| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Glenn" |
| Date: |
15 Jan 2008 03:20:32 PM |
| Object: |
DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
[found on the 'net]
BBC: Last Updated: Tuesday, 15 January 2008, 08:50 GMT
DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES
<image>MRSA
The new strain can lead to blood poisoning
A deadly strain of the superbug MRSA which can lead to a flesh-eating
form of pneumonia has emerged.
Research suggests it may be more prevalent among the gay community - the
gay San Francisco district of Castro appears to have been hardest hit.
So far only two cases of the new form of the USA300 strain of the bug
have been recorded in the UK.
It is not usually contracted in hospitals, but in the community - often
by casual contact.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact"
Professor Mark Enright, Imperial College
The new strain is resistant to treatment by many front-line antibiotics.
It causes large boils on the skin, and in severe cases can lead to fatal
blood poisoning or necrotising pneumonia, which eats away at the lungs.
Researchers say the bug has so far been 13 times more prevalent in gay
men in San Francisco than in other people.
In the Castro district - where more gay people live than anywhere else
in the US - about one in 588 people are carrying the bug.
In the general San Francisco community the figure was around one in 3,800.
Sex link
Researcher Dr Binh Diep, from San Francisco General Hospital Medical
Centre, said: "These multi-drug resistant infections often affect gay
men at body sites in which skin-to-skin contact occurs during sexual
activities.
MRSA EVOLUTION
The first MRSA strain, resistant to the penicillin substitute
methicillin, was discovered in 1961
The USA300 strain was first isolated from a patient in 2001 - it is now
the dominant form of Staphylococcus infection in the US
The latest variant of USA300 - FPR3757- is resistant to six major kinds
of antibiotics
Even the new variant is treatable with some antibiotics, most
importantly vancomycin
However, doctors fear it is close to acquiring resistance to that drug
as well
"But because the bacteria can be spread by more casual contact, we are
also very concerned about a potential spread of this strain into the
general population."
Dr Diep said the best way to avoid transmission was probably to wash
thoroughly with soap and water, especially after sexual activities.
The study, reported in Annals of Internal Medicine, was based on a
review of medical records from outpatient clinics and medical centres in
San Francisco and Boston.
Professor Mark Enright, from Imperial College and St Mary's Hospital,
London, Britain's leading authority on MRSA, said: "It's quite
surprising that the figures are so high.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact.
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
Roger Pebody, of the Terrence Higgins Trust, said: "This is not the new HIV.
"What we are seeing is the emergence of an infection that can be passed
on through close skin to skin contact, including sex.
"It is worrying that one in ten of the American cases are resistant to
antibiotics, but most cases are treatable."
[endit]
Plague is a sign, one of the signs we are to watch for.
Are you watching? Mark 13:37
Did you notice the description of the high risk group?
Quote:
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
End quote.
It seems significant that the high risk group (with the exception of
wrestlers) seems to be those who deny or rebel against God. That is,
"gay men, drug users... and [those] having lots of sexual partners..."
Why should that be meaningful?
Glenn
His witness
--
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "~A John 3:16 Whosoever~" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
15 Jan 2008 04:39:39 PM |
|
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On Jan 15, 1:20=A0pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
[found on the 'net]
BBC: Last Updated: Tuesday, 15 January 2008, 08:50 GMT
DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES
<image>MRSA
The new strain can lead to blood poisoning
A deadly strain of the superbug MRSA which can lead to a flesh-eating
form of pneumonia has emerged.
Research suggests it may be more prevalent among the gay community - the
gay San Francisco district of Castro appears to have been hardest hit.
So far only two cases of the new form of the USA300 strain of the bug
have been recorded in the UK.
It is not usually contracted in hospitals, but in the community - often
by casual contact.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact"
Professor Mark Enright, Imperial College
The new strain is resistant to treatment by many front-line antibiotics.
It causes large boils on the skin, and in severe cases can lead to fatal
blood poisoning or necrotising pneumonia, which eats away at the lungs.
Researchers say the bug has so far been 13 times more prevalent in gay
men in San Francisco than in other people.
In the Castro district - where more gay people live than anywhere else
in the US - about one in 588 people are carrying the bug.
In the general San Francisco community the figure was around one in 3,800.=
Sex link
Researcher Dr Binh Diep, from San Francisco General Hospital Medical
Centre, said: "These multi-drug resistant infections often affect gay
men at body sites in which skin-to-skin contact occurs during sexual
activities.
MRSA EVOLUTION
The first MRSA strain, resistant to the penicillin substitute
methicillin, was discovered in 1961
The USA300 strain was first isolated from a patient in 2001 - it is now
the dominant form of Staphylococcus infection in the US
The latest variant of USA300 - FPR3757- is resistant to six major kinds
of antibiotics
Even the new variant is treatable with some antibiotics, most
importantly vancomycin
However, doctors fear it is close to acquiring resistance to that drug
as well
"But because the bacteria can be spread by more casual contact, we are
also very concerned about a potential spread of this strain into the
general population."
Dr Diep said the best way to avoid transmission was probably to wash
thoroughly with soap and water, especially after sexual activities.
The study, reported in Annals of Internal Medicine, was based on a
review of medical records from outpatient clinics and medical centres in
San Francisco and Boston.
Professor Mark Enright, from Imperial College and St Mary's Hospital,
London, Britain's leading authority on MRSA, said: "It's quite
surprising that the figures are so high.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact.
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
Roger Pebody, of the Terrence Higgins Trust, said: "This is not the new HI=
V.
"What we are seeing is the emergence of an infection that can be passed
on through close skin to skin contact, including sex.
"It is worrying that one in ten of the American cases are resistant to
antibiotics, but most cases are treatable."
[endit]
Plague is a sign, one of the signs we are to watch for.
Are you watching? Mark 13:37
Did you notice the description of the high risk group?
Quote:
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
End quote.
It seems significant that the high risk group (with the exception of
wrestlers) seems to be those who deny or rebel against God. That is,
"gay men, drug users... and [those] having lots of sexual partners..."
You forgot those who play contact sports - they are most certainly
rebelling aginst God, Glenn. LOL!
But seriously, give me a break - you look for things to point to
Apocalypse now (better you should just rent the movie). There have
been plagues of all kinds for decades, centuries:
Anthrax
Bacillary Dysentery
Botulism
Brucellosis
Cholera
Giardiasis
Hepatitis
Paratyphoid
Typhoid Fever
Diphtheria
Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome
Meningicoccal meningitis
Pneumonococcal pneumonia
Tuberculosis
Whooping cough
German measles
Influenza
Measles
HIV-Disease HIV (V)
Chlamydia
Gonorrhea
Syphilis
Trichomoniasis
Typhus
Lyme disease
Malaria
Plague
Rocky Mountain spotted Fever
Psittacosis
Rabies
Tularemia
Doomsdayers like you have been crying Apocalypse for centuries,
Glenn. Not that I don't believe we are in the end times, but honestly
- is your life really so miserable that you must be so maudlin and
morose all the time? Do you scour the news for things that fit your
idea that the end is near just so you can say "Ah-ha! See, I told you
so!!!" ?
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
15 Jan 2008 05:27:09 PM |
|
|
<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~> wrote:
On Jan 15, 1:20 pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
[found on the 'net]
BBC: Last Updated: Tuesday, 15 January 2008, 08:50 GMT
DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES
<image>MRSA
The new strain can lead to blood poisoning
A deadly strain of the superbug MRSA which can lead to a flesh-eating
form of pneumonia has emerged.
Research suggests it may be more prevalent among the gay community - the
gay San Francisco district of Castro appears to have been hardest hit.
So far only two cases of the new form of the USA300 strain of the bug
have been recorded in the UK.
It is not usually contracted in hospitals, but in the community - often
by casual contact.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact"
Professor Mark Enright, Imperial College
The new strain is resistant to treatment by many front-line antibiotics.
It causes large boils on the skin, and in severe cases can lead to fatal
blood poisoning or necrotising pneumonia, which eats away at the lungs.
Researchers say the bug has so far been 13 times more prevalent in gay
men in San Francisco than in other people.
In the Castro district - where more gay people live than anywhere else
in the US - about one in 588 people are carrying the bug.
In the general San Francisco community the figure was around one in 3,800.
Sex link
Researcher Dr Binh Diep, from San Francisco General Hospital Medical
Centre, said: "These multi-drug resistant infections often affect gay
men at body sites in which skin-to-skin contact occurs during sexual
activities.
MRSA EVOLUTION
The first MRSA strain, resistant to the penicillin substitute
methicillin, was discovered in 1961
The USA300 strain was first isolated from a patient in 2001 - it is now
the dominant form of Staphylococcus infection in the US
The latest variant of USA300 - FPR3757- is resistant to six major kinds
of antibiotics
Even the new variant is treatable with some antibiotics, most
importantly vancomycin
However, doctors fear it is close to acquiring resistance to that drug
as well
"But because the bacteria can be spread by more casual contact, we are
also very concerned about a potential spread of this strain into the
general population."
Dr Diep said the best way to avoid transmission was probably to wash
thoroughly with soap and water, especially after sexual activities.
The study, reported in Annals of Internal Medicine, was based on a
review of medical records from outpatient clinics and medical centres in
San Francisco and Boston.
Professor Mark Enright, from Imperial College and St Mary's Hospital,
London, Britain's leading authority on MRSA, said: "It's quite
surprising that the figures are so high.
"We do know that the USA300 strain is extremely good at spreading
between people through skin-to-skin contact.
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
Roger Pebody, of the Terrence Higgins Trust, said: "This is not the new HIV.
"What we are seeing is the emergence of an infection that can be passed
on through close skin to skin contact, including sex.
"It is worrying that one in ten of the American cases are resistant to
antibiotics, but most cases are treatable."
[endit]
Plague is a sign, one of the signs we are to watch for.
Are you watching? Mark 13:37
Did you notice the description of the high risk group?
Quote:
"The main reservoir for this infection is gay men, drug users, and those
involved in contact sports, like wrestling. Having lots of sexual
partners and making skin contact with a large number of different people
helps the infection to spread.
"In the US it is already moving into the wider community."
End quote.
It seems significant that the high risk group (with the exception of
wrestlers) seems to be those who deny or rebel against God. That is,
"gay men, drug users... and [those] having lots of sexual partners..."
You forgot those who play contact sports - they are most certainly
rebelling aginst God, Glenn. LOL!
But seriously, give me a break - you look for things to point to
Apocalypse now (better you should just rent the movie). There have
been plagues of all kinds for decades, centuries:
Anthrax
Bacillary Dysentery
Botulism
Brucellosis
Cholera
Giardiasis
Hepatitis
Paratyphoid
Typhoid Fever
Diphtheria
Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome
Meningicoccal meningitis
Pneumonococcal pneumonia
Tuberculosis
Whooping cough
German measles
Influenza
Measles
HIV-Disease HIV (V)
Chlamydia
Gonorrhea
Syphilis
Trichomoniasis
Typhus
Lyme disease
Malaria
Plague
Rocky Mountain spotted Fever
Psittacosis
Rabies
Tularemia
Doomsdayers like you have been crying Apocalypse for centuries,
Glenn. Not that I don't believe we are in the end times, but honestly
- is your life really so miserable that you must be so maudlin and
morose all the time? Do you scour the news for things that fit your
idea that the end is near just so you can say "Ah-ha! See, I told you
so!!!" ?
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Now, take a few moments, and compare the Facts or Information on which
you base your belief to the Prophetic Descriptions of End Time Events.
First, I do not ask you to make up your mind based on a single sign, OR
suggest that any one sign is conclusive evidence which proves any "end
time" doctrine.
Jesus said, "All these are the beginning..." Mat 24:8
What I do ask is...
Of which "All These" is He speaking? Compare Mat 24:6-8, 9-13, 15-21,
29-31 to Rev 6:1-6, Rev 20:7-8.
Consider the major human events of the last hundred years...
Considering the following list to be a list of "Key Words" or Search
terms, then,
First, using your concordance or a Bible Search program to look up
Prophecies which describe these events, and,
Second, using google or an internet search tool, look for news and
historical accounts of these events...
1.) War
Napoleon's attempt to conquer Europe may have been the first
consequence of Satan's release from the pit. Rev 20:7-8
Since 1790
2.) Delusion: Science, (Secular warfare against God)
Evolution, Geologic Gradualism, Big Bang, 14 BYO Expanding universe
Since 1800
3.) Delusion: Religious (Religious warfare)
Mormonism, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's
Witnesses, et al.
Since 1815
4.) Delusion: Political (Ideological warfare)
Capitalism, Communism divide the world
Modern Babylon Rules the World
Since 1880
5.) Delusion: Political, Ideological, Military
One World Government,
The European Union becomes Modern Rome. Rev 13.
Since 1880
6.) Delusion: Ideological
The World is millions of years old, and will continue for millions
of years, and,
Mankind can Save himself and this world
Since 1880
7.) Delusion: Religious
Lie: Present World Events are not fulfillment of End Time Prophecy
Preterism: All Prophecy of the Return of the Lord was fulfilled in AD70
A lie of Satan, this is pure delusion.
Rapture Doctrine: Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib,
End time Prophecy will not be fulfilled until AFTER the Lord
returns for the Church.
A lie of Satan. There will be no "rapture event" which leaves
living people on this world.
Millennial Reign Doctrine: The Physical Kingdom of Christ
Present Human Events are not related to End Time Prophecy.
Christ must return to establish His Kingdom, then the fulfillment
of end time prophecy will begin.
A lie of Satan. There will be no physical kingdom on this earth.
8.) Delusion: Science Fiction
Lie: Mankind can escape to Space, spread his seed across a thousand
stars and thus proclaim himself immortal
9.) Conquest of Gog and Magog by Godless Communism
(Political, Ideological and Religious warfare)
Communism makes war against God and His People for a generation
Since 1900
10.) Famine
Caused by war
Caused by Weather
Caused by pestilence
Since 1900
11.) Earthquake, Tsunami, Volcano
Since 1900
12.) WW1
All Nations which once were Rome at war at the same time, in the
same place
Since 1915
13.) Weapons of Mass Destruction (Gas)
Since 1915
14.) Plague
Influenza, Polio, AIDS
Spanish influenza Pandemic responsible for the deaths of over 50
million people.
Since 1918,
15.) WW2
All Nations which once were Rome at war at the same time, in the
same place, for the second time in the same generation!
Since 1938
16.) WMD, Nuclear, Biological Weapons
Since 1945
17.) Delusion: Religious
World Council of Churches
The Religious Establishment which will demand you worship Satan
18.) Destruction of the Earth's Ecology
"I will destroy those who have destroyed the earth." Rev 11:18
Contamination of the Atmosphere, Acid rain and death of forests,
pollution of rivers, lakes and seas
A consequence of Industrialization, with the consumption of fossil fuels
19.) Depletion of Whales, Salmon and Cod
Die-off of Coral, death of sea life
20.) Chemical pollution, Times Beach, Love Canal, Bhopal
Nuclear Contamination, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl
21.) Global Warming, Greenhouse Effect
Since 1950
22.) Return of God's People (Mat 1:21) to control of Jerusalem
End of the Time of the Gentiles. Luke 21:24
Since 1967
Glenn
His witness
--
www.thelittlebookopened.org [Key words:] "The Little Book";
Glenn McClary, servitum, gaedhealic, oldwetdog
.
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| User: "~A John 3:16 Whosoever~" |
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| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
15 Jan 2008 05:40:48 PM |
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On Jan 15, 3:27=A0pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Uh...Jesus told us we were? That's good enough for me.
<snipped remaining because to argue with Glenn is akin to banging
one's head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result
other than a huge headache>
.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
15 Jan 2008 09:24:54 PM |
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On Jan 16, 3:40 am, "<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>"
<kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 3:27 pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Uh...Jesus told us we were? That's good enough for me.
<snipped remaining because to argue with Glenn is akin to banging
one's head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result
other than a huge headache>
Problem is, according to John, they were living in the "end times"
nearly two millenium ago.
I don't buy into a 2 millenia end times.
Christianity, when it was starting up, was an apocryphal religion. It
flourished among a people who were occupied, downtrodden and who cried
out for someone to avenge their wrongs.
The promise of a "Judgment Day" when God's chosen people (the Jews,
not the Christians) and release from their bondage (and not in a fun
way!) as well as the punishment of their enemies was one of the major
draws for acolytes to the new flavor on the theological block.
The text of the books that became the bible, as they were passed
around, offered not just hints but blatant statements by Jesus that
this Judgment would occur during the lifetimes of his disciples and
John I says that there are already "many antichrists" around.
Given that, I can't see that we are any more in the "end times" now
than we were two millenia ago when the books were still young and
making the same claim.
.
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| User: "Mikal119" |
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| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
15 Jan 2008 10:22:37 PM |
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On Jan 15, 9:24 pm, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:40 am, "<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>"
<kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 3:27 pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Uh...Jesus told us we were? That's good enough for me.
<snipped remaining because to argue with Glenn is akin to banging
one's head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result
other than a huge headache>
Problem is, according to John, they were living in the "end times"
nearly two millenium ago.
I don't buy into a 2 millenia end times.
Christianity, when it was starting up, was an apocryphal religion. It
flourished among a people who were occupied, downtrodden and who cried
out for someone to avenge their wrongs.
The promise of a "Judgment Day" when God's chosen people (the Jews,
not the Christians) and release from their bondage (and not in a fun
way!) as well as the punishment of their enemies was one of the major
draws for acolytes to the new flavor on the theological block.
The text of the books that became the bible, as they were passed
around, offered not just hints but blatant statements by Jesus that
this Judgment would occur during the lifetimes of his disciples and
John I says that there are already "many antichrists" around.
That judgement might have occurred exactly then if you want to take
the position that his crucifixion convicted the world and set in
motion the rest of Gods plans for humanity.
Given that, I can't see that we are any more in the "end times" now
than we were two millenia ago when the books were still young and
making the same claim.
People interpret signs differerently, and even their meaning.To be
sure, it is always the end-times for somebody.
.
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| User: "Linda Lee" |
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| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 02:49:11 AM |
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On Jan 15, 11:22 pm, Mikal119 <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 9:24 pm, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:40 am, "<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>"
<kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 3:27 pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Uh...Jesus told us we were? That's good enough for me.
<snipped remaining because to argue with Glenn is akin to banging
one's head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result
other than a huge headache>
Problem is, according to John, they were living in the "end times"
nearly two millenium ago.
I don't buy into a 2 millenia end times.
Christianity, when it was starting up, was an apocryphal religion. It
flourished among a people who were occupied, downtrodden and who cried
out for someone to avenge their wrongs.
The promise of a "Judgment Day" when God's chosen people (the Jews,
not the Christians) and release from their bondage (and not in a fun
way!) as well as the punishment of their enemies was one of the major
draws for acolytes to the new flavor on the theological block.
The text of the books that became the bible, as they were passed
around, offered not just hints but blatant statements by Jesus that
this Judgment would occur during the lifetimes of his disciples and
John I says that there are already "many antichrists" around.
That judgement might have occurred exactly then if you want to take
the position that his crucifixion convicted the world and set in
motion the rest of Gods plans for humanity.
That is what he said:
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of
this world be cast out.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that
they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made
blind.
Given that, I can't see that we are any more in the "end times" now
than we were two millenia ago when the books were still young and
making the same claim.
People interpret signs differerently, and even their meaning.To be
sure, it is always the end-times for somebody.
And if the earth has existed for billions of years and men for eons,
2,000 years is a short span of time.
Also, consider: 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. --- last days.
.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 04:11:03 AM |
|
|
On Jan 16, 12:49 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 11:22 pm, Mikal119 <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 9:24 pm, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:40 am, "<~A John 3:16 Whosoever~>"
<kaseybec...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 3:27 pm, Glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
To quote you... "Not that I don't believe we are in the end times..."
O.K., So you *DO* believe we are living in the end time?
Fine, tell me, on what information or signs do you base YOUR belief?
Uh...Jesus told us we were? That's good enough for me.
<snipped remaining because to argue with Glenn is akin to banging
one's head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result
other than a huge headache>
Problem is, according to John, they were living in the "end times"
nearly two millenium ago.
I don't buy into a 2 millenia end times.
Christianity, when it was starting up, was an apocryphal religion. It
flourished among a people who were occupied, downtrodden and who cried
out for someone to avenge their wrongs.
The promise of a "Judgment Day" when God's chosen people (the Jews,
not the Christians) and release from their bondage (and not in a fun
way!) as well as the punishment of their enemies was one of the major
draws for acolytes to the new flavor on the theological block.
The text of the books that became the bible, as they were passed
around, offered not just hints but blatant statements by Jesus that
this Judgment would occur during the lifetimes of his disciples and
John I says that there are already "many antichrists" around.
That judgement might have occurred exactly then if you want to take
the position that his crucifixion convicted the world and set in
motion the rest of Gods plans for humanity.
That is what he said:
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of
this world be cast out.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that
they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made
blind.
Given that, I can't see that we are any more in the "end times" now
than we were two millenia ago when the books were still young and
making the same claim.
People interpret signs differerently, and even their meaning.To be
sure, it is always the end-times for somebody.
And if the earth has existed for billions of years and men for eons,
2,000 years is a short span of time.
JERRY
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Linda
Also, consider: 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one
thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day. --- last days.
JERRY
The problems with 2 Peter are numerous.
Here is a bit on when it was written (from
http://encarta.msn.com)
"The Second Epistle is addressed to all Christians.
Ecclesiastical tradition has attributed both Epistles to Saint Peter,
but modern scholars have questioned Peter's authorship of the First
Epistle, and most have doubted his authorship of the Second Epistle."
and further
"The Second Epistle of Peter is generally believed to have been
written by an unknown person during the 2nd century. The Epistle has
been accepted as canonical since the 4th century. It was written to
strengthen the Christian belief in the second coming of Christ, a
belief that had been attacked and ridiculed as ill-founded"
So it would appear that 2 Peter was written to give Christians just
the kind of crutch they need to fend off criticism for the fact that
the Second Coming, something immediate in the text, still hadn't
happened.
Eusebius THE CHURCH HISTORY OF EUSEBIUS.
Book III
Chapter III. The Epistles of the Apostles.
1 One epistle of Peter, that called the first, is acknowledged as
genuine.16
And this the ancient elders17 used freely in their own writings as an
undisputed work.18 But we have learned that his extant second Epistle
does not belong to the canon;19 yet, as it has appeared profitable to
many, it has been used with the other Scriptures.20
JERRY
In other words, they knew when they put it in the bible that it wasn't
genunine but since it said what many wanted to hear, they included it
anyway.
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 11:22:45 AM |
|
|
"rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and "COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 11:51:21 AM |
|
|
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and "COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 01:17:52 PM |
|
|
"rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and "COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
16 Jan 2008 08:25:53 PM |
|
|
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and "COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
17 Jan 2008 12:44:44 AM |
|
|
"rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7325adf-a4ba-48b2-9bc3-c80bf9abd1e5@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would
come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment
also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that
are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the
were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and
"COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no
one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that
Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future
tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is
come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of
them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would
come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was
Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
Yes I do--the answer "for the specifics" is that you don't see the shifting
dynamics in Jesus' various prophetic statements as they apply to the "now"
and the "coming" which was continually in His manner of speech. This was, in
fact, the manner of ALL the prophets' speech. In fact, without the dualism
(and, actually, trinuism) of prophecy one wouldn't even be able to make the
case that Jesus IS the Messiah--EVERY prophecy of the Old Testament already
had an Old Testament context in which the prophecy was immediately (yet
deficiently) fulfilled. Same with Jesus' prophecies going forward.
Ike
.
|
|
|
| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
17 Jan 2008 02:49:24 AM |
|
|
On Jan 17, 10:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7325adf-a4ba-48b2-9bc3-c80bf9abd1e5@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would
come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment
also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that
are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the
were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and
"COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no
one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that
Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future
tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is
come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of
them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would
come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was
Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
Yes I do--the answer "for the specifics" is that you don't see the shifting
dynamics in Jesus' various prophetic statements as they apply to the "now"
and the "coming" which was continually in His manner of speech. This was, in
fact, the manner of ALL the prophets' speech. In fact, without the dualism
(and, actually, trinuism) of prophecy one wouldn't even be able to make the
case that Jesus IS the Messiah--EVERY prophecy of the Old Testament already
had an Old Testament context in which the prophecy was immediately (yet
deficiently) fulfilled. Same with Jesus' prophecies going forward.
Ike
JERRY
This should be fun. And, how do *you* interpret the verses I quote to
mean something other than "this generation" and "some standing here
who shall not taste of death?"
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
17 Jan 2008 03:19:16 AM |
|
|
"rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:205bd38d-cf04-43e8-bc43-dbed0a8f0ba6@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 17, 10:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7325adf-a4ba-48b2-9bc3-c80bf9abd1e5@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would
come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words
they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear
shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son
to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment
also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all
that
are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that
have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the
were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and
"COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no
one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH
SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL
ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have
Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the
debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that
Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future
tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is
come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of
them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would
come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and
intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was
Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will
come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
Yes I do--the answer "for the specifics" is that you don't see the
shifting
dynamics in Jesus' various prophetic statements as they apply to the
"now"
and the "coming" which was continually in His manner of speech. This was,
in
fact, the manner of ALL the prophets' speech. In fact, without the
dualism
(and, actually, trinuism) of prophecy one wouldn't even be able to make
the
case that Jesus IS the Messiah--EVERY prophecy of the Old Testament
already
had an Old Testament context in which the prophecy was immediately (yet
deficiently) fulfilled. Same with Jesus' prophecies going forward.
Ike
JERRY
This should be fun. And, how do *you* interpret the verses I quote to
mean something other than "this generation" and "some standing here
who shall not taste of death?"
I don't have to. You're erroneously slamming together two different
unrelated prophecies, Matthew 16, and Matthew 24.
The prophecy in Matthew 16 is about the coming of the Kingdom in power, i.e.
Pentecost.
That chapter is followed up in Matthew 17 which contains Jesus dualistic
reference to John the Baptist, i.e. "Elias" will come/"Elias" has come. (And
yet Elias already existed, creating a typical prophetic "was, is, and is to
come" statement, as declared by the Teacher: "That which has been is now,
and that which is to be has already become, and God requires that which is
past.")
Hence, the prophecy in 16 is not related to the prophecy Jesus gave the
disciples on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24.
16 is about the "now."
24 is about the "is coming."
17 is the bridge between the two.
You should also note that Matthew's Gospel is a compilation of Mark and
Luke's Gospels, and, as such, Matthew accidentally created many duplets and
couplets where he confused the placing of information in the chronology,
which doesn't help matters any.
Also note that Mark and Matthew were not aware that Jesus had delivered His
prophetic narrative twice, once to the Sanhedrin (in an immediate context)
and once to His Disciples (in a far-reaching context). Luke knew of this
(via Paul), but wasn't sure where to put the Sanhedrin version of the
narrative into the chronology, and he put it too early [17]: It actually
took place right before the Disciples met Jesus outside the temple, which is
why Jesus was in such a foul mood when He came out--Jesus knew the Sanhedrin
would never acknowledge or record His prophecy, so He had to take His
disciples up to the Mount of Olives to make sure SOMEBODY knew the whole
story. However, as when Jehoiakim cut up Jeremiah's prophecy with a
penknife, Jesus added more and worse to the prophecy as it applies to the
end of the age (rather than in the immediate context), as is also true of
Jeremiah.
Ike
.
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| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
18 Jan 2008 11:13:03 PM |
|
|
On Jan 17, 1:19 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:205bd38d-cf04-43e8-bc43-dbed0a8f0ba6@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 17, 10:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7325adf-a4ba-48b2-9bc3-c80bf9abd1e5@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end would
come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words
they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear
shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son
to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment
also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all
that
are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that
have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if the
were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and
"COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise, no
one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH
SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL
ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have
Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the
debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that
Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall [future
tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is
come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of
them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said would
come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and
intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was
Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah will
come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
Yes I do--the answer "for the specifics" is that you don't see the
shifting
dynamics in Jesus' various prophetic statements as they apply to the
"now"
and the "coming" which was continually in His manner of speech. This was,
in
fact, the manner of ALL the prophets' speech. In fact, without the
dualism
(and, actually, trinuism) of prophecy one wouldn't even be able to make
the
case that Jesus IS the Messiah--EVERY prophecy of the Old Testament
already
had an Old Testament context in which the prophecy was immediately (yet
deficiently) fulfilled. Same with Jesus' prophecies going forward.
Ike
JERRY
This should be fun. And, how do *you* interpret the verses I quote to
mean something other than "this generation" and "some standing here
who shall not taste of death?"
I don't have to. You're erroneously slamming together two different
unrelated prophecies, Matthew 16, and Matthew 24.
The prophecy in Matthew 16 is about the coming of the Kingdom in power, i.e.
Pentecost.
JERRY
Nope. Look at it again.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,
and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his
soul?
16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
his angels; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
JERRY
So, Ike, Fifty says after the Resurrection, Jesus returned In the
Glory of his FATHER, angels all around and they "rewarded EVERY MAN
ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS?" Doesn't sound like Pentecost to me.
That chapter is followed up in Matthew 17 which contains Jesus dualistic
reference to John the Baptist, i.e. "Elias" will come/"Elias" has come. (And
yet Elias already existed, creating a typical prophetic "was, is, and is to
come" statement, as declared by the Teacher: "That which has been is now,
and that which is to be has already become, and God requires that which is
past.")
JERRY
That conversation took place six days later (in Matthew) and eight
days later in Luke (Luke 9:27-28). Further, the information in
chapter 17 is about the Transfiguration and we have gone on from the
discussion of what is to come.
Hence, the prophecy in 16 is not related to the prophecy Jesus gave the
disciples on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24.
16 is about the "now."
JERRY
And they rewarded EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS fifty days after
the Resurrection? I don't think so.
24 is about the "is coming."
JERRY
Check out the wording:
16:27 For the Son of man shall come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH
HIS ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE
SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.
Looks to me like they are describing the same event.
and then you still have to deal with this, Jesus speaking to his
disciples and telling them
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
Yes, it's the future, but the NEAR future.
17 is the bridge between the two.
JERRY
Not really.
You should also note that Matthew's Gospel is a compilation of Mark and
Luke's Gospels, and, as such, Matthew accidentally created many duplets and
couplets where he confused the placing of information in the chronology,
which doesn't help matters any.
JERRY
Gasp! Are you saying the bible isn't an eyewitness account and may
not be true?!
Also note that Mark and Matthew were not aware that Jesus had delivered His
prophetic narrative twice, once to the Sanhedrin (in an immediate context)
and once to His Disciples (in a far-reaching context). Luke knew of this
(via Paul), but wasn't sure where to put the Sanhedrin version of the
narrative into the chronology, and he put it too early [17]: It actually
took place right before the Disciples met Jesus outside the temple, which is
why Jesus was in such a foul mood when He came out--Jesus knew the Sanhedrin
would never acknowledge or record His prophecy, so He had to take His
disciples up to the Mount of Olives to make sure SOMEBODY knew the whole
story. However, as when Jehoiakim cut up Jeremiah's prophecy with a
penknife, Jesus added more and worse to the prophecy as it applies to the
end of the age (rather than in the immediate context), as is also true of
Jeremiah.
Ike
JERRY
You still have to deal with the text, Ike.
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: DEADLY NEW FORM OF MRSA EMERGES |
19 Jan 2008 03:23:12 AM |
|
|
"rogue" <rogue719@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0b544b24-32d1-4ac6-8f37-3e081526250d@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 17, 1:19 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:205bd38d-cf04-43e8-bc43-dbed0a8f0ba6@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 17, 10:44 am, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7325adf-a4ba-48b2-9bc3-c80bf9abd1e5@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 11:17 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40b15422-1502-4206-bbaf-d52249cf89fb@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 16, 9:22 pm, "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
<xeickleberrybo...@verizon.net> wrote:
"rogue" <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbcdbe8c-8f78-44a1-85dc-a58915672832@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
But Jesus was talking to MEN and telling THEM that the end
would
come
during their lifetimes, during THIS generation. He used words
they
understood to tell them that this event was imminent.
Was He now?
I think you better go back and reconsider the way Jesus spoke.
Jn 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come
into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now
is,
when
the
dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear
shall
live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the
Son
to
have
life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute
judgment
also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all
that
are
in
the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that
have
done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done
evil,
unto
the
resurrection of damnation.
Verily, verily x 2.
And if these things were "coming," then were not "now," and if
the
were
"now" they were not "coming," unless they were both "NOW" and
"COMING,"
which is precisely how the prophets before Him spoke (otherwise,
no
one
would even be able to make the case that Jesus IS the Messiah).
JERRY
When does tomorrow become today?
Jesus was specific in giving the time frame:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man
according
to his works.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH
SHALL
NOT TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
And this:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know
that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL
ALL
THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
These words were spoken to Jesus' disciples, telling THEM what to
expect.
This is not speaking for the ages. In chapter 16, Jesus is
warning
his disciples that they shouldn't pursue worldly things but
should
concentrate on following Jesus, despite the hardships.
In chapter 24, Jesus was asked by his disciples what the signs
were
for the Second Coming and the end of all things.
He was specifically telling them that the end was going to come
soon
and they needed to be prepared for it.
As for the book of John, if you really want to go there we can
talk
about some of the contradictions between the book of John and the
synoptic gospels. ;-) (How long was Jesus' ministry? John says
three years and the synoptics say one year. The synoptics have
Jesus
saying nothing at his trial before Pilate, such that Pilate
"marvelled," while John has Jesus making long speeches to Pilate
telling him who he is. And we haven't even looked yet at the
debacle
that are the Resurrection Morning accounts.)
Too bad John's Gospel isn't the only one in which Jesus reveals the
dualistic nature of His sayings....
Mt 17:10-13
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes
that
Elias
must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall
[future
tense]
first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias
is
come
[present tense] already, and they knew him not, but have done unto
him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer
of
them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John
the
Baptist.
John the Baptist was a figure for Elijah, whom the prophets said
would
come
in the restoration of all things, but J the B was, for all and
intents,
Elijah, as figure, in his own right.
Thus, Jesus says that one must "perceive" that John the Baptist was
Elijah
figuratively, but that in no way precludes the fact that Elijah
will
come
again literally.
Thus, "now" is not "is coming," and vice versa.
Ike
You still haven't got an answer for the specifics. THIS generation,
some standing here who shall not die.
Yes I do--the answer "for the specifics" is that you don't see the
shifting
dynamics in Jesus' various prophetic statements as they apply to the
"now"
and the "coming" which was continually in His manner of speech. This
was,
in
fact, the manner of ALL the prophets' speech. In fact, without the
dualism
(and, actually, trinuism) of prophecy one wouldn't even be able to
make
the
case that Jesus IS the Messiah--EVERY prophecy of the Old Testament
already
had an Old Testament context in which the prophecy was immediately
(yet
deficiently) fulfilled. Same with Jesus' prophecies going forward.
Ike
JERRY
This should be fun. And, how do *you* interpret the verses I quote to
mean something other than "this generation" and "some standing here
who shall not taste of death?"
I don't have to. You're erroneously slamming together two different
unrelated prophecies, Matthew 16, and Matthew 24.
The prophecy in Matthew 16 is about the coming of the Kingdom in power,
i.e.
Pentecost.
JERRY
Nope. Look at it again.
16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,
and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his
soul?
16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
his angels; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.
JERRY
So, Ike, Fifty says after the Resurrection, Jesus returned In the
Glory of his FATHER, angels all around and they "rewarded EVERY MAN
ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS?" Doesn't sound like Pentecost to me.
What did I say about Matthew's Gospel, Jerry?
Luke (thanks to Paul) understood that Jesus had given His prophetic
narrative twice.
Mark didn't know this, and only recorded it once.
Matthew, working from both Mark and Luke's documents didn't KNOW about the
two presentations, and lumped everything together--badly, at that.
So Matthew jumbled references.
For instance, Luke puts the following phrase in the context of God's
gathering of th elect: "Wheresoever the eagles are gathered, there will the
corpses be."
But LUKE puts it together right, in reference to God gathering the enemies
of God for destruction, and John documents in Revelation, i.e. wherein God
calls upon the "fowls of the air" to devour, which is how Luke uses the
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