Religions > Bible > Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Doug" |
| Date: |
24 May 2007 09:47:01 PM |
| Object: |
Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
The prophecy of Daniel 8 shows that Antiochus IV initiated a revision of
the cosmology of the Old Testament, that redefined the 'raqia' of
Genesis 1 with heaven, and that he assigned the diurnal rotation to the
heavens. It is what is meant by "the continual was lifted up on high" in
Daniel 8:11; the knowledge of the earth's rotation was stamped out, and
replaced with the idea of the heavens revolving around the earth, which
implied a rigid sphere of heaven or firmament. This interpretation of
Daniel's prophecy has been explained and discussed in some detail in
other threads, or one can find additional information here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
A confirmation that a change in the meaning of 'raqia' occurred during
the hellenistic period has come to light, in one of the scrolls from the
Qumran community near the Dead Sea.
Among the first of the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in the Judean desert
in 1947, there was a work known as the 'Thanksgiving Hymns'. Eight
copies, in various states of preservation, were found in different
caves. They are Psalms written in Hebrew. One of them, Psalm 6 [1QH col
3:31], refers to the earth's crust as 'raqia' in a passage that
describes a fiery conflagration, that destroys the trees, the streams,
the dust of the earth, the foundations of the mountains, and even the
souls of those in the abyss, or the underworld!
The phrase containing the word is: "it devoureth the foundations of clay
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
The word 'raqia' is the same as the word translated 'firmament' in
Genesis 1. In the above context it is also translated "expanse" or
"extension" by some scholars. In Isaiah 42:5, 44:24, and Psalm 136:6 it
refers to the surface of the earth. This use of 'raqia' in hymns of the
Qumran sect clearly shows it was commonly associated with the earth,
rather than heaven, when the hymn was written, probably in the 3rd or
2nd century BC.
It is to be expected that in the isolation of a desert community, hymns
of the faithful would not have been affected by the revision of the
cosmology of the scriptures initiated by Antiochus IV and the Jews who
supported him. The hellenization campaign must have bypassed the Qumran
community. But among the rest of the Jewish population, the original
meaning of 'raqia' was thoroughly purged; originally it referred to the
earth's crust, but its meaning was changed to the rigid sphere of
heaven, by addition of "And God called the firmament Heaven" in Genesis
1:8.
The destruction of the Qumran community by Herod wiped out the
population, and the scrolls remained where they were for 19 centuries,
until their dicovery by Bedouins in 1947. That explains the preservation
of the ancient meaning of 'raqia' in some of the scrolls that were
hidden in the caves.
Some scholars suppose the Qumran community was established by the
'hasidim' during the persecution of Jews in the reign of Antiochus IV.
About that time is when the text of Genesis 1 was changed, and the
'raqia' was identified with the sky by the corruptions. The diurnal
rotation was assigned to the heavens. While the 'raqia' was redefined in
the wider Jewish community, its old meaning remained in the text of the
hymn cited above.
This evidence of the change in the meaning of 'raqia' supports the new
interpretation of Daniel's prophecy. The fraudulent change of the
cosmology of the scriptures was initiated by Antiochus IV, and
implemented by hellenized Jews who admired the Homeric cosmology with
its rigid heaven. The message of the gospel in the Bible is not
discredited by the flawed cosmology of the scriptures; those
cosmological corruptions were foretold, and so they confirm the truth of
prophecy! They show that Christ is in control of human destiny. He
enlightens men, at the appropriate time.
The same prophecy foretold the scientific revolution, 2,300 years from
the date of Daniel's vision. The atheists and skeptics who reject the
scriptures, because of the so-called "rigid dome" cosmology it contains,
and who sneer at the gospel of Christ, are victims of the fraud of
Antiochus IV.
Reference
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
02 Jun 2007 01:19:26 PM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
The 'raqia' in 1Q3:31, one of the "Thanksgiving Hymns" scrolls, clearly
refers to the surface of the earth, rather than heaven, which confirms
there was a change in the meaning of 'raqia' as I have previously
written.
what is this crap in English ; i asked you for the SOURCE TEXT.
have you seen it ?
can you read phoenician or paleo hebrew or paleo aramaic ...?
can you please post the relevant text here ?
Why not check out the web page below where you can see the Hebrew text?
Either of the following links should work. Otherwise, I suggest
contacting some translation service. I believe there are some on the Net
who do it for a fee, but it is not something that I offer.
i did not ask for a 'translation' -- are you being facetious or do you
imagine 'transliteration' to mean 'translation' ?
i asked you to print the original source here on the thread.
use romanization or use a consistent transliteration scheme.
the reason why i ask you to do so is to address your original claim
directly.
you fundamentalists have the nasty habit for making these claims about
texts you cannot read in the first place.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
02 Jun 2007 03:30:52 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
i did not ask for a 'translation'
Neither did I.
-- are you being facetious or do you
imagine 'transliteration' to mean 'translation' ?
i asked you to print the original source here on the thread.
use romanization or use a consistent transliteration scheme.
the reason why i ask you to do so is to address your original claim
directly.
If you are interested you can go to the web pages I provided. Or see the
references below. I have seen three translations of the verse in which
'raqia' is used for the earth. These are:
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
The foundations of the mountains by burning,
And the roots of flint by the rivers of pitch.
And it devours as far as the great abyss
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press. pp 58-59
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
extension (raqia) of the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
.... into the walls of clay it shall devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land.
The foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze
with fire and the roots of flint rock (shall become)
streams of pitch. And it shall consume into the great
abyss.
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
Each author uses a different word for 'raqia': 'surface', 'extension',
and 'expanse'. How about firmament"? Of course it would not fit at all
in this context, as the 'raqia' here is obviously the earth's rocky
crust, or the earth's surface. The evidence from this Psalm from the
Dead Sea Scrolls confirms that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed, as
foretold by Daniel. The scholars failed to notice its significance.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
03 Jun 2007 03:26:43 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
i did not ask for a 'translation'
Neither did I.
but you are using translations. why ?
can you not read the source fragments ?
-- are you being facetious or do you
imagine 'transliteration' to mean 'translation' ?
i asked you to print the original source here on the thread.
use romanization or use a consistent transliteration scheme.
the reason why i ask you to do so is to address your original claim
directly.
If you are interested you can go to the web pages I provided. Or see the
references below.
so let's see each instance in the source, Liar.
Each author uses a different word for 'raqia': 'surface', 'extension',
and 'expanse'. How about firmament"? Of course it would not fit at all
in this context, as the 'raqia' here is obviously the earth's rocky
crust, or the earth's surface. The evidence from this Psalm from the
Dead Sea Scrolls confirms that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed, as
foretold by Daniel. The scholars failed to notice its significance.
you wouldn't even recognize the word in paleo aramaic so who are you
fooling ?
you can't even come to grips with the word `miqdasho` in sepher
daniel, and imagine that Antiochus pulled the heavens down to the
earth.
you then claim such is figurative -- yet `kokvim` 'stars' must be
'literal' --
the dishonesty and ignorance of fundmanetalists such as yourself is
reprehensible.
you people call yourselves Christians but you rape and mutilate the
texts and wiping your mouths claim you did nothing wrong.
if you cannot read the source simply admit such and admit that your
sources are all english reinterpretations .
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
03 Jun 2007 07:55:32 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
i did not ask for a 'translation'
Neither did I.
but you are using translations. why ?
FYI, the language generally used in the newsgroups that I posted to is
English!
<snip>
Each author uses a different word for 'raqia': 'surface', 'extension',
and 'expanse'. How about firmament"? Of course it would not fit at all
in this context, as the 'raqia' here is obviously the earth's rocky
crust, or the earth's surface. The evidence from this Psalm from the
Dead Sea Scrolls confirms that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed, as
foretold by Daniel. The scholars failed to notice its significance.
you wouldn't even recognize the word in paleo aramaic so who are you
fooling ?
Evidently the Hebrew scholars missed one of the most curious things that
have resulted from the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, as they were
ignorant of the fraud initiated by Antiochus IV, which resulted in the
revision of the cosmology of the OT, and the redefinition of 'raqia' as
'Heaven' in Genesis 1:8. It was foretold in one of the prophecies of
Daniel, which they did not understand, and so they were victims of the
fraud of Antiochus, and the hellenized Jews who assisted in creating and
promoting the corruptions.
you can't even come to grips with the word `miqdasho` in sepher
daniel, and imagine that Antiochus pulled the heavens down to the
earth.
Daniel 8:11 says the horn of the goat which grew tall, and reached the
sky and cast stars to the earth also cast God's sanctuary to the ground,
which can be explained, or interpreted, as follows; Antiochus IV and his
agents redefined the word 'raqia' as heaven in Genesis 1:8, by the
addition of 'And God called the firmament Heaven'. This equated the
earth with the rigid heaven or firmament of the geocentric cosmology.
The word 'raqia' originally referred to the earth, as shown by its use
in 1QH 3:31, which Holm-Nielsen translates 'it devoureth the foundations
of clay and the "extension" of the dry land.' He translates the word
'raqia' as "extension". [Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from
Qumram. Acta Theologica Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus.
pp. 64-65]
Other translations (see my previous post for references) are:
The foundations of clay it consumes and the dry land 'surface'
or:
into the walls of clay it shall devour; And into the 'expanse' of the
dry land.
There can be no disputing that in this Hymn, the word 'raqia' is used
for the earth's crust or the earth's surface, which shows that was its
meaning when the Psalm was written, probably in the 2nd century BC. The
corruptions of biblical texts that equated the 'raqia' with heaven
appeared about the time of Antiochus IV, 175-163 BCE. They probably had
little effect on the Qumran community. See:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
If the other words commonly used for 'raqia', such as 'firmament' or
'dome' or 'vault' are substituted in this text, it makes no sense; for
example, consider:
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
'firmament' of the dry land,
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
'dome' of the dry land,
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
'vault' of the dry land,
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
'sky' of the dry land,
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
'heaven' of the dry land,
None of these make any sense. So what options does 'Ha Satan' have? What
word could he suggest as an alternative? Evidently he has no basis for
refuting the evidence, so he resorts to abuse.
The foundation on which the skeptics and atheists base their disbelief,
the so-called 'primitive' cosmology of the Bible, is shown to be the
result of the fraud initiated by a pagan king, who wished to supress
belief in the heliocentric cosmology, and who actively promoted the
worship of Zeus and other pagan deities. Antiochus had committed himself
to building and embellishing the great temples of Zeus in the ancient
world, including the one at Athens, the greatest of all the temples in
Greece.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
04 Jun 2007 10:30:44 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Daniel 8:11 says the horn of the goat which grew tall, and reached the
sky and cast stars to the earth also cast God's sanctuary to the ground,
you are omitting the word `miqdasho` which refers to the `sar` -- and
who might that be ?
you've already been explained this so now you are simply lying.
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
the Latin Vulgate translates such `firmamentum` and this word has you
running in circles ;
the word simply means a flat hammered out surface.
it is related to 'spread' in the hebrew.
That is point No.1
Point No.2 you are claiming Antiochus revised the hebrew scriptures as
if the Hebrews were not going to notice. Take note that the
Septuagint was translated circa 250 BCE -- a century prior to
Antiochus (80 years).
Point No.3 you can't even read one line of the text in the first place
-- and such is evident concerning vocabulary such as `sar ha'tzava`
and `kokvim` , and then you cite Homer in English and evidence that
you know not the meaning of the word `ouranos`
Now you have been showed these aspects several times yet DECIDE to
persist in the falsification of the sepher (daniel).
we call this "blatant lying"
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
05 Jun 2007 10:31:11 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Daniel 8:11 says the horn of the goat which grew tall, and reached the
sky and cast stars to the earth also cast God's sanctuary to the ground,
you are omitting the word `miqdasho` which refers to the `sar` -- and
who might that be ?
you've already been explained this so now you are simply lying.
God's sanctuary is heaven; Solomon said,
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of
heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
The description of the throne of God above the 'firmament' in this
chapter is clearly a corruption introduced in the hellenistic period,
that identifies the 'raqia' or firmament with the rigid sky.
The "wheels" of vs. 15-21 suggest the influence of Eudoxus, who proposed
four homocentric spheres for each of the planets to account for their
observed motions.
the Latin Vulgate translates such `firmamentum` and this word has you
running in circles ;
In Old Latin, `firmamentum` meant "support", or "prop", and was used to
refer to "the strong point of an argument", but was never used to refer
to the sky. However in the later centuries, it was used to translate the
word 'raqia' in the (corrupted) text of Genesis 1:8, probably to
avoid saying "And God called the caelum caelum".
the word simply means a flat hammered out surface.
it is related to 'spread' in the hebrew.
Psalm 136:6,
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy
endureth for ever.
The above refers to events on day 2 of creation, when God 'stretched
out' the 'raqia' in the midst of the waters. The statement in Genesis
1:8 that God named it "heaven" is a corruption, introduced in the 2nd
century BC. It was the earth that was formed in the midst of the waters,
not heaven. The fraud is exposed by Daniel's prophecy.
See also 2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the
heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the
water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Peter here refers to the corruption of the text of Genesis 1, and the
redefinition of 'raqia' with the rigid heaven, by the hellenized Jews
who admired the geocentric cosmology, and wanted to introduce the notion
of a rigid heaven into their scriptures.
That is point No.1
Point No.2 you are claiming Antiochus revised the hebrew scriptures as
if the Hebrews were not going to notice.
Nonsense, it was mentioned by the author of 1 Maccabees. He says the
heathen had "painted the likeness of their idols" in the book of the
law, during the period of persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV.
1 Macc 3:46-48:
"Wherefore the Israelites assembled themselves together, and came to
Maspha, over against Jerusalem; for in Maspha was the place where they
prayed aforetime in Israel. Then they fasted that day, and put on
sackcloth, and cast ashes upon their heads, and rent their clothes, And
laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint
the likeness of their images."
Take note that the
Septuagint was translated circa 250 BCE -- a century prior to
Antiochus (80 years).
Even the fictional story on which this claim is based confirms that the
text of the OT was 'corrected' in some fashion by the Greeks. It is
often said when a variant interpretation is introduced in the scriptures
by means of translation that it is a 'correction', even today. The
'Letter of Aristeas' is an ancient example of it.
The Letter of Aristeas claims the Hebrew books of the Law had been
"carelessly committed to writing" and needed to be 'corrected' under the
supervision of the Greek court. Presumably the story in meant to account
for the discrepancy between the Greek version and the older texts, as it
implies the LXX, having been "corrected", is superior to the original
Hebrew text.
Of course it is unlikely the original Hebrew scrolls were written
'carelessly' as the Letter of Aristeas claims; it is simply propaganda
for the Greek version, and was intended to promote its authority.
The Letter of Aristeas also suggests that Zeus and Yehweh are simply
different names for the same deity. In those days, the hellenized Jews,
along with the Greeks, thought the cosmology of the Hebrew scriptures
needed to be revised, in order to support the geocentric view. The claim
that the scriptures needed 'correction' occurs in the 'Memorandium of
Dimetrius' [Bartlett, J.R., 1985. Jews in the Hellenistic World,
Cambridge U. Press. p. 20-21.]:
"Books of the Law of the Jews, with some few others, are wanting. For it
happens that these books are written in the Hebrew script and language,
but, according to the evidence of the experts, have been somewhat
carelessly committed to writing and are not in their original form; for
they have never had the benefit of royal attention. It is important that
these books, duly corrected, should find a place in your library,
because this legislation, in as much as it is divine, is of
philosophical importance and of innate integrity."
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
05 Jun 2007 11:37:07 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Daniel 8:11 says the horn of the goat which grew tall, and reached the
sky and cast stars to the earth also cast God's sanctuary to the ground,
you are omitting the word `miqdasho` which refers to the `sar` -- and
who might that be ?
you've already been explained this so now you are simply lying.
God's sanctuary is heaven; Solomon said,
1 Kings 8:27
Good. You may now abandon the erroneous reinterpretion that the `sar`
refers to the creator.
and thus abandon the false premise.
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
The description of the throne of God above the 'firmament' in this
chapter is clearly a corruption introduced in the hellenistic period,
that identifies the 'raqia' or firmament with the rigid sky.
The "wheels"
Changing the subject again ?
You were whining about `raqiya`
The `raqiya` canopy above the heads of the cherubim is not the sky but
objects covering the cherubim.
Thus the word `raqiya` --referring to a flat surface -- did not
change.
That is point No.1
Point No.2 you are claiming Antiochus revised the hebrew scriptures as
if the Hebrews were not going to notice.
Nonsense, it was mentioned by the author of 1 Maccabees. He says the
heathen had "painted the likeness of their idols" in the book of the
law, during the period of persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV.
1 Macc 3:46-48:
"Wherefore the Israelites assembled themselves together, and came to
Maspha, over against Jerusalem; for in Maspha was the place where they
prayed aforetime in Israel. Then they fasted that day, and put on
sackcloth, and cast ashes upon their heads, and rent their clothes, And
laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint
the likeness of their images."
The torah septuagint dates from 250 BCE.
Where is the evidence that Greeks brainwashed the Jews into a new
definition for `raqiya` -- a hammered flat surface ?
The word is the same before and after 164 BCE.
The Letter of Aristeas claims the Hebrew books of the Law had been
"carelessly committed to writing" and needed to be 'corrected' under the
supervision of the Greek court. Presumably the story in meant to account
for the discrepancy between the Greek version and the older texts, as it
implies the LXX, having been "corrected", is superior to the original
Hebrew text.
Of course it is unlikely the original Hebrew scrolls were written
'carelessly' as the Letter of Aristeas claims; it is simply propaganda
for the Greek version, and was intended to promote its authority.
No evidence that `raqiya` meant something different before 164 BCE.
one would think that such a great discovery would be preceded by at
least being able to read the relevant passages in hebrew or aramaic.
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Start from scratch and begin studying torah and the relevant ketuvim
in the source text.
Too much to do in too little time ?
Too bad.
See a therapist about it.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
05 Jun 2007 02:20:24 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
<snip>
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
The description of the throne of God above the 'firmament' in this
chapter is clearly a corruption introduced in the hellenistic period,
that identifies the 'raqia' or firmament with the rigid sky.
The "wheels"
Changing the subject again ?
You were whining about `raqiya`
The `raqiya` canopy above the heads of the cherubim is not the sky but
objects covering the cherubim.
Clearly, you have failed to comprehend what it is all about. But maybe I
can help you inform yourself. Skipwith, the author of the following
account, suggests it is indeed referring to the heavens, as conceived in
the geocentric cosmology of the hellenistic age.
<begin quote>
p. 692. The vision of Ezekiel, with its strange admixture of poetic
splendour, prosaic exactitude, and irrational confusion, has borrowed
its materials from old tradition, but has shaped them in the land of
dreams, under the influence of Chaldean Art. We must separate its
elements in order to understand them The likeness of a throne ... is
placed upon the likeness of a firmament, ... corresponding to the
firmament of heaven clear as crystal, and blue as *lapis lazuli,
"thick inlaid with patines of bright gold." ... the origin of the
conception must be sought in Exod. xxiv.10 ...
p. 699. We are not in a position to judge in what manner the great
phenomena of Nature presented themselves to the apprehension of the
prophet and his hearers. "There is One enthroned upon the heavens, but
it is Jahveh; there is indeed a god who rides in the whirlwind and
directs the storm, but it is the God of Israel. Four mighty beings
bear aloft the firmament, and rule the winds: these also are his
ministers." Such is the interpretation of the vision. And, as the
movements of the atmosphere are represented by the ... so the
revolution of the celestial sphere, and the wandering course of the
planets, find expression in the .... As there was originally one
Cherub (Ps xviii.11), so was there originally but one Wheel; for the
four do not differ in kind. Each must apparently be conceived as
consisting of two intersecting circles - it would seem of equal
diameter - capable therefore, as a whole, of rolling from east to
west, from north to south, or in the reverse directions, but incapable
of any other motion, of turning upon an axle, or of forming part of
any mechanical construction. (By this time we begin to perceive that
the "chariot" is not a chariot at all, nor in fact does Ezekiel call
it so.) The Wheel is moved *from within* by the inspiration of the
several winds, and in their respective directions ... (vers. 19, 20,
21). And even as they do, it serves in some manner to sustain and to
transport the throne of God. The periphery is full of eyes - that is,
as I suppose, of stars - round about, and, in fine, the Wheel clearly
represents either the celestial sphere, or more precisely, the Zodiac.
Its fourfold motions express, and were perhaps designed to explain,
the diurnal revolution of the heavens, the displacement of the planets
in latitude, and their sometimes retrograde course. ... Were we to
suppose each planet provided with a distinct wheel or sphere ... we
should approach very nearly the Ptolemaic astronomy.
<end quote>
Reference:
Skipwith, Grey Hubert. 1907. "The Lord of Heaven." (The Fire of God; The
Mountain Summit; The Divine Chariot; And the Vision of Ezekiel.) The
Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Jul., 1907), pp. 688-703
Thus the word `raqiya` --referring to a flat surface -- did not
change.
Evidence from several independent sources suggests that it did, and that
is what Daniel's prophecy also shows.
That is point No.1
Point No.2 you are claiming Antiochus revised the hebrew scriptures as
if the Hebrews were not going to notice.
Nonsense, it was mentioned by the author of 1 Maccabees. He says the
heathen had "painted the likeness of their idols" in the book of the
law, during the period of persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV.
1 Macc 3:46-48:
"Wherefore the Israelites assembled themselves together, and came to
Maspha, over against Jerusalem; for in Maspha was the place where they
prayed aforetime in Israel. Then they fasted that day, and put on
sackcloth, and cast ashes upon their heads, and rent their clothes, And
laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint
the likeness of their images."
The torah septuagint dates from 250 BCE.
As I understand it, that is based on the account in the Letter of
Aristeas, which is thought to have originated about 150 AD.
Where is the evidence that Greeks brainwashed the Jews into a new
definition for `raqiya` -- a hammered flat surface ?
The word is the same before and after 164 BCE.
The Jews themselves probably came up with the idea. It probably seemed
like an improvement, that made their scriptures seem more 'modern' and
compatible with the popular cosmology of the hellenistic age, that
featured a rigid heaven revolving around a stationary earth. The leaders
of the Jews at Jerusalem in the 2nd century BC, when Antiochus IV came
to the Seleucid throne, were hellenists.
The Letter of Aristeas claims the Hebrew books of the Law had been
"carelessly committed to writing" and needed to be 'corrected' under the
supervision of the Greek court. Presumably the story in meant to account
for the discrepancy between the Greek version and the older texts, as it
implies the LXX, having been "corrected", is superior to the original
Hebrew text.
Of course it is unlikely the original Hebrew scrolls were written
'carelessly' as the Letter of Aristeas claims; it is simply propaganda
for the Greek version, and was intended to promote its authority.
No evidence that `raqiya` meant something different before 164 BCE.
Well, it was written in Greek.
one would think that such a great discovery would be preceded by at
least being able to read the relevant passages in hebrew or aramaic.
God is able to hide things from the wise, and reveal them to babes.
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Now you smear and defame scholars who you don't even know! What are the
'misleading opinions' that you refer to?
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
06 Jun 2007 01:38:31 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
<snip>
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
The description of the throne of God above the 'firmament' in this
chapter is clearly a corruption introduced in the hellenistic period,
that identifies the 'raqia' or firmament with the rigid sky.
The "wheels"
Changing the subject again ?
You were whining about `raqiya`
The `raqiya` canopy above the heads of the cherubim is not the sky but
objects covering the cherubim.
Clearly, you have failed to comprehend what it is all about. But maybe I
can help you
You are changing the subject again.
You claim that Antiochus rewrote torah and the nevi'im and passed it
off to the Jews without the Jews noticing.
You claim that the word `raqiya` proves this.
You claim that the meaning of `raqiya` before and after 164 BCE is
different.
The meaning of `raqiya` is a hammered flat surface.
in sepher yechezqel there is a `raqiya` -- a flat canopy -- over the
heads of the cherubim.
this `raqiya` is BELOW the sky.
Address this in the source text -- don't give me any more of your
obfuscations and ab ignorantum argumentation.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
06 Jun 2007 08:01:48 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
<snip>
The word 'raqia'
the word `raqiya` resh-qoph-yud-ayin refers to a glob of metal that is
hammered out flat.
cf. yechezqel 1:22 where there is a canopy over the heads of the
cherubim.
The description of the throne of God above the 'firmament' in this
chapter is clearly a corruption introduced in the hellenistic period,
that identifies the 'raqia' or firmament with the rigid sky.
The "wheels"
Changing the subject again ?
You were whining about `raqiya`
The `raqiya` canopy above the heads of the cherubim is not the sky but
objects covering the cherubim.
Clearly, you have failed to comprehend what it is all about. But maybe I
can help you
You are changing the subject again.
You claim that Antiochus rewrote torah
Not quite what I said; Antiochus initiated a revision of the cosmology
of the scriptures. The actual work of the revision of the text was done
by others. His policy was to promote hellenization, and the pagan
religion of the Greeks, and suppress the heliocentric theory that was
seen as a threat to belief in Zeus Olympos, the rigid heaven that
revolved around the earth. He decreed that all should become "one people".
1 Maccabees 1
41: Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people,
42: and that each should give up his customs.
43: All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from
Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and
profaned the sabbath.
44: And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the cities
of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land,
45: to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the
sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and feasts,
46: to defile the sanctuary and the priests,
47: to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to
sacrifice swine and unclean animals,
48: and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves
abominable by everything unclean and profane,
49: so that they should forget the law and change all the ordinances.
50: "And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die."
51: In such words he wrote to his whole kingdom. And he appointed
inspectors over all the people and commanded the cities of Judah to
offer sacrifice, city by city.
52: Many of the people, every one who forsook the law, joined them, and
they did evil in the land;
Antiochus appointed officials who implemented his policies of
hellenization. They included hellenized Jews, as Antiochus appointed the
high priests of the Jews during his reign, first Jason, brother of
Onias, and then Menelaus. The real high priest, Onias, was detained in
Antioch, and we can only speculate about what the purpose of this
detention was. While in Antioch, Onias could have assisted in the
revisions of the scriptures, or he may have opposed them, but if the
latter were true, it seems unlikely he would seek refuge in the temple
of Apollo. It is also possible that his role in the revisions was an
unwitting one. His death was mourned by both the Jews and the Greeks,
and Antiochus had his murderer Andronicus put to death. [2 Maccabees
4:33-38]
and the nevi'im and passed it
off to the Jews without the Jews noticing.
The cosmological revisions were obvious, but hellenized Jews probably
welcomed them. They are noted by the author of 1 Maccabees.
1 Macc 3:46-48:
"Wherefore the Israelites assembled themselves together, and came to
Maspha, over against Jerusalem; for in Maspha was the place where they
prayed aforetime in Israel. Then they fasted that day, and put on
sackcloth, and cast ashes upon their heads, and rent their clothes, And
laid open the book of the law, wherein the heathen had sought to paint
the likeness of their images."
You claim that the word `raqiya` proves this.
You claim that the meaning of `raqiya` before and after 164 BCE is
different.
Yes that is shown by the evidence from the Thanksgiving Hymns 1QH 3:31
in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where 'raqia' refers to the earth. It preserves
the original meaning of 'raqia', before it was redefined as 'Heaven' as
a result of the cosmological revisions implemented during the reign of
Antiochus IV.
The meaning of `raqiya` is a hammered flat surface.
in sepher yechezqel there is a `raqiya` -- a flat canopy -- over the
heads of the cherubim.
this `raqiya` is BELOW the sky.
It is quite garbled, due to the corruptions, so there is little
consensus on what is depicted in Ezekiel 1.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
06 Jun 2007 11:19:55 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
revisions of the scriptures, or he may have opposed them, but if the
latter were true, it seems unlikely he would seek refuge in the temple
of Apollo. It is also possible that his role in the revisions was an
unwitting one. His death was mourned by both the Jews and the Greeks,
and Antiochus had his murderer Andronicus put to death. [2 Maccabees
4:33-38]
do you know anything about the history of the religion of Israel ?
The Hellenists were AT WAR with the torah observant Jews.
The Jews were not purchasing their torah sepherot from the Hellenists.
begin by reading Josephus, for example.
You claim that the word `raqiya` proves this.
You claim that the meaning of `raqiya` before and after 164 BCE is
different.
Yes that is shown by the evidence from the Thanksgiving Hymns 1QH 3:31
in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where 'raqia' refers to the earth. It preserves
the original meaning of 'raqia', before it was redefined as 'Heaven' as
please post the sourc text here which shows that `raqiya` -- a
hammered flat surface -- became equivalent to "earth"
use romanization or transliteration , whichever you prefer.
The meaning of `raqiya` is a hammered flat surface.
in sepher yechezqel there is a `raqiya` -- a flat canopy -- over the
heads of the cherubim.
this `raqiya` is BELOW the sky.
It is quite garbled, due to the corruptions, so there is little
consensus on what is depicted in Ezekiel 1.
"quite garbled" ??
No, the passage is crystal clear that the `raqiya` is a canopy above
the heads of the cherubim and BELOW the sky ;
you cannot read it and you are snookered.
case closed.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 09:32:39 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Presumably 'Ha Satan', in desperation, intends by the above to smear and
defame the Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations. What
a goon!
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
The foundations of the mountains by burning,
And the roots of flint by the rivers of pitch.
And it devours as far as the great abyss
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press. pp 58-59
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
extension (raqia) of the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
.... into the walls of clay it shall devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land.
The foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze
with fire and the roots of flint rock (shall become)
streams of pitch. And it shall consume into the great
abyss.
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
If not then explain what "misleading opinions" you were referring to.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 09:57:55 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
If not then explain what "misleading opinions" you were referring to.
for example, you claim in the above (or it is claimed, and then you
apparently endorse such claim) that `raqiya` means "extension"
fiddling with a THESAURUS can lead you to a million reinterpretations
of the word and the self-consistency of the text collapse -- leaving
us nowhere in the pusuit of actually understanding what the authors
intended to present.
simply adhere to the strict meaning in context as used throughout the
TaNaKh.
you claimed that a `qumran` hymn "proves" that `raqiya` means
"earth" ;
the claim is FALSE.
the meaning of raqiya is a hammered flat surface,
cognate with "spread" as in "to spread out"
don't take my word for it ; consult some Jewish persons educated in
their texts.
remember to form the inquiry honestly:
"what is the meaning of raqiya in the TaNaKh?"
forming a misleading question such as ,
can `raqiya` possibly refer to the earth's surface ...?
that is a misleading and dishonest formation of such an inquiry, as
raqiya can refer to any geometric plane in context.
like a curved dome for example ;)
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 11:18:38 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
If not then explain what "misleading opinions" you were referring to.
for example, you claim in the above (or it is claimed, and then you
apparently endorse such claim) that `raqiya` means "extension"
fiddling with a THESAURUS can lead you to a million reinterpretations
of the word and the self-consistency of the text collapse -- leaving
us nowhere in the pusuit of actually understanding what the authors
intended to present.
incidentally, before you establish another "strawman" fallacy -- i am
not criticising the scholar's choice of 'extension' ;
he or she obviously means "the spreading out" of a FLAT surface --
which is precisely the meaning of the hebrew word .
it is left to the dimwits to see "extension" and then flip through a
Strong's Concordance or an English THESAURUS and then return with a
silly smile claiming that they have "discovered" a conspiracy in the
text !
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
21 Jun 2007 06:15:05 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
If not then explain what "misleading opinions" you were referring to.
for example, you claim in the above (or it is claimed, and then you
apparently endorse such claim) that `raqiya` means "extension"
fiddling with a THESAURUS can lead you to a million reinterpretations
of the word and the self-consistency of the text collapse -- leaving
us nowhere in the pusuit of actually understanding what the authors
intended to present.
Ha Satan has put himself in an awkward position here. He labels the
translations presented by the scholars I quoted as "misleading" and now
he has to wriggle out of his inane remark. Its uncharacteristic of him
to apologise for his errors and goofs. So he suggests I endorsed the
interpretations of the scholars I quoted, but I did no such thing, I
merely presented the translations that I have found for readers to
consider and draw their own conclusions. These scholars have offered the
following alternative interpretations for 'raqia': 'surface',
'extension', and 'expanse'. I have neither 'endorsed' nor objected to
any of these. The three translations of the text where 'raqia' occurs
are presented below:
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes
and the dry land surface (raqia),
The foundations of the mountains by burning,
And the roots of flint by the rivers of pitch.
And it devours as far as the great abyss
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press. pp 58-59
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
extension (raqia) of the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
.... into the walls of clay it shall devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land.
The foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze
with fire and the roots of flint rock (shall become)
streams of pitch. And it shall consume into the great
abyss.
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
simply adhere to the strict meaning in context as used throughout the
TaNaKh.
you claimed that a `qumran` hymn "proves" that `raqiya` means
"earth" ;
the claim is FALSE.
Actually, I merely pointed out that the word 'raqia' was used in this
Qumran hymn in reference to the earth, and I stated that the hymn
"proves the word was originally used for the earth." I don't see that
such a statement is false, as it is what I believe to be true, although
I realize "proof" is a subjective notion and what is "proof" for me is
not necessarily "proof" for everyone.
Ha Satan should have stated what I said more precisely. IMO, his
allegations and the general attitude of superiority he shows in his
responses seem consistent with NPD.
The use of 'raqia' in the Qumran hymn 1QH 3:31 would be consistent with
the composition of the hymn predating the redefining of 'raqia' as
heaven in Genesis 1, which Daniel's prophecy shows was one of the
corruptions of the cosmology of the Jewish scriptures initiated by
Antiochus IV. If 'raqia' was understood as meaning 'heaven' when the
hymn was composed, its use in the above quoted context seems anomalous.
the meaning of raqiya is a hammered flat surface,
cognate with "spread" as in "to spread out"
Yes, its root is 'raqa' meaning 'spread'.
don't take my word for it ; consult some Jewish persons educated in
their texts.
remember to form the inquiry honestly:
"what is the meaning of raqiya in the TaNaKh?"
A frank and honest approach would be to consider the question whether
there has been a deliberate attempt to alter the meaning of the word
'raqia' during and after the reign of Antiochus IV as indicated by
Daniel's prophecy. The meaning of 'raqia' in the existing scriptures has
been corrupted.
forming a misleading question such as ,
can `raqiya` possibly refer to the earth's surface ...?
that is a misleading and dishonest formation of such an inquiry, as
raqiya can refer to any geometric plane in context.
like a curved dome for example ;)
The word 'raqia' refers to the earth's surface in the Qumran hymn 1QH
3:31 and it is translated that way by Kittel, quoted above. It is
translated 'surface' in the phrase 'and the dry land surface'.
This is related to the use of 'raqa' in Isaiah 42:5 'spread forth the
earth' and 44:24 'that spreadeth forth the earth'.
The evidence that 'raqia' in Genesis 1 at one time referred to the
earth's crust is accumulating, and I have provided a summary of it here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 09:49:01 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Presumably 'Ha Satan', in desperation, intends by the above to smear and
defame the Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations. What
a goon!
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[english reinterpretations deleted]
i would surely like to see evidence that the qumran `essaioi` believed
the word `raqiya` to mean "earth" and not 'a hammered flat surface'
i am still waiting for the evidence that in the first chapter of
`yechezqel` the `raqiya` is not a geometric plane BETWEEN the heads of
the `cherubim` and the SKY.
well ?
One question: why would you rather persist in these erroneous
fantasies when you access the text as presented ?
Consider this analogy: would you be delighted in hearing someone
claim 'Douglas' is etymologically derived from the word 'Duh' as in
MORON ... ?
it isn't true is it ?
so why abuse and distort what the ancient hebrews wrote to suit your
own little ideological fancies ?
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 09:58:20 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Presumably 'Ha Satan', in desperation, intends by the above to smear and
defame the Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations. What
a goon!
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[english reinterpretations deleted]
Answer the question:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Presumably 'Ha Satan', in desperation, intends by the above to smear and
defame the Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations. What
a goon!
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
The foundations of the mountains by burning,
And the roots of flint by the rivers of pitch.
And it devours as far as the great abyss
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press. pp 58-59
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
extension (raqia) of the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
.... into the walls of clay it shall devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land.
The foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze
with fire and the roots of flint rock (shall become)
streams of pitch. And it shall consume into the great
abyss.
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
If not then explain what "misleading opinions" you were referring to.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 10:11:10 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
your erroneous reinterpretation is based on misleading opinions in
english.
Presumably 'Ha Satan', in desperation, intends by the above to smear and
defame the Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations. What
a goon!
Ha SATAN is not 'desperate' -- he is both amused and startled but this
exhibition of utter LUNACY.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
04 Jun 2007 05:28:44 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
i did not ask for a 'translation'
Neither did I.
but you are using translations. why ?
FYI, the language generally used in the newsgroups that I posted to is
English!
<snip>
but you are making claims about paleo aramaic and hebrew.
and i say you can't even read the fragments or sources in the first
place and are simply falsifying information ectecically filched from
this or that english interpretation.
so, again, let us see the romanized or transliterated source here of
the passages relevant to your claim.
here is MY claim -- you wouldn't know a `resh` in the qumran texts
from a `kaph` or a `nun`
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
04 Jun 2007 10:10:53 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
i did not ask for a 'translation'
Neither did I.
but you are using translations. why ?
FYI, the language generally used in the newsgroups that I posted to is
English!
<snip>
but you are making claims about paleo aramaic and hebrew.
and i say you can't even read the fragments or sources in the first
place and are simply falsifying information ectecically filched from
this or that english interpretation.
What does 'ectecically' mean?
As usual you attempt to denigrate, as if there were something wrong with
using scholarly references written in English. What a feeble argument!
so, again, let us see the romanized or transliterated source here of
the passages relevant to your claim.
here is MY claim -- you wouldn't know a `resh` in the qumran texts
from a `kaph` or a `nun`
Completely irrelevant. Your argument is simply a "red herring". I
pointed out the significance of the use of 'raqia' in the Dead Sea
Scroll 1QH 3:31; it shows that when the scroll was written, the word
'raqia' referred to the earth, which confirms the interpretation I
previously presented for Daniel's prophecy in chapter 8. It is quite
amazing! As for the Hebrew scholars, they all missed this completely,
because they had misinterpreted Daniel's prophecy, and relied on a
faulty translation of it.
This discovery of mine is good news for Christians. It is consistent
with my interpretation of Daniel 8, as showing that the flawed cosmology
of the Old Testament and its rigid firmament was introduced by fraud in
the 2nd century BC, initiated by Antiochus IV and the hellenized Jews.
Also Daniel 8:11 indicates the diurnal rotation was assigned to heaven
rather than the earth, with the phrase "by him the continual was raised
up on high". Antiochus evidently stamped out the heliocentric cosmology
of Aristarchus and Seleucus in the ancient world.
Thus the flawed cosmology in the scriptures does not discredit the truth
of the gospel, as the atheists and skeptics assume. It has its origins
in the ideas of Homer and other Greek philosophers and poets. The
skeptics who reject the gospel because of the flawed cosmology of the OT
are victims of the fraud of Antiochus IV, just like those Aristotlean
scholars who opposed Galileo!
The Bible scholars also missed the significance of the fact that the
word 'firmament' occurs 9 time in Genesis 1, but rarely in the rest of
the bible; the chapter appears 'overloaded' with firmament. And if
'firmament' (or 'raqia') had been identified with heaven since the
earliest times, it would be redundant to refer to the 'firmament of
heaven.' (Or raqia shamaim)
The sholars also failed to notice anything suspicious about God
assigning names to day, night, heaven, earth, and sea. There are no
Psalms or any other references to these items and their divinely
assigned names, which suggests the statements may be late additions.
Josephus says 'evening' and 'morning' were also given names. But that
would mean he had a Bible in which these were also listed as getting
divine names, as he is not likely to have he made it up himself.
The scholars also failed to notice that the "fountains of the deep" of
Genesis 7:11 and the 'waters under the earth' in Exodus 20:4 are
referred to as though they had been previously explained to the reader,
but the existing text has no previous explanation for them. These both
would be explained if the 'raqia' of Genesis 1 was originally the
earth's crust, and the identification with heaven was made in the
hellenistic period.
They failed to notice the discrepancy between the story in Exodus 24,
where 70 of the elders of the Israelites ascended the mountain with
Moses and saw God, and John 1:18 & 1 John 4:12. The latter contradict
the tale in Exodus 24 so it must be false. Also the description it
provides of the sapphire pavement or firmament at God's feet makes no
mention of "upper waters" which should exist above the firmament,
according to Genesis 1.
The story of Joshua commanding the sun and moon to stand still is not
mentioned in NT, neither is Joshua among the list of the heroes of faith
in Hebrews 11. The account implies the sun has ears, and seems to
identify the sun with Yehweh or the 'Lord'. It implies the earth is
fixed and immobile, and does not rotate, since Joshua commanded the sun
and moon to stand still rather than the earth. Also it contradicts the
promise of God in Genesis 8:22 that the continuity of day and night
would never cease.
And in Genesis 1, if Moses had meant to indicate that God created a
canopy or dome, other Hebrew words exist that he could possibly have used:
Psalm 18:11 'pavilion' Heb. 'cukkah': thicket, covert, booth
2 Samuel 22:12
Isaiah 4:5 'defence' Heb. 'chuppah': chamber, room, canopy, closet
Jeremiah 43:10, 'pavilion' Heb. 'shaphruwr': canopy, royal pavilion
Why would Moses not use one of these, instead of 'raqia'? I suggest the
truth is that 'raqia' originally meant the earth's crust, and its
meaning was changed in the 2nd century BC by fraud, as revealed by
Daniel's prophecy.
So all these facts, along with many others, confirm the prophecy of
Daniel and the truth and reliability of the gospel, which is indeed good
news!
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.net/~tcc/OP/index.html
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
04 Jun 2007 10:37:03 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
<snip>
but you are making claims about paleo aramaic and hebrew.
and i say you can't even read the fragments or sources in the first
place and are simply falsifying information ectecically filched from
this or that english interpretation.
What does 'ectecically' mean?
ec-lect-i-cally
meaning you run around the texts and will do anything except read them
as presented
here is MY claim -- you wouldn't know a `resh` in the qumran texts
from a `kaph` or a `nun`
Completely irrelevant. Your argument is simply a "red herring".
it's relevant because you can't even read the exhibits you presented
as the basis for your claims.
Why would Moses not use one of these, instead of 'raqia'? I suggest the
truth is that 'raqia' originally meant the earth's crust, and its
meaning was changed in the 2nd century BC by fraud, as revealed by
Daniel's prophecy.
Your suggestion is based on complete ignorance and confusion Douglas
Cox.
Your first error is in your proposal for an ALTERNATIVE hebrew
definition ;
there is nothing wrong with the ORIGINAL definition:
a hammered flat surface.
one of these days study sepher yechezqel chapter one in the source.
end of story basically.
you are beyond ignorance -- you are a NUT.
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