Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:


The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC
to debate Preterism. After only 2-3 rounds
of discussion, he abandons any attempt to
debate the theology and the facts

and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste

articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to
"declare victory" simply by overwhelming us
with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!

Note especially in the list below, that all
40 messages were posted within the span
of 6 minutes:

In article <5mn5k3l4qkrbc9ngld3oeg26b5rlf2ibl2@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:

The dating of the Book of Revelation,
by Steven Black

One of the great discussions about the book of Revelation
concerns the date of its writing. Establishing the dates
when Biblical books were written contributes to our
overall understanding of their message.

By knowing the authors original audience and time of
his writing, we can imagine the setting with all of the
attendant surroundings and comprehend more fully
the message of the book.

In searching for the date when a book of Revelation
was written, we must consider the internal evidences.
By internal, we mean, evidence contained within the book.
Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God
(2 Timothy 3:16,17), internal evidence must be considered
as God breathed as well.

In this study we shall consider texts from within
the Apocalypse.

(1) One of the most important internal evidences within
the book of Revelation is John's silence about the
destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the temple which
was the end of the Jewish dispensation. There is no way
John wrote the book of Revelation in 95 AD and never
mentioned the end of that Jewish dispensation!

<Every Jewish scholar and Rabbi will agree that
Biblical Judaism ended in 70 AD. Thus, it was
too important an event to be left out and John
speaks of the Temple as still standing, which it
wasn't, after 70 AD.>

In Revelation there is no reference to the destruction of
Jerusalem and its temple. It would be inexplicable in terms
of religious identity if the work had been written after the
year 70, because John belonged to a mentality and a culture
that was notably Hebrew. He considers himself a genuine
Jew, a member of the true Synagogue (Rev 2,9;3,9).

This silence would be inexplicable in terms of Scriptural
exegesis, because the destruction of Jerusalem and its
Temple was prophesied by the synoptic gospels (Mark 13:1-2;
Matt 24:1-2; Luke 21,5-6) following the tradition from
Micah and Jeremiah (Mic 3,12 (cf. Jer 26,18); Jer 7,12-15).

Under the influence of Daniel 9,27; 11,31; 12,11;
Mark 13,14; Matt 24,15. Cf. Luke 21,20 the destruction
of Jerusalem was linked to the profanation of its
Sanctuary, Mark 13,14; Matt 24,15. Cf. Luke 21,20.

But John contradicts this prophetic tradition by affirming
in one of his prophecies that the believers are inside the
Sanctuary and that the exterior court has been taken by
the Gentiles, who will trample on the Holy City for 42
months (Rev 11,1-2).

We know from history that the Jewish War with Rome
was formally engaged in Spring, A.D. 67, and was won
with the collapse of the Temple in August, A.D. 70.
This is a period of forty-two months, which fits the precise
measurement of John's prophecy. John's prophecy was
clearly written before the outbreak of the Jewish War!
The Temple is still standing in his writing! Moreover,
John prophesies that a tenth part of Jerusalem will be
destroyed by an earthquake (11,13). It is clear that when
John wrote his prophecy, Jerusalem and his Temple had
not been destroyed yet. Therefore, Revelation must have
been written before the year 70 AD!

(2) John later speaks of a "new Jerusalem" coming down
out of heaven, which is called the "holy city" (Rev. 21:2)
and which does not need a temple (Rev. 21:22). This new
Jerusalem is apparently meant to supplant the old Jerusalem
with its temple system. The old order Temple was destroyed
in August, A.D. 70.

As wide spread as the agreement for the date of a 96 A.D
goes one would think that there must be considerable
evidence to support this position. Nothing could be further
from the truth! Another statement by John seems to indicate
the earlier date as well.

(3) When attempting to explain that Revelation was written
before the End of the Old World of Judaism in 70 AD,
one of the first objections offered is Revelation 1:7...
"Behold, he cometh with the clouds and every eye shall
see him, and they also that pierced him, and all kindreds
of the earth shall wail because of him.".

The significance of this statement comes to light when
compared to other Biblical texts which teach the same
things. A similar context in Zechariah 12:10-14 reads
as follows. "And I will pour out on the house of David,
and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem)
shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son and will be bitter
over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that
day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced)
the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning
of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land
shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the
house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family
of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the
house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of
Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who
are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.".

The language is almost identical! A likeness between
the book of Revelation and the Old Testament prophets
is apparent to all serious Bible students! However it seems
to have escaped the notice of those who offer Revelation
as proof that all prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, that
this verse is taken directly out of the book of Zechariah.
As shown Zechariah 12:10-14 is the background for
Revelation 1:7 and the context demands the event be
in the first century generation.

<And let us not forget, that the verse says that they
who pierced Him would see it happen. This places
it earlier than 70 AD, especially since Jesus told
Caiaphas that he would see it and Caiaphas was
not a young man! Nor can this be resurrected
first century people, because Jesus is "seen"
coming and THEN the resurrection happens!
But the point is, that it is symbolic, not literal
(by vision with human eyes, seeing Jesus
physically ride a cloud) and we know this,
because of the other statements elsewhere in
Scripture and because they who pierced Him
were the ones who would see it!>

Although we know that the Romans crucified him and
pierced him, the Apostles accused the Jews of the act.
In Acts 2:23 and 36 Peter says that they crucified Jesus.
Dating of the book of Revelation is a kind of issue that
needs to be studied as a whole. The Futurist approach
that we have all been taught placing pieces of the puzzle
in our future, has simply not communicated well. If one
studies the pieces separately, he will not see the whole
picture. Those who oppose the early dating of the Book
of Revelation are looking at a part of the puzzle without
dealing with the whole.

(4) "The Revelation which was made by God to John
the evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he
was thrown by Nero Caesar" is the title of the oldest
version we have. Thus, from the oldest and most
important versions in our possession comes unequivocal
testimony placing the Revelation in the time of Nero.
Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

(5) To the church at Philadelphia Jesus says he will make
them "of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews
and are not, but do lie", to come and worship before their
feet (Rev. 3:9). This is a clear reference to the utter
defeat of Judaism and the destruction of the Jewish
theocracy John 8:33; John 8:44 and the glory that
would arise upon the New Testament church.

(6) John called himself "their brother and companion
in tribulation" (Revelation 1:9). The problem with this
[Domitian date] theory is that there is no evidence that
during the last decade of the first century there occurred
any open and systematic persecution of the church.
Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians
beyond all comparison. One of the things that doesn't
fit is the persecution of Domitian. There is very little
evidence for any involved persecution. And remember,
when you look at texts by other writers, you may see,
"Domitunus". That however, was Nero's name also
and is not, "Domitian", which is different.

(7) According to the epistles to the churches, there were
still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems
in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD!

(8 ) The notion that the churches of Asia would not be
in the state of apostasy the book of Revelation seems
to describe earlier that the reign of Domitian rests upon
pure supposition. That the churches of Galatia were
"so soon removed" from the Gospel proves that there
is no substantial basis for the claim that the churches
of Asia could not have apostatized early on. Indeed,
Paul affirms that the apostasy associated with the latter
times was well under way when he wrote Timothy
(I Tim. 4:1-6; II Tim. 3:1-5). The letter to the Hebrews
speaks directly to the apostasy of Jewish believers from
the faith. John also wrote of this apostasy as a present
fact saying "They went out from us, but they were not
of us..." (I John. 2:19). Like the spirit of Antichrist
John said was already present and evidence that they
were in the last days of the Mosaic Age (I John. 4:3),
the apostasy of the church at Ephesus and those John
wrote of disproves the notion that the conditions described
in Revelation "must" be assigned to a later date!

(9) Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the
number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666
(You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible).
What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name
would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666.
This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the
one being referred to as the beast and that the change from
666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that
very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another
person's name in that time frame that would do this!
Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666.
Since this was written about soon events, no other person
can be found within this time scope whose name fits this
requirement and description. Especially none can be found
in the soon future of 96 AD.

(10) In Revelation 2 and 3 there seems to be only 7 churches
in Asia. Historically, there seems to be many more than
that after 70 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly.

(11) The Jewish problem was present in the church at
Smyrna (2:9) and in the church at Philadelphia (3:9).
It is evident from the first three chapters of the
Apocalypse that persecution against the saints was in
progress. Jews persecuted the saints at Smyrna and
Philadelphia (2:9; 3:9). The saints at Pergamos suffered
the loss of Antipas who was martyred for his faith in the
Lord (2:13). The source of this persecution is unidentified.
John (and others) suffered tribulation while writing the
Apocalypse indicating an ongoing persecution (1:9).
Additional persecution from an unnamed source was in
the making and expected soon (2:10; 3:10) which makes
an early date more consistent.

(12) The seven kings of Rev 17:10 help us date the book.
Revelation 17:10-12 marks the period in which John wrote
the Revelation. Like the reference to the city and temple,
this internal evidence cannot reasonably be disputed.

Chapter 17:10 states unequivocally that the sixth emperor
is still on the throne: "And there are seven kings: five
are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.".

The Caesars are as follows:

(1) Julius
(2) Augustus
(3) Tiberius
(4) Caligula
(5) Claudius
(6) Nero.

"Five are fallen" -Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula
and Claudius were deceased.

"one is" -Nero was yet on the throne. The reign of Nero
extended from 54 A.D. to 68 A.D. Therefore the book
was almost assuredly written sometime between these dates.

After Nero, came Galba, the 7th.

(13) The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet.
If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written
before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD!

(14) The blood flowing as high as the horses' bridles would
portray the gravity of judgment (Revelation 14:20).
The distance of 1600 stadia (about 180 miles) just happens
to be the approximate length of the land of Palestine.

The "inner evidence" for a early date into the book of
Revelation before AD 70 goes on and on.

(15) Revelation 14:19-20 The vine of the earth was gathered
and cast into the winepress of the wrath of God. The vine
of the earth was the nation of Israel (Psalms 80:8-19;
Isaiah 5:1-7). The passage portrays the fruit of this vine
gathered into a winepress for the extraction of blood.
This is the precise picture when the Jews gathered in
Jerusalem for Passover in 70 A.D. and were surrounded
by the Roman armies.

(16) John identifies the enemies of God as "Gog and Magog
whose number is as the sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:8).
A clue is given to us by God in their numbers, since it was
"as the sand of the sea". This too can only apply to a
pre-70 AD date. The only people who ever received that
promise was Abrahams descendants (the Jews before AD 70).
No other people received that promise to be as "sand of
the sea".

(17) This harlot woman, or the city of Babylon that was
fallen, claimed to be the true wife of the Lord and not a
widow (18:9). Only Israel was seen as a wife of the Lord
(Isa 54:6; Jer 3:20). Such a claim could not be made
after 70 A.D.!

(18) This same defiled or harlot woman is seen riding or
sitting upon the back of a scarlet beast (Revelation 17:3).
The Jews organized a great persecutions against the saints
of Christ who would not bow to the lordship of Caesar
in order to stomp out Christianity. Being blinded by
the earthly or carnal system of Moses they sought to destroy
the spiritual seed of Abrahams descendants represented
by Isaac and Sarah (Gal 4:21-31) by using Rome. It was
in this manner that the Jews give their kingdom to the beast
and riding or sitting on the back of the scarlet beast Rome.
Israel offering a daily sacrifice for Nero until the
beginning of the war is a well attested fact of history!

HOW CAN ANYONE IGNORE THIS FACT COMPARED
TO SCRIPTURE?!?

(19) Throughout the book of Revelation saints suffer from
persecution. "The souls of them that were slain for the
word of God, and for the testimony which they held"
are under the altar (6:9). Later John saw "the souls
of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God" living and reigning with Christ
(20:4). These were all martyred for their allegiance to
the Lord. In the Apocalypse, the saints suffer at the hands
of their persecutors but in the end God has His day in
court. Judgment is passed and the persecutors punished.

Who is responsible for this persecution and how widespread
is it? It is apparent that some of the persecution is the
result of a failure on the part of saints to "worship the
beast and his image" (20:4). The beast worshiped is
the sea beast of chapter 13 (vs.1-8) and symbolizes
the Roman Empire.

(20) John deals extensively with empire and emperor worship
in the Revelation (13:12-15; 14:9-11; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4)
and many contend that this practice did not become
widespread until the days of Domitian (81-96 A.D.), but
without proof. And Bible commentators insist that it was
under Domitian that the death penalty was issued to those
who refused to bow in worship of the emperor, but again,
without proof. The fact is, it was before 70 AD that this
happened and that CAN be proved!

An image of Caesar was in the temple in Jerusalem before
Domitian's reign in (95-96 A.D.). In 40 A.D. Caligula,
the fourth emperor, sent an army to Palestine for the
purpose of placing his image in the temple at Jerusalem.
So, emperor worship existed long before the reign of
Domitian and this is attested historical fact!

SHOULD WE KEEP PLAYING THE GAME OF;
"SKIP IT, IF IT ISN'T WHEN I WANT IT TO BE"?!?

(21) This city is also "the great city... where also our
Lord was crucified" (11:8). Jerusalem is identified in
Scripture as a great city (Jeremiah 22:8) and furthermore,
Jesus was crucified there (Cf. Matthew 16:21; 20:17,18;
Luke 13:33,34; 18:31-33). One needs not to be a rocket
scientist to understand that Jerusalem is under
consideration here.

(22) The seventh angel's sounding would be a sign that the
mystery of God revealed through the Old Testament prophets
was complete (Revelation 10:7). John declared in his book
of Revelation that when the seventh and final angel sounded
the mystery of God declared to His servants the prophets
would be finished or completed.

Only the Old Testament prophets are identified as God's
servants the prophets (cf.2 Kings 9:7; 17:13,23; 21:10;
24:2; Ezra 9:11; Jer.7:25; 25:4; 26:5; 29:19; 35:15; 44:4;
Ezek.38:17; Dan.9:6,10; Amos 3:7; Zech.1:6). And the
mystery of God declared to them are those prophecies
relating to God's plan of salvation formulated before
the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1: 19-20), which
Paul said was revealed to them, in their time, NOT OURS!

<This idea that they hadn't a clue and that WE are some
chosen generation, that only NOW can understand it all,
is simply ridiculous and is vanity ten-fold!!! They
didn't know half this stuff, because they didn't have
the whole Bible, YET THEY WROTE IT and you claim it
is the word of God and THEY KNEW AND TALKED TO
EACH OTHER and yet, didn't have a clue?! Huh?!? What?!?
So God just used some morons as scribes and nothing more?
Then how did they win converts?! Btw, there's a lesson
that tells you to study the Old Testament (ALL OF IT)
just as thoroughly as the New testament, since you
CANNOT possible understand the NT, without a good,
thorough understanding of the OT, period!!! An btw,
just how vain are you people who claim that garbage?!>

The significance of Peter's statement comes to light when
compared to other Biblical texts which teach the same things
1 Corinthians 2:7-13; Ephesians 3:1-11). According to Paul
the mystery was made know to him Ephesians 3:3. The
mystery of God would be finished, fulfilled, accomplished
and/or completed before the seventh angel sounded.

<Don't claim to believe the Bible, if you don't believe
this part and think you know more than they did!>

(23) Revelation 17:4 Babylon was decked in purple, scarlet,
gold, precious stones and pearls. Jeremiah pictured
Jerusalem adorning herself this way hundreds of years
previous to the Apocalypse (Jeremiah 4:20). Our conclusion
has Scriptural support!

(24) The siege of Jerusalem was announced by Luke,
in 21:20, by following an old prophetic tradition (Jer 6,6).
The command of leaving Jerusalem is found in all three
of the synoptic Gospels (Mark 13,14-19; Matt 24,15-21;
Luke 21,20-24)!

If John had prophesied after these events, could he have
written that believers were in the Sanctuary while the
exterior court had surrendered to the Gentiles and that
the Holy City will be trampled on for 42 months (11:1-2)?

John not only wrote that the believers stayed in the
Sanctuary of Jerusalem. He also warned the people
of God to escape from Rome, not from Jerusalem
before it is destruction (and they did and fled to Pella,
just before the Roman army attacked the city)!

"Come out of her, my people, so that you do not take part
in her sins, and so that you do not share in her plagues;
for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has
remembered her iniquities!" (Rev 18:4-5)

According to the prophecy of John believers living in the
city of Jerusalem are persuaded to escape before the city is
destroyed. At the time John wrote the Book of Revelation,
it is obvious that the Jewish-Christians had not escaped to
Pella yet and Menahem, Eleazar, son of Simon, John of
Gischala and Simon bar Giora had not taken control of
the Temple and the Holy City yet. This also shows the
weakness of the late date argument.

Though the late-date view is the majority position today,
did you know that that has not always been the case?

In fact, it was the opposite of how some Biblical scholars
view Revelation even today. In Revelation we have clear
evidence that John is writing to particular, historic,
individual churches that existed in his day. Rev 1:4a
reads: "John, to the seven churches which are in Asia.".

In verse 11, he specifically names the seven churches
to whom he speaks. We know these are historical cities
containing historical churches. These churches are
specifically dealt with in terms of their historically and
culturally unique circumstances in chapters 2 and 3.
In Revelation John notes that he and the seven churches
have already entered "the tribulation" (Rev. 1:9)!

When interpreting any book of the Bible, it is important
for us to understand the audience to which it was originally
directed. The internal evidence does not allow us to date
the Book of Revelation with certainty at the end of the
Domitian's government, since there is important internal
evidence in favor of a early date!

The so-called "Pastor" Dave challenges ACC to debate Preterism. After
only 2-3 rounds of discussion, he abandons any attempt to debate the
theology and the facts, and SPAM's ACC with FOURTY (40) cut'n'paste
articles fromt he "Preterist Archive" hoping to "declare victory" simply
by overwhelming us with the volume of his cut'n'pate spam!

Note especially in the list below, that all 40 messages were posted
within the span of 6 minutes:



Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PING: CHUCK - What Will You Say? 42
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Ancient Quotes - Church Fathers? 292
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Resurrection of the Dead 771
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
REVELATION: WHEN WAS IT WRITTEN??? 534
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: Preterist Statements 655
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 1 46
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Oh, Chucky Chuckle Boy!!! - Part 2 360
11/20/07 8:14 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Significance of 70 AD 456
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: WILL YOU LIVE UP TO YOUR WORD OR NOT??? 172
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Irenaeus: 70 AD & Abrahamic Covenant 117
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Comments by Epiphanes 44
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cool Info with Lots of Links to Writings Throughout Time 15
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Israel and the Church 72
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Justin Martyr: Sword , Plowshares and the Kingdom 59
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Clement: Abomination of Desolation 52
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Origen: Literal Interpretation Method 63
11/20/07 8:15 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Got Preterism? The Church Fathers' Did! 169
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eusebius: Fulfilled 21
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Shake, Ratte and Roll! 336
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
* Christ and the Resurrection of the Flesh * 895
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Cloud Coming Recorded by Historians 54
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Church History 82
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Seige of Jerusalem 830
11/20/07 8:16 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CHUCK: AND HERE IS HOW IT ENDED BETWEEN US!!!
386 11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Historical Church Says Christ Returned! 322
11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
PRE-CHRISTIAN PRETERISM 224
11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who IS Israel 184
11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Early Preterist Statements 167
11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME! 407
11/20/07 8:17 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Preterism, Society and the Modern Church; Tackling the Taboo,s 214
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology in American History 231
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
God's Israel Identity 144
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology Failed!!! 360
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
The Dating of the Book of Revelation 399
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Eschatology from a First Century Viewpoint 183
11/20/07 8:18 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Dating of the Book of Revelation - More Info! 471
11/20/07 8:19 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
CLOUD COMING OF JESUS RECORDED!!! 328
11/20/07 8:19 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Crying Voices of the Great Tribulation. 183
11/20/07 8:19 AM

Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com>
Who Was the Beast and What Was the Mark? 20
11/20/07 8:20 AM