| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ananias917" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2005 12:04:48 PM |
| Object: |
Daniel's "AIR" ! |
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:51:47 -0600, "Daniel & Annette
Halligan" <Penguin@cybrzn.com> spake thusly:
I am going to lay out the proof in this message
(which I have combined from your other responses
to me, into this one message), that you have lied
that the word does indeed mean what I said it does.
Btw, here is the Strong's entry again and my original
statement of what I am saying, snipped down for
brevity and then I will proceed with the message...
***PART OF MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT BEGIN***
The Greeks had more than one word, that translates
into the English word, "air".
Now, if that air was the air in the sky, he would have
used a different word.
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and
the birds of the air (ouranos) have nests; but the Son
of man hath not where to lay his head." - Matthew 8:20
Ouranos = air - (the idea of elevation); the sky; by
extension heaven (as the abode of God)
But instead, Paul used a different word...
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air (aer): and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Aer = air - (to breathe unconsciously, that is,
respire; by analogy to blow); air (as naturally
circumambient)
The original Greek word used in this verse, does not
mean the air we look up and see way up in the sky, but
rather, it implies our breath and the air immediately
surrounding us. The transliterated word is "aer" and
means... to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by
analogy to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
Circumambient = Encompassing on all sides; surrounding.
It is discussing the air that we are breathing and that
which is immediately surrounding us (in Jewish thought,
up to about 10 feet around us and remember, they wrote
in Greek, but they were Jews). Will the end timers now
change their claim and say that Jesus would appear for
everyone to see, right in front of them (within 10 feet
of them), at the same time, since that is what would be
necessary for everyone to see Him at the same time?
Will there be 6 billion copies of Jesus, so that
everyone can see Him at the same time, in the "air"
that the verse actually describes? In order to stick
with the type of approach they use for this verse, they
must, in order to be honest about it, change their
belief and claim that 6 billion copies of Jesus will
appear. Remember, they brought the Greek into this,
so now they are bound to what it says. :)
The truth is, that they would be "caught up" in the
sense that they became changed and would never die
(sleep) and the air under discussion was the air around
them.
****PART OF MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT END****
What, some pro-Rapture book, instead of an unbiased
source, like Strong's, which gives the original
definitions of the words, in the original languages
of the Scriptures? I think I'll take Strong's, thanks.
Over The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament?
No Wonder
Yes, that is what an unbiased person does. They take
a dictionary of the language, over someone's doctrinal
statement.
Exegetical means someone's exegesis, which means
someone's opinion about what it says.
Do you understand what a dictionary is? Have you
ever used a dictionary? Dictionaries are not biased.
They simply give you the definition of the words.
That is what Strong's does.
You are trying to convince me that I am supposed to
take the doctrinal opinions of someone over the text
of a dictionary.
Which would you use to get the definition of a word?
My opinion? Or Webster's Dictionary?
You are trying to convince me that I should use
someone's opinion over a dictionary.
Exegesis = Someone's analysis of what THEY THINK
a text says.
How is that an unbiased source? How is that a
dictionary? It isn't a dictionary, it is a doctrinal
statement!
It seems that when cornered, you become desperate
enough to try to convince me, that when looking up
the definition of a word, that I'm supposed to use
someone's doctrine, over the actual definition, just
to avoid admitting that you didn't know the word
meant what I showed you it meant, from a dictionary!
A dictionary does not care what text the word is found
in. It only cares what the definition of the word is.
For example, does it matter what my doctrine is,
when I use the word "definition"? No, it doesn't.
The word "definition" is simply, "the meaning
of a word". So when I look up that word in my
dictionary, that is what it should say that it means.
My personal doctrine, or "exegesis" doesn't matter.
Strong's is a dictionary, not a doctrinal statement.
You are taking someone's opinion... a commentary...
and because YOU LIKE what it says, you're trying
to convince me that the opinion's of the men who
put it together, have more weight regarding the
definition of a word, than a dictionary does.
That's ridiculous!!!
If the word in 1 Thes 4:17 ("aer") means the air in
the sky, then why does the word "ouranos" exist?
Why would the Greek have two words, if the definition
is the exact same thing?
And why is it that when Jesus was specifically talking
about the birds flying in the sky, that the word found
there is "ouranos" and not "aer", if "aer" is the word
that means the air in the sky?
This is a simple, logical question that you keep
avoiding!
You also keep avoiding that fact and try to pretend
that your smart ***** comments equal knowledge!
You, being ignorant of the issue, are trying to teach
me, someone who has studied it for over 20 years!
In fact, you weren't even aware of this issue until
I brought it to your attention! Did you even know
that the NT was originally written in Koine Greek?!
You said the following...
DANIEL: I told you it was not ouranos but close to it.
It is described as "the air forms the intermediate
sphere between Earth and Heaven". Look it up.
I did look it up and I showed you both definitions.
You have just described all of the air between
the heaven and the earth and have tried to take
it all for that definition, when the definition of
the word "aer" isn't even close to that and I proved
that to you!
And here's what you don't get... You have just given
almost the same definition as what the word "ouranos"
means! So how can "aer" be close to it and have almost
the same definition!
And btw, you did NOT show me this! I showed YOU this!
And I showed you that the definition you claim is for
"aer", is actually the definition for "ouranos", which
is proved by reading the following...
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and
the birds of the air (OURANOS) have nests; but the Son
of man hath not where to lay his head." - Matthew 8:20
This passage shows that it is obvious that it is
ouranos that means the air in the sky, our atmosphere
and not "aer", which means the air we breathe and
that which immediately surrounds us!
The word in Mat 8:20 is "ouranos", Strong's G3772.
Now let's look some other passages where the Greek
word "aer" is used, to see how it is applied and see
if it is indeed used to mean the air in the sky, which
is what you claim it is.
"And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes,
and threw dust into the air (AER) - Acts 2:23
Nope, that is the air immediately around them.
They didn't cast air up into the sky that the birds
fly in!
"I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I,
not as one that beateth the air (AER)" - 1 Cor9:26
People do not try to hit the atmosphere, when they
use a punching bag (yes, they did have them then),
or when they fight an opponent. They beat the air
that is in front of them.
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words
easy to be understood, how shall it be known what
is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air (AER)."
- 1 Cor 14:9
One speaks into the air that is right there around
them, not the sky where the birds fly.
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to
the course of this world, according to the prince
of the power of the air (AER), the spirit that now
worketh in the children of disobedience:" - Eph 2:2
This shows that it is speaking of the air immediately
surrounding us. If the spirit is works in the children
of disobedience and they are down here, then it can't
be talking about the air in the atmosphere above us.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in
the air (AER): and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
- 1 Thes 4:17
This is the one that you claim speaks of the air in the
sky, but it doesn't. The clouds are symbolic of God's
presence (see Isaiah 19:1, which is fulfilled prophecy)
and it is speaking of the air immediately surrounding
us, which is proved by the context of the other
passages that the word "aer" is used in.
The conclusion is that the word does indeed mean
the air that we breathe and which immediately
surrounds us. The context that it is used in, in
the verses I showed you, proves that.
We are discussing DEFINITIONS OF GREEK WORDS,
NOT "TEACHINGS", which are man's opinions!!!
I don't think you even have a clue what Strong's is.
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?event=AFF&p=1007828&item_no=06011
There is another one of your websites you keep claiming that I use.
Excuse me?! It's a Christian book store that gives you
a description of what Strong's is.
You use web sites that are biased toward your belief
as supposed proof.
You can also download, free of charge, e-Sword Bible
software, which will incorporate Strong's into it.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is a concordance
that shows every reference to every word in the Bible
and where each word is used, in every instance that
it is used.
I admit it is a very good reference tool
You didn't even know what Strong's was!
And now you wish to pretend that you
believe it's a good tool?!
But I like using more then one tool if possible.
Especially in a discussion like this one
You are taking the doctrinal opinions OF MEN
and trying to equate them to a dictionary!
Strong's has been the standard for over 100 years.
Even other dictionaries key their books to Strong's
numbering system. That should tell you something.
The problem is (and I have proved this to be the case)
that the other books, like Thayer's and even the one
you use, add definitions to words as time goes by.
In other words, when a new doctrine comes out, they
add that definition as if it has always been there and
then pretend to be an unbiased dictionary.
Thayer's is the most famous for this. Look at an
older copy of Thayer's that someone has and you'll
see one definition for the word. Go to a copy 10 years
newer and you'll see four definitions for the same
word. Thus, they add definitions to suit doctrines.
Strong's on the other had, has remained the same
throughout all of this, being honest to the actual
Greek definitions of the words IN THAT TIME.
Unlike English, the original Koine Greek does not
change, since all that matters, is what definitions
applied in that time frame of the NT and not what
something means today. A Greek word might mean
a couple of things today and most dictionaries of
that language reflect the usage today. Strong's tells
you what it meant when the NT was written.
I opened some of these supposedly unbiased dictionaries
and in one word, for example, I counted 12 definitions!
That word did *NOT* have 12 definitions!
And isn't it funny that those 12 definitions reflected
the doctrines that have been added to the church
over time and could be traced?!
Strong's has remained an unbiased dictionary source
and has steered clear of doctrinal statements!
It also keys to the Strong's numbering system, which
allows you to look up the word from any passage, in
the original languages and give you THE ORIGINAL
definition of the word.
NOT AN OPINION ABOUT WHAT A PASSAGE MEANS!
NOT SOMEONE'S TEACHING!
It gives you the definition, just like opening
a dictionary of our language.
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY CHURCH'S
TEACHING ABOUT DOCTRINES!
IT DOES NOT INCLUDE DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS!
It is a dictionary, not a commentary!
And you can download it and the Bible software that
includes it, from here...
www.eSword.net
Now you can choose to accept what the word of God says,
or you can keep claiming to be a Biblical genius and go
ahead and continue to look like AN *****, trying to
pretend that people who know better, would actually
consider your words to be educated on the subject!
It should occur to you, that when you're dealing with
someone who is a pastor and teaches this stuff, that
your attempts to BLUFF YOUR WAY THROUGH will
be detected immediately and BLUFFING is what
you've been trying to do!
Just what are you a paster of? What denomination? I am
going to Guess: Lutheran ELS, WELS, probably ELCA
I pointed out the truth, which is that you have been
trying to bluff your way through and you ask me which
denomination I am?!
You were foolish to guess! I do not believe in
denominations. They are division, as 1 Cor 1:10-13
teaches.
Did I not tell you that the word you looked up
is a current use of the word? It was not the
definition used in 1 Thes 4 during Pauls time.
How can it be "a current use of the word", when
it is a DEAD LANGUAGE OF THAT TIME???
It is no longer used!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek
Koine Greek was the "street Greek" of that time.
It was the "common man's" Greek and the word
"Koine" means "common".
Thank you for AGAIN PROVING that you don't
know what you're talking about!!!
This is the point I'm making! When a dictionary
like Strong's shows the original definition of a
word and then others add more definitions to it,
THEY are the ones that are adding NEWER meanings
to it! It is a dead language and nothing new should
be added to it!
YOU are using a newer source to reach that conclusion,
that states someone's doctrinal opinion! Strong's is a
dictionary which shows that the word means the air we
breathe and that which immediately surrounds us and
not the air in the sky!
But you, one who knows nothing about the issue of the
languages, demands that I submit to you as my teacher,
when you didn't even have a clue about the languages!
Just think how the sentence will be interpreted
in just one thousand years from now.
And there it is. Again, you fail to understand the
difference between a definition and interpretation!
Strong's gives the meaning of the word as THEY
used it THEN!
Any "interpretation" of 1,000 years from now,
will be a FALSE ONE, since it is a dead language!
That's a load of crap! you keep talking about these
"files". Well, we've seen your "files". It was a
pro-Rapture web site that you showed, when you
claimed to have finally accessed your "files". Now
you're again claiming that you don't have these
"files"?
What website? Show me. Show me once
using a website. I don't use websites.
That is your job. You are the one that uses
web sites. I have never used or refered anyone
to a website. I have a Bible college 10 miles
from my home with more resourses then I
could ever use. I do not need websites. If I
can't find something in my files I surely can
there at the college. Websites are a waste
of time with no historical value.
You quoted a list that supposedly proved the Rapture,
after saying that you had found these supposed "files"
of yours, that you said you were previously looking
for. And btw, these "files" seem to appear and
disappear according to how badly you've been cornered.
You quoted a list that included a heretic who was
promptly corrected about this and a book that
was rejected from the canon! That shows just how
DESPERATE you are!!!
You even went so far as to quote a person who
stated this belief in the early 1800's, as proof
that I was wrong when I said it became popular
in the 1800's! DUH!!!
As to proving that you used a web site, you used
the following web site, which is actually Perry Stone's
web site...
http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/rapturerevelation.htm
I pointed out that you were simply plagiarizing
his web site. You falsely claimed that you were
honest and said that you supplied his name.
Now let me ask you... If you have NEVER used a web
site, then how is it that you claimed that you supplied
Perry Stone's name, when I showed that you plagiarized
his web site??? DUH!!!
However, the point here is, that yes, you did use
a web site and here it is and at the following link...
http://tinyurl.com/dws2z
....you will find the following conversation between us:
ANANIAS917: You act as if you have proved something
and you didn't even try to. The fact is, I kept asking
you to prove it and the best you came up with, was to
plagiarize someone else's web site for a list of a few
names that you claim believed in the Rapture and to
keep saying that it's true. THAT'S IT!
DANIEL: Because it is the key to understanding that
the Rapture of the church does in fact exist?'
So there it is!
And we also find YOUR ADMISSION that you used
his material, which is also found at the same web link
I gave above...
DANIEL: When I used Perry Stones work I included his
name as the author.
Now you wish to claim that you did not use a web site?
THIS MEANS YOU LIED!!!!!
YOU DID USE A WEB SITE!!!!!
I make a big deal out of this, because you have
consistently been LYING, all the way through
our conversations!!!
And btw, since you mentioned going to a Bible college
for your info and tried to convince me that you were
showing me, "ancient Greek teachings", as if there is
such a thing when discussing word definitions, here
is what the "Bible college" you went to says about
the Rapture, which shows that you did indeed go
to a biased source!
"We believe that God has a plan and program for
the end of the age. The next event on God's prophetic
calendar is the return of the Lord Jesus. We believe
His return will be accomplished in two phases. The
first phase, called the Rapture of the church, will be
premillennial and is an imminent event. After the
Rapture, the seven-year tribulation will occur,
climaxed by the second phase of Christ's return,
referred to as the Revelation. Following this will be
the millennial reign of Christ, culminating in the
Great White Throne Judgment of the lost. Next comes
the eternal state. We believe in the conscious, eternal
punishment of the lost in hell and the blessed eternal
felicity of the saints in heaven. (See 1 Thessalonians
4:16-17; Revelation 3:10, 6-19; 19:11-16; 20:1-6,
11-15; 21:1-8.)"
http://www.nbbc.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=53
You say you have a Bible yet you can't see the antichrist
described in revelation?
You always claim that "the Bible says it". So where is
the word "antichrist" found in Revelation?
You make a BIG DEAL out of telling me that "IT'S RIGHT
THERE, IN THE PASSAGE! READ THE PASSAGE!" and
then when I ask you where, because the word you claimed
is there, isn't there, you call me "blind". (:
I have proved you to be not only ignorant, but stupid!
Ignorance is when you don't know something.
Stupidity is when you are corrected and still insist
that you are the teacher of the person who has studied
it for over 20 years! And that IS what you have not
only done, BUT HAVE KEPT DOING!!!
You don't even know the difference between a dictionary
and an interpretation!
Not only that, but from one message to the next,
you tell lies. For just one example, you didn't know
what Strong's was and then when I point that out,
you then, in your next message, pretend to be
teaching me what it is!
I have also proved you to be A LIAR!!!
The claim that you didn't never used a web link
and I proved that you did! And you were dumb
enough to insist that you didn't, in the same thread
in which we were discussing that very web link!
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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| User: "Saint Zombie" |
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| Title: Re: Daniel's "AIR" ! |
17 Dec 2005 01:02:50 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:04:48 GMT, Ananias917
<_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote:
The Greeks had more than one word, that translates
into the English word, "air".
Sometimes "air" is rudely experienced in an elevator.
That's when everybody what's to blame it on another.
Same with man's own religious doctrines. It smells bad.
http://www.heptune.com/farts.html
http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/gas
http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=3716
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