| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Aaron Johnson" |
| Date: |
22 Jan 2004 01:29:17 PM |
| Object: |
Daily Message for Creationists |
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all. In the
first place, nothing even remotely like them is even remotely alluded to in
either Testament. About the only "biblical" disease that anyone can remember
is leprosy (a bacterial disease), and there's no clue that any of the
writers that mentioned it knew that it was caused by any sort of
micro-organism. Egyptian cattle suffered a "murrain"-- with no apparent
cause other than a divine curse. A blight on crops is mentioned in a place
or two, which, if it were naturally caused, might be a viral disease, but
again only the disease is mentioned, not any organic cause. Then there are
the "emerods" (hemorrhoids) with which God afflicted some folks he was
miffed at. I have been told both of the following by "creation scientists":
* The Devil created viruses.
* Viruses are not in the Bible because they are "imperfect."
But the really disturbing thing about viruses is that they occupy the
twilight zone between living and dead, a zone that would seem ought not to
exist in a creation in which creatures were "given life," or have "the
breath of life." Of course, the creationist may arbitrarily assign them to
either the "living" or "dead" category, but either assignment is a forced
fit. Can they be alive if they don't move, breathe, eat, excrete, or
metabolize at all, and can even be crystallized, like other non-living
chemicals? Can they be dead if they can self-replicate (reproduce) using the
same basic methods as other living things, parasitize other creatures, and
are made of nearly the same proteins and nucleic acids as we are?
Evolutionary theory doesn't demand that there be a sharp distinction between
living systems and nonliving molecules. That's the premise of abiogenesis,
which creationists insist on lumping in with evolution, so what the heck...
we'll take it. Evolutionary theory can also explain where viruses came from,
or why they exist. The fact that there are presently several tentative
explanations in no way threatens the structure of evolutionary theory; we're
perfectly happy with hypotheses until the preponderance of evidence clearly
favors one over all others. In evolutionary theory (with abiogenesis) there
should be some hazy area between living and nonliving, and viruses are
dwellers of that twilight zone.
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| User: "Mitch Alsup" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 04:21:07 PM |
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(Aaron Johnson) wrote in message news:<7c2c4ad7.0401221127.37a2f805@posting.google.com>...
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
<snip>
What about prions: even more primitive life forms than viruses
taking dozens of years to manifest themselves as disease.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 04:45:45 PM |
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Mitch Alsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) wrote:
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
<snip>
What about prions: even more primitive life forms than viruses
taking dozens of years to manifest themselves as disease.
They aren't life forms, they are isomers of proteins that trigger a
catalytic cascade.
--
John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 05:05:21 PM |
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On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:21:07 +0000 (UTC),
Mitch Alsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) wrote in message news:<7c2c4ad7.0401221127.37a2f805@posting.google.com>...
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
<snip>
What about prions: even more primitive life forms than viruses
taking dozens of years to manifest themselves as disease.
Prions aren't organisms. They're proteins.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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| User: "Raymond E. Griffith" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 06:12:20 PM |
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"AC" <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnc3agfr.1dc.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:21:07 +0000 (UTC),
Mitch Alsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) wrote in message
news:<7c2c4ad7.0401221127.37a2f805@posting.google.com>...
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
<snip>
What about prions: even more primitive life forms than viruses
taking dozens of years to manifest themselves as disease.
Prions aren't organisms. They're proteins.
He didn't say "organisms", he said "even more primitive life forms than
viruses". They are indeed proteins. They are not absorbed by the body, but
they replicate using the body's machinery.
If you wish to hold that no virus is alive and no prion is alive, fine. But
please note what he actually did say.
Regards,
Raymond E. Griffith
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 07:20:22 PM |
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On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:12:20 +0000 (UTC),
Raymond E. Griffith <tiffirgrREVERSE@ctc.net> wrote:
"AC" <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:slrnc3agfr.1dc.mightymartianca@namibia.tandem...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:21:07 +0000 (UTC),
Mitch Alsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) wrote in message
news:<7c2c4ad7.0401221127.37a2f805@posting.google.com>...
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
<snip>
What about prions: even more primitive life forms than viruses
taking dozens of years to manifest themselves as disease.
Prions aren't organisms. They're proteins.
He didn't say "organisms", he said "even more primitive life forms than
viruses". They are indeed proteins. They are not absorbed by the body, but
they replicate using the body's machinery.
If you wish to hold that no virus is alive and no prion is alive, fine. But
please note what he actually did say.
I generally equate life form with organism. If you like I will rephrase
thusly:
Prions aren't life form forms. They're proteins.
As to viruses, I think they admirably demonstrate the fuzzy grey middle.
They have some aspects of living organisms, but lack several as well. My
opinion, whether shared by the people far brighter than me, is that viruses
are not living organisms at all.
--
Aaron Clausen
tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
19 Feb 2004 07:44:38 PM |
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On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:20:22 +0000 (UTC), AC
<mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote:
As to viruses, I think they admirably demonstrate the fuzzy grey middle.
They have some aspects of living organisms, but lack several as well. My
opinion, whether shared by the people far brighter than me, is that viruses
are not living organisms at all.
If viri are alive, then man has created life!
"de novo chemical-biochemical synthesis of infectious poliovirus
from basic chemical building blocks, independent of viral components
previously formed in vivo and with the use of the known sequence as
the only instruction for engineering the genome. The succession of
macromolecular events in an infected cell was reproduced in a test
tube containing a cell-free extract devoid of nuclei, mitochondria,
and other cellular organelles and seeded with viral RNA. This
result confirms that the genome sequence originally deciphered from
virion RNA is correct (4, 5) and demonstrates the feasibility of
chemical-biochemical synthesis of an infectious agent in the absence
of a natural template."
(FROM: SCIENCE, Volume 297(5583), 9 August 2002, pp 1016-1018
"Chemical Synthesis of Poliovirus cDNA:
Generation of Infectious Virus in the Absence of Natural Template"
Geronimo Cello, et al. -- READ AT
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1072266
OR
neekoh.openthelight.com/1016.pdf)
## Grammatici certant et adhuc sub iuduce lis est.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
22 Jan 2004 01:37:38 PM |
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:29:17 +0000 (UTC),
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do. Who told you that?
In the
first place, nothing even remotely like them is even remotely alluded to in
either Testament.
Why would it need to be directly stated? Many things
aren't and that is true of any book, even science
books, so by this logic, many things aren't known,
because they're not mentioned in that book.
About the only "biblical" disease that anyone can remember
is leprosy (a bacterial disease), and there's no clue that any of the
writers that mentioned it knew that it was caused by any sort of
micro-organism.
Does it matter? Does every description of leprosy, in
every book, give all of the scientific information
about it? They knew to separate people, which implies
knowledge of it.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution
is a fact of life are great con men and the story
they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.
In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota
of fact. - Dr. T. N. Tahmisian
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| User: "Eros" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
23 Jan 2004 12:13:16 AM |
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Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote in message news:<ef9010ldsmrboki5su0pfduljetm1087b5@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:29:17 +0000 (UTC),
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do. Who told you that?
In the
first place, nothing even remotely like them is even remotely alluded to in
either Testament.
Why would it need to be directly stated? Many things
aren't and that is true of any book, even science
books, so by this logic, many things aren't known,
because they're not mentioned in that book.
Ah, but science has numerous textbooks... creation "science" has only
one!
About the only "biblical" disease that anyone can remember
is leprosy (a bacterial disease), and there's no clue that any of the
writers that mentioned it knew that it was caused by any sort of
micro-organism.
Does it matter? Does every description of leprosy, in
every book, give all of the scientific information
about it? They knew to separate people, which implies
knowledge of it.
What knowledge does that require, except the simple observation that
people in contact with lepers also contracted the disease? No
knowledge of the cause of the disease was necessary!
Pastor Dave Raymond
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not
see."
Hebrews 11:1
"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution
is a fact of life are great con men and the story
they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.
In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota
of fact. - Dr. T. N. Tahmisian
"We do not know how the creator created, what processes He used, for
He used processes which are not now operating in the natural universe.
This is why we refer to creation as Special Creation. We cannot
discover by scientific investigation anything about the creative
processes used by the creator. (Duane Gish, Creation Life Publishers,
1979, p. 40.)
"There is no observational fact imaginable which cannot, one way or
another, be made to fit the creation model." -- Dr. Henry Morris
(Institute for Creation Research)
EROS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Bible is evidence that it isn't evidence."
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
23 Jan 2004 07:51:24 AM |
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On 22 Jan 2004 22:13:16 -0800,
eros_talk_origins@hotmail.com (Eros) spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote in message news:<ef9010ldsmrboki5su0pfduljetm1087b5@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:29:17 +0000 (UTC),
akjmicro@yahoo.com (Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
From "Things Creationists Hate"
www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm
Viruses
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do. Who told you that?
In the
first place, nothing even remotely like them is even remotely alluded to in
either Testament.
Why would it need to be directly stated? Many things
aren't and that is true of any book, even science
books, so by this logic, many things aren't known,
because they're not mentioned in that book.
Ah, but science has numerous textbooks... creation "science" has only
one!
Untrue. There are many books on Creation Science that
discuss many areas of science.
About the only "biblical" disease that anyone can remember
is leprosy (a bacterial disease), and there's no clue that any of the
writers that mentioned it knew that it was caused by any sort of
micro-organism.
Does it matter? Does every description of leprosy, in
every book, give all of the scientific information
about it? They knew to separate people, which implies
knowledge of it.
What knowledge does that require, except the simple observation that
people in contact with lepers also contracted the disease? No
knowledge of the cause of the disease was necessary!
Assuming they didn't know, neither is it in many books.
Pastor Dave Raymond
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not
see."
Hebrews 11:1
And? Your point?
"Scientists who go about teaching that evolution
is a fact of life are great con men and the story
they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.
In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota
of fact. - Dr. T. N. Tahmisian
"We do not know how the creator created, what processes He used, for
He used processes which are not now operating in the natural universe.
This is why we refer to creation as Special Creation. We cannot
discover by scientific investigation anything about the creative
processes used by the creator. (Duane Gish, Creation Life Publishers,
1979, p. 40.)
"There is no observational fact imaginable which cannot, one way or
another, be made to fit the creation model." -- Dr. Henry Morris
(Institute for Creation Research)
I've already addressed this.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"You can safely assume that you've created God in your
own image when it turns out that God hates all the same
people you do. - Anne Lamott
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| User: "chris" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
22 Jan 2004 08:27:57 PM |
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Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote:
(Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do.
Are they alive, Dave? And if so, are they too complex to have
originated without a designer?
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
23 Jan 2004 07:49:45 AM |
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On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 02:27:57 GMT, chris
<www211@infionline.net> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote:
(Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do.
Are they alive, Dave? And if so, are they too complex to have
originated without a designer?
They are a lot more complex than you give them credit
for. The evolutionist is guilty of oversimplification.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
http://www.geocities.com/dpatrickwood/evolution2.html
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| User: "chris" |
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| Title: Re: Daily Message for Creationists |
09 Feb 2004 08:59:43 PM |
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Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote:
chris <www211@infionline.net> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave <nospam-draymond@minister.com> wrote:
(Aaron Johnson) spake thusly:
Viruses hardly fit into the creationist's view of the world at all.
Sure they do.
Are they alive, Dave? And if so, are they too complex to have
originated without a designer?
They are a lot more complex than you give them credit
for. The evolutionist is guilty of oversimplification.
Nice sidestep Dave.
You didn't answer either question.
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