| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"stone" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2006 11:21:57 AM |
| Object: |
Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
I am posting this to correct what I think is an obvious and serious error in
Bible prophecy interpretation of Dan. 11.
Dan.11:31, about the daily sacrifice taken away and the placing of the
abomination that makes desolate, is obviously the same thing spoken of in
Dan.12:11, where this is supposed to happen 1290 days from the end of the
world. Yet bible scholars say that it happened before 163 BC, when antiochus
Epiphanes offered a swine upon the alter. This cannot be true, because Jesus
said that this is a future prophecy that will happen at the time of the end,
in Matt. 24:3 – 22. This obvious error comes from the apocryphal book
1Maccabees 1:44-50; Macc. 5:30,31. The appocryphal books contain errors and
fiction that cannot be trusted that is why they were rejected for
establishing doctrine.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy
the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
The 70 weeks of punishment on Israel in Dan. 9 are shown in more detail in
Dan. 11.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that 70 weeks of punishment for iniquity would
be visited upon Israel for her sins. That is referring to 70 weeks of years
or 70 times 7 years. Dan. 9:24 shows these are years of punishment.
The first 69 years of this punishment on Israel happen before Messiah comes.
Then it says that Messiah would be killed, Dan.9:26, and in the same verse
it tells that the people that the antichrist (the prince that shall come)
will come from, will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans did
that in 70AD. This shows that the antichrist will be a Roman prince or
ruler. Notice, that there is an historical break of over 1900 years in that
one verse, going from the death of Jesus, to the prince that shall come, the
antichrist. 69 of the 70 weeks of years had passed, and there is one 7 year
period of punishment on Israel left.
[The reason for this over 1900 year break in time is because as it says in
Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks are determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem.
It must be fulfilled when the Jews are a nation and living in Jerusalem.
From around AD 70 onward, the Jews were a scattered people and not a nation
living at Jerusalem. So only the 69 weeks could be fulfilled till that time.
In Dan. 9:26 it tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it says
desolations are determined. This is the period that Israel will be desolate
for over 1900 years. Israel became a nation again in 1948 and got control of
Jerusalem in 1967. Now the remaining last week of 7 years can be fulfilled.
Week number 70.]
Dan. 9:27 shows that this prince that shall come, the antichrist, will make
a 7 year covenant with Israel, and in the middle of the 7 years, he will
cause the sacrifice and oblation that Israel offers to God to stop, and for
the abominations, in those days, the antichrist shall make desolation or
destruction even until the end of the world. The time of that 7 year
covenant is the final 7 years till the end of the world called the
tribulation period. The last 3 and a half years of it are called the great
tribulation, by Bible scholars
If you look at Daniel chapter 11 you will see in detail what happened during
the 69 weeks, or 69 times 7 years that Israel was punished before Messiah
came, and you will see in detail what will happen during week 70 which will
happen during the last 7 years till the end of the world. Daniel was given
this knowledge years later.
Starting in Daniel 11:2 and going through till Daniel 11:17, it is talking
about the reason for the trouble that happened to Israel during the 69 times
7 years before Messiah came. Israel was oppressed by Babylon, and then
Babylon was taken over by Medo Persia which was continuing to oppress Israel
at the time of the writing.
It starts by talking about the remaining kings to rule over Persia, and then
it shows that Greece would take over Persia, then Israel would be oppressed
by Greece. Then it talks about how the kingdom of Greece was divided after
Alexander the great (the mighty king in verse 3), and Greece was divided
into four parts under the rule of 4 of Alexander’s generals. Then it focuses
on two of these divisions. The King of the North and the King of the South.
The King of the South, Ptolemy Lagidae, who seized Egypt, on the death of
Alexander. The King of the North, Seleucus I, who seized Syria, Babylon and
Media. The Southern Kingdom continued till 30 BC when Rome took over Egypt.
The northern Kingdom lasted till 65 BC when Roman general Pompey reduced
Syria to a Roman province. From verse 11:5 till verse 11:17 it is talking
about wars between these two kingdoms. The King of the North, Syria, and the
King of the South, Egypt, and the descendents of these kings made wars back
and forth for 175 years (more or less). The king of the north refers to
any of these Syrian kings and king of the south refers to any of these
Egyptian kings, during all of those years. As these North and South empires
would have wars, they would march through palestine, back and forth and
opress the Jews. It is the wars between these two empires that brought the
Jews to poverty during all of this time, and when Rome took over Syria and
palestine, the Romans also oppressed the Jews. This fulfills the punishment
on the Jews and Jerusalem during the 69 weeks of punishment for iniquity,
spoken of in Daniel 9: 25. [There are two historical breaks in these
scriptures; Dan11:6- in the end of years; Dake says 65 years; and Dan.11:13-
after certain years; Dake say 14 years. I think this is the mistake; it is
much longer than that leading up to the time of Julius Caesar and Pompey.
Because the next verse talks about those standing up to Egypt which I think
is around the time Rome started to gain power, and Pompey was excercising
naval power.]
Focusing in on these scriptures in Dan. 11:
Daniel 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and
take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand,
neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.
Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious
land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his
whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall
give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on
his side, neither be for him.
Daniel 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall
take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered
by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon
him.
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
In verse 11:16, the Roman general Pompey comes against the King of the
North, antiochus XIII, of Syria, and he takes control over Syria and makes
it a Roman province. [Note: From here on a Roman ruler can be called king of
the north, and Rome is indeed to the north of Jerusalem.] Pompey also takes
Jerusalem, (the glorious land) during this same military campaign, of Pompey
66-61BC. Pompey then went back to Rome and became the head of the
conservative party in the Senate, controlling the Senate. Pompey and Julius
Caesar were the two rulers after the death of Crassus. Caesar was charged
with war crimes and ordered to give up control of his army. This offered a
reproach to Caesar, who broke with the Senate and marched his army back
toward Rome, starting a Civil war between Caesar and Pompey. Pompey ordered
a retreat and fled with his allies in the senate to the isles of Greece. I
believe this is what verse 11:18 is talking about. “After this” which means
some time went by, Pompey turned his face unto the isles and he took many
under his control there, while he built up a new army to fight with Caesar.
It says, “but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered
by him to cease”. I believe this is referring to Julius Caesar, (who was
acting on his own behalf because he had broke with the Senate and became
dictator), defeating Pompey at the battle of Pharsalus in 48 BC when Caesar’
s army met up with Pompey. So, Caesar caused the reproach offered by Pompey
to cease, like it says in verse 11:18. Pompey then fled to Egypt where he
was assasinated by the Egyptians. Julius Caesar was the first Roman ruler
that ruled the Roman political empire and that also had the title of
Pontifex Maximus, which is also the high priest and ruler of the Roman
religion. Every Roman emporer after Julius Caesar ruled both the Roman
political empire and was Pontifex Maximus ruling the Roman religion also.
This is the estate that Julius Caesar, and Caesar Augustus and every Roman
emporer occupied.
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
After spending a short time in Egypt, and a short time in Asia Minor. Caesar
then returned to Rome in Sept. of 47 BC. Caesar was assasinated while in
Rome.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Note: the word “then”, indicating the next one to occupy the estate.
Caesar Augustus was the next one to occupy the estate of being both Roman
emporer, head of the state, and Pontifex Maximus, head of the Roman
religion. Augustus raised two great taxings of the people. He died
peacefully and not in anger shortly after the second one. Note it says
taxes, plural, which could mean more than one taxing. The first of these
taxings was done when Joseph went to Bethelehem at the time of the birth of
Jesus.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree
from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Note the word “And”, which indicates that it could be a person that occupies
this estate at some future time. This vile person is the future Antichrist.
You can trace carefully what is said throughout the rest of Dan. 11 and see
that it is referring to the same man, and it goes to the time of the end of
the world, leading into chapter 12. Just like in Dan. 9 there is an
historical break of over 1900 years from the time of Jesus to the mentioning
of the Antichrist, in Dan. 11 there is a similar break from the time of
Augustus (Jesus was alive then, as a boy) to the antichrist, over 1900
years. The estate of ruler of the Roman empire (which is now the holy roman
empire) and ruler of the roman religion (pontifex maximus) passed on to the
popes of Rome. The Antichrist should be the last pope, or last Roman
pontiff.
Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from
before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully:
for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
This league made with him is referring to the covenant in Daniel 9:27, and
this verse also is referring to the abomination that makes desolate in Dan.
1131 and 12:11.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
So the events in Dan. 11 are a more detailed account of what already
happened in the 69 weeks in Dan. 9, and Dan 11 shows what will happen in
week 70, in Dan 9, when the antichrist is going to rule. Dan. 11:23 should
mark the beginning of the last 7 years till the end of the world, and the
events of those future 7 years go till the end of Dan 11 and some of it is
explained in Dan 12. Those events from Dan 11:23 onward should match up with
the events in Revelation, if you could see how they fit together.
Daniel 11 does not even speak of Antiochus Epiphanes at all. The scriptures
jump from Antiochus III, (called the Great) to Antiochus XIII, who reigned
after Antiochus Epiphanes. The jump in the scriptures is marked by a time
break in history in verse Dan. 11:13.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a
multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain
years with a great army and with much riches.
Those words "after certain years" are an unspecified time break in history.
He does not tell you how many years. Any of the Kings of Syria, that follow
can be called king of the North, who reigned after this time break started.
You need to find the particular King of Syria that fits with the rest of the
scriptures. I say it is Aniochus XIII, the one that was defeated by Roman
general Pompey. Dan. 11:16-20 fit well with this interpretation.
Raiser of Taxes in the glory of the Kingdom, verse 20, fits Caesar Augustus
very well. When Augustus reigned the Roman Empire had its greatest time of
peace and prosperity call Pax Romano. The Kingdom of Rome was glorious at
that time. The Bible scholars such as Dake, that hold the Antiochus
Epiphanes interpretation, try to say that the raiser of taxes was Seleucus
IV, King of Syria. His Kingdom was not glorious at that time and does not
fit with the scriptur. He needed tax money to pay off Rome in a war
indemnity. Also, he was assasinated and was killed in anger which
contradicts verse 20.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Refering to what I get out of Daniel 11 in the last week:
Daniel 11:23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work
deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small
people.
Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the
province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his
fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and
riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds,
even for a time.
Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the
king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not
stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
The Antichrist (the last pope) will use ten nations from the European Union
to give him the political and military power to try to conquer the world
militarily. Where it says, he shall forecst devices, it may be referring to
nuclear missiles, because much of the tribulation period in Revelation looks
like the effects cause by Nuclear war.
The king of the south in Daniel 11, as it applies
during the last 7 years, is probably referring to Egypt that will have an
alliance with other Moslem countries. So if the Antichrist is fighting Egypt
he is probably going to be fighting mostly all of the Moslems in the area.
It will be another war between catholicism and Islam only this time it will
use nuclear weapons and cause much more devastation.
he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy
covenant.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Have intelligence with them that forsake the covenant - to me that means
that Roman catholic Jews will have infiltrated the Israeli Govt., as spies,
and they will betray Israel to the forces of the antichrist (the European
Union) and they will take over Israel peacefully and treacherously without
needing to go to war with Israel. [The vatican has a very extensive
undercover organization with many spies that have infiltrated the news
media, entertainment industry and governments around the world, and also
other religions. All of those catholic spies take orders from the Jesuit
general.]
This will happen 3 and one half years before the end. Then the Antichrist is
going to make Jerusalem where he will rule from.
The vatican city in Rome will be destroyed, the
fall of Babylon in Revelation 17. Rome is probably destroyed to shift the
Antichrist's capital to Jerusalem. Perhaps catholicism will be destroyed
with it and a form of Beast or antichrist worship will be imposed on the
people. Many Jews will flee the area and be sheltered from the Antichrist
forces around Petra, and surrounding regions. The remainder of the Jews
left, in Israel and Jerusalem, will go through another Roman catholic
inquisition like the holocaust.
The two witnesses will witness against the Antichrist at Jerusalem, and be
killed and rise again. During all of this, last 3 and a half years, the
great natural disasters and plagues and punishiments spoken of in revelation
will be happening and many men will die.
The rapture of the church will take place with the resurection of the dead
Christians, (post tribulation), then the marriage supper of the lamb, then
Jesus and the saints return with angels to defeat the antichrist forces at
armageddon. [If angels pilot UFOs, then the second coming of Christ will be
a UFO invasion. The angels will be sent out to gather the sinners and throw
them in hell.] The thousand year reign of Christ will start.
That is an overvue of what I see happening in Daniel and Revelation during
the last 7 years.
I believe Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 will happen before the tribulation
period
starts. What is happening now in the middle east is leading up to the
prophecy in Ezekiel 38 and 39.
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| User: "u2 fan" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
31 Jan 2006 04:33:44 PM |
|
|
--
www.u2fan.org.uk
"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:43df9cb5_1@news1.uncensored-news.com...
I am posting this to correct what I think is an obvious and serious error
in
Bible prophecy interpretation of Dan. 11.
Dan.11:31, about the daily sacrifice taken away and the placing of the
abomination that makes desolate, is obviously the same thing spoken of in
Dan.12:11, where this is supposed to happen 1290 days from the end of the
world. Yet bible scholars say that it happened before 163 BC, when
antiochus
Epiphanes offered a swine upon the alter. This cannot be true, because
Jesus
said that this is a future prophecy that will happen at the time of the
end,
in Matt. 24:3 - 22. This obvious error comes from the apocryphal book
1Maccabees 1:44-50; Macc. 5:30,31. The appocryphal books contain errors
and
fiction that cannot be trusted that is why they were rejected for
establishing doctrine.
Agreed
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of
the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy
the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
The 70 weeks of punishment on Israel in Dan. 9 are shown in more detail in
Dan. 11.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that 70 weeks of punishment for iniquity
would
be visited upon Israel for her sins. That is referring to 70 weeks of
years
or 70 times 7 years. Dan. 9:24 shows these are years of punishment.
The first 69 years of this punishment on Israel happen before Messiah
comes.
Then it says that Messiah would be killed, Dan.9:26, and in the same verse
it tells that the people that the antichrist (the prince that shall come)
will come from, will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans did
that in 70AD. This shows that the antichrist will be a Roman prince or
ruler.
Don't agree,
Agreed that "prince" who comes will be the antichrist whom Christ defeats
upon his return.
The EU decendants of the Romans who you rightly say destroyed the temple in
70ad are not against Israel
Looking at history and even current events it is the arabs who want to "wipe
Israel off the map"
I believe the "people" of the prince who will come are people of the 10
kings who burn Israel with fire ( Arabs )
Iran's leader has vowed to give nukes to all arab states.
Yes the romans destroyed the temple in 70ad but we could well be talking
about the 3rd temple being destroyed not the 2nd temple, since Revelation 11
and 2 Thess 2 talk of the 3rd temple not the 2nd temple.
Notice, that there is an historical break of over 1900 years in that
one verse, going from the death of Jesus, to the prince that shall come,
the
antichrist. 69 of the 70 weeks of years had passed, and there is one 7
year
period of punishment on Israel left.
[The reason for this over 1900 year break in time is because as it says in
Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks are determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem.
It must be fulfilled when the Jews are a nation and living in Jerusalem.
From around AD 70 onward, the Jews were a scattered people and not a
nation
living at Jerusalem. So only the 69 weeks could be fulfilled till that
time.
In Dan. 9:26 it tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it says
desolations are determined. This is the period that Israel will be
desolate
for over 1900 years. Israel became a nation again in 1948 and got control
of
Jerusalem in 1967. Now the remaining last week of 7 years can be
fulfilled.
Week number 70.]
Agreed
Dan. 9:27 shows that this prince that shall come, the antichrist, will
make
a 7 year covenant with Israel, and in the middle of the 7 years, he will
cause the sacrifice and oblation that Israel offers to God to stop, and
for
the abominations, in those days, the antichrist shall make desolation or
destruction even until the end of the world. The time of that 7 year
covenant is the final 7 years till the end of the world called the
tribulation period. The last 3 and a half years of it are called the great
tribulation, by Bible scholars
Agreed
If you look at Daniel chapter 11 you will see in detail what happened
during
the 69 weeks, or 69 times 7 years that Israel was punished before Messiah
came, and you will see in detail what will happen during week 70 which
will
happen during the last 7 years till the end of the world. Daniel was given
this knowledge years later.
Starting in Daniel 11:2 and going through till Daniel 11:17, it is talking
about the reason for the trouble that happened to Israel during the 69
times
7 years before Messiah came. Israel was oppressed by Babylon, and then
Babylon was taken over by Medo Persia which was continuing to oppress
Israel
at the time of the writing.
It starts by talking about the remaining kings to rule over Persia, and
then
it shows that Greece would take over Persia, then Israel would be
oppressed
by Greece. Then it talks about how the kingdom of Greece was divided after
Alexander the great (the mighty king in verse 3), and Greece was divided
into four parts under the rule of 4 of Alexander's generals. Then it
focuses
on two of these divisions. The King of the North and the King of the
South.
The King of the South, Ptolemy Lagidae, who seized Egypt, on the death of
Alexander. The King of the North, Seleucus I, who seized Syria, Babylon
and
Media. The Southern Kingdom continued till 30 BC when Rome took over
Egypt.
The northern Kingdom lasted till 65 BC when Roman general Pompey reduced
Syria to a Roman province. From verse 11:5 till verse 11:17 it is talking
about wars between these two kingdoms. The King of the North, Syria, and
the
King of the South, Egypt, and the descendents of these kings made wars
back
and forth for 175 years (more or less). The king of the north refers to
any of these Syrian kings and king of the south refers to any of these
Egyptian kings, during all of those years. As these North and South
empires
would have wars, they would march through palestine, back and forth and
opress the Jews. It is the wars between these two empires that brought the
Jews to poverty during all of this time, and when Rome took over Syria and
palestine, the Romans also oppressed the Jews. This fulfills the
punishment
on the Jews and Jerusalem during the 69 weeks of punishment for iniquity,
spoken of in Daniel 9: 25. [There are two historical breaks in these
scriptures; Dan11:6- in the end of years; Dake says 65 years; and
Dan.11:13-
after certain years; Dake say 14 years. I think this is the mistake; it is
much longer than that leading up to the time of Julius Caesar and Pompey.
Because the next verse talks about those standing up to Egypt which I
think
is around the time Rome started to gain power, and Pompey was excercising
naval power.]
Focusing in on these scriptures in Dan. 11:
Daniel 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and
take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not
withstand,
neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to
withstand.
Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious
land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his
whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall
give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on
his side, neither be for him.
Daniel 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall
take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach
offered
by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon
him.
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither
in
anger, nor in battle.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
In verse 11:16, the Roman general Pompey comes against the King of the
North, antiochus XIII, of Syria, and he takes control over Syria and makes
it a Roman province. [Note: From here on a Roman ruler can be called king
of
the north, and Rome is indeed to the north of Jerusalem.] Pompey also
takes
Jerusalem, (the glorious land) during this same military campaign, of
Pompey
66-61BC. Pompey then went back to Rome and became the head of the
conservative party in the Senate, controlling the Senate. Pompey and
Julius
Caesar were the two rulers after the death of Crassus. Caesar was charged
with war crimes and ordered to give up control of his army. This offered a
reproach to Caesar, who broke with the Senate and marched his army back
toward Rome, starting a Civil war between Caesar and Pompey. Pompey
ordered
a retreat and fled with his allies in the senate to the isles of Greece.
I
believe this is what verse 11:18 is talking about. "After this" which
means
some time went by, Pompey turned his face unto the isles and he took many
under his control there, while he built up a new army to fight with
Caesar.
It says, "but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered
by him to cease". I believe this is referring to Julius Caesar, (who was
acting on his own behalf because he had broke with the Senate and became
dictator), defeating Pompey at the battle of Pharsalus in 48 BC when
Caesar'
s army met up with Pompey. So, Caesar caused the reproach offered by
Pompey
to cease, like it says in verse 11:18. Pompey then fled to Egypt where he
was assasinated by the Egyptians. Julius Caesar was the first Roman ruler
that ruled the Roman political empire and that also had the title of
Pontifex Maximus, which is also the high priest and ruler of the Roman
religion. Every Roman emporer after Julius Caesar ruled both the Roman
political empire and was Pontifex Maximus ruling the Roman religion also.
This is the estate that Julius Caesar, and Caesar Augustus and every Roman
emporer occupied.
Sound reasonable
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
After spending a short time in Egypt, and a short time in Asia Minor.
Caesar
then returned to Rome in Sept. of 47 BC. Caesar was assasinated while in
Rome.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither
in
anger, nor in battle.
Note: the word "then", indicating the next one to occupy the estate.
Caesar Augustus was the next one to occupy the estate of being both Roman
emporer, head of the state, and Pontifex Maximus, head of the Roman
religion. Augustus raised two great taxings of the people. He died
peacefully and not in anger shortly after the second one. Note it says
taxes, plural, which could mean more than one taxing. The first of these
taxings was done when Joseph went to Bethelehem at the time of the birth
of
Jesus.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree
from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Ok so far
Note the word "And", which indicates that it could be a person that
occupies
this estate at some future time. This vile person is the future
Antichrist.
You can trace carefully what is said throughout the rest of Dan. 11 and
see
that it is referring to the same man, and it goes to the time of the end
of
the world, leading into chapter 12. Just like in Dan. 9 there is an
historical break of over 1900 years from the time of Jesus to the
mentioning
of the Antichrist, in Dan. 11 there is a similar break from the time of
Augustus (Jesus was alive then, as a boy) to the antichrist, over 1900
years.
Ok
The estate of ruler of the Roman empire (which is now the holy roman
empire) and ruler of the roman religion (pontifex maximus) passed on to
the
popes of Rome. The Antichrist should be the last pope, or last Roman
pontiff.
Don't agree, again trying to mix it with rome doesn't fit to current events
Try looking to the nations around Israel and tell me one that doesn't want
to attack Israel.
Next ask your self does the Pope want to destroy Israel ? Answer is no.
Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from
before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully:
for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
This league made with him is referring to the covenant in Daniel 9:27, and
this verse also is referring to the abomination that makes desolate in
Dan.
1131 and 12:11.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
So the events in Dan. 11 are a more detailed account of what already
happened in the 69 weeks in Dan. 9, and Dan 11 shows what will happen in
week 70, in Dan 9, when the antichrist is going to rule. Dan. 11:23 should
mark the beginning of the last 7 years till the end of the world, and the
events of those future 7 years go till the end of Dan 11 and some of it is
explained in Dan 12. Those events from Dan 11:23 onward should match up
with
the events in Revelation, if you could see how they fit together.
Daniel 11 does not even speak of Antiochus Epiphanes at all. The
scriptures
jump from Antiochus III, (called the Great) to Antiochus XIII, who reigned
after Antiochus Epiphanes. The jump in the scriptures is marked by a time
break in history in verse Dan. 11:13.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a
multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain
years with a great army and with much riches.
Those words "after certain years" are an unspecified time break in
history.
He does not tell you how many years. Any of the Kings of Syria, that
follow
can be called king of the North, who reigned after this time break
started.
You need to find the particular King of Syria that fits with the rest of
the
scriptures. I say it is Aniochus XIII, the one that was defeated by Roman
general Pompey. Dan. 11:16-20 fit well with this interpretation.
Raiser of Taxes in the glory of the Kingdom, verse 20, fits Caesar
Augustus
very well. When Augustus reigned the Roman Empire had its greatest time of
peace and prosperity call Pax Romano. The Kingdom of Rome was glorious at
that time. The Bible scholars such as Dake, that hold the Antiochus
Epiphanes interpretation, try to say that the raiser of taxes was Seleucus
IV, King of Syria. His Kingdom was not glorious at that time and does not
fit with the scriptur. He needed tax money to pay off Rome in a war
indemnity. Also, he was assasinated and was killed in anger which
contradicts verse 20.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither
in
anger, nor in battle.
Refering to what I get out of Daniel 11 in the last week:
Daniel 11:23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work
deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small
people.
Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the
province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his
fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and
riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds,
even for a time.
Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the
king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not
stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
Reasonable
The Antichrist (the last pope) will use ten nations from the European
Union
to give him the political and military power to try to conquer the world
militarily. Where it says, he shall forecst devices, it may be referring
to
nuclear missiles, because much of the tribulation period in Revelation
looks
like the effects cause by Nuclear war.
A pope with nukes is crazy ! Arabs with nukes far more likely, they are far
more united than the EU.
Look at Iran, imagine it with nukes, every arab nation would want nukes. And
the arabs want to destroy Israel, the pope doesn't
The king of the south in Daniel 11, as it applies
during the last 7 years, is probably referring to Egypt that will have an
alliance with other Moslem countries. So if the Antichrist is fighting
Egypt
he is probably going to be fighting mostly all of the Moslems in the area.
It will be another war between catholicism and Islam only this time it
will
use nuclear weapons and cause much more devastation.
No way, the 10 arab kings fight Israel. Then the antichrist overpowers 3 of
the 10 kings.
he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the
holy
covenant.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Have intelligence with them that forsake the covenant - to me that means
that Roman catholic Jews will have infiltrated the Israeli Govt., as
spies,
and they will betray Israel to the forces of the antichrist (the European
Union) and they will take over Israel peacefully and treacherously without
needing to go to war with Israel. [The vatican has a very extensive
undercover organization with many spies that have infiltrated the news
media, entertainment industry and governments around the world, and also
other religions. All of those catholic spies take orders from the Jesuit
general.]
This will happen 3 and one half years before the end. Then the Antichrist
is
going to make Jerusalem where he will rule from.
The vatican city in Rome will be destroyed, the
fall of Babylon in Revelation 17. Rome is probably destroyed to shift the
Antichrist's capital to Jerusalem. Perhaps catholicism will be destroyed
with it and a form of Beast or antichrist worship will be imposed on the
people. Many Jews will flee the area and be sheltered from the Antichrist
forces around Petra, and surrounding regions. The remainder of the Jews
left, in Israel and Jerusalem, will go through another Roman catholic
inquisition like the holocaust.
Catholics are peaceful, Arabs with nukes are not.
Your theory simple pays no regard to history.
The two witnesses will witness against the Antichrist at Jerusalem, and be
killed and rise again. During all of this, last 3 and a half years, the
great natural disasters and plagues and punishiments spoken of in
revelation
will be happening and many men will die.
The rapture of the church will take place with the resurection of the dead
Christians, (post tribulation),
Agreed post trib rapture.
then the marriage supper of the lamb, then
Jesus and the saints return with angels to defeat the antichrist forces at
armageddon. [If angels pilot UFOs, then the second coming of Christ will
be
a UFO invasion. The angels will be sent out to gather the sinners and
throw
them in hell.]
UFO's no try horses.
The thousand year reign of Christ will start.
That is an overvue of what I see happening in Daniel and Revelation during
the last 7 years.
I believe Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 will happen before the tribulation
period
starts. What is happening now in the middle east is leading up to the
prophecy in Ezekiel 38 and 39.
Another common false Doctrine, Ezek 38 and 39 happen as it says in Rev 20,
after the 1000 years.
Ezek 37 is the reign of Jesus for the 1000 years.
Try reading it replacing the Pope with an Arab leader, and Ezek 38,39
without the EU and Russia. Suddenly it will make sense and everything will
fit perfectly.
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| User: "futurman" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
31 Jan 2006 06:46:02 PM |
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The king of the north and the king of the south:
In chapter eleven, it describes the battles between the King of
the South and the King of the North, which begin in the
Greco-Macedonian Era and proceed into the Greco-Roman Era; on through
the Republic of Rome; but ends at the Roman Empire under Augustus.
These are cryptic names for the kings, with no one king or kingdom in
particular named, and that because of the fluidity of those times; with
power changing hands at a rapid rate by many intrigues and changes of
loyalties; and many kings of dynasties of the north and of the south,
being involved over a period of three hundred years; and that by the
temptation, of the whole world being up for grabs. The Hellenistic Age
is the period between the death of Alexander the Great and the rise of
the Roman Empire under Augustus---from 323 BCE to 30 BCE. During these
three hundred years, Greek culture dominated much of the eastern
Mediterranean and the Middle East, and filtered on through the Romans;
some of which is still with us today. The battle between the two winds
ends with the King of the north, Augustus Caesar and the Republic,
seizing complete control over the Ptolemids, the last of the three
major players of those times. I will not condescend, to writing about
the particulars of the battles between the kings of the North and the
South, but anyone may do so at their liberty if they require more
confirmation on the issue.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
01 Feb 2006 07:52:28 AM |
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On 31 Jan 2006 17:21:57 GMT, "stone"
<antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> spake thusly:
The 70 weeks of punishment on Israel in Dan. 9 are shown in more detail in
Dan. 11.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that 70 weeks of punishment for iniquity would
be visited upon Israel for her sins. That is referring to 70 weeks of years
or 70 times 7 years. Dan. 9:24 shows these are years of punishment.
The first 69 years of this punishment on Israel happen before Messiah comes.
Then it says that Messiah would be killed, Dan.9:26, and in the same verse
it tells that the people that the antichrist (the prince that shall come)
will come from, will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans did
that in 70AD. This shows that the antichrist will be a Roman prince or
ruler.
So it was done in 70 AD and yet, "The AntiChrist"
has yet to come? That doesn't make sense.
The fact is, the "prince" is Christ, not some
AntiChrist and the Scripture already tells us
who the prince is, a couple of verses earlier.
God has used Gentile nations to destroy Jerusalem
before and in fact, God called Nebby "His servant",
so no, they do not have to be people who worship
God, to be "the people of the prince" and have them
be a foreign nation.
Notice, that there is an historical break of over
1900 years in that one verse, going from the death
of Jesus, to the prince that shall come, the antichrist.
69 of the 70 weeks of years had passed, and there is
one 7 year period of punishment on Israel left.
And the Bible says nothing about a 1900 year break
in time. And Daniel gives no cause to break it up.
You are reading what you want into history and
trying to wrap the Bible around it.
You have the Messiah being anointed and dying
on the same day. How so? Please, read on and
bear in mind, that we must read EACH AND EVERY
WORD of the Bible carefully, since even one word
can change the whole context of a passage. And
sometimes it is a word that is NOT there that changes
the context of the message, that people assume
the text is implying, when it isn't and we can see
this, if we study it CAREFULLY. :)
Take a read through this please and please keep
any objections in check, until you have read it all.
The most common objections that I know will pop
into your head as you read this, will be dealt with,
as you proceed through the message.
Daniel 9:25-27
25) Know therefore and understand, that from the
going forth of the commandment to restore and to
build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall
be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even
in troublous times.
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the
prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the
sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
You see, you read the first sentence in v26 and figure
that at the end of the 69th week, the Messiah is cut
off. But it doesn't say that. It says, "after", not
"immediately after" and it can't be "immediately after"
because if you read v25, it tells you, that "from the
going forth of the commandment... UNTO Messiah
the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and
two weeks".
In other words, it will be 69 weeks UNTIL the Messiah.
Now, if 69 weeks has to pass UNTIL the Messiah,
then that means that at the end of the 69 weeks,
the Messiah is anointed. So if He's "cut off" at the
end of the 69 weeks, as you propose, that means
that He is anointed and crucified on the same day.
That can't be right. :)
Therefore, you have to pay attention carefully to what
it is saying. Since He is obviously anointed before
being cut off, that means that what happens at the
end of 69 weeks, is that He's anointed. Then, AFTER
the 69 weeks (it doesn't say "immediately") He will be
cut off. So the end of the 69 weeks STARTS His
ministry. It does not END His ministry.
Also remember, the text calls Him, "Messiah THE PRINCE"
That is VERY IMPORTANT!
Now we look at v27...
27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many
for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall
cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and
for the overspreading of abominations he shall make
it desolate, even until the consummation, and that
determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now who is "he" in the beginning of this verse? Well,
who was it just talking about? "Messiah the Prince".
Why do people demand that Daniel switches gears
here mid thought? It's because of what they read
about "the people of the prince". They assume that
if it is discussing the Messiah, that they would have
to be either Christians, or Jews (or Jewish Christians)
and so to them, that can't be the Messiah's people,
so it must be talking about the AntiChrist. But that's
not true and no offense, it comes from ignorance of
the Old Testament. God used other nations to judge
His people many times in the past. It's all through
the Old Testament. Take a look for yourself...
Jeremiah 27:6-8
6) And now have I given all these lands into the hand
of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant;
and the beasts of the field have I given him also to
serve him.
7) And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and
his son's son, until the very time of his land come:
and then many nations and great kings shall serve
themselves of him.
8) And it shall come to pass, that the nation and
kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar
the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck
under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation
will I punish, saith the LORD, with the sword, and
with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have
consumed them by his hand.
Read CAREFULLY what it says there! GOD brought
this to pass and said that He would PUNISH any
nation that would not serve Nebuchadnezzar.
Babylon was, "the people of God" at that point,
for that purpose. GOG used a pagan nation as
His tool to judge His people with. That is VERY
IMPORTANT to remember as you read Daniel!
See Ezekiel also...
Ezekiel 30:24-25
24) And I will strengthen the arms of the king of
Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will
break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before
him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.
25) But I will strengthen the arms of the king of
Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down;
and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I
shall put my sword into the hand of the king of
Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land
of Egypt.
The fact is, linguistically, from the Hebrew, that
the "He" in v27 does not refer back to "the prince
who is to come" (which is not a different prince
anyway) of v26. The word "prince" is a subordinate
noun. "The people" is the dominant noun. Thus,
the "he" refers to the last dominant individual
mentioned (not the next). And in this case, again,
linguistically, the last dominant noun in the text, is
"the Messiah", the leading figure in the prophecy.
The destruction of the temple results from His
death and the destroyers are His armies (people),
the Romans. This is legal cause and judicial effect.
Matthew 22:2-7
2) The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,
which made a marriage for his son.
3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were
bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell
them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my
dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all
things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5) But they made light of it, and went their ways,
one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated
them spitefully, and slew them.
7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth:
and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those
murderers, and burned up their city.
Again, v26 merely says that "after" the 69 weeks,
He shall be cut off. As demonstrated, it can't be
immediately after and v27 is still talking about the
same "he" as in v26.
1) After 69 weeks the Messiah is anointed.
2) He is to confirm the covenant for one week.
Note that it says, "the covenant", because this
is a covenant that is already know to the people.
And the word translated as "confirm", actually
means, "make strong". "He will make strong
the covenant". What covenant? It is obviously
one already known to the reader, since no
description is given. It is the same covenant
that God made with His people already. The
Promise of the Messiah.
Now to look at it from your point of view, some
questions arise. For one thing, you need to
explain how "the AntiChrist", "makes strong
a covenant for one week", if he breaks it in the
middle of the week. That is a logical request,
is it not?
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith
the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they
shall be as white as snow; though they be red
like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18
The LORD says, that He and we should, "reason
together". And God is not illogical, so logic plays
a role. Is this not a logical question to ask, as to
how the AntiChrist could "make strong a covenant for
one week", if he breaks it in the middle of the week?
It doesn't simply say that he would "make a covenant".
No, that would be to invent a covenant. It says that
he will "make it strong" for a full week. And, as I
said, the text also shows that this is a covenant
already known to the reader. He doesn't invent
a covenant. He makes an already existing covenant
strong, according to the text. No, this is not
"the AntiChrist" that is being discussed here. It is
the Messiah. Daniel never says the word, "AntiChrist",
but he does say, "Messiah" and he even calls the
Messiah, "the prince". Yet you want me to believe
that a different prince comes under discussion,
even given the fact that Daniel never switches gears
and that linguistically, in the Hebrew, the text shows
that it is still the Messiah under discussion here.
Now I love the KJV. It is a great Bible. But the
English leaves the door open to a lot of insertion
of thoughts that the text doesn't actually say.
And frankly, most people who read the KJV haven't
taken the time to learn more about the sentence
and thought construction of the Elizabethan English
used for the translation, since even it doesn't allow
for a lot of what people read into their KJV's, of
their own personal doctrines, which comes from
ignorance of these things and a desire for the Bible
to be all about them, whether due to vanity, ego,
or just a fear of taking the dirt nap.
But anyway, what is it we are to "reason" about?
The text is clear. Our sins becoming "as wool".
This passage in Isaiah is about the promise of
the Messiah and that is what Daniel is dealing with.
The Messiah and His ministry, not some AntiChrist.
God said let us reason about the Messiah and
Daniel is talking about the Messiah, so certainly,
we need to reason this text out logically, which is
especially easy for us, given that it is in our past.
Again, wait before objecting. The focus is on the
wrong point in the text anyway, regarding this issue.
More on this later, in point #3.
You see, you are unknowingly doing a disservice to
the text. The text doesn't say that someone stops
making it strong in the middle of the week. It clearly
says that it WOULD BE made strong for one week.
Thus, it is impossible, according to the text, that
anyone break this covenant in the middle of the week.
This covenant is the covenant God made with His
people a long time before these events. Do not give
to some man, the same power as God.
What it says happens in the middle of the week, is
that sacrifice and oblation will cease. You take that
as a physical statement about a third temple, but in
reality, none of that is found in the text. See below.
After (which is all it says, not "immediately after")
the Messiah is anointed, the prophecy continues
and the 70 weeks are still rolling. They have to be,
or as I said, the Messiah is anointed and crucified
on the same day, at the end of 69 weeks.
Now, remembering what I said about reading every
word carefully and that even one word can change
the context of a reading, please take careful note
of point 3, below...
3) The other thing you miss and end up unknowingly
doing a disservice to the text with, is that you don't
focus on the right point. You say that the AntiChrist
will break the covenant in the middle of the week.
But the text does *NOT* say that "the covenant will
be cut off in the middle of the week". It says that
*_HE_* will be cut off in the middle of the week. So
it is NOT about "the AntiChrist" breaking a covenant.
It is about the PERSON being cut off in the middle
of the week, NOT the covenant! The text clearly says
that the covenant was to be made strong for one week,
not a half of a week. Surely God knew what He wanted
to say. :)
Now that we know that the Messiah was anointed
at the end of the 69th week and that it is the person
who is cut off in the middle of the week and not a
covenant being broken, the fact remains, that the
covenant must be made strong for one full week
and the Messiah is alive and well on Earth, just
beginning His ministry, at the end of the 69th week.
The Messiah begins His ministry when the 70th
week begins. His ministry is 3 1/2 years and then
He is crucified. That's why it says He would be
"cut off, BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF".
You see, if it were "the AntiChrist", then he WOULD
BE cut off FOR HIMSELF... for what he was doing.
But that's not what it says. It says that this person
would be cut off, but... "*NOT* for himself".
Remembering that it is the person who is cut off
and not the covenant, we must acknowledge that
when the Messiah was crucified, He was... "cut off,
BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF".
He was cut off for OUR SINS! The Messiah was
the ONLY ONE who could fulfill this text, because
He was the only one who could be cut off and it
wouldn't be because of anything HE did!
4) So the Messiah carries out His ministry for
3 1/2 years and then He is "cut off". This is where
the "sacrifices and oblations cease". This is a
spiritual statement and a physical statement.
Physically, the Apostles and the disciples they
made, ceased to sacrifice animals for sin.
Spiritually, they were useless after Jesus died and
rose. They became an abomination to God, because
to continue the sacrifices, is to spit in the face of
God and tell Him that what he did by His Son, meant
nothing at all.
But don't forget, the covenant must be confirmed
for 3 1/2 more years, to complete the whole week
that the text says the covenant must be confirmed
for and the covenant was with the Jews. Jesus even
said He was here to confirm the covenant. Not in
those exact words I'll grant you, but it is certainly
clear from the following statement by Him, while
He was alive here on Earth, in the first half of the
last week of Daniel's prophecy...
"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house
of Israel." - Matthew 15:24
As for the 2nd half of the week, Christ "made strong
the covenant with the Jews through the Apostles,
who ministered to the Jews for the first 3 1/2 years.
That is clear from checking the time line in the book
of Acts.
At the end of that second 3 1/2 years, the last week
is fulfilled and the covenant has been "made strong"
for the full week. Let's not forget, the covenant
between God and His people, was about the coming
Messiah and the kingdom of God.
Now I know that you believe this Kingdom is physical
and literal, but I do not. because of what Jesus said
and I know the Bible doesn't contradict itself. I also
do not take the fantastic literally and then try to
wrap clear simple statements around them. We should
take the clear simple statements as they read and then
see if taking the fantastic literally matches up and if
not, then we need to take the fantastic statements
symbolically. So what did Jesus say about the Kingdom?
Folks are making the same mistake as the Pharisees
did, when they demanded that the Scriptures be
about an Earthly victory. Yet Jesus showed us that
the Messiah would suffer. He did not come to be a
political, Earthly ruler. What did Jesus say about the
Kingdom of God, after all?
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come, he answered
them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
Note that the Pharisees wanted to know when
the Kingdom of God would come to the Earth.
Now what was Jesus' response???
"The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION".
I.e., YOU WON'T SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES! :)
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
They WON'T say, "look here, or look there"!
The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU. It is NOT a new
literal, physical kingdom set up after the destruction
of heaven and earth.
Now either what Jesus said is true, or the Bible
contradicts itself and folks are taking the fantastic
things literally and physically, instead of taking them
symbolically, which is how they're meant.
5) Well, what about the "desolations" that Daniel
spoke of? How are those accounted for in this
scenario?
Again, we must read every word of the Bible carefully.
It says, "and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate".
It says, "shall make". It does not say, "shall
immediately make".
It also says... "and the people of the prince that
shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto
the end of the war desolations are determined."
It says that "desolations are DETERMINED" within
the 70 weeks. It does not say, "carried out". Thus,
the "desolations" do NOT happen WITHIN the
70 weeks. They are merely DETERMINED to
happen within the 70 weeks, by God.
And we should note, that the text also says that the
desolations are determined to happen "unto the end
of the war". What war? The same war that happened
when "the people of the Prince" were to come and did
come, in 70 AD. It says clearly there, "they shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary". That is a LOCAL
EVENT, NOT A WORLD WIDE EVENT. It is about
Jerusalem and the only other thing Jesus included,
was Judea, because that's the way the army would
come, to get to Jerusalem.
Look at Jesus' words, while in the temple, when He was
blasting the Pharisees...
Matthew 23:36-38
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come
upon this generation.
37) O JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, THOU that killest
the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto
THEE, how often would I have gathered THY children
together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens
under her wings, and YE would not!
38) Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU *DESOLATE*.
He says specifically, "Jerusalem". And He says
specifically that it is "their house" that is to be
"left to them desolate".
As Daniel said, desolations were DETERMINED.
Jesus said Jerusalem would be destroyed. Jesus
prophesied a LOCAL judgment, that would have
world wide implications. Read what He said and
compare it with Daniel's prophecy...
Daniel: "they shall destroy the city and the
sanctuary"
Jesus: "Behold your house (temple) is left to you
desolate." - Matthew 23:38
Jesus: Luke 21:20-22
20) And when ye shall see JERUSALEM compassed
with armies, then know that the DESOLATION THEREOF
is nigh.
21) Then let them which are IN JUDEA flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the MIDST OF IT
depart out; and let not them that are in the countries
enter thereinto.
22) For THESE BE THE DAYS of vengeance, that ALL
THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
Jesus said that when Jerusalem is compassed
by armies and is desolated, all things that are
written are fulfilled. Daniel was something that
"was written", btw. :)
"See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you,
There shall not be left here one stone upon another,
that shall not be thrown down." - Matthew 24:2
It is a fact that in 70AD, Rome burned down the temple
and afterward, pried every stone apart, to retrieve the
melted gold that ran in between them. There was quite
a bit of it. The doors alone were 40 ft high and
covered in gold.
Now why doesn't this count? Why doesn't a direct, to
the letter fulfillment of His words count? Even though
this happened in the first century, that doesn't count,
right? Jerusalem is surrounded and destroyed. Jesus
said that there would not be one stone left upon
another in the temple and that happened. But that
one doesn't count, because it's not about you?
Daniel dealt with the Messianic times and Jesus said
that He would return within the time of the generation
alive at the time.
Matthew 16:27-28
27) For the Son of man shall COME in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall REWARD EVERY
MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
Now note Revelation...
"And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my REWARD is with me,
to give EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE."
- Revelation 22:12
Same wording and He said, "QUICKLY". And He meant
quickly. When you try to claim that a word can mean
any amount of time, then you make it mean nothing at
all and Jesus wasn't about saying nothing.
Now note the very next verse in Matthew 16...
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
Note: Some of those STANDING THERE would not die
before it happened. That means at least one will be
alive, but not most. He said, "some".
No, it isn't the Transfiguration. That was eight days
later and they were all still alive.
No, it wasn't Pentecost. Only one was dead, which
would mean that most were still alive and Jesus said
"some" would still be alive.
Anything you say that tries to contradict those facts,
is just pitting the Bible against itself. Posting this
passage or that passage, without first explaining
why Jesus' words don't mean what they clearly say
(remember, we shouldn't try to wrap the clear, simple
statements around our personal interpretation of the
more difficult, fantastic ones) is to ignore half of
what Jesus said and it is to make a scenario in which
He contradicts Himself.
The fact is, Daniel said there would be four kingdoms
and that Christ's Kingdom would be set up in the days
of those kings (Daniel 2:44). No breaks are mentioned
and four kingdoms have existed and have gone.
There is no cause at all to insert a break and it is
CERTAIN that Daniel did NOT.
Daniel based his prophecy in part on the time frame
that Jeremiah used and there were no breaks in that.
If I told you that in 7 days, I would be arriving at
your house and I showed up 4 years later, are you
trying to tell me that I kept my word, because a
third party said, "Oh, you needed to insert a break
after 6 days and that break could be any amount
of time" ???
I don't think so and we both know that's load of crap.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
In the beginning, God created...
And He did it in six days and said He did it in six
days (Exodus 20:11). Jesus believed that and
referenced it, in Matthew 19:3-8 and in other places.
The original Hebrew word for "day" ("yom"), is never
used to mean anything but a literal day in the Bible,
when a numerical adjective is present ("second, third,
etc.). Are we to believe that this is somehow the
one exception?
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
31 Jan 2006 11:37:54 AM |
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The following quotes show just how far the churches of today have strayed
from the wisdom of their founding fathers.
Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and
real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other
obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from "The
Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 2, pg. 121 by Froom.
John Calvin
(1509-1564) (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman
pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that
they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom
we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's
words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that
which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.
Cotton Mather
(1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian
Church; and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist
are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see
it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from "The Fall of
Babylon" by Cotton Mather in Froom's book "The Prophetic Faith of Our
Fathers," Vol. 3, pg. 113.
John Knox
(1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many
ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as
"the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from
"The Zurich Letters" pg. 199 by John Knox.
Thomas Cranmer
(1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be
very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures,
old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and
Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.
John Wesley
(1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of
Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too,
properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of
numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that
exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is
worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the
prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten
Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.
Roger William
(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as
God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is
called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over
the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking
against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the
son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our
Fathers" by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.
Quoted from GREAT PROPHECIES OF THE BIBLE by Woodrow.
©1984-2001 Chick Publications, Inc. All rights reserved
You can add to those names these men that thought the pope is an antichrist:
Wycliff, Tyndale, Sir Isaac Newton, Fox, Finney, Moody, Spurgeon.
Pope's title, Vicar of Christ, means antichrist by definition.
JESUS CHRIST HAS NO VlCAR. Vicar, from the Latin "vicarius" means "in the
place of" e.g. vicarius sacrifice of Christ being His sacrifice in the place
of the sinner. Papal claims such as infallibility, Head of the Church, Holy
Father, all seek to put the Pope in the place of Christ, which place only
the Living Christ can have. This false assumption of Rome is expressly put
forward in the Papal title "Vicar of Jesus Christ".
The New Testament was written in Greek, and the Greek translation of " vicar
of Christ" is "Anti (instead of)-christos", or in our English Bible,
"Antichrist". The word "Antichrist" is not just a word of wild insult, but
is a Bible warning of the false role assumed by the Popes of Rome as
supposed vicars of Christ, (See 1 John 2:18 D.V.).
The Greek word for "Vice President" is "Anti-Proedros"; Because Anti, which
means opposite, also means "replacement" or "instead", as in Vicar or
Viceroy or Vicarious.
_______________________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Ian Zech" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
31 Jan 2006 03:38:59 PM |
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"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:43dfa072_6@news1.uncensored-news.com...
The following quotes show just how far the churches of today have strayed
from the wisdom of their founding fathers.
Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
Why are you surprised? The kind of futurist horseshit you post came from
American bowels. Most Protes-ant fundi-mental-ist pews are painted with that
same kind of ***** and it smells. People like you sould be locked up. You are
a danger to society.
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| User: "stone" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
03 Feb 2006 01:59:02 PM |
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Top posting:
I made a mistake in the original post. The man that Pompey conquered was
Tigranes. He matches the scriptures in Daniel, better than Antiochus XIII.
Seleucus IV was already paying taxes to Rome, many years before Pompey
entered the land. Tigranes, King of Armenia, came down from the north and
took over Syria. He was wealthy and a conqueror. He became king of the north
when he took over Syria. This effectively ended the rule of the Seleucids in
Syria, but a few small cities still regarded Antiochus XIII as king, even
though Tigranes was really in power. Sulla, of Rome, started to defeat him
and Pompey finished his defeat. Tigranes surrendered to Pompey. Antiochus
XIII was allowed to rule for a few years, but his brother made civil war
with him to try to take over the throne, so Pompey had Antiochus XIII killed
and then made Syria a Roman province, in 64 B C.
Starting with Dan. 11:10
Daniel 11:10 But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a
multitude of great forces: and [one] shall certainly come, and overflow, and
pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, [even] to his
fortress.
The sons of Seleucus II, -- Seleucus III and Antiochus the great. Seleucus
III was poisoned and Antiochus the great took over. He warred against Egypt
and retook Selucia and regained Syria.
Daniel 11:11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall
come forth and fight with him, [even] with the king of the north: and he
shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his
hand.
Daniel 11:12 [And] when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be
lifted up; and he shall cast down [many] ten thousands: but he shall not be
strengthened [by it].
Ptolemy Philopater of Egypt, defeated Antiochus in the battle of Raphia,
near Gaza. He became greatly exalted and oppressed many people. He was not
exalted due to the constant decline of the Egyptian Kingdom.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a
multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain
years with a great army and with much riches.
[ “After certain years” indicates a time passage of an unspecified amount of
time. To match the scriptures to historical kings, you must find the rulers
in these regions that fit the scriptures after this time break.]
Daniel 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king
of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to
establish the vision; but they shall fall.
Seleucid Kingdom was getting weaker in their history. Tigranes King of
Armenia invaded the land of Syria, and took control of it. He became the
king of the North and he had great riches. Conquering land down to
Ptolemais.
Verse 11:14 seems to show that both the Egyptian and Syrian Kingdoms were in
decline, and the Seleucid Kingdom would fall, and it did when Tigranes, King
of Armenia took over and became King of the North.
Daniel 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and
take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand,
neither his chosen people, neither [shall there be any] strength to
withstand.
Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious
land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Verse 11:16 is where Pompey comes against Tigranes, and Tigranes surrenders
to him. Syria is taken over by Rome. Pompey then goes into Judea and
conquers Jerusalem (the glorious land).
stone wrote in message <43df9cb5_1@news1.uncensored-news.com>...
I am posting this to correct what I think is an obvious and serious error
in
Bible prophecy interpretation of Dan. 11.
Dan.11:31, about the daily sacrifice taken away and the placing of the
abomination that makes desolate, is obviously the same thing spoken of in
Dan.12:11, where this is supposed to happen 1290 days from the end of the
world. Yet bible scholars say that it happened before 163 BC, when
antiochus
Epiphanes offered a swine upon the alter. This cannot be true, because
Jesus
said that this is a future prophecy that will happen at the time of the
end,
in Matt. 24:3 – 22. This obvious error comes from the apocryphal book
1Maccabees 1:44-50; Macc. 5:30,31. The appocryphal books contain errors and
fiction that cannot be trusted that is why they were rejected for
establishing doctrine.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy
the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
The 70 weeks of punishment on Israel in Dan. 9 are shown in more detail in
Dan. 11.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that 70 weeks of punishment for iniquity
would
be visited upon Israel for her sins. That is referring to 70 weeks of years
or 70 times 7 years. Dan. 9:24 shows these are years of punishment.
The first 69 years of this punishment on Israel happen before Messiah
comes.
Then it says that Messiah would be killed, Dan.9:26, and in the same verse
it tells that the people that the antichrist (the prince that shall come)
will come from, will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans did
that in 70AD. This shows that the antichrist will be a Roman prince or
ruler. Notice, that there is an historical break of over 1900 years in that
one verse, going from the death of Jesus, to the prince that shall come,
the
antichrist. 69 of the 70 weeks of years had passed, and there is one 7 year
period of punishment on Israel left.
[The reason for this over 1900 year break in time is because as it says in
Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks are determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem.
It must be fulfilled when the Jews are a nation and living in Jerusalem.
From around AD 70 onward, the Jews were a scattered people and not a nation
living at Jerusalem. So only the 69 weeks could be fulfilled till that
time.
In Dan. 9:26 it tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it says
desolations are determined. This is the period that Israel will be desolate
for over 1900 years. Israel became a nation again in 1948 and got control
of
Jerusalem in 1967. Now the remaining last week of 7 years can be fulfilled.
Week number 70.]
Dan. 9:27 shows that this prince that shall come, the antichrist, will make
a 7 year covenant with Israel, and in the middle of the 7 years, he will
cause the sacrifice and oblation that Israel offers to God to stop, and for
the abominations, in those days, the antichrist shall make desolation or
destruction even until the end of the world. The time of that 7 year
covenant is the final 7 years till the end of the world called the
tribulation period. The last 3 and a half years of it are called the great
tribulation, by Bible scholars
If you look at Daniel chapter 11 you will see in detail what happened
during
the 69 weeks, or 69 times 7 years that Israel was punished before Messiah
came, and you will see in detail what will happen during week 70 which will
happen during the last 7 years till the end of the world. Daniel was given
this knowledge years later.
Starting in Daniel 11:2 and going through till Daniel 11:17, it is talking
about the reason for the trouble that happened to Israel during the 69
times
7 years before Messiah came. Israel was oppressed by Babylon, and then
Babylon was taken over by Medo Persia which was continuing to oppress
Israel
at the time of the writing.
It starts by talking about the remaining kings to rule over Persia, and
then
it shows that Greece would take over Persia, then Israel would be oppressed
by Greece. Then it talks about how the kingdom of Greece was divided after
Alexander the great (the mighty king in verse 3), and Greece was divided
into four parts under the rule of 4 of Alexander’s generals. Then it
focuses
on two of these divisions. The King of the North and the King of the South.
The King of the South, Ptolemy Lagidae, who seized Egypt, on the death of
Alexander. The King of the North, Seleucus I, who seized Syria, Babylon and
Media. The Southern Kingdom continued till 30 BC when Rome took over Egypt.
The northern Kingdom lasted till 65 BC when Roman general Pompey reduced
Syria to a Roman province. From verse 11:5 till verse 11:17 it is talking
about wars between these two kingdoms. The King of the North, Syria, and
the
King of the South, Egypt, and the descendents of these kings made wars back
and forth for 175 years (more or less). The king of the north refers to
any of these Syrian kings and king of the south refers to any of these
Egyptian kings, during all of those years. As these North and South empires
would have wars, they would march through palestine, back and forth and
opress the Jews. It is the wars between these two empires that brought the
Jews to poverty during all of this time, and when Rome took over Syria and
palestine, the Romans also oppressed the Jews. This fulfills the punishment
on the Jews and Jerusalem during the 69 weeks of punishment for iniquity,
spoken of in Daniel 9: 25. [There are two historical breaks in these
scriptures; Dan11:6- in the end of years; Dake says 65 years; and
Dan.11:13-
after certain years; Dake say 14 years. I think this is the mistake; it is
much longer than that leading up to the time of Julius Caesar and Pompey.
Because the next verse talks about those standing up to Egypt which I think
is around the time Rome started to gain power, and Pompey was excercising
naval power.]
Focusing in on these scriptures in Dan. 11:
Daniel 11:15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and
take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand,
neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to
withstand.
Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own
will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious
land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his
whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall
give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on
his side, neither be for him.
Daniel 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall
take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered
by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon
him.
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
In verse 11:16, the Roman general Pompey comes against the King of the
North, Tigranes, of Syria, and he takes control over Syria. [Note: From
here on a Roman ruler can be called king of
the north, and Rome is indeed to the north of Jerusalem.] Pompey also takes
Jerusalem, (the glorious land) during this same military campaign, of
Pompey
66-61BC. Pompey then went back to Rome and became the head of the
conservative party in the Senate, controlling the Senate. Pompey and Julius
Caesar were the two rulers after the death of Crassus. Caesar was charged
with war crimes and ordered to give up control of his army. This offered a
reproach to Caesar, who broke with the Senate and marched his army back
toward Rome, starting a Civil war between Caesar and Pompey. Pompey ordered
a retreat and fled with his allies in the senate to the isles of Greece. I
believe this is what verse 11:18 is talking about. “After this” which means
some time went by, Pompey turned his face unto the isles and he took many
under his control there, while he built up a new army to fight with Caesar.
It says, “but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered
by him to cease”. I believe this is referring to Julius Caesar, (who was
acting on his own behalf because he had broke with the Senate and became
dictator), defeating Pompey at the battle of Pharsalus in 48 BC when Caesar
’
s army met up with Pompey. So, Caesar caused the reproach offered by Pompey
to cease, like it says in verse 11:18. Pompey then fled to Egypt where he
was assasinated by the Egyptians. Julius Caesar was the first Roman ruler
that ruled the Roman political empire and that also had the title of
Pontifex Maximus, which is also the high priest and ruler of the Roman
religion. Every Roman emporer after Julius Caesar ruled both the Roman
political empire and was Pontifex Maximus ruling the Roman religion also.
This is the estate that Julius Caesar, and Caesar Augustus and every Roman
emporer occupied.
Daniel 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land:
but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
After spending a short time in Egypt, and a short time in Asia Minor.
Caesar
then returned to Rome in Sept. of 47 BC. Caesar was assasinated while in
Rome.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Note: the word “then”, indicating the next one to occupy the estate.
Caesar Augustus was the next one to occupy the estate of being both Roman
emporer, head of the state, and Pontifex Maximus, head of the Roman
religion. Augustus raised two great taxings of the people. He died
peacefully and not in anger shortly after the second one. Note it says
taxes, plural, which could mean more than one taxing. The first of these
taxings was done when Joseph went to Bethelehem at the time of the birth of
Jesus.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree
from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they
shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably,
and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Note the word “And”, which indicates that it could be a person that
occupies
this estate at some future time. This vile person is the future Antichrist.
You can trace carefully what is said throughout the rest of Dan. 11 and see
that it is referring to the same man, and it goes to the time of the end of
the world, leading into chapter 12. Just like in Dan. 9 there is an
historical break of over 1900 years from the time of Jesus to the
mentioning
of the Antichrist, in Dan. 11 there is a similar break from the time of
Augustus (Jesus was alive then, as a boy) to the antichrist, over 1900
years. The estate of ruler of the Roman empire (which is now the holy roman
empire) and ruler of the roman religion (pontifex maximus) passed on to the
popes of Rome. The Antichrist should be the last pope, or last Roman
pontiff.
Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from
before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully:
for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
This league made with him is referring to the covenant in Daniel 9:27, and
this verse also is referring to the abomination that makes desolate in Dan.
1131 and 12:11.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
So the events in Dan. 11 are a more detailed account of what already
happened in the 69 weeks in Dan. 9, and Dan 11 shows what will happen in
week 70, in Dan 9, when the antichrist is going to rule. Dan. 11:23 should
mark the beginning of the last 7 years till the end of the world, and the
events of those future 7 years go till the end of Dan 11 and some of it is
explained in Dan 12. Those events from Dan 11:23 onward should match up
with
the events in Revelation, if you could see how they fit together.
Daniel 11 does not even speak of Antiochus Epiphanes at all. The scriptures
jump from Antiochus III, (called the Great) to Antiochus XIII, who reigned
after Antiochus Epiphanes. The jump in the scriptures is marked by a time
break in history in verse Dan. 11:13.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a
multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain
years with a great army and with much riches.
Those words "after certain years" are an unspecified time break in history.
He does not tell you how many years. Any of the Kings of Syria, that follow
can be called king of the North, who reigned after this time break started.
You need to find the particular King of Syria that fits with the rest of
the
scriptures. I say it is Tigranes, the one that was defeated by Roman
general Pompey. Dan. 11:16-20 fit well with this interpretation.
Raiser of Taxes in the glory of the Kingdom, verse 20, fits Caesar Augustus
very well. When Augustus reigned the Roman Empire had its greatest time of
peace and prosperity call Pax Romano. The Kingdom of Rome was glorious at
that time. The Bible scholars such as Dake, that hold the Antiochus
Epiphanes interpretation, try to say that the raiser of taxes was Seleucus
IV, King of Syria. His Kingdom was not glorious at that time and does not
fit with the scriptur. He needed tax money to pay off Rome in a war
indemnity. Also, he was assasinated and was killed in anger which
contradicts verse 20.
Daniel 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes [in] the
glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in
anger, nor in battle.
Refering to what I get out of Daniel 11 in the last week:
Daniel 11:23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work
deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small
people.
Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the
province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his
fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and
riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds,
even for a time.
Daniel 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the
king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be
stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not
stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
The Antichrist (the last pope) will use ten nations from the European Union
to give him the political and military power to try to conquer the world
militarily. Where it says, he shall forecst devices, it may be referring to
nuclear missiles, because much of the tribulation period in Revelation
looks
like the effects cause by Nuclear war.
The king of the south in Daniel 11, as it applies
during the last 7 years, is probably referring to Egypt that will have an
alliance with other Moslem countries. So if the Antichrist is fighting
Egypt
he is probably going to be fighting mostly all of the Moslems in the area.
It will be another war between catholicism and Islam only this time it will
use nuclear weapons and cause much more devastation.
he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy
covenant.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Have intelligence with them that forsake the covenant - to me that means
that Roman catholic Jews will have infiltrated the Israeli Govt., as spies,
and they will betray Israel to the forces of the antichrist (the European
Union) and they will take over Israel peacefully and treacherously without
needing to go to war with Israel. [The vatican has a very extensive
undercover organization with many spies that have infiltrated the news
media, entertainment industry and governments around the world, and also
other religions. All of those catholic spies take orders from the Jesuit
general.]
This will happen 3 and one half years before the end. Then the Antichrist
is
going to make Jerusalem where he will rule from.
The vatican city in Rome will be destroyed, the
fall of Babylon in Revelation 17. Rome is probably destroyed to shift the
Antichrist's capital to Jerusalem. Perhaps catholicism will be destroyed
with it and a form of Beast or antichrist worship will be imposed on the
people. Many Jews will flee the area and be sheltered from the Antichrist
forces around Petra, and surrounding regions. The remainder of the Jews
left, in Israel and Jerusalem, will go through another Roman catholic
inquisition like the holocaust.
The two witnesses will witness against the Antichrist at Jerusalem, and be
killed and rise again. During all of this, last 3 and a half years, the
great natural disasters and plagues and punishiments spoken of in
revelation
will be happening and many men will die.
The rapture of the church will take place with the resurection of the dead
Christians, (post tribulation), then the marriage supper of the lamb, then
Jesus and the saints return with angels to defeat the antichrist forces at
armageddon. [If angels pilot UFOs, then the second coming of Christ will be
a UFO invasion. The angels will be sent out to gather the sinners and throw
them in hell.] The thousand year reign of Christ will start.
That is an overvue of what I see happening in Daniel and Revelation during
the last 7 years.
I believe Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 will happen before the tribulation
period
starts. What is happening now in the middle east is leading up to the
prophecy in Ezekiel 38 and 39.
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| User: "Ian Zech" |
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| Title: Re: Dan. 9 & 11 Antichrist and the tribulation |
31 Jan 2006 03:33:51 PM |
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Try again, your ***** still smells. Back to the drawing board, square 1.
When is this idiot going to realize that this 70 week ***** makes no sense?
"stone" <antiaging@ineedhits-mail.com> wrote in message
news:43df9cb5_1@news1.uncensored-news.com...
I am posting this to correct what I think is an obvious and serious error
in
Bible prophecy interpretation of Dan. 11.
Dan.11:31, about the daily sacrifice taken away and the placing of the
abomination that makes desolate, is obviously the same thing spoken of in
Dan.12:11, where this is supposed to happen 1290 days from the end of the
world. Yet bible scholars say that it happened before 163 BC, when
antiochus
Epiphanes offered a swine upon the alter. This cannot be true, because
Jesus
said that this is a future prophecy that will happen at the time of the
end,
in Matt. 24:3 - 22. This obvious error comes from the apocryphal book
1Maccabees 1:44-50; Macc. 5:30,31. The appocryphal books contain errors
and
fiction that cannot be trusted that is why they were rejected for
establishing doctrine.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy
city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make
reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of
the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but
not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy
the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and
in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to
cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate,
even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
The 70 weeks of punishment on Israel in Dan. 9 are shown in more detail in
Dan. 11.
The angel Gabriel told Daniel that 70 weeks of punishment for iniquity
would
be visited upon Israel for her sins. That is referring to 70 weeks of
years
or 70 times 7 years. Dan. 9:24 shows these are years of punishment.
The first 69 years of this punishment on Israel happen before Messiah
comes.
Then it says that Messiah would be killed, Dan.9:26, and in the same verse
it tells that the people that the antichrist (the prince that shall come)
will come from, will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans did
that in 70AD. This shows that the antichrist will be a Roman prince or
ruler. Notice, that there is an historical break of over 1900 years in
that
one verse, going from the death of Jesus, to the prince that shall come,
the
antichrist. 69 of the 70 weeks of years had passed, and there is one 7
year
period of punishment on Israel left.
[The reason for this over 1900 year break in time is because as it says in
Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks are determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem.
It must be fulfilled when the Jews are a nation and living in Jerusalem.
From around AD 70 onward, the Jews were a scattered people and not a
nation
living at Jerusalem. So only the 69 weeks could be fulfilled till that
time.
In Dan. 9:26 it tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and it says
desolations are determined. This is the period that Israel will be
desolate
for over 1900 years. Israel became a nation again in 1948 and got control
of
Jerusalem in 1967. Now the remaining last week of 7 years can be
fulfilled.
Week number 70.]
Dan. 9:27 shows that this prince that shall come, the antichrist, will
make
a 7 year covenant with Israel, and in the middle of the 7 years, he will
cause the sacrifice and oblation that Israel offers to God to stop, and
for
the abominations, in those days, the antichrist shall make desolation or
destruction even until the end of the world. The time of that 7 year
covenant is the final 7 years til | |