| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
| Date: |
29 Jul 2006 09:43:20 PM |
| Object: |
Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
After raking in large amounts of funds by way of a movie that was
supposed to attack the Divinity of Christ (but failed to do
so...instead just funding anti-DVC book sales), Sony is set to release
as an Easter film the movie, The Resurrection, which will take up after
the resurrection of Jesus and up to the ascension into Heaven.
This film, unlike DVC, will set a firm foundation on not only the power
of Christ but His authority, as well. For, if it follows Scripture,
this film will show a Jesus that carries the marks fo the cross,
performs miracles, speaks with authority, and arises to His Father at
the end in sight of everyone (with a promise to return). To quell any
doubts that Hollywood will water this story down, Tim Lahaye (of the
Left Behind books) is signed on as a producer.
This is a modern day example of the Scripture that says...
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
....since this film will take the ticket sales of those that wanted to
reject Christ's authority (from DVC ticket sales) and use the funds to
make and distribute the most fundamentalist, Bible-based film on His
Authority and Power since the Passion of the Christ.
Ken Clifton
The Secret Real
http://thesecretreal.com
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 01:44:20 AM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After raking in large amounts of funds by way of a movie that was
supposed to attack the Divinity of Christ
It was? I think its goal was to rake in large amounts of funds while
telling a good story.
Speaking of raking in, per Boxofficemojo, Da Vinci Code is only $3.7
million in worldwide receipts away from passing up Narnia, which of
course was the comparison that started you off on your high horse
regarding this film. DVC is still in some theaters "raking it in"
slowly - only around $100K per day in the US, but another couple of
million internationally per week. Probably it will pass Narnia when
mojo next updates international sales, which it does every week or two
weeks.
This is a modern day example of the Scripture that says...
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
...since this film will take the ticket sales of those that wanted to
reject Christ's authority (from DVC ticket sales) and use the funds to
make and distribute the most fundamentalist, Bible-based film on His
Authority and Power since the Passion of the Christ.
But will it pack them in like Da Vinci Code?
lojbab
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 02:45:40 PM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After raking in large amounts of funds by way of a movie that was
supposed to attack the Divinity of Christ
It was? I think its goal was to rake in large amounts of funds while
telling a good story.
Speaking of raking in, per Boxofficemojo, Da Vinci Code is only $3.7
million in worldwide receipts away from passing up Narnia, which of
course was the comparison that started you off on your high horse
regarding this film. DVC is still in some theaters "raking it in"
slowly - only around $100K per day in the US, but another couple of
million internationally per week. Probably it will pass Narnia when
mojo next updates international sales, which it does every week or two
weeks.
Yes. The first installment of the Narnia story (with a Christ
typecast) did do that well...didn't it. There are 6 more to come. By
the way, Christians made money off of DVC all over the place. How many
atheists benefited from Narnia?
This is a modern day example of the Scripture that says...
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
...since this film will take the ticket sales of those that wanted to
reject Christ's authority (from DVC ticket sales) and use the funds to
make and distribute the most fundamentalist, Bible-based film on His
Authority and Power since the Passion of the Christ.
But will it pack them in like Da Vinci Code?
lojbab
I'd say you answered yoru question, since you said Narnia was a
comparable box, not to mention the Passion's crowd at 611 million.
Ken Clifton
The Secret Real
http://thesecretreal.com
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 11:27:40 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
the way, Christians made money off of DVC all over the place. How many
atheists benefited from Narnia?
Why should I care?
lojbab
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| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 03:06:36 PM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
After raking in large amounts of funds by way of a movie that was
supposed to attack the Divinity of Christ
It was? I think its goal was to rake in large amounts of funds while
telling a good story.
Speaking of raking in, per Boxofficemojo, Da Vinci Code is only $3.7
million in worldwide receipts away from passing up Narnia, which of
course was the comparison that started you off on your high horse
regarding this film. DVC is still in some theaters "raking it in"
slowly - only around $100K per day in the US, but another couple of
million internationally per week. Probably it will pass Narnia when
mojo next updates international sales, which it does every week or two
weeks.
Yes. The first installment of the Narnia story (with a Christ
typecast) did do that well...didn't it. There are 6 more to come. By
the way, Christians made money off of DVC all over the place. How many
atheists benefited from Narnia?
One more thought on this, not that it really matters but to be exact.
Inflation between the time of the Narnia film and DVC would've been
about 1.75 percent. So, DVC would need to make about 10 million more
to be equal. Again, it's just a minor detail, but it was needed to be
accurate.
Ken Clifton
The Secret Real
http://thesecretreal.com
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 11:38:05 PM |
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"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
One more thought on this, not that it really matters but to be exact.
Inflation between the time of the Narnia film and DVC would've been
about 1.75 percent. So, DVC would need to make about 10 million more
to be equal. Again, it's just a minor detail, but it was needed to be
accurate.
That's probably only another couple of weeks. DVC doesn't seem to be
out in DVD yet, so apparently the movie people expect to make a bit
more in theaters.
lojbab
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 12:39:27 AM |
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Bob LeChevalier wrote:
"Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
One more thought on this, not that it really matters but to be exact.
Inflation between the time of the Narnia film and DVC would've been
about 1.75 percent. So, DVC would need to make about 10 million more
to be equal. Again, it's just a minor detail, but it was needed to be
accurate.
That's probably only another couple of weeks. DVC doesn't seem to be
out in DVD yet, so apparently the movie people expect to make a bit
more in theaters.
For some reason, I didn't get Wide-Eyed-Stupidity's post, but I can see
he's spinning and dancing like the nutty dervish he is, making sure
reality stays as foreign to him as commonsense. And I see he's got a
NEW WEBSITE. I'm going to have to get to work, for a new parody of it.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "David Johnston" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
05 Aug 2006 08:35:27 PM |
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On 29 Jul 2006 19:43:20 -0700, "Wide Eyed in Wonder"
<kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
Oh, by the way, you do know that the "wealth" in that proverb isn't
cash, right?
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
05 Aug 2006 10:04:59 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 01:35:27 GMT, David Johnston <rgorman@block.net> wrote:
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
Oh, by the way, you do know that the "wealth" in that proverb isn't
cash, right?
No, it's not, but the notion still holds. What constitutes wealth has
changed over time, but the idea of wealth itself has not ..
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
30 Jul 2006 02:20:01 PM |
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On 29 Jul 2006 19:43:20 -0700, "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
wrote:
This is a modern day example of the Scripture that says...
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
I sure wouldn't say that, and I share most of the beliefs and opinions
you've offered in the recent past in these groups.
I will reserve judgment and remain very, very skeptical until such a film is
ever actually released. Secularists are incapable of understanding sacred
beliefs. Tim LaHaye or no, the best these people can do is muck up the
biblical account ..
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 12:36:37 AM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On 29 Jul 2006 19:43:20 -0700, "Wide Eyed in Wonder" <kands00@hotmail.com>
wrote:
This is a modern day example of the Scripture that says...
"...a sinner's wealth is stored up for the righteous..." Proverbs
13:22
I sure wouldn't say that, and I share most of the beliefs and opinions
you've offered in the recent past in these groups.
I will reserve judgment and remain very, very skeptical until such a film is
ever actually released. Secularists are incapable of understanding sacred
beliefs. Tim LaHaye or no, the best these people can do is muck up the
biblical account ..
That is a utterly stupid thing to say. Your ideas are very easy to
understand. You're just too puffed-up with yourself to recognize it,
and instead construe our rejection of your barbaric message as spiritual
blindness. You have that flaw I was talking about. We can be spiritual
without your blood sacrifice, friend.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 12:12:26 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:36:37 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
I will reserve judgment and remain very, very skeptical until such a film is
ever actually released. Secularists are incapable of understanding sacred
beliefs. Tim LaHaye or no, the best these people can do is muck up the
biblical account ..
That is a utterly stupid thing to say. Your ideas are very easy to
understand. You're just too puffed-up with yourself to recognize it,
and instead construe our rejection of your barbaric message as spiritual
blindness. You have that flaw I was talking about. We can be spiritual
without your blood sacrifice, friend.
1 Cor 2: 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who
among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In
the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we
speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the
Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. b{ b Or Spirit,
interpreting spiritual truths to spiritual men} 14 The man without the
Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they
are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing
House) 1984.
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 06:14:50 PM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:36:37 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
I will reserve judgment and remain very, very skeptical until such a film is
ever actually released. Secularists are incapable of understanding sacred
beliefs. Tim LaHaye or no, the best these people can do is muck up the
biblical account ..
That is a utterly stupid thing to say. Your ideas are very easy to
understand. You're just too puffed-up with yourself to recognize it,
and instead construe our rejection of your barbaric message as spiritual
blindness. You have that flaw I was talking about. We can be spiritual
without your blood sacrifice, friend.
1 Cor 2: 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who
among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In
the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we
speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the
Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. b{ b Or Spirit,
interpreting spiritual truths to spiritual men} 14 The man without the
Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they
are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
The New International Version, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing
House) 1984.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you simpleton. I know all about it. Now if Jesus
recommended we sit around remembering reams of scripture, I'd be
impressed with your scriptural knowledge. But Jesus was recommending
something more akin to commonsense. That's why his simple message blows
right past most of you Christians. You lack an essential element to
bring the whole thing intelligently into focus. This is why you'll
always be a cult, and the more advanced our civilization becomes, the
more you'll resent us.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 07:18:42 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:14:50 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
This is why you'll
always be a cult, and the more advanced our civilization becomes, the
more you'll resent us.
As usual, you have it backwards; you are projecting ..
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 08:42:21 PM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:14:50 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
This is why you'll
always be a cult, and the more advanced our civilization becomes, the
more you'll resent us.
As usual, you have it backwards; you are projecting ..
You want to put money on it?
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
31 Jul 2006 09:45:19 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:18:42 -0500, George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:14:50 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
This is why you'll
always be a cult, and the more advanced our civilization becomes, the
more you'll resent us.
As usual, you have it backwards; you are projecting ..
[chuckle]
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
From a beginning of citizens as white, male and twenty-one to today's men and
women of all races with suffrage at 18 and with the organized "Christian"
denominations supporting slavery (and freedom) and women as inferior (and
equal) and with many "Christian" "charity" organizations a part of political
parties, freedom has - so many times - meant having to fight many parts of
the ChiRho money machine.
Gray Shockley
------------------------
You who build these altars now
to sacrifice these children,
you must not do it anymore.
A scheme is not a vision
and you never have been tempted
by a demon or a god.
- Leonard Cohen
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 06:42:29 AM |
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Gray Shockley wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:18:42 -0500, George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 18:14:50 -0500, Alric Knebel <alric@[cableone.net]>
wrote:
This is why you'll
always be a cult, and the more advanced our civilization becomes, the
more you'll resent us.
As usual, you have it backwards; you are projecting ..
[chuckle]
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
From a beginning of citizens as white, male and twenty-one to today's men and
women of all races with suffrage at 18 and with the organized "Christian"
denominations supporting slavery (and freedom) and women as inferior (and
equal) and with many "Christian" "charity" organizations a part of political
parties, freedom has - so many times - meant having to fight many parts of
the ChiRho money machine.
That was BEAUTIFULLY put. I tend to let my rancor show when I discuss
these issues, but you did a very fine job of circling it before striking.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 02:27:29 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep. We live today in a tyranny,
the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society, a tyranny of multi-national corporations
which flout international law with impunity (can you say, Microsoft?), a
tyranny of a government systematically disenfranchising its people of their
unalienable rights all in the name of security.
Further, the United States was as much a non-secularist nation as Israel.
Consider:
It is the privilege of Americans in this Christian nation to prefer
Christians as rulers.
Chief Justice John Jay
Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens
Daniel Webster
It is the glory of the revolution that it united in one indissoluble bond
the principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government.
John Quincy Adams
"Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of
society, but nevertheless it must be regarded as the foremost of the
political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a
taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of free institutions.
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the
United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know
whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for
who can search the human heart? But, I am certain that they hold it
to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.
This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizen or to a party, but
it belongs to the whole nation, and to every rank of society."
- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 09:51:59 PM |
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George Peatty <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
very arguable.
Only in one sense was this true. The monasteries kept certain kinds
of information from being lost, by preserving and copying books.
However the Christian hegemony was opposed to and destroyed much that
was tied to the old pre-Christian ways that might otherwise have
survived.
Furthermore, the Crusades did a pretty good job of helping to bring
down the Moslem Golden Age which was preserving knowledge in the east.
Most importantly, by being anti-knowledge, the Christian hegemony in
Europe made the Dark Ages last long enough to get very dark indeed.
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
Well, the Dark Ages are equally a misnomer. It was a time of enormous
cultural and social change, but there was no real regression, and the
people who had power had no interest in education, unless it was to
further the ends of the church.
But few people would want to have lived in the "Dark Ages".
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep.
We are doing quite fine.
We live today in a tyranny, the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society,
In the churches and private homes. Religion is a PRIVATE matter.
a tyranny of multi-national corporations
which flout international law with impunity (can you say, Microsoft?),
That hasn't changed, just the names of the players. Back then, there
was a multi-national corporation that flouted all laws with impunity
including its own. It was called the Christian church (aka Roman
Catholic Church).
a
tyranny of a government systematically disenfranchising its people of their
unalienable rights all in the name of security.
At least this country recognizes that rights exist.
Further, the United States was as much a non-secularist nation as Israel.
Never.
(useless and repetitive quotes that prove nothing deleted)
lojbab
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
02 Aug 2006 05:36:50 AM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
No, it was pretty dark BECAUSE of the church.
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
You mean, it contrasts with your Christian opinion of what
"enlightenment" means.
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep. We live today in a tyranny,
the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society, a tyranny of multi-national corporations
which flout international law with impunity (can you say, Microsoft?), a
tyranny of a government systematically disenfranchising its people of their
unalienable rights all in the name of security.
Hogwash. All of it. We're now free of tyranny of Christian
superstition, which dictated to people what was enjoyable and limited
what makes a good person. The other problems already existed, and for
the reasons you said. But it's not a lack of Christian "values" that
cause it. Remember, our "Christian" country started out with the vast
majority of the population disenfranchised. The problem is now that
people feed into the hatred of labor encouraged by these corporations.
Further, the United States was as much a non-secularist nation as Israel.
Consider:
It is the privilege of Americans in this Christian nation to prefer
Christians as rulers.
Chief Justice John Jay
He was wrong. People without "Christian" rulers have just as good of
governments. All over Europe for example.
Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens
Daniel Webster
These comments are said by stupid men with narrow ideas. You can be
equally as good a citizen without being a Christian.
It is the glory of the revolution that it united in one indissoluble bond
the principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government.
John Quincy Adams
You need to read more about how many people were in the Revolution and
what sort of people comprised the army.
"Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of
society, but nevertheless it must be regarded as the foremost of the
political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a
taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of free institutions.
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the
United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know
whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for
who can search the human heart? But, I am certain that they hold it
to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.
This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizen or to a party, but
it belongs to the whole nation, and to every rank of society."
- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)
I have never heard such hogwash. PEOPLE desire freedom, and it has
nothing to do with Christianity. The same people who set up this
country immediately believed slavery was okay. This counterargument is
so common, it's trite for me to even point it out. But it's a glaring
truth, pointing out how ridiculously desperate you are to hype the
necessity of your superstition.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "moviePig" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 03:16:52 PM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep. We live today in a tyranny,
the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society, a tyranny of multi-national corporations
which flout international law with impunity (can you say, Microsoft?), a
tyranny of a government systematically disenfranchising its people of their
unalienable rights all in the name of security.
Further, the United States was as much a non-secularist nation as Israel.
Consider:
It is the privilege of Americans in this Christian nation to prefer
Christians as rulers.
Chief Justice John Jay
Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens
Daniel Webster
It is the glory of the revolution that it united in one indissoluble bond
the principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government.
John Quincy Adams
"Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of
society, but nevertheless it must be regarded as the foremost of the
political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a
taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of free institutions.
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the
United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know
whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for
who can search the human heart? But, I am certain that they hold it
to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.
This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizen or to a party, but
it belongs to the whole nation, and to every rank of society."
- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)
If your point is that religion has always had some hold on America,
then we might disagree only on whether it's a foothold or a
stranglehold. (See, e.g., Bush's efforts to stem cell-research.)
But, if your point is that history declares religion an inevitable part
of society, government, or even of civilization itself, then we might
not disagree at all... any more than we would about the same claim for
murder, corruption, and war...
--
/---------------------------\
| YOUR taste at work... |
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| http://www.moviepig.com |
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 03:30:57 PM |
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On 1 Aug 2006 13:16:52 -0700, "moviePig" <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
But, if your point is that history declares religion an inevitable part
of society, government, or even of civilization itself, then we might
not disagree at all... any more than we would about the same claim for
murder, corruption, and war...
My claim is that there has been a fundamental change in attitude toward
religion that manifests itself in all sorts of ways, not the least of which
is a revisionism concerning its proper place in an enlightened society ..
Not all of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but many were, and all ..
as well as the citizenry at large .. held the notion that a community's
religious life was essential to its vitality. We live in a society today
that claims with a straight face the converse, that religion is the *enemy*
of any truly viable and worthwhile society. I simply note the change in
attitude ..
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 10:07:35 PM |
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George Peatty <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
On 1 Aug 2006 13:16:52 -0700, "moviePig" <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
But, if your point is that history declares religion an inevitable part
of society, government, or even of civilization itself, then we might
not disagree at all... any more than we would about the same claim for
murder, corruption, and war...
My claim is that there has been a fundamental change in attitude toward
religion that manifests itself in all sorts of ways, not the least of which
is a revisionism concerning its proper place in an enlightened society ..
There has been a pendulum that has swung back and forth. In the
"Great Awakening" and other Revival periods, people became more
religious. At other times, they became less religious. But there
remains a general trend that has continued from the founding of the
colonies, which is that religion is a personal matter.
Not all of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but many were,
But what did it mean to "be a Christian" then. It had NOTHING to do
with fundamentalist Christianity, which did not exist yet.
Puritanism, which has some similarities, had found itself unable to
prevail even in the area where it dominated, and had largely faded
away. Presbyterianism, and Calvinism in general, was a discriminated
against minority in most of the colonies, causing them to move down
the Appalachians and over the mountains into the west where they could
get away from the largely secular majority that ran the country. That
area became the Bible belt.
And that is what you cannot deal with - the majority of Christians ARE
secularists. They want to keep their religion to themselves, and not
hear about your religion, unless you happen to attend their church.
and all .. as well as the citizenry at large .. held the notion that a community's
religious life was essential to its vitality.
But again, what they called "religious life" was the fact that
everyone in the community got together on Sunday to worship together,
but more importantly to socialize together. In a largely rural
country, churches were the only reason for people to get together
socially.
Then the shopping mall was invented. (Actually, society became
urbanized and no longer needed reasons to get together socially.
Churches exist for those who want them, but they can be ignored by
those who don't want to bother).
We live in a society today
that claims with a straight face the converse, that religion is the *enemy*
of any truly viable and worthwhile society.
Society claims no such thing.
ORGANIZED religion, perhaps. But the tyranny of organized religion
was championed by no less than Jefferson and Madison.
lojbab
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
02 Aug 2006 05:39:00 AM |
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George Peatty wrote:
On 1 Aug 2006 13:16:52 -0700, "moviePig" <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
But, if your point is that history declares religion an inevitable part
of society, government, or even of civilization itself, then we might
not disagree at all... any more than we would about the same claim for
murder, corruption, and war...
My claim is that there has been a fundamental change in attitude toward
religion that manifests itself in all sorts of ways, not the least of which
is a revisionism concerning its proper place in an enlightened society ..
Not all of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but many were, and all ..
as well as the citizenry at large .. held the notion that a community's
religious life was essential to its vitality. We live in a society today
that claims with a straight face the converse, that religion is the *enemy*
of any truly viable and worthwhile society. I simply note the change in
attitude ..
You have a fifth graders historical outlook. Look around you. Do you
see what life feels like for most people today? That's what it was like
then, with people in power using grades ideas to justify the stifling of
the life of others.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "David Johnston" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 03:21:27 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:27:29 -0400, George Peatty
<peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep. We live today in a tyranny,
the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society,
Wah! They're smarter than us! They're tyrannising us!
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 07:02:04 PM |
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:27:29 -0500, George Peatty wrote
(in article <paavc2h78iqp4ga948ia2hfaqv7ja1shvb@4ax.com>):
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:45:19 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
The times of the XP Church's greatest power and influence is remembered as
"The Dark Ages".
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
Oh, really? You mean the Inquisitions, the Christian churches seizing land,
the Christian Church used to reinforce pseudo-secular rule?
And, of course, we shouldn't forget the genocide perpetrated by the Christian
Churches in the exploration and conquering of the Americas.
The rebellion against the Dark Ages is known as "The Enlightenment".
The more I learn of the Enlightenment, the more I realize what a misnomer it
is ..
Please elaborate. Let's see: Galileo,
---------------------------
" Servitus -- almost incidentally -- described the regeneration of blood in
the lungs. It was part of his theology of regeneration. But it was quite
accurate. Servitus told us just what Harvey did, 85 years later.
"Servitus sent a copy of his book to Calvin. Calvin took it very badly. He
ordered Servitus's arrest and trial as a heretic. A tribunal sentenced
Servitus to burn in a fire fueled by slow-burning green wood and his own
books."
<http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi689.htm>
---------------------------
and a few more.
Notable - perhaps the /most/ notable - product of The Enlightenment is the
experiment into a republic by the United States of America. Neither a
monarchy nor rule by any other "divine right" but rule by the mind of the
citizens.
A republic which we have been unable to keep.
And what have you done for your country?
We live today in a tyranny,
the intellectual tyranny of the secularist left which would deny religion
its rightful place in society,
And what is religion's "rightful place in society"?
a tyranny of multi-national corporations
which flout international law with impunity (can you say, Microsoft?),
No, I don't have to say "Microsoft" but you do, hypocrite. Your headers say
you use Forte Agent as a newsreader and, the last time I checked, Forte Agent
runs only under Microsoft Windows.
Mine say I use Hogwasher as my newsreader. And one of my .sigs says:
Apple since 1981,
Macintosh since 1986.
So, it appears, that /you/ "can say, Microsoft" very, very well.
a tyranny of a government systematically disenfranchising
its people of their unalienable rights all in the name of security.
And, in the last couple Presidential elections, you voted for?
Further, the United States was as much a non-secularist nation as Israel.
Consider:
It is the privilege of Americans in this Christian nation to prefer
Christians as rulers.
Chief Justice John Jay
You mean Christian "rulers" such as Richard Nixon, the Reagans' astrologer,
William Clinton's third-base on balls and the born-again thug we now have for
President and Coward-in-Chief?
Whatever makes men good Christians makes them good citizens
Daniel Webster
I've known so few Christians in my lifetime - ten or - at most - twenty that
I can't vouch for the truth of Webster's but he was - as are we all - free to
spout any non theatre-fire speech he so desired.
It is the glory of the revolution that it united in one indissoluble bond
the principles of Christianity with the principles of civil government.
John Quincy Adams
Of course, most of the "rulers" of those who did /not/ believe "in one
indissoluble bond" and fought the United States for over four years were
"Christians" too. And they used Christianity to justify slavery and the
entire War of the Rebellion.
"Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of
society, but nevertheless it must be regarded as the foremost of the
political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a
taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of free institutions.
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the
United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know
whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for
who can search the human heart? But, I am certain that they hold it
to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.
This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizen or to a party, but
it belongs to the whole nation, and to every rank of society."
- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America (1835)
Amazing! I just noticed that all your quotes are from the "free, white, male,
propertied, 21" America.
By any chance, are you a white male, owning property who all us "others" have
taken away along with your freedom because we think we should have rights,
also?
At a guess, you're older than "just" middle-aged and you've never done a
thing and you think women should "stay in their proper place" and you say not
very nice things about all sorts of people who aren't white as well as
"children these days".
And Val Cannon and Sherry aren't truly dead.
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------
CAESAR (recovering his self-possession).
Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian,
and thinks that the customs of his tribe
and island are the laws of nature.
- George Bernard Shaw
Caesar and Cleopatra (1898)
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 08:09:55 PM |
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:02:04 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
Amazing! I just noticed that all your quotes are from the "free, white, male,
propertied, 21" America.
The Declaration we have is a modified version of the original document,
which indeed did have "property" in place of "pursuit of happiness."
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 07:25:49 PM |
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:02:04 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
And, of course, we shouldn't forget the genocide perpetrated by the Christian
Churches in the exploration and conquering of the Americas.
A genocide which you condone by living here .. And, you call me a hypocrite
...
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 07:35:56 PM |
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:02:04 -0500, Gray Shockley <grayshockley@gmail.com>
wrote:
It was the church that kept it from being darker than it was ..
Oh, really? You mean the Inquisitions, the Christian churches seizing land,
the Christian Church used to reinforce pseudo-secular rule?
No, I mean a church that served as guardian and caretaker of most of the
works of antiquity. Take away the church and the Aeneid and the Iliad, and
thousands of other works likely do not survive. And, this was the least of
the church's works ..
Further, nothing of what you say about the church's misdeeds has any
relevance today. The Young Men's Christian Association, the Salvation Army,
and the Twelve Step Fellowship were founded by Christians whose work has
helped millions .. And, these are three organizations in just one country ..
The overall contribution of the church to the collective betterment of
humankind is beyond calculating ..
You and I mean different things when we say the word church. You focus on
its abuses .. as if anything you said above is still relevant today. I
prefer to think of the church as those humble Christians who go about doing
good in ways that no one except God knows about, and who often as not were
the ones persecuted by the religious leaders of their day.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 10:12:58 PM |
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George Peatty <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
No, I mean a church that served as guardian and caretaker of most of the
works of antiquity.
The church that did that was Islam. Christianity did NOT preserve
most of the works of antiquity, and was far more likely to burn than
to preserve.
Some of the collections of those works by Islamic rulers were taken as
prizes by Crusaders, who tended to preserve what they took after
burning what they left behind.
lojbab
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Da Vinci Code funds Fundamentalist Film |
01 Aug 2006 10:29:59 PM |
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George Peatty <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
No, I mean a church that served as guardian and caretaker of most of the
works of antiquity. Take away the church and the Aeneid and the Iliad, and
thousands of other works likely do not survive.
I just had another thought on this. Some ancient Greek texts were
preserved by the Byzantines, who were Christian, but it wasn't
Christianity that led to their preservation, but the fact that the
Byzantine civilization itself was Greek speaking and the ancient Greek
literature was part of their cultural heritage.
The Byzantine civilization was ultimately defeated by the Moslems, but
only after having been nearly destroyed by the Crusaders. So again,
Christianity was a tool of destruction of ancient culture.
lojbab
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