in our
bio-physical sciences. As an academic scientific community and a research
extensive land-grant institution, we affirm scientific principles that are
testable and anchored in evidence.
At the University of Idaho, teaching of views that differ from evolution
may occur in faculty-approved curricula in religion, sociology,
philosophy, political science or similar courses. However, teaching of
such views is inappropriate in our life, earth, and physical science
courses or curricula.
The University respects the rights of individuals to their personal
religious and philosophical beliefs, including those persons who may hold
and advocate a faith-based view that differs from evolution.
The University of Idaho's position is consistent with views articulated by
the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the
Advancement of Science, and more than 60 other scientific and educational
societies.
Timothy P. White, Ph.D.
President, University of Idaho
October 5, 2005
That sounds like a "Religion" to me, and to an ever increasing number of
other well-informed people. All you are saying is, that evolution is gospel
at the University of Idaho and no one dare question it, or be prepared to
suffer the consequences. "Faith based view" indeed!!!!
We are questioning specific presumptions of evolution and will obtain
the right to question through the courts if denied. We dare you to penalize
anyone because he questions the "tests" and "evidence" you purport "affirm
scientific principles". If you don't mind, we want to make sure the Piltdown
Man isn't just the tip of an enormous iceberg of hoaxes their protagonists
are apparently so desperate to keep hidden, that they deny anyone the right
to ask questions in Physical Science classes.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
11 Oct 2005 11:03:06 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:8517f$434b1ccf$d1d894fe$11433@PRIMUS.CA:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Xjh2f.5014$5l.696@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
October 4, 2005
Letter to the University of Idaho Faculty, Staff and Students:
Because of recent national media attention to the issue, I write to
articulate the University of Idaho's position with respect to
evolution: This is the only curriculum that is appropriate to be
taught in our bio-physical sciences. As an academic scientific
community and a research extensive land-grant institution, we affirm
scientific principles that are testable and anchored in evidence.
At the University of Idaho, teaching of views that differ from
evolution may occur in faculty-approved curricula in religion,
sociology, philosophy, political science or similar courses. However,
teaching of such views is inappropriate in our life, earth, and
physical science courses or curricula.
The University respects the rights of individuals to their personal
religious and philosophical beliefs, including those persons who may
hold and advocate a faith-based view that differs from evolution.
The University of Idaho's position is consistent with views
articulated by the National Academy of Sciences, the American
Association for the Advancement of Science, and more than 60 other
scientific and educational societies.
Timothy P. White, Ph.D.
President, University of Idaho
October 5, 2005
That sounds like a "Religion" to me, and to an ever increasing
number of
other well-informed people. All you are saying is, that evolution is
gospel at the University of Idaho and no one dare question it, or be
prepared to suffer the consequences. "Faith based view" indeed!!!!
Actually it doesn't sound like religion at all. But an ever-increasing
number of ILL-informed people are being told that it does. Be very, very
careful what you pray for, you may end up with the very thing you want,
but in a form that you find totally unpalatable.
We are questioning specific presumptions of evolution and will
obtain
the right to question through the courts if denied. We dare you to
This is also a lie. For the past 50 years or so a small group of so-
called Christians (actually dedicated, heretical bibliolaters) has been
telling LIES about evolution and claiming to have evidence against it
that they do not possess. In a CIVILIZED country, these people could be
jailed for criminal libel. But the USA is NOT a civilized country. You
allow people to commit heinous slanders totally unchecked and it has
caused no small amount of political instability in your country, because,
in addition to being uncivilized--to the point of being one of the most
violent societies, you are also credulous. Your plutocrats have
carefully trained you to salivate when advertised at.
penalize anyone because he questions the "tests" and "evidence" you
purport "affirm scientific principles". If you don't mind, we want to
make sure the Piltdown Man isn't just the tip of an enormous iceberg
of hoaxes their protagonists are apparently so desperate to keep
hidden, that they deny anyone the right to ask questions in Physical
Science classes.
Piltdown man was a hoax perpetrated AGAINST evolutionists, not BY them.
Ask your scientific questions all you want. But ask them in a scientific
venue and accept the answers when they are given. You do not wish to do
either, but instead wish to LEGISLATE scientific reality. It cannot be
done. You can no more legislate evolution out of existence than can your
congress and senate repeal the law of gravity.
And if all the time in your science classrooms is spent answering
ignorant question based on lies told in so-called churches (I can't
imagine what kind of god inspires such behaviour, but don't want to
worship it and predict disaster if you do), then science will not get
taught. That could actually benefit me and mine because we do not live
in your country and could actually learn and DO science (though you are
already tryng to interfere with it here, too). If we do it even a little
better than you do, we will end up OWNING you. That's not a boast, it's
just simple arithmetic. You're already spending money you don't have,
promising to pay with the fruits of resources you've already burned,
while we continue to grow both as a market and as a source of resources.
Eventually, the economics will put an end to your depredations, if
nothing else does. That's eventually what screwed up the Romans and you
have learned NOTHING from their history.
The FACT of evolution was a done deal when it became clearly apparent in
the early 1800's that fossils were OLD and were mostly the remains of
extinct species. The THEORY of common descent was corroborated when the
chimp genome was sequenced. There are just WAY too many identical
genetic accidents recorded in the chimp and human genomes for them to be
independent. And if a god did all that stuff on purpose to deceive us,
we're right back to the place where I don't want to worship it, but would
rather reach for bell, book and candle and get it back where it came
from!
Of course creationists could try honesty. But they could not try it and
stay creationists long. You HAVE to lie about your real motives or it
just won't work. People may be suckers in great numbers, but they are
not THAT gullible. So you lie. And therein lies your Achilles heel.
Lies are lies and they WILL BE EXPOSED.
To be blunt, sir, creationism is the biggest pseudoscientific hoax of the
past 50 years and it has been a lucrative one for the hoaxers. Oh, they
don't get Bill Gates rich. But they don't have to think much or work
much and there is ZERO chance of being prosecuted for your frauds. The
only thing you need to do is remember to pay your taxes. But not all of
you are even THAT smart.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
12 Oct 2005 06:05:01 AM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EC5C132C8CAdoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
Of course creationists could try honesty. But they could not try it and
stay creationists long. You HAVE to lie about your real motives or it
just won't work. People may be suckers in great numbers, but they are
not THAT gullible. So you lie. And therein lies your Achilles heel.
Lies are lies and they WILL BE EXPOSED.
<snip>
That was a long post listing virtually all atheist urban legends about
"creationists" extant, but lacking any and all evidence. We don't dispute
much of what evolutionists say and can prove, we question their
extrapolations into fantasy. My post was about the right of students to
question those fantasies taught as facts in our Natural Science classes,
questions which some evolutionists and their adherents wish to suppress.
We suspect, that much of evolution taught in natural Science class is in
fact a concoction of anti-religious tenets designed to justify atheism. We
want to make sure they aren't and that lies "WILL BE EXPOSED" as was the
Piltdown Man hoax.
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get along just
fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human, you need to
prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and skills as well.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
12 Oct 2005 03:51:36 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EC5C132C8CAdoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
Of course creationists could try honesty. But they could not try it
and stay creationists long. You HAVE to lie about your real motives
or it just won't work. People may be suckers in great numbers, but
they are not THAT gullible. So you lie. And therein lies your
Achilles heel. Lies are lies and they WILL BE EXPOSED.
<snip>
That was a long post listing virtually all atheist urban legends
about
"creationists" extant, but lacking any and all evidence. We don't
You sinners ARE the evidence.
dispute much of what evolutionists say and can prove, we question
their extrapolations into fantasy. My post was about the right of
No you don't. You claim that anything that disagrees with your pet
theological interpretations is a "fantasy" and then make up lies to
support your claim that science is wrong.
students to question those fantasies taught as facts in our Natural
Science classes, questions which some evolutionists and their
adherents wish to suppress.
Do *I* have the right to come into your church and question your heresies
there? And I mean HERESY in the original sense of being heterodox to the
traditions of the religion you claim to represent.
We suspect, that much of evolution taught in natural Science class
is in
fact a concoction of anti-religious tenets designed to justify
atheism. We want to make sure they aren't and that lies "WILL BE
EXPOSED" as was the Piltdown Man hoax.
You can suspect anything you want. I've seen no evidence of any such
thing. You're just making loud, lying noises in the hope of deceiving
people. Go away. Go to hell. After all, your behaviour shows me that
hell is where your god lives.
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get along
just
fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human, you need
to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and skills as
well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count? Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count? Or will you just make
up some more lies and tell them. One real hoax and you people run around
claiming that everything is a hoax. Well, son, just about everything you
people DO is a hoax. I have yet to find much in the way of real honesty
about science on the part of any died-in-the-wool creationist. And too
many of you are claiming knowledge that you either clearly do not possess
(or you do possess it and are deliberately lying about it).
Either way, you're a pack of liars and a total stench in the nostrils of
the Most High, whose name you are continually using in vain (literally to
sop your own vanity!).
Don't try to pretend with me. I see you.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
14 Oct 2005 05:29:01 AM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human, you need
to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and skills as
well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire, buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as using straws
to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal tools only qualify.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
14 Oct 2005 01:47:57 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:55d17$434f8afa$d1d89a50$32348@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get
along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human, you
need to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and
skills as well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire,
buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as using
straws to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal tools only
qualify.
It seems to me that stone tools are found linked to all species of genus
homo and also to some of the australopithecines.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
You are either being obtuse or are just unaware that the genomes of both
humans and chimps have now been sequenced. It is not the PURPOSE of the
genes that we need to see to tell us of relationship, but their
configuration and that's as plain as the nose on your face. The human
number two chromosome is made from two of the ape chromosomes fused end
to end. The telomeres are still there in the middle where no telomeres
should otherwise exist. Moreover the two genomes are LITTERED with the
identical scars of identical genetic accidents. Either some strange
deity, not found in scripture, has been playing a collossal joke on
geneticists or humans and chimps are descended from a common ancestor.
You had better get used to hearing about this. The evidence is real and
is not going to go away. If you cannot explain it without blasphemy,
then I'd strongly suggest you consider altering your interpretation and
acquiring the humility to admit that you had it wrong.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
I am not an atheist and have no interest in advancing atheism, LIAR.
What I'm also not interested in, though, is advancing your phony cult of
lying about science (and God only knows what other perversions).
Now, if you INSIST on sinning in public, then do not be surprised when
you are found to be excommunicate from the body of Christ.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
15 Oct 2005 09:10:43 PM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EF7805F4065doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:55d17$434f8afa$d1d89a50$32348@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get
along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human, you
need to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and
skills as well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire,
buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as using
straws to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal tools only
qualify.
It seems to me that stone tools are found linked to all species of genus
homo and also to some of the australopithecines.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
You are either being obtuse or are just unaware that the genomes of both
humans and chimps have now been sequenced. It is not the PURPOSE of the
genes that we need to see to tell us of relationship, but their
configuration and that's as plain as the nose on your face. The human
number two chromosome is made from two of the ape chromosomes fused end
to end. The telomeres are still there in the middle where no telomeres
should otherwise exist. Moreover the two genomes are LITTERED with the
identical scars of identical genetic accidents. Either some strange
deity, not found in scripture, has been playing a collossal joke on
geneticists or humans and chimps are descended from a common ancestor.
You had better get used to hearing about this. The evidence is real and
is not going to go away.
"Evidence" of what? Let me guess: You believe that the great similarity
of the human and Simian genom is "evidence" that monkeys are in reality
evolutionary challenged humans. LOL
If you cannot explain it without blasphemy,
then I'd strongly suggest you consider altering your interpretation and
acquiring the humility to admit that you had it wrong.
"Wrong" in what? That art, constructing buildings, cooking of food and
making and wearing clothing are exclusively basic human activities and
should be the measure of what fossils are of human rather than ape origin?
You fail to propose a more suitable measuring tool.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
I am not an atheist
Thanks for proving my point.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
16 Oct 2005 08:30:27 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:414bf$4352ab7a$d1d894cd$29331@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EF7805F4065doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:55d17$434f8afa$d1d89a50$32348@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get
along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human,
you need to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and
skills as well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire,
buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as
using straws to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal
tools only qualify.
It seems to me that stone tools are found linked to all species of
genus homo and also to some of the australopithecines.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking
food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
You are either being obtuse or are just unaware that the genomes of
both humans and chimps have now been sequenced. It is not the
PURPOSE of the genes that we need to see to tell us of relationship,
but their configuration and that's as plain as the nose on your face.
The human number two chromosome is made from two of the ape
chromosomes fused end to end. The telomeres are still there in the
middle where no telomeres should otherwise exist. Moreover the two
genomes are LITTERED with the identical scars of identical genetic
accidents. Either some strange deity, not found in scripture, has
been playing a collossal joke on geneticists or humans and chimps are
descended from a common ancestor. You had better get used to hearing
about this. The evidence is real and is not going to go away.
"Evidence" of what? Let me guess: You believe that the great
similarity
of the human and Simian genom is "evidence" that monkeys are in
reality evolutionary challenged humans. LOL
Actually, in your case, it's pretty obvious that you don't read much
better than most chimps do.
If you cannot explain it without blasphemy,
then I'd strongly suggest you consider altering your interpretation
and acquiring the humility to admit that you had it wrong.
"Wrong" in what? That art, constructing buildings, cooking of food
and
making and wearing clothing are exclusively basic human activities and
should be the measure of what fossils are of human rather than ape
origin? You fail to propose a more suitable measuring tool.
So you admit that you cannot explain the genetics. You didn't even TRY
to do what I asked. You just mumbled something about similarities. I'm
not talking about similarities of function I'm talking about the
heritable debris of identical genetic accidents. Those do not accumulate
separately.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
I am not an atheist
Thanks for proving my point.
You don't HAVE a point. That is, other than to be rude, disrespectful
and abusive of your betters (which would be almost anyone taken at
random, given your performance here to date).
Inferiority is not, in and of itself, evil. But when you make it the
reason for your sins, then the sins ARE evil.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
17 Oct 2005 06:17:37 AM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F1BC43C9AFBdoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:414bf$4352ab7a$d1d894cd$29331@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EF7805F4065doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:55d17$434f8afa$d1d89a50$32348@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get
along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human,
you need to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence and
skills as well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire,
buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as
using straws to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal
tools only qualify.
It seems to me that stone tools are found linked to all species of
genus homo and also to some of the australopithecines.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking
food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
You are either being obtuse or are just unaware that the genomes of
both humans and chimps have now been sequenced. It is not the
PURPOSE of the genes that we need to see to tell us of relationship,
but their configuration and that's as plain as the nose on your face.
The human number two chromosome is made from two of the ape
chromosomes fused end to end. The telomeres are still there in the
middle where no telomeres should otherwise exist. Moreover the two
genomes are LITTERED with the identical scars of identical genetic
accidents. Either some strange deity, not found in scripture, has
been playing a collossal joke on geneticists or humans and chimps are
descended from a common ancestor. You had better get used to hearing
about this. The evidence is real and is not going to go away.
"Evidence" of what? Let me guess: You believe that the great
similarity
of the human and Simian genom is "evidence" that monkeys are in
reality evolutionary challenged humans. LOL
Actually, in your case, it's pretty obvious that you don't read much
better than most chimps do.
If you cannot explain it without blasphemy,
then I'd strongly suggest you consider altering your interpretation
and acquiring the humility to admit that you had it wrong.
"Wrong" in what? That art, constructing buildings, cooking of food
and
making and wearing clothing are exclusively basic human activities and
should be the measure of what fossils are of human rather than ape
origin? You fail to propose a more suitable measuring tool.
So you admit that you cannot explain the genetics. You didn't even TRY
to do what I asked. You just mumbled something about similarities. I'm
not talking about similarities of function I'm talking about the
heritable debris of identical genetic accidents. Those do not accumulate
separately.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
I am not an atheist
Thanks for proving my point.
You don't HAVE a point. That is, other than to be rude, disrespectful
and abusive of your betters (which would be almost anyone taken at
random, given your performance here to date).
Inferiority is not, in and of itself, evil. But when you make it the
reason for your sins, then the sins ARE evil.
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate method
to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying basic human
activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are obviously out of
your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs and insults to shield
your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to remind
you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is doctrine, not your
atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your disagreements with the Bible
to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
18 Oct 2005 01:13:49 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F1BC43C9AFBdoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:414bf$4352ab7a$d1d894cd$29331@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96EF7805F4065doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:55d17$434f8afa$d1d89a50$32348@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96ED8CFD9177Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:980cb$434d6812$d1d89aa8$5005@PRIMUS.CA:
Restrict evolution to what the evidence can prove and we get
along
just fine. If you want to call an extinct Simian an early human,
you need to prove his stage of evolution in human intelligence
and skills as well.
Hmmmm.....do skull size, tools and campsite traces count?
Evidence of intelligent behaviour is art, the use of fire,
buildings and
clothing. Monkeys camp and make and use simple "tools", such as
using straws to fish termites our of their mounts. Stone or metal
tools only qualify.
It seems to me that stone tools are found linked to all species of
genus homo and also to some of the australopithecines.
Does the
genetics actually linking humans and chimps count?
No. So far there have been no genes found, linked to cooking
food,
wearing clothes and building shelters. These are exclusively human
activities and the most basic ones.
You are either being obtuse or are just unaware that the genomes of
both humans and chimps have now been sequenced. It is not the
PURPOSE of the genes that we need to see to tell us of
relationship, but their configuration and that's as plain as the
nose on your face.
The human number two chromosome is made from two of the ape
chromosomes fused end to end. The telomeres are still there in the
middle where no telomeres should otherwise exist. Moreover the two
genomes are LITTERED with the identical scars of identical genetic
accidents. Either some strange deity, not found in scripture, has
been playing a collossal joke on geneticists or humans and chimps
are descended from a common ancestor. You had better get used to
hearing about this. The evidence is real and is not going to go
away.
"Evidence" of what? Let me guess: You believe that the great
similarity
of the human and Simian genom is "evidence" that monkeys are in
reality evolutionary challenged humans. LOL
Actually, in your case, it's pretty obvious that you don't read much
better than most chimps do.
If you cannot explain it without blasphemy,
then I'd strongly suggest you consider altering your interpretation
and acquiring the humility to admit that you had it wrong.
"Wrong" in what? That art, constructing buildings, cooking of
food and
making and wearing clothing are exclusively basic human activities
and should be the measure of what fossils are of human rather than
ape origin? You fail to propose a more suitable measuring tool.
So you admit that you cannot explain the genetics. You didn't even
TRY to do what I asked. You just mumbled something about
similarities. I'm not talking about similarities of function I'm
talking about the heritable debris of identical genetic accidents.
Those do not accumulate separately.
Or will you just make up some more lies and tell them.
Lying is your specialty, especially lying to advance atheism.
I am not an atheist
Thanks for proving my point.
You don't HAVE a point. That is, other than to be rude,
disrespectful and abusive of your betters (which would be almost
anyone taken at random, given your performance here to date).
Inferiority is not, in and of itself, evil. But when you make it the
reason for your sins, then the sins ARE evil.
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method
to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying basic
human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar. You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any proposition
that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by definition.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific evidence?
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups. But
simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't look very
good on your resume.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
19 Oct 2005 05:31:17 AM |
|
|
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying
basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on intelligence. Some
of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then again
many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies being
anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you are and are
still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit to it.
You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any proposition
that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by definition.
You again avoid the question of what obvious characteristics separates
Homos sapiens from extinct apes. First you try it with genetics, but any
geneticist will tell you that he gene responsible for human intelligence has
not as yet been identified, and that there is no obvious difference between
ape and man genetically. Then you come with the above list of extinct apes,
but which again fails to answer the question how you distinguish between
intelligent man and animal.
The dearth is so great, that even the entire evolution of intelligence
is questionable. Apparently the humanoid fossils were all animals, wearing
no clothes, using no fire etc. or we find relatively recent remains of
humans along with plenty of evidence of human activity, no evolutionary
inbetween stages have been found.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific evidence?
Are you accusing without providing evidence? Where is the citation of
any lie? Only Satan's minions accuse without providing evidence, for Satan's
minions MUST lie accusingly for they cannot speak the truth.
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
What "scientific evidence" are you talking about. You haven't provided
any, showing clearly the difference between ape and man fossils. Why lie
about it? You might as well admit, there isn't any way to show
unequivocally, which fossils of the ape genus were sapient and which were
not. My point being, that the ONLY difference between them is, that one
leaves evidence of cooking food, wearing clothes, constructing weapons and
dwellings and the other doesn't. That means, that even neandertal was just a
large extinct ape.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups. But
simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't look very
good on your resume.
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post to
groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang out.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 01:23:02 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one
tying basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject.
You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the
line. Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place.
That is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus,
rudolfensis, heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo
sapiens. However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of
genus homo are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and
pongids. In other words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade,
but they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect.
As well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios
than any modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of
genus homo. In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on
intelligence. Some
of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then
again many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
Yes, but nobody smart has a brain the size of a chimp. Some really
stupid people, like you, often have full-sized brains, though.
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created
in God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but
carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies
being anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you
are and are still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit
to it.
Since you cannot even read five words from me with comprehension, why
should I think you understand anything else written with words, INCLUDING
scripture?
I know what I am and it's what you fear most: a priest of God.
You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any
proposition that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by
definition.
You again avoid the question of what obvious characteristics
separates
Homos sapiens from extinct apes. First you try it with genetics, but
Which extinct apes?
any geneticist will tell you that he gene responsible for human
intelligence has not as yet been identified, and that there is no
I know that. But the fact that humans share a common ancestor with
chimps HAS been proven.
obvious difference between ape and man genetically. Then you come with
the above list of extinct apes, but which again fails to answer the
question how you distinguish between intelligent man and animal.
You're hiding your god in the gaps again. We have sequenced the genomes.
In time we WILL know what genes cause the large brain size in humans and
that will reveal how they came to be in us and not the chimps.
The dearth is so great, that even the entire evolution of
intelligence
is questionable. Apparently the humanoid fossils were all animals,
In your case, HIGHLY questionable. You seem to be reverting to some kind
of fish-brain.
wearing no clothes, using no fire etc. or we find relatively recent
remains of humans along with plenty of evidence of human activity, no
evolutionary inbetween stages have been found.
Again, this is pretty much wrong. Chimps make and use tools as did most
every hominin species for which we have some records. The advantage of
bipedal locomotion is that you can carry them (and the most important
thing of all, the baby).
Being able to make and carry tools, though puts selection pressure on
intelligence. But I guess in YOUR part of the family tree, these genes
have atrophied, since most of our ancestors were capable of learning to
read but not you.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific
evidence?
Are you accusing without providing evidence? Where is the citation
of
any lie? Only Satan's minions accuse without providing evidence, for
Satan's minions MUST lie accusingly for they cannot speak the truth.
You know what I'm talking about. If you don't then you are even MORE
stupid than I thought.
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
What "scientific evidence" are you talking about. You haven't
provided
any, showing clearly the difference between ape and man fossils. Why
lie about it? You might as well admit, there isn't any way to show
I already showed you that there is a common ancestor. You can make
anything of that evidence you want to try to make, but it won't go away.
But then why should you care. You can bamboozle people with words and
take their money and support.
unequivocally, which fossils of the ape genus were sapient and which
were not. My point being, that the ONLY difference between them is,
that one leaves evidence of cooking food, wearing clothes,
constructing weapons and dwellings and the other doesn't. That means,
that even neandertal was just a large extinct ape.
A large extinct ape with a bigger brain than yours and who at least
occasionally buried his dead. And we're pretty sure they made weapons
and used tools and clothes. Makes them seem pretty human to me.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups.
But simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't
look very good on your resume.
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post
to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang
out.
With you in it no NG is "pristine."
I did offer cogent genetic evidence in the form of the observation that
humans and chimps share a number of viral insertions plus the identical
non-functional GULO gene. If these are separately created genomes then
you need to ask your "creator" what its purpose was in copying these
things from one genome to another. Or maybe you just need to admit that
you have it wrong and that your literalist interpretation of Genesis is
faulty, since it cannot be squared with observations of physical fact.
Perhaps you should heed the ancient bishop who wrote:
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth,
the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion
and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions,
about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of
the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs,
stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being
certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and
dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably
giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these
topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing
situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and
laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant
individual is derided, but that people outside the household of
faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great
loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our
Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find
a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and
hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are
they going to believe those books in matters concerning the
resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom
of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on
facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the
light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy
Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren
when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and
are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our
sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and
obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy
Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which
they think support their position, although they understand neither
what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.
[1 Timothy 1.7]"
St. Augustine (ca 400AD)
But you'll probably just tell me that HE was a heretic and YOU are
orthodox. Yeah, right. And I have two bridges in Nova Scotia that you
can have for a reasonable sum.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 05:19:05 PM |
|
|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one
tying basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject.
You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the
line. Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place.
That is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus,
rudolfensis, heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo
sapiens. However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of
genus homo are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and
pongids. In other words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade,
but they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect.
As well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios
than any modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of
genus homo. In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on
intelligence.
===>The phony "pastor" Frank appears to live only to prove that it
is so!
Brain size of a Homo Sapiens brain size,
intelligence of a pithecanthropus. .;-) -- L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Methulesah" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
19 Oct 2005 01:05:15 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying
basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on intelligence.
Some of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then
again many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies being
anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you are and are
still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit to it.
You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any proposition
that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by definition.
You again avoid the question of what obvious characteristics separates
Homos sapiens from extinct apes. First you try it with genetics, but any
geneticist will tell you that he gene responsible for human intelligence
has not as yet been identified, and that there is no obvious difference
between ape and man genetically. Then you come with the above list of
extinct apes, but which again fails to answer the question how you
distinguish between intelligent man and animal.
The dearth is so great, that even the entire evolution of intelligence
is questionable. Apparently the humanoid fossils were all animals, wearing
no clothes, using no fire etc. or we find relatively recent remains of
humans along with plenty of evidence of human activity, no evolutionary
inbetween stages have been found.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific evidence?
Are you accusing without providing evidence? Where is the citation of
any lie? Only Satan's minions accuse without providing evidence, for
Satan's minions MUST lie accusingly for they cannot speak the truth.
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
What "scientific evidence" are you talking about. You haven't provided
any, showing clearly the difference between ape and man fossils. Why lie
about it? You might as well admit, there isn't any way to show
unequivocally, which fossils of the ape genus were sapient and which were
not. My point being, that the ONLY difference between them is, that one
leaves evidence of cooking food, wearing clothes, constructing weapons and
dwellings and the other doesn't. That means, that even neandertal was just
a large extinct ape.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups. But
simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't look very
good on your resume.
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post to
groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang out.
How could anybody be so wrong?
Must not come outside much!
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
19 Oct 2005 01:39:14 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying
basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on intelligence.
Some of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then
again many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
You know very well that your claims are fraud!
Brain size is ONE indicator of lineage/evolution; walking upright, asnother
....... etc..
What happens in other species is meaningless.
(You have a brain size the same as the average human, but you don't use it
very often - and CERTAINLY are capable of arguing evolution/genetics/brain
size or even religon!)
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not.
Evidence? Proof? Facts?
I just saw a short piece about a crow (I belkieve it was a crow) - who -
without anayone showing it how - bent a piece of wire to retrieve a food
basket from a well shaped container.
Was the crow created in "gawd's image"?
Do you have ANY evidence (biblical or not) that "Created in God's image"
means intelligence - other than your own psychotic bellowing?
Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
YO!
***** for brains!
Atheism and evolutino are TWO DIFFERENT TOPICS!
Of course, being an ignorant fraud, you would never knowe - or admit to -
that.
This is an OPEN news group FOR THE DISCUSSION OF (Christian) RELIGION!
It is NOT a place where idiots like you can bellow anything they want in
favor of their (no matter how insane) beliefs - and is closed to all
others!
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies being
anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you are and are
still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit to it.
The gospel according to an arrogant moron!
You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any proposition
that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by definition.
You again avoid the question of what obvious characteristics separates
Homos sapiens from extinct apes. First you try it with genetics, but any
geneticist will tell you that he gene responsible for human intelligence
has not as yet been identified, and that there is no obvious difference
between ape and man genetically. Then you come with the above list of
extinct apes, but which again fails to answer the question how you
distinguish between intelligent man and animal.
The dearth is so great, that even the entire evolution of intelligence
is questionable. Apparently the humanoid fossils were all animals, wearing
no clothes, using no fire etc. or we find relatively recent remains of
humans along with plenty of evidence of human activity, no evolutionary
inbetween stages have been found.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific evidence?
Are you accusing without providing evidence? Where is the citation of
any lie? Only Satan's minions accuse without providing evidence, for
Satan's minions MUST lie accusingly for they cannot speak the truth.
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
What "scientific evidence" are you talking about. You haven't provided
any, showing clearly the difference between ape and man fossils. Why lie
about it? You might as well admit, there isn't any way to show
unequivocally, which fossils of the ape genus were sapient and which were
not. My point being, that the ONLY difference between them is, that one
leaves evidence of cooking food, wearing clothes, constructing weapons and
dwellings and the other doesn't. That means, that even neandertal was just
a large extinct ape.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups. But
simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't look very
good on your resume.
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post to
groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for your
ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped and
ignorant your claims were!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 01:24:12 AM |
|
|
"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in
news:11ld4mb33aab42e@corp.supernews.com:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an
alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one
tying basic human activities to human fossils, and which you
reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the
line. Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous
skull development which enables the larger brain size in the first
place. That is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus,
rudolfensis, heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo
sapiens. However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members
of genus homo are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and
pongids. In other words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that
clade, but they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked
erect. As well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass
ratios than any modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any
member of genus homo. In point of fact, they are intermediate in
that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on
intelligence.
Some of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains.
Then again many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human
intelligence.
You know very well that your claims are fraud!
Brain size is ONE indicator of lineage/evolution; walking upright,
asnother ...... etc..
What happens in other species is meaningless.
(You have a brain size the same as the average human, but you don't
use it very often - and CERTAINLY are capable of arguing
evolution/genetics/brain size or even religon!)
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created
in God's image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not.
Evidence? Proof? Facts?
I just saw a short piece about a crow (I belkieve it was a crow) - who
- without anayone showing it how - bent a piece of wire to retrieve a
food basket from a well shaped container.
Was the crow created in "gawd's image"?
Do you have ANY evidence (biblical or not) that "Created in God's
image" means intelligence - other than your own psychotic bellowing?
Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
YO!
***** for brains!
Atheism and evolutino are TWO DIFFERENT TOPICS!
Of course, being an ignorant fraud, you would never knowe - or admit
to - that.
This is an OPEN news group FOR THE DISCUSSION OF (Christian) RELIGION!
It is NOT a place where idiots like you can bellow anything they want
in favor of their (no matter how insane) beliefs - and is closed to
all others!
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but
carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies
being anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you
are and are still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit
to it.
The gospel according to an arrogant moron!
You see that's the
trouble with latter-day literalist creationism. You have to lie to
defend it, which means that it's ipso facto a heresy. Any
proposition that DEMANDS that you lie to defend it is a heresy....by
definition.
You again avoid the question of what obvious characteristics
separates
Homos sapiens from extinct apes. First you try it with genetics, but
any geneticist will tell you that he gene responsible for human
intelligence has not as yet been identified, and that there is no
obvious difference between ape and man genetically. Then you come
with the above list of extinct apes, but which again fails to answer
the question how you distinguish between intelligent man and animal.
The dearth is so great, that even the entire evolution of
intelligence
is questionable. Apparently the humanoid fossils were all animals,
wearing no clothes, using no fire etc. or we find relatively recent
remains of humans along with plenty of evidence of human activity, no
evolutionary inbetween stages have been found.
Why is it a good Christian witness to lie about the scientific
evidence?
Are you accusing without providing evidence? Where is the citation
of
any lie? Only Satan's minions accuse without providing evidence, for
Satan's minions MUST lie accusingly for they cannot speak the truth.
Please post YOUR disagreements with the scientific evidence to the
appropriate groups. Thanks.
What "scientific evidence" are you talking about. You haven't
provided
any, showing clearly the difference between ape and man fossils. Why
lie about it? You might as well admit, there isn't any way to show
unequivocally, which fossils of the ape genus were sapient and which
were not. My point being, that the ONLY difference between them is,
that one leaves evidence of cooking food, wearing clothes,
constructing weapons and dwellings and the other doesn't. That means,
that even neandertal was just a large extinct ape.
If you wish to exclude certain groups then YOU set the followups.
But simply directing me to a venue where you don't read posts won't
look very good on your resume.
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post
to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang
out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for your
ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped and
ignorant your claims were!
Yes, I, too would feel honoured to achieve a place in this moron's
killfile.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 07:07:58 AM |
|
|
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F4EE112D526doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in
news:11ld4mb33aab42e@corp.supernews.com:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post
to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang
out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for your
ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped and
ignorant your claims were!
Yes, I, too would feel honoured to achieve a place in this moron's
killfile.
Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667
Apparently rather than answering the main question Christians have about
evolution, you would rather be found in bed with our most persistent atheist
creeching troll. LOL
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
21 Oct 2005 01:35:46 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:177f4$4357f468$d1d89aad$31347@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F4EE112D526doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in
news:11ld4mb33aab42e@corp.supernews.com:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or
post to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists
hang out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for
your ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped
and ignorant your claims were!
Yes, I, too would feel honoured to achieve a place in this moron's
killfile.
Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667
Apparently rather than answering the main question Christians have
about
evolution, you would rather be found in bed with our most persistent
atheist creeching troll. LOL
Better an atheist who thinks than a heretic who doesn't.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
21 Oct 2005 06:42:48 PM |
|
|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:177f4$4357f468$d1d89aad$31347@PRIMUS.CA:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F4EE112D526doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in
news:11ld4mb33aab42e@corp.supernews.com:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or
post to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists
hang out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for
your ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped
and ignorant your claims were!
Yes, I, too would feel honoured to achieve a place in this moron's
killfile.
Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667
Apparently rather than answering the main question Christians have
about
evolution, you would rather be found in bed with our most persistent
atheist creeching troll. LOL
Better an atheist who thinks than a heretic who doesn't.
===>And the fake "pastor" Frank is actually a YHWH-denying
atheist who does not think. ;-) -- L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 05:26:02 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F4EE112D526doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"ZenIsWhen" <here'slooking@youkid.com> wrote in
news:11ld4mb33aab42e@corp.supernews.com:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
When posting to our pristine Christian NGs, just quit lying and
provide
evidence for any assertions that differ from Biblical truth, or post
to groups where your like-minded true-believing evolutionists hang
out.
???????????
When have YOU EVER provided valid (or even biblical) evidence for your
ignorant, egomaniacal bellowing?
You started to ignore ME when I started showing how insane, warped and
ignorant your claims were!
Yes, I, too would feel honoured to achieve a place in this moron's
killfile.
Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667
Apparently rather than answering the main question Christians have about
evolution, you would rather be found in bed with our most persistent atheist
creeching troll. LOL
===>There is no bigger "atheist" than YOU, the phony
"pastor" Frank, whose only "god" is his EMOTION, even
claiming that Christ of the Christians is just an incarnation of
"Love"! -- L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 05:15:38 PM |
|
|
ZenIsWhen wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:b4445$435686b5$d1d89ab2$8793@PRIMUS.CA...
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying
basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on intelligence.
Some of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then
again many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
You know very well that your claims are fraud!
Brain size is ONE indicator of lineage/evolution; walking upright, asnother
...... etc..
What happens in other species is meaningless.
(You have a brain size the same as the average human, but you don't use it
very often - and CERTAINLY are capable of arguing evolution/genetics/brain
size or even religon!)
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not.
Evidence? Proof? Facts?
===>As for Evolution, even rabid creationists admit there is lots of evidence
for
what they call "micro evolution".
But they cannot point to a single evidence for "creation". Not even "micro
creation".
So much for the big "debate". -- L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Creationism and higher eduction |
20 Oct 2005 05:11:37 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns96F2EC4E6A270doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:219b6$43540773$d1d894c8$10742@PRIMUS.CA:
Changing the subject? LOL You were asked to propose an alternate
method to distinguish ape fossils from human ones, than the one tying
basic human activities to human fossils, and which you reject. You are
You didn't specifically say that's what you wanted.
Well, you see, the real difficulty is deciding where you draw the line.
Genus homo is fairly easy to determine from the neotonous skull
development which enables the larger brain size in the first place. That
is found in fossils of homo habilis, ergaster, erectus, rudolfensis,
heidelbergensis, and neandertalis as well as all homo sapiens.
However, you should know that, cladistically, ALL members of genus homo
are in the same clade as gibbons, orangs, gorillas and pongids. In other
words the modern apes.
Australopithecines and earlier hominin genera are also in that clade, but
they differ from the non-hominin apes in that they walked erect. As
well, some of them had quite a bit larger brain-to-mass ratios than any
modern ape, though still quite a bit less than any member of genus homo.
In point of fact, they are intermediate in that respect.
You know very well, that brain size has no bearing on intelligence. Some
of the most brilliant minds, had smaller than average brains. Then again
many animals have much larger ones, yet lack human intelligence.
obviously out of your depth and now have to resort to non sequiturs
and insults to shield your fragile ego.
The fact is, that God created ape and man, but man was created in
God's
image, meaning intelligent, whereas the ape was not. Do I need to
remind you, that you post to religious NGs, where creation is
doctrine, not your atheist apostasy of evolution. Please post your
disagreements with the Bible to the appropriate groups. Thanks.
Again, I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a liar.
Yes. Like all atheists you always know what you are not, but carefully
avoid telling anyone what you are, much like Libertine, who denies being
anything at all. Either that, or you just don't know what you are and are
still looking, which btw isn't a sin as long as you admit to it.
You see that | | | | | | | | | | | | |
