| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ananias917" |
| Date: |
18 Dec 2005 03:34:14 AM |
| Object: |
Day if the Lord - Part 2 |
The subject of the "Day of the Lord" is dealt with
in three parts.
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of
world wide?
2) What are the "stellar events" that Jesus spoke of?
3) What does the "Day of the Lord" mean?
Last time we dealt with "Part 1", which was about
whether or not the destruction that Jesus spoke of
was world wide and we saw that it was not.
The link to that message, in case you missed it,
or wish to refresh your memory, before reading
this message, is at the following link...
http://tinyurl.com/a8326
This is "Part 2" and in it, we will deal with what
Jesus meant by the statements He made about
stellar events.
Was He talking about actual events? Or was it simple
hyperbole and exaggeration, to stress a point about
an actual event, that would take place, but just not
with "stars falling" and "the Sun going dark", etc.?
The first thing to understand, is that Jesus was a Jew.
The next thing to understand, is that He was speaking
to Jews and would have used language familiar to Jews,
who btw, were raised learning the Scriptures and not
the "Cat in the Hat" series. :)
Also, we should understand that Jesus is God and would
have used the language that God has used throughout
the Scriptures.
But was it uncommon to make the type of statements
that Jesus made in Mat 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21
(Mark 13 & Luke 21 are parallel accounts of Mat 24)?
Is that type of language found elsewhere in Scripture?
And what I mean by that, is the Old Testament, because
in this case, it doesn't matter what the New Testament
says. You see, we are trying to show a pattern BEFORE
the New Testament, to see if Jesus was using language
ALREADY known to the people He spoke to, amen?
There is ONE RULE YOU MUST APPLY!!!
Ask yourself, when you hear interpretations, knowing
that God does not try to confuse people...
"If I was a Jew in THAT time, would what this person
TODAY is telling me it means, make sense to me?"
That's it! Ask yourself THAT question!
Now admittedly, to answer that question takes knowledge
but it can be obtained. It is my statement, that the
futurist view comes from ignorance of the Old Testament
which would be fine, except they still ignore it when
it is shown to them. (:
So try to keep an open mind here and understand, that
as a Jew, in that time, it is the Old Testament texts
that would have come to mind for you, when you were
listening to someone who claimed to be the Messiah.
So what are the "stellar statements" that Jesus made?
They are found in Matthew 24:29-30. So let's take a
look and see if we can read the passages together and
break them down...
Matthew 24:29-30
29a) And immediately after the affliction of those days
the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her
light,
In Jewish thinking in those days, the Sun was symbolic
for the light of God. The Moon reflects the light of
the Sun onto Earth and in the same way, the Jewish
people reflect the light of God on Earth. This is a
very simple and verifiable teaching of that time.
As for the futurist contention that v29a is a should
be read literally, note the following passage from
the Old Testament and see if the language isn't
the same...
Ezekiel 32:7-8,15
7) And when I shall put thee out, I will cover
the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon
shall not give her light.
8) All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark
over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith
the Lord GOD.
15) When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate,
and the country shall be destitute of that whereof
it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell
therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD.
This prophecy was FULFILLED when Egypt was destroyed.
Again, note the similarity to Matthew, quoted above.
Now tell me, what is so different in the language?
Are the end timers prepared to tell me that...
A) These weren't fulfilled and the Lord is a liar?
Or...
B) They were fulfilled and these weren't literal events
described, but rather, symbolic picture language?
Don't the above passages describe the same type
of event and use the SAME LANGUAGE?
Now pay SPECIAL ATTENTION to this one...
Isaiah 13:9-10
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both
with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations
thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine.
This was FULFILLED when Babylon was conquered
by the Medes and Persians. Note the similarity of
language used compared to the quote from Matthew
above. It's saying the SAME THING about a FULFILLED
prophecy.
29b) and the stars will fall from the heaven, and
the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30a) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land
will wail.
I think we can agree that v30 comes after v29. :)
I think we can also agree that Jesus is describing
the events in v30 as coming after v29, by the use
of the words, "And then...".
Now, the first thing to understand, is that a star
could not fall to Earth. A star is many times bigger
than the Earth and if anything, the Earth would get
sucked into its gravitational pull and not vice versa.
But assuming that it could happen and a star struck
the Earth, it would disintegrate the Earth (this would
actually happen before it even got close to the Earth).
In other words, the Earth would be gone, gone, gone.
Now that we have established basic scientific fact,
tell me, if this is speaking about the whole planet
and stars literally hit the Earth, how would there
be any tribes left on the Earth, which wouldn't even
be here after that, to mourn (v30)?
And no it's not meteorites.
1) They claim literalism in the text.
2) Jesus said "stars".
3) If He meant meteorites, he could have said,
"burning rocks", or something to that effect.
He didn't, so it is stars and NOT meteorites.
That is simply an attempt by the end timers
to get around the text that they claim is LITERAL.
And let us not forget, the whole idea here, is to show
that this type of language was used in the Scriptures
already and was understood to be symbolic. And I
have proved this. No Jew standing there, would
have taken Jesus' words as being physically literal
regarding the stars and the Sun and the Moon.
This was simply the same type of symbolic language
that they were used to and it meant simply that
God was going to turn away His protection from
that land and leave it to the armies that He sent
in to destroy it.
We do have some historical documentation of this
taking place when the Roman army destroyed
Jerusalem...
Historical evidence of the return of Jesus being the
judgment on Jerusalem and the surrounding area.
Heavenly phenomena:
- A star resembling a sword
- A comet (Halley's Comet)
- A bright light shining around the altar
and the temple
- A vision of chariots and soldiers running around
among the clouds and all cities of Palestine.
Earthly phenomena (reported by priests)
- A quaking
- A great noise
- The sounds of a great multitude saying,
"Let us remove hence."
Read the testimonies and get more detailed information
at the following link...
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
30b) And they will see the Son of Man coming on
the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
So here, the end timers have Jesus riding on a cloud
and somehow, everyone around the world will see Him.
That very impressive, considering that "line of sight"
problem that occurs, since the Earth is round. :)
And if He projects a vision of Himself, then haven't
they left the physical literalism that they claimed? :)
And remember, my only burden of proof here, is to
show that Jesus used language that was already know
to the Jews of that time, in the Old Testament
Scriptures. And if He did, then He, being God,
who would have given the word in the first place,
would have been consistent with being God and
would have used the same type of language He
always had, amen?
Anyway, note the following passage, which is a
fulfilled prophecy...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon
a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they literally see the Lord riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Is this not describing God riding on a cloud?
Is that not the same thing that Jesus said?
How about this one, which is a Psalm of David,
AFTER God delivered him from his enemies?
Psalm 18:9,14
9) He bowed the heavens also, and came down:
and darkness was under his feet.
14) Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered
them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited
them.
Did God literally "bow the heavens"?
Did He literally have "darkness under His feet"?
Did God literally "send out arrows"?
Did God literally "shoot out lightnings" to defeat
David's enemies?
Neither of these (and there are more examples)
are literal statements and yet, they wish to take
Matthew 24:27-30 literally. That just doesn't
make sense. (:
I believe that I have proved that these statements are
symbolic and as such, say something that a Jew in the
1st century would have easily understood. Remember,
back then, in school, they learned Scriptures and they
attended temple faithfully every Sabbath and the Old
Testament Scriptures were read to them. It's not like
today, where many churches don't really deal with the
Old Testament hardly at all. Right or wrong, whatever.
You judge. But that fact still remains.
When Jesus spoke of SEEING Him riding on a cloud,
He was speaking of UNDERSTANDING that He was
present in judgment. He used the word that way
already...
"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do
they understand." - Matthew 13:13
Jesus limited this to a local event.
Luke 21:20-22
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with
armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judea flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it
depart out; and let not them that are in the countries
enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things
which are written may be fulfilled.
But what of the whole planet seeing Him return?
Well first of all, when Acts 1:9-11 is quoted ("in like
manner"), it must be noted that only those standing
there saw Him and not the whole world, so when
they say that we will all see Him return, because
Acts 1:9-11 says, "in like manner", that can't be true,
since those passages show that only those standing
there saw Him leave and it must be noted that what
it actually says, is that a cloud received Him, "out
of their sight". Thus, they didn't actually physically
see Him leave. They saw a cloud. :) So it would be
a contradiction to say that the whole planet must
see Him return.
And what of Revelation 1:7? Doesn't it say that
every eye will see Him?
Well, first of all, I'm going to leave a lot of this
for the "Day of the Lord" post (Part 3), so I won't
go into it all here. But since this is also part of
the world seeing Him subject, let us look there
and see what it actually says, as far as whether
or not the planet is being described...
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye
shall see him, and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because
of him. Even so, Amen." - Revelation 1:7
First of all, the word translated as kindreds is,
you guessed it... "phule". :) This is noting the
tribes of the Jews, which is how this word is
always used in Scripture!
Secondly, the word translated as "earth" (and
remember, we don't correct the original writing
with the translation, but rather, the other way
around), is actually "ge" and means a region,
not the planet.
The word for the planet was used by the writers
of the NT and they did know the difference. And
our doctrines do not correct Scripture! It is the
other way around! And if we begin to claim that
they just didn't know any better, then we are saying
that we know better than those who walked with
Jesus and spoke to Him and that God couldn't
keep His word straight! I for one, do NOT want
to be in THAT camp! :)
The word for the planet is "kosmos", as I said
and it is used often in Scripture. For example,
read Mat 4:8; 5:14; 13:35,38, etc., etc. (and is
not used in Rev 1:7).
In fact, many times in translations when it says
"world", or "earth", it isn't that at all. Look at
the KJV in Matthew 24:3. The Greek word
there is "aion" and means, "an age", not the planet.
Compare other translations and you'll see that
most of them translate it as "age".
Anyway, Revelation 1:7 says that the tribes in that
region would see Him return, not the whole planet.
The whole planet could not see Him physically
return anyway, since as I said, the planet is round
and there would be what's called a "line of sight"
issue. And again, if someone says that He will
project a vision of Himself, then have they not
just left the physical literalism that they claim
is there? :)
But anyway, to deal with the Revelation 1:7,
"every eye shall see Him" issue, the theory goes
as follows...
1) Everyone sees Jesus return.
2) Then the resurrection takes place and everyone
is judged.
But wait a minute... You see, they quote the passage
that says... "every eye shall see Him...". And that's
all they quote! Just that part of the passage!
But isn't that only half of the passage? Let's look at
the whole thing...
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see
him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds
of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
- Revelation 1:7
Note that after what they quote, it also says...
"AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM".
Wasn't He crucified in the first century? And if
"they who pierced Him" must see Him return,
doesn't that place it in the first century?
"Oh, they see Him after the resurrection", they say.
But wait a minute... The theory is that the world
sees Him and THEN the resurrection takes place,
so I'm sorry, but that doesn't work! His return is
smack right in the first century, no matter how
ya slice it! :)
Now couple this with the fact that Jesus said about
the temple that "not one stone will be left upon
another" and in 70 AD, the Roman army burned
the Temple and afterward, pried each and every
stone apart, to retrieve the melted gold that ran
in between them (the doors alone were 40 ft high
and covered in gold) and also add the fact that
Jesus did not say, "But I mean this will happen
twice" and we see that His words were fulfilled
to the letter!
Now this is just a bit of what I am saying, but from
this thus far, what say ye? Is it what I'm saying that
"adds to Scripture"?
Or is it the, "It's physically literal and the Bible
says Europe and nuclear weapons will be involved",
that adds to Scripture?
The bottom line is that, as far as Jesus said, this was
to be an event that occurred in Jerusalem and in Judea
and not the whole planet. THAT'S ALL HE SAID!!!
And I have PROVED BEYOND ANY DOUBT that
Jesus used language that WAS COMMON TO
SCRIPTURE.
I hope this has been helpful to all who seek the truth!
Take care and God bless! :)
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Day of the Lord - Part 2 |
18 Dec 2005 05:50:14 AM |
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Ananias917 posted on Dec 18, 1:34 am:
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of world
wide?
(The Millennial Destruction Will Be World-Wide)
To him will I give power over the nations: And he
shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels
of a potter shall they be broken to shivers.
Rev.2:26-27
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall
rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords
into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more. Is.2:4
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is
left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem
shall even go up from year to year to worship the
King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of
tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not
come up of all the families of the earth unto
Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts,
even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family
of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain;
there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will
smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast
of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of
Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come
not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zech.14:16-19
And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of
the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall
he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite
it in the seven streams, and make men go over
dryshod. Is.11:15
(The After-Millennium Destruction Will Be World-Wide)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall
be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to
deceive the nations which are in the four quarters
of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together
to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the
sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
beloved city: and fire came down from God out of
heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that
deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever
and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him
that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the
heaven fled away; and there was found no place for
them. Rev.20:7-11
The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the
night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
a great noise, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are
therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all
these things shall be dissolved, what manner of
persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and
godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of
the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire
shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his
promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,
wherein dwelleth righteousness. 2Pet.3:10-13
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and
there was no more sea. Rev.21:1
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Day of the Lord - Part 2 |
18 Dec 2005 05:48:23 AM |
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Ananias917 posted on Dec 18, 1:34 am:
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of world
wide?
(The Second-Coming Destruction Will Be World-Wide)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from
heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of
man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory. Mt.24:29-30
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall
see him, and they also which pierced him: and all
kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen. Rev.1:7
The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his
mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on
them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel
of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with
everlasting destruction from the presence of the
Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall
come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired
in all them that believe. 2Thes.1:7-10
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and
their armies, gathered together to make war against
him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And
the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet
that wrought miracles before him, with which he
deceived them that had received the mark of the
beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both
were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with
brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword
of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded
out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with
their flesh. Rev.19:19-21
Let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the
world, and all things that come forth of it. For the
indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his
fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed
them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Is.34:1-2
-For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with
his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger
with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by
fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all
flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Is.66:15-16
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with
it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule
them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God. Rev.19:15
Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with
thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with
thee will I destroy kingdoms. Jer.51:20
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the
day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination
is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the
kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even
all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be
devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zeph.3:8
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount
Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and
the earth was full of his praise. And his brightness
was as the light; he had horns coming out of his
hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Before
him went the pestilence, and burning coals went
forth at his feet. He stood, and measured the
earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations.
Hab.3:3-6
The nations shall see and be confounded at all their
might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth,
their ears shall be deaf. They shall lick the dust
like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes
like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of
the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.
Mic.7:16-17
As the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of
the Son of man be. For as in the days that were
before the flood they were eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that
Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the
flood came, and took them all away; so shall also
the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be
in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other
left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the
one shall be taken, and the other left. Mt.24:37-41
-For I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants
of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore
prophesy thou against them all these words, and say
unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and
utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall
mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a
shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all
the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come
even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a
controversy with the nations, he will plead with
all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the
sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the
coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall
be at that day from one end of the earth even unto
the other end of the earth: they shall not be
lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall
be dung upon the ground. Jer.25:29-33
The LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and
an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall
tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide
his indignation. Jer.10:10
I have cut off the nations: their towers are
desolate; I made their streets waste, that none
passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that
there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
Zeph.3:6
I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will
destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the
heathen. Hag.2:21-22
I will seek to destroy all the nations that come
against Jerusalem. Zech.12:9
-For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to
battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses
rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city
shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then
shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those
nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And
his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of
Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and
the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst
thereof toward the east and toward the west.
Zech.14:2-4
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will
smite all the people that have fought against
Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they
stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume
away in their mouth. Zech.14:12
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule,
of the camel, and of the *****, and of all the beasts
that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
Zech.14:15
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Day of the Lord - Part 2 |
18 Dec 2005 05:46:33 AM |
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Ananias917 posted on Dec 18, 1:34 am:
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of world
wide?
(The Tribulation Destruction Will Be World-Wide)
Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time, no,
nor ever shall be. And except those days should be
shortened, there should no flesh be saved.
Mt.24:21-22
As a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on
the face of the whole earth. Lk.21:35
Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against
kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers
places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful
sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Lk.21:10-11
There went out another horse that was red: and power
was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from
the earth, and that they should kill one another: and
there was given unto him a great sword. Rev.6:4
Power was given unto them over the fourth part of
the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and
with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev.6:8
There was a great earthquake; and the sun became
black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as
blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when
she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven
departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and
every mountain and island were moved out of their
places. And the kings of the earth, and the great
men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and
the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free
man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of
the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks,
Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that
sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the
Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and
who shall be able to stand? Rev.6:12-17
There followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and
they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of
trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt
up. Rev.8:7
A great mountain burning with fire was cast into the
sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And
the third part of the creatures which were in the
sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the
ships were destroyed. Rev.8:8-9
There fell a great star from heaven, burning as it
were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the
rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the
name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third
part of the waters became wormwood; and many men
died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev.8:10-11
The third part of the sun was smitten, and the third
part of the moon, and the third part of the stars;
so as the third part of them was darkened, and the
day shone not for a third part of it, and the night
likewise. Rev.8:12
He opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke
out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and
the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the
smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke
locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given
power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And
it was commanded them that they should not hurt the
grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither
any tree; but only those men which have not the seal
of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given
that they should not kill them, but that they should
be tormented five months: and their torment was as
the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not
find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall
flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were
like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their
heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their
faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as
the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth
of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were
breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings
was as the sound of chariots of many horses running
to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions,
and there were stings in their tails: and their power
was to hurt men five months. Rev.9:2-10
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared
for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for
to slay the third part of men. And the number of the
army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand
thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I
saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on
them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth,
and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as
the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued
fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the
third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the
smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of
their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and
in their tails: for their tails were like unto
serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev.9:15-19
I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they
shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore
days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive
trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the
God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them,
fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth
their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he
must in this manner be killed. These have power to
shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their
prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them
to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues,
as often as they will. Rev.11:3-6
There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men
which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which
worshipped his image. And the second angel poured out
his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of
a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
And the third angel poured out his vial upon the
rivers and fountains of waters; and they became
blood. Rev.16:2-4
The fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun;
and power was given unto him to scorch men with
fire. And men were scorched with great heat.
Rev.16:8-9
The fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of
the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and
they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed
the God of heaven because of their pains and their
sores. Rev.16:10-11
The sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great
river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried
up, that the way of the kings of the east might be
prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs
come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the
mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the
false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils,
working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of
the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to
the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev.16:12-14
There was a great earthquake, such as was not since
men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and
so great. And the great city was divided into three
parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great
Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto
her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his
wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains
were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail
out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a
talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague
of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding
great. Rev.16:18-21
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon,
and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of
nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves
roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the
earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And
then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud
with power and great glory. Lk.21:25-27
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: Day of the Lord - Part 2 |
18 Dec 2005 06:07:36 AM |
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Ananias917 posted on Dec 18, 1:34 am:
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of world
wide?
Yes. But we need not fear, and we need not invent the
lie of full preterism, or partial preterism, or a
pre-wrath rapture, or a mid-trib rapture, or a
pre-trib rapture, or mandatory miraculous
protection, or any other lie in a desperate attempt
to assuage our anxiety regarding the coming world-
wide destruction. We need to deal with our fear
directly, cut it out at the root, not try to cover
it up with a lie.
"Deliver them who through fear of death were all
their lifetime subject to bondage" (Heb.2:15).
"To live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philip.1:21).
"Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be
removed, and though the mountains be carried into
the midst of the sea" (Ps.46:2).
"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy" (1Pet.4:12-13).
Don't be fearful! And don't be a liar!
"The fearful... and all liars, shall have their part
in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death" (Rev.21:8).
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Day if the Lord - Part 2 |
18 Dec 2005 04:30:20 AM |
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Where in Strong's does it give "planet" as a meaning for "kosmos"?
Jani
"Ananias917" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ij9aq1d0g13h9cm8549sdhf9oa5popgmpt@4ax.com...
The subject of the "Day of the Lord" is dealt with
in three parts.
1) Was the destruction that Jesus spoke of
world wide?
2) What are the "stellar events" that Jesus spoke of?
3) What does the "Day of the Lord" mean?
Last time we dealt with "Part 1", which was about
whether or not the destruction that Jesus spoke of
was world wide and we saw that it was not.
The link to that message, in case you missed it,
or wish to refresh your memory, before reading
this message, is at the following link...
http://tinyurl.com/a8326
This is "Part 2" and in it, we will deal with what
Jesus meant by the statements He made about
stellar events.
Was He talking about actual events? Or was it simple
hyperbole and exaggeration, to stress a point about
an actual event, that would take place, but just not
with "stars falling" and "the Sun going dark", etc.?
The first thing to understand, is that Jesus was a Jew.
The next thing to understand, is that He was speaking
to Jews and would have used language familiar to Jews,
who btw, were raised learning the Scriptures and not
the "Cat in the Hat" series. :)
Also, we should understand that Jesus is God and would
have used the language that God has used throughout
the Scriptures.
But was it uncommon to make the type of statements
that Jesus made in Mat 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21
(Mark 13 & Luke 21 are parallel accounts of Mat 24)?
Is that type of language found elsewhere in Scripture?
And what I mean by that, is the Old Testament, because
in this case, it doesn't matter what the New Testament
says. You see, we are trying to show a pattern BEFORE
the New Testament, to see if Jesus was using language
ALREADY known to the people He spoke to, amen?
There is ONE RULE YOU MUST APPLY!!!
Ask yourself, when you hear interpretations, knowing
that God does not try to confuse people...
"If I was a Jew in THAT time, would what this person
TODAY is telling me it means, make sense to me?"
That's it! Ask yourself THAT question!
Now admittedly, to answer that question takes knowledge
but it can be obtained. It is my statement, that the
futurist view comes from ignorance of the Old Testament
which would be fine, except they still ignore it when
it is shown to them. (:
So try to keep an open mind here and understand, that
as a Jew, in that time, it is the Old Testament texts
that would have come to mind for you, when you were
listening to someone who claimed to be the Messiah.
So what are the "stellar statements" that Jesus made?
They are found in Matthew 24:29-30. So let's take a
look and see if we can read the passages together and
break them down...
Matthew 24:29-30
29a) And immediately after the affliction of those days
the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her
light,
In Jewish thinking in those days, the Sun was symbolic
for the light of God. The Moon reflects the light of
the Sun onto Earth and in the same way, the Jewish
people reflect the light of God on Earth. This is a
very simple and verifiable teaching of that time.
As for the futurist contention that v29a is a should
be read literally, note the following passage from
the Old Testament and see if the language isn't
the same...
Ezekiel 32:7-8,15
7) And when I shall put thee out, I will cover
the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon
shall not give her light.
8) All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark
over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith
the Lord GOD.
15) When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate,
and the country shall be destitute of that whereof
it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell
therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD.
This prophecy was FULFILLED when Egypt was destroyed.
Again, note the similarity to Matthew, quoted above.
Now tell me, what is so different in the language?
Are the end timers prepared to tell me that...
A) These weren't fulfilled and the Lord is a liar?
Or...
B) They were fulfilled and these weren't literal events
described, but rather, symbolic picture language?
Don't the above passages describe the same type
of event and use the SAME LANGUAGE?
Now pay SPECIAL ATTENTION to this one...
Isaiah 13:9-10
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both
with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations
thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine.
This was FULFILLED when Babylon was conquered
by the Medes and Persians. Note the similarity of
language used compared to the quote from Matthew
above. It's saying the SAME THING about a FULFILLED
prophecy.
29b) and the stars will fall from the heaven, and
the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30a) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land
will wail.
I think we can agree that v30 comes after v29. :)
I think we can also agree that Jesus is describing
the events in v30 as coming after v29, by the use
of the words, "And then...".
Now, the first thing to understand, is that a star
could not fall to Earth. A star is many times bigger
than the Earth and if anything, the Earth would get
sucked into its gravitational pull and not vice versa.
But assuming that it could happen and a star struck
the Earth, it would disintegrate the Earth (this would
actually happen before it even got close to the Earth).
In other words, the Earth would be gone, gone, gone.
Now that we have established basic scientific fact,
tell me, if this is speaking about the whole planet
and stars literally hit the Earth, how would there
be any tribes left on the Earth, which wouldn't even
be here after that, to mourn (v30)?
And no it's not meteorites.
1) They claim literalism in the text.
2) Jesus said "stars".
3) If He meant meteorites, he could have said,
"burning rocks", or something to that effect.
He didn't, so it is stars and NOT meteorites.
That is simply an attempt by the end timers
to get around the text that they claim is LITERAL.
And let us not forget, the whole idea here, is to show
that this type of language was used in the Scriptures
already and was understood to be symbolic. And I
have proved this. No Jew standing there, would
have taken Jesus' words as being physically literal
regarding the stars and the Sun and the Moon.
This was simply the same type of symbolic language
that they were used to and it meant simply that
God was going to turn away His protection from
that land and leave it to the armies that He sent
in to destroy it.
We do have some historical documentation of this
taking place when the Roman army destroyed
Jerusalem...
Historical evidence of the return of Jesus being the
judgment on Jerusalem and the surrounding area.
Heavenly phenomena:
- A star resembling a sword
- A comet (Halley's Comet)
- A bright light shining around the altar
and the temple
- A vision of chariots and soldiers running around
among the clouds and all cities of Palestine.
Earthly phenomena (reported by priests)
- A quaking
- A great noise
- The sounds of a great multitude saying,
"Let us remove hence."
Read the testimonies and get more detailed information
at the following link...
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
30b) And they will see the Son of Man coming on
the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
So here, the end timers have Jesus riding on a cloud
and somehow, everyone around the world will see Him.
That very impressive, considering that "line of sight"
problem that occurs, since the Earth is round. :)
And if He projects a vision of Himself, then haven't
they left the physical literalism that they claimed? :)
And remember, my only burden of proof here, is to
show that Jesus used language that was already know
to the Jews of that time, in the Old Testament
Scriptures. And if He did, then He, being God,
who would have given the word in the first place,
would have been consistent with being God and
would have used the same type of language He
always had, amen?
Anyway, note the following passage, which is a
fulfilled prophecy...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon
a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they literally see the Lord riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Is this not describing God riding on a cloud?
Is that not the same thing that Jesus said?
How about this one, which is a Psalm of David,
AFTER God delivered him from his enemies?
Psalm 18:9,14
9) He bowed the heavens also, and came down:
and darkness was under his feet.
14) Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered
them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited
them.
Did God literally "bow the heavens"?
Did He literally have "darkness under His feet"?
Did God literally "send out arrows"?
Did God literally "shoot out lightnings" to defeat
David's enemies?
Neither of these (and there are more examples)
are literal statements and yet, they wish to take
Matthew 24:27-30 literally. That just doesn't
make sense. (:
I believe that I have proved that these statements are
symbolic and as such, say something that a Jew in the
1st century would have easily understood. Remember,
back then, in school, they learned Scriptures and they
attended temple faithfully every Sabbath and the Old
Testament Scriptures were read to them. It's not like
today, where many churches don't really deal with the
Old Testament hardly at all. Right or wrong, whatever.
You judge. But that fact still remains.
When Jesus spoke of SEEING Him riding on a cloud,
He was speaking of UNDERSTANDING that He was
present in judgment. He used the word that way
already...
"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they
seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do
they understand." - Matthew 13:13
Jesus limited this to a local event.
Luke 21:20-22
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with
armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judea flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it
depart out; and let not them that are in the countries
enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things
which are written may be fulfilled.
But what of the whole planet seeing Him return?
Well first of all, when Acts 1:9-11 is quoted ("in like
manner"), it must be noted that only those standing
there saw Him and not the whole world, so when
they say that we will all see Him return, because
Acts 1:9-11 says, "in like manner", that can't be true,
since those passages show that only those standing
there saw Him leave and it must be noted that what
it actually says, is that a cloud received Him, "out
of their sight". Thus, they didn't actually physically
see Him leave. They saw a cloud. :) So it would be
a contradiction to say that the whole planet must
see Him return.
And what of Revelation 1:7? Doesn't it say that
every eye will see Him?
Well, first of all, I'm going to leave a lot of this
for the "Day of the Lord" post (Part 3), so I won't
go into it all here. But since this is also part of
the world seeing Him subject, let us look there
and see what it actually says, as far as whether
or not the planet is being described...
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye
shall see him, and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because
of him. Even so, Amen." - Revelation 1:7
First of all, the word translated as kindreds is,
you guessed it... "phule". :) This is noting the
tribes of the Jews, which is how this word is
always used in Scripture!
Secondly, the word translated as "earth" (and
remember, we don't correct the original writing
with the translation, but rather, the other way
around), is actually "ge" and means a region,
not the planet.
The word for the planet was used by the writers
of the NT and they did know the difference. And
our doctrines do not correct Scripture! It is the
other way around! And if we begin to claim that
they just didn't know any better, then we are saying
that we know better than those who walked with
Jesus and spoke to Him and that God couldn't
keep His word straight! I for one, do NOT want
to be in THAT camp! :)
The word for the planet is "kosmos", as I said
and it is used often in Scripture. For example,
read Mat 4:8; 5:14; 13:35,38, etc., etc. (and is
not used in Rev 1:7).
In fact, many times in translations when it says
"world", or "earth", it isn't that at all. Look at
the KJV in Matthew 24:3. The Greek word
there is "aion" and means, "an age", not the planet.
Compare other translations and you'll see that
most of them translate it as "age".
Anyway, Revelation 1:7 says that the tribes in that
region would see Him return, not the whole planet.
The whole planet could not see Him physically
return anyway, since as I said, the planet is round
and there would be what's called a "line of sight"
issue. And again, if someone says that He will
project a vision of Himself, then have they not
just left the physical literalism that they claim
is there? :)
But anyway, to deal with the Revelation 1:7,
"every eye shall see Him" issue, the theory goes
as follows...
1) Everyone sees Jesus return.
2) Then the resurrection takes place and everyone
is judged.
But wait a minute... You see, they quote the passage
that says... "every eye shall see Him...". And that's
all they quote! Just that part of the passage!
But isn't that only half of the passage? Let's look at
the whole thing...
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see
him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds
of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."
- Revelation 1:7
Note that after what they quote, it also says...
"AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM".
Wasn't He crucified in the first century? And if
"they who pierced Him" must see Him return,
doesn't that place it in the first century?
"Oh, they see Him after the resurrection", they say.
But wait a minute... The theory is that the world
sees Him and THEN the resurrection takes place,
so I'm sorry, but that doesn't work! His return is
smack right in the first century, no matter how
ya slice it! :)
Now couple this with the fact that Jesus said about
the temple that "not one stone will be left upon
another" and in 70 AD, the Roman army burned
the Temple and afterward, pried each and every
stone apart, to retrieve the melted gold that ran
in between them (the doors alone were 40 ft high
and covered in gold) and also add the fact that
Jesus did not say, "But I mean this will happen
twice" and we see that His words were fulfilled
to the letter!
Now this is just a bit of what I am saying, but from
this thus far, what say ye? Is it what I'm saying that
"adds to Scripture"?
Or is it the, "It's physically literal and the Bible
says Europe and nuclear weapons will be involved",
that adds to Scripture?
The bottom line is that, as far as Jesus said, this was
to be an event that occurred in Jerusalem and in Judea
and not the whole planet. THAT'S ALL HE SAID!!!
And I have PROVED BEYOND ANY DOUBT that
Jesus used language that WAS COMMON TO
SCRIPTURE.
I hope this has been helpful to all who seek the truth!
Take care and God bless! :)
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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