Religions > Bible > Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Doug" |
| Date: |
24 May 2007 09:47:01 PM |
| Object: |
Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
The prophecy of Daniel 8 shows that Antiochus IV initiated a revision of
the cosmology of the Old Testament, that redefined the 'raqia' of
Genesis 1 with heaven, and that he assigned the diurnal rotation to the
heavens. It is what is meant by "the continual was lifted up on high" in
Daniel 8:11; the knowledge of the earth's rotation was stamped out, and
replaced with the idea of the heavens revolving around the earth, which
implied a rigid sphere of heaven or firmament. This interpretation of
Daniel's prophecy has been explained and discussed in some detail in
other threads, or one can find additional information here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
A confirmation that a change in the meaning of 'raqia' occurred during
the hellenistic period has come to light, in one of the scrolls from the
Qumran community near the Dead Sea.
Among the first of the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in the Judean desert
in 1947, there was a work known as the 'Thanksgiving Hymns'. Eight
copies, in various states of preservation, were found in different
caves. They are Psalms written in Hebrew. One of them, Psalm 6 [1QH col
3:31], refers to the earth's crust as 'raqia' in a passage that
describes a fiery conflagration, that destroys the trees, the streams,
the dust of the earth, the foundations of the mountains, and even the
souls of those in the abyss, or the underworld!
The phrase containing the word is: "it devoureth the foundations of clay
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
The word 'raqia' is the same as the word translated 'firmament' in
Genesis 1. In the above context it is also translated "expanse" or
"extension" by some scholars. In Isaiah 42:5, 44:24, and Psalm 136:6 it
refers to the surface of the earth. This use of 'raqia' in hymns of the
Qumran sect clearly shows it was commonly associated with the earth,
rather than heaven, when the hymn was written, probably in the 3rd or
2nd century BC.
It is to be expected that in the isolation of a desert community, hymns
of the faithful would not have been affected by the revision of the
cosmology of the scriptures initiated by Antiochus IV and the Jews who
supported him. The hellenization campaign must have bypassed the Qumran
community. But among the rest of the Jewish population, the original
meaning of 'raqia' was thoroughly purged; originally it referred to the
earth's crust, but its meaning was changed to the rigid sphere of
heaven, by addition of "And God called the firmament Heaven" in Genesis
1:8.
The destruction of the Qumran community by Herod wiped out the
population, and the scrolls remained where they were for 19 centuries,
until their dicovery by Bedouins in 1947. That explains the preservation
of the ancient meaning of 'raqia' in some of the scrolls that were
hidden in the caves.
Some scholars suppose the Qumran community was established by the
'hasidim' during the persecution of Jews in the reign of Antiochus IV.
About that time is when the text of Genesis 1 was changed, and the
'raqia' was identified with the sky by the corruptions. The diurnal
rotation was assigned to the heavens. While the 'raqia' was redefined in
the wider Jewish community, its old meaning remained in the text of the
hymn cited above.
This evidence of the change in the meaning of 'raqia' supports the new
interpretation of Daniel's prophecy. The fraudulent change of the
cosmology of the scriptures was initiated by Antiochus IV, and
implemented by hellenized Jews who admired the Homeric cosmology with
its rigid heaven. The message of the gospel in the Bible is not
discredited by the flawed cosmology of the scriptures; those
cosmological corruptions were foretold, and so they confirm the truth of
prophecy! They show that Christ is in control of human destiny. He
enlightens men, at the appropriate time.
The same prophecy foretold the scientific revolution, 2,300 years from
the date of Daniel's vision. The atheists and skeptics who reject the
scriptures, because of the so-called "rigid dome" cosmology it contains,
and who sneer at the gospel of Christ, are victims of the fraud of
Antiochus IV.
Reference
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
25 May 2007 08:33:04 AM |
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Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
25 May 2007 01:27:41 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
28 May 2007 05:37:37 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
28 May 2007 01:23:08 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
Anyway, here is a more direct link to the page;
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/%7Etcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
28 May 2007 11:15:01 PM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
30 May 2007 11:11:07 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 04:47:38 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
as i stated , you wouldn't know a paleo aramaic resh from a kaph.
you have no idea what the text says.
all your speculations and your little fabrication is derived from
second-hand opinions eclectically patched together.
you never checked any of this in the source.
you people are amazing.
The ignoramus Douglas Cox needs an entire week to admit he cannot read
the relevant passage upon which he has based his FALSIFICATION.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 09:56:21 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
The foundations of the mountains by burning,
And the roots of flint by the rivers of pitch.
And it devours as far as the great abyss
Kittel, Bonnie P. 1981. The Hymns of Qumran. Society of Biblical
Literature 50, Scholars Press. pp 58-59
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the
extension (raqia) of the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
.... into the walls of clay it shall devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land.
The foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze
with fire and the roots of flint rock (shall become)
streams of pitch. And it shall consume into the great
abyss.
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 10:01:32 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
Playing games again ?
a Hebrew scholar translates `raqiya` as "dry land surface" -- an
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
again, cf. yechezqel chapt. 1 verse 22
the raqiya is a plane BETWEEN the heads of the cherubim and the sky
(ANOTHER raqiya)
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 12:43:37 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH 3:31 [Psalm 6]
[31] The foundations of clay it consumes and the
dry land surface (raqia),
Playing games again ?
a Hebrew scholar translates `raqiya` as "dry land surface" -- an
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
Psalm 136:6
To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 24 (New American Standard Bible)
1 The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.
Only after its redefinition as "Heaven" by Antiochus IV and his agents
was 'raqia' identified with heaven, in a revision intended to introduce
the hellenistic idea of a rigid heaven into the scriptures. The
Thanksgiving Hymn 1QH very likely predates the revision of the cosmology
of the OT that Antiochus initiated.
again, cf. yechezqel chapt. 1 verse 22
the raqiya is a plane BETWEEN the heads of the cherubim and the sky
(ANOTHER raqiya)
Any association of the 'raqia' with the sky is due to the corruptions
introduced in the 2nd century BC or later as foretold by Daniel.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
08 Jun 2007 04:19:59 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
yes but obviously the meaning of `raqiya` is NOT "rocky earth's crust"
is it ?
as we see in all the instances of the word it refers to a 'hammered
flat surface'
sepher yechezqel has a salient example which shows that the `raqiya`
over the cherubim is BELOW the `raqiya` of the sky-dome.
you "goofed".
and i still don't see the romanization of the qumran fragment here ;
when are you going to get around to that ?
Ah, you can't read it in the first place ?
TOO BAD.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
08 Jun 2007 06:25:06 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
yes but obviously the meaning of `raqiya` is NOT "rocky earth's crust"
is it ?
It is identified with heaven in Genesis 1:8, which is a corruption
introduced in the 2nd century BC. And the references to 'the firmament
of the heaven' in the first chapter of Genesis are also corruptions, as
Daniel's prophecy shows. We don't see that phrase used anywhere else in
the Bible, which is strange if it is genuine scripture, but just what we
would expect, if it were due to a late corruption, intended to change
the meaning of 'raqia'. Why would it not be mentioned in the Psalms or
some other part of scripture? It is not repeated anywhere. What we do
commonly find is that heaven is contrasted with earth in many
scriptures, such as the following:
Psalm 8:1
O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the EARTH! who hast
set thy glory above the HEAVENS.
Psalm 19:1
The HEAVENS declare the glory of God, the EARTH's crust shows his handiwork.
Note: Psalm 19:1 refers to 'raqia', interpreted here as referring to the
earth, so I have substituted "earth's crust" for the KJV's "firmament".
Heaven and earth are contrasted.
Psalm 57:5
Be thou exalted, O God, above the HEAVENS; let thy glory be above all
the EARTH.
Psalm 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the EARTH, and the HEAVENS are
the work of thy hands.
Psalm 115:16
The HEAVEN, even the HEAVENS, are the LORD's: but the EARTH hath he
given to the children of men.
Psalm 150:1
Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the EARTH's crust of his power.
Note: Psalm 150:1 refers to the 'raqia', a reference to the earth. I
have substituted "earth's crust" for the KJV's "firmament" here, and it
is comparable to Jer 51:15, "He hath made the earth by his power".
Heaven and earth are contrasted in this verse as in the others in the
list.
Proverbs 3:19
The LORD by wisdom hath founded the EARTH; by understanding hath he
established the HEAVENS.
Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the HEAVENS, and stretched them
out; he that spread forth the EARTH, and that which cometh out of it;
he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that
walk therein:
Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the
womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the
HEAVENS alone; that spreadeth abroad the EARTH by myself;
Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The HEAVEN is my throne, and the EARTH is my footstool:
Jeremiah 51:15
He hath made the EARTH by his power, he hath established the world by
his wisdom, and hath stretched out the HEAVEN by his understanding.
Habakkuk 3:3b
His glory covered the HEAVENS, and the EARTH was full of his praise.
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which
stretcheth forth the HEAVENS, and layeth the foundation of the EARTH,
and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the EARTH;
and the HEAVENS are the works of thine hands:
as we see in all the instances of the word it refers to a 'hammered
flat surface'
It first occurs in Genesis 1, so that is where its primary meaning would
be found. But its meaning in that chapter was corrupted in the 2nd
century BC. The fraud has now been exposed by the prophecies of Daniel.
sepher yechezqel has a salient example which shows that the `raqiya`
over the cherubim is BELOW the `raqiya` of the sky-dome.
The idea of a "sky-dome" was introduced in the hellenistic age, as part
of the fraud of Antiochus IV, who initiated the corruption of the
scriptures, to make the cosmology of the Bible comply with the
geocentric cosmology with its rigid sky revolving around the earth.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
08 Jun 2007 07:34:18 AM |
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Doug napisal(a):
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
yes but obviously the meaning of `raqiya` is NOT "rocky earth's crust"
is it ?
It is identified with heaven in Genesis 1:8,
where the word means 'hammered flat surface'
show me an instance in the source text where `raqiya` does NOT mean a
`hammered flat surface`
and i want to see it in the SOURCE LANGUAGE -- i.e. Hebrew or Aramaic.
posted here in the form of a romanization or transliteration.
English is UNACCEPTABLE.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
09 Jun 2007 07:27:35 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug napisal(a):
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
yes but obviously the meaning of `raqiya` is NOT "rocky earth's crust"
is it ?
It is identified with heaven in Genesis 1:8,
where the word means 'hammered flat surface'
show me an instance in the source text where `raqiya` does NOT mean a
`hammered flat surface`
and i want to see it in the SOURCE LANGUAGE -- i.e. Hebrew or Aramaic.
posted here in the form of a romanization or transliteration.
English is UNACCEPTABLE.
so you faked your presentation and made the claim without being able
to read even ONE paleo aramaic or hebrew character -- isn't that
correct ?
as i suspected when this baloney began.
i'll flag this for the future so that other participants in these
discussions will see what a complete moron you are wasting time with
your fraudulent assertions.
FLAG: Doug, Douglas Cox, raqia, raqiya, fake, phoney, liar, ignoramus
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
09 Jun 2007 02:09:02 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug napisal(a):
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
indirect reference to the earth.
so how is this in contradiction to the fact that the definition of
`raqiya` is 'a hammered flat surface' ...?
Its first occurrence is in Genesis 1:6, so I take its original meaning
to be the rocky earth's crust, that was stretched out in the midst of
the waters of the abyss. This is what the Psalmist refers to:
yes but obviously the meaning of `raqiya` is NOT "rocky earth's crust"
is it ?
It is identified with heaven in Genesis 1:8,
where the word means 'hammered flat surface'
show me an instance in the source text where `raqiya` does NOT mean a
`hammered flat surface`
and i want to see it in the SOURCE LANGUAGE -- i.e. Hebrew or Aramaic.
posted here in the form of a romanization or transliteration.
English is UNACCEPTABLE.
Interesting to note your sense of "entitlement" here. What is it that
make you think I should bother?
I suppose it is because you are somehow "special", is that correct?
so you faked your presentation and made the claim without being able
to read even ONE paleo aramaic or hebrew character -- isn't that
correct ?
as i suspected when this baloney began.
i'll flag this for the future so that other participants in these
discussions will see what a complete moron you are wasting time with
your fraudulent assertions.
FLAG: Doug, Douglas Cox, raqia, raqiya, fake, phoney, liar, ignoramus
Desperate attempt at intimidation by 'Ha Satan' noted.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
07 Jun 2007 10:07:46 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
10 Jun 2007 09:57:54 PM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
IMO, item #9 in the list of criteria for NPD is demonstrated by the
unwarrented accusations above: "Arrogant, haughty behaviours or
attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted".
Exhibiting 5 out of 9 criteria is a positive diagnosis.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 02:21:28 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
IMO, item #9 in the list of criteria for NPD is demonstrated by the
unwarrented accusations above: "Arrogant, haughty behaviours or
attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted".
incidentally, Douglas, the above seems to describe yourself.
you are attacking ME instead after your proposals were "frustrated"
such seems congruent with "haughty" and "arrogance" etc
i 'demanded' that you demonstrate your claim that `raqiya` means
"rocky earth's crust" ANYWHERE In the hebrew scriptures -- you
produced nothing but a mantra of sickening ignorance.
again,
i am still waiting to see the relevant line in the qumran fragment
which you claimed 30 posts ago would "PROVE" your theory.
after 30 posts you are now changing the subejct AWAY from `raqiya` --
because you "goofed" ,
plain and simple.
You are dishonest and foolish.
and possibly NUTS.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 09:32:14 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
IMO, item #9 in the list of criteria for NPD is demonstrated by the
unwarrented accusations above: "Arrogant, haughty behaviours or
attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted".
incidentally, Douglas, the above seems to describe yourself.
you are attacking ME instead after your proposals were "frustrated"
such seems congruent with "haughty" and "arrogance" etc
Many of the posts that I have seen from you show a pattern of behaviour
that fits the NPD profile. Victims of your abuse would do well to read
up on it.
i 'demanded' that you demonstrate your claim that `raqiya` means
"rocky earth's crust" ANYWHERE In the hebrew scriptures -- you
produced nothing but a mantra of sickening ignorance.
In Psalm 19:1 the word 'raqia' refers to the earth:
Psalm 19:1
The HEAVENS declare the glory of God, the EARTH's crust shows his handiwork.
Heaven and earth are contrasted here as in each of the following:
Psalm 8:1
O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the EARTH! who hast
set thy glory above the HEAVENS.
Psalm 57:5
Be thou exalted, O God, above the HEAVENS; let thy glory be above all
the EARTH.
Psalm 102:25
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the EARTH, and the HEAVENS are
the work of thy hands.
Psalm 115:16
The HEAVEN, even the HEAVENS, are the LORD's: but the EARTH hath he
given to the children of men.
Psalm 150:1
Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the EARTH's crust of his power.
Note: Psalm 150:1 refers to the 'raqia', a reference to the earth. I
have substituted "earth's crust" for the KJV's "firmament" here, and it
is comparable to Jer 51:15, "He hath made the earth by his power".
Heaven and earth are contrasted in this verse as in the others in the list.
Proverbs 3:19
The LORD by wisdom hath founded the EARTH; by understanding hath he
established the HEAVENS.
Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the HEAVENS, and stretched them
out; he that spread forth the EARTH, and that which cometh out of it;
he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that
walk therein:
Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the
womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the
HEAVENS alone; that spreadeth abroad the EARTH by myself;
Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The HEAVEN is my throne, and the EARTH is my footstool:
Jeremiah 51:15
He hath made the EARTH by his power, he hath established the world by
his wisdom, and hath stretched out the HEAVEN by his understanding.
Habakkuk 3:3b
His glory covered the HEAVENS, and the EARTH was full of his praise.
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which
stretcheth forth the HEAVENS, and layeth the foundation of the EARTH,
and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the EARTH;
and the HEAVENS are the works of thine hands:
again,
i am still waiting to see the relevant line in the qumran fragment
which you claimed 30 posts ago would "PROVE" your theory.
You can find the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 09:57:33 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Many of the posts that I have seen from you show a pattern of behaviour
that fits the NPD profile. Victims of your abuse would do well to read
up on it.
Lying hypocrites ; you people are the ones who turn to the ad-hominem
when you proposals come up empty.
rational persons simply stay on the subject.
You cannot help but change the subject as you have "goofed"
i 'demanded' that you demonstrate your claim that `raqiya` means
"rocky earth's crust" ANYWHERE In the hebrew scriptures -- you
produced nothing but a mantra of sickening ignorance.
In Psalm 19:1 the word 'raqia' refers to the earth:
Psalm 19:1
The HEAVENS declare the glory of God, the EARTH's crust shows his handiwork.
Heaven and earth are contrasted here as in each of the following:
[list deleted]
NONE of those instances indicates that `raqiya` means "rocky earth
crust"
`raqiya` means 'hammered flat surface'
That's all there is to it.
i quoted the first chapter of sepher yechezqel and you still won't
face the fact that the `raqiya` is above the heads of the cherubim and
BELOW the other `raqiya` -- the "sky"
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| User: "Linda Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
19 Jun 2007 06:29:15 PM |
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On Jun 12, 10:57 am, "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
<hasa...@grex.cyberspace.org> wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Many of the posts that I have seen from you show a pattern of behaviour
that fits the NPD profile. Victims of your abuse would do well to read
up on it.
I did. The criteria to be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality
Disorder (NPD) fits you perfectly as anyone can see who reads just a
half-dozen of your posts. If you're only a teeny-bopper, there's
hope, because many of the 'symptoms' are common in budding adolescents
who later outgrow them. If not, don't give it another thought. There
seems to be no 'cure' for it anyway.
Lying hypocrites ; you people are the ones who turn to the ad-hominem
when you proposals come up empty.
rational persons simply stay on the subject.
LOL. You're really out of touch with yourself, aren't you? Or are
you admitting that you often get off-topic and turn to ad-hominem
because you're irrational? Perhaps you know yourself better than I
thought. If not, you couldn't have made a more hypocritical statement.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 02:15:38 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
IMO, item #9 in the list of criteria for NPD is demonstrated by the
unwarrented accusations above: "Arrogant, haughty behaviours or
attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted".
Exhibiting 5 out of 9 criteria is a positive diagnosis.
i wonder what psychiatry might say about your changing the subject to
"Ha SATAN" when the subejct was originally your claim that `qumran
texts PROVE that the word `raqiya` was changed"
continue with the smokescreen if such will console you ;
we already know that you couldn't recognize a paleo aramaic mem from a
bolt of lightning.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 09:01:57 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
IMO, item #9 in the list of criteria for NPD is demonstrated by the
unwarrented accusations above: "Arrogant, haughty behaviours or
attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted".
Exhibiting 5 out of 9 criteria is a positive diagnosis.
i wonder what psychiatry might say about your changing the subject to
"Ha SATAN" when the subejct was originally your claim that `qumran
texts PROVE that the word `raqiya` was changed"
Read the subject line again: "Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning
of 'raqia' was changed"
The use of 'raqia' in 1QH 3:31 proves it was used in reference to the
earth, which is consistent with my claim based on Daniel's prophecy that
the meaning of the word was changed, by revisions to the cosmology of
the scriptures initiated by Antiochus IV.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 02:26:04 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
and what is 'unreasonable' about asking you to produce the relevant
line in the source fragment to show us that you have at least READ
it ?
it was you -- Douglas Cox-- who claimed that `qumran` source "PROVES"
that `raqiya` was "changed"
which is FALSE.
if you feel upset that persons who have studied the texts find your
proposals alien -- the only way to find out who is correct is by
looking at the source text.
but we then discovered you can't read even ONE Line of the source --
isn't that correct ?
continue in your ad-hominem like a good Christian.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 08:49:36 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
and what is 'unreasonable' about asking you to produce the relevant
line in the source fragment to show us that you have at least READ
it ?
I posted the source text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Also I provided three translations from scholarly publications and
references. But you persisted in what seems to me to be unreasonable
demands, that betrayed your attitude of "entitlement". It is a
distinctive feature of NPD sufferers.
it was you -- Douglas Cox-- who claimed that `qumran` source "PROVES"
that `raqiya` was "changed"
which is FALSE.
As the subject line indicates, it is evidence that the meaning of
'raqia' was changed.
Doug
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
12 Jun 2007 09:02:31 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
and what is 'unreasonable' about asking you to produce the relevant
line in the source fragment to show us that you have at least READ
it ?
I posted the source text here:
and, again, you are asked which words support your claim ?
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Also I provided three translations from scholarly publications and
references. But you persisted in what seems to me to be unreasonable
demands,
Nothing you posted indicates that `raqiya` means "rocky earth crust"
whatsoever.
it was you -- Douglas Cox-- who claimed that `qumran` source "PROVES"
that `raqiya` was "changed"
which is FALSE.
As the subject line indicates, it is evidence that the meaning of
'raqia' was changed.
Where ?
Cite ONE INSTANCE in the source text where `raqiya` means anything
other than a `hammered flat surface' .
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
18 Jun 2007 06:41:07 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
i suspected you were simply bluffing anbd had fabricated the entire
claim,
as early as 30 May this was apparent to me.
Now on the 7th of June we have been though a week of disentangling and
unraveling your little lie and bluff about the qumran source.
I doubt the three Hebrew scholars who offered the following translations
were lying, as you imply.
No, i am stating EXPLICITLY -- not "implying" -- that YOU are lying.
or are in need of a psychiatrist.
Demands by 'Ha Satan' in this thread betray his feeling of
"entitlement". Item #5 in the list of criteria for NPD is: "Feels
entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority
treatment".
and what is 'unreasonable' about asking you to produce the relevant
line in the source fragment to show us that you have at least READ
it ?
I posted the source text here:
and, again, you are asked which words support your claim ?
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Also I provided three translations from scholarly publications and
references. But you persisted in what seems to me to be unreasonable
demands,
Nothing you posted indicates that `raqiya` means "rocky earth crust"
whatsoever.
it was you -- Douglas Cox-- who claimed that `qumran` source "PROVES"
that `raqiya` was "changed"
which is FALSE.
As the subject line indicates, it is evidence that the meaning of
'raqia' was changed.
Where ?
Cite ONE INSTANCE in the source text where `raqiya` means anything
other than a `hammered flat surface' .
I agree, a piece of metal that has been spread out into a thin sheet by
hammering or by some other process would indeed be called a 'raqia'.
Also a sheet of ice over a frozen lake or pond is an example of
something that could be called a 'raqia'. It is something 'spread out'
as in Isaiah 42:5, "he that spread forth the earth", and in Isaiah
44:24, "that spreadeth forth the earth by myself". The word "spread" or
"spreadeth" in these verses is "raqa" and it is the root of "raqia".
They are both good evidence the word 'raqia' originally applied to the
earth in Genesis 1.
As I spread butter over my toast this morning I wondered if the layer of
melted butter would also be a 'raqia'? Perhaps, I don't know. But it is
also "spread" into a thin layer. If a metal such as gold or lead was
melted in a pot and poured out on a flat surface, and allowed to cool,
to form a thin plate or layer, that would be a 'raqia'.
The earth is referred to as a 'raqia' in Psalm 19:1 as it was the
earth's crust that was formed "in the midst of the waters" on the 2nd
day. Much of the earth's crust is basalt that was once molten lava, that
has hardened into rock below the surface, rather like molten metal
poured out on a flat surface and allowed to cool.
In the 2nd century BC the hellenized Jews tried to reconcile the
cosmology of the Genesis account of creation with that of the Greeks,
which was geocentric, and featured a rigid heaven. It seems that they
proposed changing the meaning of 'raqia' in the scriptures, and their
proposal was adopted by Antiochus IV.
Aristobulus was a Hellenistic, Jewish, Peripatetic philosopher of
Alexandria in the mid 2nd century BC, a contemporary of Ptolemy
Philometor and of Antiochus IV. He was thoroughly acquainted with Greek
philosophy. He wrote a commentary on the law of Moses, and attempted to
reconcile and identify Greek philosophical conceptions with Jewish
beliefs. According to some accounts (e.g. Eusebius, Historia
Ecclesiastica, vii. 32, 16) he was involved in the production of the
LXX. Aristobulus claimed that Plato and Pythagorus 'imitated' some of
the concepts in the law of Moses, which would explain the presence of
cosmological concepts of the Greeks in the Genesis creation account
(Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica 13.12.1-2). And not only philosophers,
but many of the poets borrowed from Moses, he said (Ibid., 8.10.4).
Aristobulus was called "famous" by Eusebius, and after his time several
people named after him appear in history. He may have been one of the
originators of the revised cosmology of the scriptures which identified
'raqia' with heaven.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
31 May 2007 07:34:06 AM |
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Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
The 'raqia' in 1Q3:31, one of the "Thanksgiving Hymns" scrolls, clearly
refers to the surface of the earth, rather than heaven, which confirms
there was a change in the meaning of 'raqia' as I have previously
written. I have seen two translations of the Psalm. One of them is
provided below. The word 'raqia' occurs in line 31.
<begin quote>
Psalm 6. Column 3:19-36
[19] I thank Thee, O Lord, for Thou hast released my soul from the grave,
and from the abyss of Sheol [20] Thou hast raised me up to an eternal
height,
so that I can wander in the plain without limit,
and so that I know that there is hope for him whom [21] Thou hast formed
out of the dust unto an eternal fellowship.
And the perverted spirit Thou has cleansed from the great transgression,
to stand in the assembly [22] with the host of the saints,
and to come into communion with the congregation of the sons of heaven.
And for man Thou hast cast an eternal lot with the spirits [23] of insight,
to praise Thy name in the choir [of rejoicings],
and to proclaim Thy wonders before all Thy creatures,
[24] But I am a creature of clay; what am I?
Kneaded with water; and for whom am I to be counted, and what is my
strength?
[25] For I stand within the border of ungodliness, [25] and with the
vicious by lot,
and the soul of the poor dwelleth with the great tumults,
and the evils of the tribulation with my steps, [26] when the snares of
the pit open,
and all the nets of ungodliness and the drag of the vicious are spread
out on the water,
when all the arrows of the pit fly out without cease and shatter without
hope,
when the measuring line falleth upon judgment and the lot of wrath [28]
upon the forsaken ones,
and the outpouring of fury upon the dissemblers and the moment of anger
upon all corruption,
and the snares of death surround without escape.
[29] Then the floods of Belial go over all the steep banks,
like a fire that devoureth all their ...(?),
in order to destroy every green [30] and dry tree by their channels,
and it sweepeth with burning flames, until all that drink of them are no
more;
[31] it devoureth the foundations of clay and the extension (raqia) of
the dry land,
and the foundations of the mountains become a burning,
and the roots of flint become streams of pitch.
And it devoureth right down to the great deep,
[32] and the floods of Belial break through the abyss,
and the planners of the deep roar with the noise of them that stir the mud.
And the earth [33] crieth out, because of the destruction which is
executed in the world,
and all its planners scream,
and all who are upon it become mad,
[34] and they are dissolved at the great destruction.
For God thundereth with the roar of His strength,
and His holy abode resoundeth to the truth [35] of His glory,
and the host of heaven raiseth its voice,
and the eternal foundations are dissolved and tremble,
and the war of the heroes [36] of heaven sweepeth across the world,
and it turneth not back until the consummation and that determined for
eternity, and there is nothing like unto it.
</quote>
Reference
Holm-Nielsen, Svend. 1960. Hodayot: Psalms from Qumram. Acta Theologica
Danica. Vol 2. Universitetsforlaget I Aarhus. pp. 64-65
Daniel's prophecy shows that the cosmology of the scriptures was revised
and the 'raqia' was redefined as heaven, and at the same time, the
diurnal rotation was assigned to the sky rather than the earth. The
fraud was implemented by Antiochus IV in the second century BC. This is
the meaning of "by him the continual was raised up on high" in Daniel
8:11, as it should read; the 'continual' refers to the diurnal rotation,
that causes day and night. The use of 'raqia' for the earth at line 31
in the above hymn proves the word was originally used for the earth.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/dw/
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
02 Jun 2007 09:34:55 AM |
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Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
The 'raqia' in 1Q3:31, one of the "Thanksgiving Hymns" scrolls, clearly
refers to the surface of the earth, rather than heaven, which confirms
there was a change in the meaning of 'raqia' as I have previously
written.
what is this crap in English ; i asked you for the SOURCE TEXT.
have you seen it ?
can you read phoenician or paleo hebrew or paleo aramaic ...?
can you please post the relevant text here ?
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: Dead Sea Scroll evidence that the meaning of 'raqia' was changed |
02 Jun 2007 10:43:30 AM |
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|
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] skrev:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:
Doug skrev:
and the surface ('raqia') of the dry land."
quote the romanized source in context.
I have added a graphic showing the Hebrew text here:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Look for the "Thanksgiving Hymn ... " page.
i can't see the page ;
quote the relevant source here.
use transliteration or romanization
In my newsreader I can just click on the link and there it is.
Could the problem be the upper case "OP" in the URL?
The problem is you can't read it ; which is why you will not post any
transliteration or romanization
you still haven't found the source ?
perhaps you simply LIED ...?
oh, Douglas Cox wouldn't do that ?
The 'raqia' in 1Q3:31, one of the "Thanksgiving Hymns" scrolls, clearly
refers to the surface of the earth, rather than heaven, which confirms
there was a change in the meaning of 'raqia' as I have previously
written.
what is this crap in English ; i asked you for the SOURCE TEXT.
have you seen it ?
can you read phoenician or paleo hebrew or paleo aramaic ...?
can you please post the relevant text here ?
Why not check out the web page below where you can see the Hebrew text?
Either of the following links should work. Otherwise, I suggest
contacting some translation service. I believe there are some on the Net
who do it for a fee, but it is not something that I offer.
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/DSS1QH.html
Below is another translation of the entire hymn. Note that the word
'raqia' occurs in line 31 and is translated 'expanse'. It clearly refers
to the earth rather than heaven, and provides evidence that the meaning
of the word 'raqia' was changed as revealed in Daniel's prophecy of the
horn of the goat growing up to the stars and casting stars, the host of
heaven, and the place of God's sanctuary (heaven itself) to the ground
and trampling them (Daniel 8:10-11). The interpretation is that the
'raqia' of Genesis 1:8 was redefined as heaven, whereas it originally
referred to the crust of the earth. In Daniel 8:11, the phrase "by him
the constant was raised up on high" means the diurnal rotation was
assigned to the heavens rather than the earth. The KJV translation, "by
him the daily sacrifice was taken away" is misleading; the prophecy has
nothing to do with a temporary lapse of the ritual sacrifices at the
Jerusalem temple. It refers to something much more significant, a
systematic revision of the cosmology of the scriptures, intended to make
them conform to the geocentric cosmology of the Greeks, which featured a
rigid heaven or firmament. The revision of the cosmology of the OT was
initiated by Antiochus IV and he was aided by hellenized Jews who
admired the cosmology of hellenistic age.
Psalm 6. Column 3:19-36
[19] I praise thee, O Lord, for Thou hast redeemed my soul
from the pit;
And from the Sheol of Abaddon
[20] Thou didst draw me up to an eternal height, so that I may
walk about in uprightness unsearchable and know that
there is hope for him whom
[21] Thou didst fashion from the dust into eternal foundation.
And a perverted spirit Thou didst cleanse from much
transgression to stand in array with
[22] The host of the holy ones and enter into fellowship with
the congregation of the sons of heaven. And Thou hast
apportioned an eternal lot to man amongst the spirits of
[23] Knowledge, to praise Thy name (in) exultation in
community, and to rehearse Thy wondrous deeds in the
presence of all Thy works. But I, a creature of
[24] Clay, what am I? I, kneaded with water, and for what am I
esteemed? And what strength have I? For I have taken my
stand in the domain of wickedness
[25] And together with the tyrants (in their) lot. And the soul
of the poor shall dwell amid great opression. And amid
calamitous destruction are my steps,
[26] When all the snares of the pit were (set) opened, and all
the traps of wickedness were spread and the nets of the
tyrants (were spread) upon the face of the waters,
[27] When all the arrows of the pit darted about with no turning
back and were hurled beyond hope; when the (measuring)
line fell upon judgment; and the lot of anger (fell)
[28] Upon the abandoned ones and the outpouring of wrath upon
the dissemblers and the period of fury--to all Belial. And
the deadly pangs have surrounded (me) with no escape.
[29] And the torrents of Belial have overflowed all the high
banks like a devouring fire in all their courses to destroy
every green
[30] And withered tree alike in their channels. And it shall
wander about with flaming flashes until all those who drink
of them shall be no more; into the walls of clay it shall
devour;
[31] And into the expanse (raqia) of the dry land. The
foundations of the mountains shall become ablaze with fire
and the roots of flint rock (shall become) streams of pitch.
And it shall consume into the great
[32] Abyss. And the torrents of Belial shall burst forth unto
Abaddon and the depths of the abyss shall roar in the tumult
of the eruptions of mire. And the earth
[33] Shall groan because of the destruction wrought in the
universe. And all its deep places shall howl and all that
are upon it will act like mad men.
[34] And they did melt away amid utter destruction, for God
thundereth with the tumult of His strength and His holy
abode shall vibrate with his awe-inspiring
[35] Glory. And the host of heaven shall utter its voice and
the foundations of the world did melt and quake and the
battle of the mighty ones
[36] Of heaven shall be waged abroad in the universe. And it
shall not turn back, until the extermination is wholly
determined and there shall be nothing like it.
Reference
Mansoor, Menahem, 1961. The Thanksgiving Hymns. Studies on the Texts of
the Desert of Judah, Vol 3. J. Van der Ploeg, ed. Wm. B. Eerdmans,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. pp.116-121.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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