Death Destroyed

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	24 Jan 2008 03:23:22 AM
Object:	Death Destroyed

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>
Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)
Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."
St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)
Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."
--
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	24 Jan 2008 12:36:05 PM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Maybe this is out of place or I am just not getting the gist of what you're
saying; but if I am, then are you saying that Christ already returned and
all the prophesies of the bible have been fulfilled? If so, then it would
logically follow that because of death having been destroyed that you're
saying that when someone today dies that they have their soul reborn into
another body and that is the eternal life spoken of by Jesus? It would
also follow that because of reincarnation those that were standing by and
were told that "some standing here shall not taste of death before they see
the son of man returning in power and glory" were instead reborn into
another body? I am *not* saying that is what you are saying; but rather
that because of what I have been reading from your posts it would seem to me
that reincarnation of the soul into a new body would be the only way your
posts could conclude that everything has been fulfilled and that everyone
here on earth today are just reincarnated souls from before 70AD. If I am
in error then could you maybe explain to me how if everything has been
fulfilled prior to 70AD how it is that we are no immortal *without*
reincarnation being the mechanism with which immortality is being
accomplished.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
............ /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
-------- \}
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	25 Jan 2008 09:44:32 AM

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:36:05 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Yes. But please do not make the mistake of thinking
that THE WAY that the Futurists says they are to be
fulfilled is automatically true and so, I must show
where it happened THAT WAY.

If so, then it would logically follow that because of
death having been destroyed that you're saying that
when someone today dies that they have their soul
reborn into another body and that is the eternal life
spoken of by Jesus?

No, you're way off! You look at everything from
a physical standpoint, because you're a Futurist.
But it isn't about the physical.
--
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	26 Jan 2008 12:27:51 AM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qq0kp31qicb94ja6eb7oogrfm1d8l1q981@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:36:05 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Yes. But please do not make the mistake of thinking
that THE WAY that the Futurists says they are to be
fulfilled is automatically true and so, I must show
where it happened THAT WAY.

No, you're way off! You look at everything from
a physical standpoint, because you're a Futurist.
But it isn't about the physical.

Actually I don't thin I am a futurist or any type of denomination or even
any known or widely accepted canonized type of belief system; because I see
things in just about all the various view points with which I can agree with
in part but none that I agree with in full
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
,,,,,,,,,,,,/}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
~~~~\}
Gods Words Are my Strength and Sword
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	26 Jan 2008 08:29:48 AM

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 01:27:51 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qq0kp31qicb94ja6eb7oogrfm1d8l1q981@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:36:05 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Yes. But please do not make the mistake of thinking
that THE WAY that the Futurists says they are to be
fulfilled is automatically true and so, I must show
where it happened THAT WAY.

No, you're way off! You look at everything from
a physical standpoint, because you're a Futurist.
But it isn't about the physical.

Actually I don't thin I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.
--
"It is a wise father, who knows his own child."
- William Shakespeare
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	26 Jan 2008 10:31:01 PM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dtgmp3trmg62ukagmj7ctvdv3nm1l0kc3a@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 01:27:51 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qq0kp31qicb94ja6eb7oogrfm1d8l1q981@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:36:05 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

While the Futurists love to appeal to the "church fathers",
they absolutely hate it when the "church fathers" do not
agree with them and because they know that they have
tried to use these so called "church fathers" to prove
their claims, they attack me personally, instead of
addressing these quotes! And then they go so far
as to claim that I'm quoting them out of context,
when my quotes were a response to them quoting them
out of context and quoting the rest of what they said,
to show that they quoted them out of context! That's
because Futurists hate the truth, if the truth does not
mean that it's all about them, today, even though the
very people that they quote, thought it was all about
them in their time! Bawahahaha!!! <chuckle>

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up
the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Yes. But please do not make the mistake of thinking
that THE WAY that the Futurists says they are to be
fulfilled is automatically true and so, I must show
where it happened THAT WAY.

No, you're way off! You look at everything from
a physical standpoint, because you're a Futurist.
But it isn't about the physical.

Actually I don't thin I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether or not *all* the prophecies
have been fulfilled. The last study I just completed took me almost 10
years to do. During that time I studied Death and Hell. I was led to
understand that *no one* will be tormented for eternity and that the soul
that sins will be * destroyed*; because although being tormented in hell
would be something anyone would want to avoid it would none the less be
eternal life and the gift to the righteous and forgiven is eternal life.
Also my God is a loving and just God and I do NOT believe after sending his
Son Jesus as an example that Jesus example of dying on the cross for
*everyone's* sins all through out time and his resurrection shows that the
sinners soul will *die*.
some of what I have read and studied some what in Revelation could be
attributed to Nero, because Nero tried to commit suicide and his wound was
heal much like what is talked about in revelation. Nero could be the beast
that is talked about and I can see how the destruction of Jerusalem in the
first century could also be spoken of. However I can just as easy see it as
a future event. I am still studying and reading and praying for
enlightenment.
As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what happened in the past,
well other then Jesus dying for my sins. nor what is going to happen in the
future; because I try and live in the *NOW*, I try each and every day to do
my best to be as close an example to others of what Jesus would be that is
within my power to do so. I do not drink intoxicants ; but having said that
I believe that if I wanted to I could and it would be NO sin; because the
bible doesn't say it is. The closest it comes to saying you can't drink
wine and such is when it says to not be drunken; but having a drink of
win,beer or whiskey or even a few without getting drunk isn't a sin as far
as what I believe. I personally quit drinking about 10 years after becoming
a Christian not because I thought it was sinful to do so; but because I
wanted to draw closer to God. I also quite smoking cigarettes back in 2000,
again not because I thought it was sinful; but because I felt that I should
do everything I could to set myself as an example and although *I* know that
it isn't sinful the world that doesn't know the bible thinks it is, and I
believe that I should try my best to not show even the possibility of what
the world even *thinks* is sinful; because my doing so my cause some young
Christian to stumble. I can post verses to back up what I have said if you
like; but I think you will agree that the important thing isn't in
contending about endless genealogies or histories or what is going to
happen; but that the true important thing is to try and stay on the straight
and narrow path and to be of a *help* to others and to not worry about
doubtful disputations.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
.. /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
.. \}
Gods Words Are my Strength and Sword
.

User: "Shotgun2099"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	27 Jan 2008 01:56:36 AM

On Jan 26, 11:31=A0pm, "Sugien" <paulbryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message

news:dtgmp3trmg62ukagmj7ctvdv3nm1l0kc3a@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 01:27:51 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryan...@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qq0kp31qicb94ja6eb7oogrfm1d8l1q981@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:36:05 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryan...@gmail.com> said the following:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6mgp3lh5ob50q2ffq2l2toa7kfmuttthm@4ax.com...

Anyway, on with the quotes that you'll hate, Futurists!
And yes, especially you, Chuckles the Clown! :)

Melito of Sardis: "Who will contend against me? =A0Let him
stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead. =A0It is I who raised up
the buried. =A0Who will argue with me? =A0It is I, says Christ,
who destroyed death. =A0It is I who triumphed over the
enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the
Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the
heights of heaven."

St. Athanasius: "Now, however, that the devil, that tyrant
against the whole world, is slain, we do not approach a
temporal feast, my beloved, but an eternal and heavenly.
Not in shadows do we shew it forth, but we come to it in
truth. =A0For they being filled with the flesh of a dumb lamb,
accomplished the feast, and having anointed their door-posts
with the blood, implored aid against the destroyer. =A0For
no more does death reign; but instead of death henceforth
is life, since our Lord said, 'I am the life;' so that
everything is filled with joy and gladness; as it is
written, 'The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice.'
For when death reigned, 'sitting down by the rivers of
Babylon, we wept,' and mourned, because we felt the
bitterness of captivity; but now that death and the kingdom
of the devil is abolished, everything is entirely filled
with joy and gladness. =A0And God is no longer known only
in Judaea, but in all the earth, 'their voice hath gone
forth, and the knowledge of Him hath filled all the earth.'
(Letter 256, Part 3)

Odes of Solomon: "Because He is my Sun and His rays have
lifted me up and His light hath dispelled all darkness from
my face. =A0In Him I have acquired eyes and have seen His holy
day: =A0The way of error I have left, and have walked towards
Him and have received salvation from Him, without grudging.
I have put on incorruption through His name: and have put
off corruption by His grace. =A0Death hath been destroyed
before my face: and Sheol bath been abolished by my word."

Yes. =A0But please do not make the mistake of thinking
that THE WAY that the Futurists says they are to be
fulfilled is automatically true and so, I must show
where it happened THAT WAY.

No, you're way off! =A0You look at everything from
a physical standpoint, because you're a Futurist.
But it isn't about the physical.

Actually I don't thin I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. =A0That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether or not *all* the prophecies=
have been fulfilled. =A0The last study I just completed took me almost 10
years to do. =A0During that time I studied Death and Hell. =A0I was led to=
understand that *no one* will be tormented for eternity and that the soul
that sins will be * destroyed*; because although being tormented in hell
would be something anyone would want to avoid it would none the less be
eternal life and the gift to the righteous and forgiven is eternal life.
Also my God is a loving and just God and I do NOT believe after sending hi=

Son Jesus as an example that Jesus example of dying on the cross for
*everyone's* sins all through out time and his resurrection shows that the=
sinners soul will *die*.
=A0 =A0some of what I have read and studied some what in Revelation could =

attributed to Nero, because Nero tried to commit suicide and his wound was=
heal much like what is talked about in revelation. =A0Nero could be the be=

ast

that is talked about and I can see how the destruction of Jerusalem in the=
first century could also be spoken of. =A0However I can just as easy see i=

t as

a future event. =A0I am still studying and reading and praying for
enlightenment.
=A0 =A0 As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what happened in the=

past,

well other then Jesus dying for my sins. nor what is going to happen in th=

future; because I try and live in the *NOW*, I try each and every day to d=

my best to be as close an example to others of what Jesus would be that is=
within my power to do so. =A0I do not drink intoxicants ; but having said =

that

I believe that if I wanted to I could and it would be NO sin; because the
bible doesn't say it is. =A0The closest it comes to saying you can't drink=
wine and such is when it says to not be drunken; but having a drink of
win,beer or whiskey or even a few without getting drunk isn't a sin as far=
as what I believe. =A0I personally quit drinking about 10 years after beco=

ming

a Christian not because I thought it was sinful to do so; but because I
wanted to draw closer to God. =A0I also quite smoking cigarettes back in 2=

000,

again not because I thought it was sinful; but because I felt that I shoul=

do everything I could to set myself as an example and although *I* know th=

it isn't sinful the world that doesn't know the bible thinks it is, and I
believe that I should try my best to not show even the possibility of what=
the world even *thinks* is sinful; because my doing so my cause some young=
Christian to stumble. =A0I can post verses to back up what I have said if =

you

like; but I think you will agree that the important thing isn't in
contending about endless genealogies or histories or what is going to
happen; but that the true important thing is to try and stay on the straig=

and narrow path and to be of a *help* to others and to not worry about
doubtful disputations.

--
From the Desk of Paul =A0 CKC
. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 \}
Gods Words Are my Strength and Sword

how do you know rikijo ? please email me or get in touch through im
shotgun2099@hotmail.com for my msn or

for
me emails
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	26 Jan 2008 11:23:28 PM

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:31:01 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

Actually I don't think I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether
or not *all* the prophecies have been fulfilled.

According to your posts, you have.

The last study I just completed took me almost
10 years to do. During that time I studied Death
and Hell. I was led to understand that *no one*
will be tormented for eternity and that the soul
that sins will be * destroyed*

Okay, but seriously, what does that have to do
with what I said?

As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what
happened in the past

And yet the future interests you? That's contradictory.
The fact is, that when you read the Bible, you are
looking into the past, so if you're not interested in
the past, then stop reading the Bible.
--
"The religion that does not begin at home, does not begin"
- Adrian Rogers
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	28 Jan 2008 02:05:18 PM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:855op3t2ii55ivr89c6j6hsjtik7t0otkm@4ax.com...

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:31:01 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

Actually I don't think I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether
or not *all* the prophecies have been fulfilled.

According to your posts, you have.

Okay, but seriously, what does that have to do
with what I said?

As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what
happened in the past

And yet the future interests you? That's contradictory.

The fact is, that when you read the Bible, you are
looking into the past, so if you're not interested in
the past, then stop reading the Bible.

The part I am most interested about in the bible is current for today,
namely salvation. Although I agree that when one reads the bible you are
looking into the past *most* times, I disagree that the bible is ONLY about
the past; because reading it and understanding and believing it helps one
understand what is going on *today*. The bible also tell one how one should
live their life *today* so that they will live their life for God.
I think a lot of people get caught up in "doubtful disputations"
Romans 14:1 �Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful
disputations.
I see Romans 14:1 as saying that we as believers are to talk with and
discuss with others our faith and how we became believers, also what we
believe and why we believe it; but to not argue with them about things that
they are doubtful about or things that they try and dispute as factual.
Every persons walk with God is a *personal* walk, I also believe that
when the bible says that the bible is of no *private interpretation* it is
saying that what any *one* man say that the bible says isn't so and that
although I know some will have a hard time seeing this; because of that
phrase *private interpretation* is that the bible does have certain
different meanings to each individual on some things. The bible saying that
it is of no *private interpretation* means that what one person thinks this
or that means isn't what it means or says to everyone. I also believe that
the bible is for lack of a better word *alive* in a since.
I have been at bible studies where we each read the same passage and
then each wrote down what that passage was saying and very few had the exact
same interpretation and almost half had meanings which were at odds with
some others. I am firmly convinced that the most important things in the
bible are that God is *GOD*. God created everything in the beginning. Man
is born a living (not immortal) soul , Jesus was born of a virgin Died for
every human ever born's soul, resurrected on the 3rd day. I believe that
when a person accepts God that they must truly repent of their sins which
entails not only being truly sorry but also doing their best to not repeat
past sins, accepts Jesus as their lord and savior and are *then* baptized
in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit and from that day on
try as much as they can to treat every other human as what they would treat
Jesus if he were walking as long as they do not revert to doing all the sins
which they done in the past that they will be forgiven their sins and that
those sins will be put in the sea of forgetfulness never to be remembered by
God and that after they die their soul will be reunited with GOD and dwell
with him for eternity. I do not believe that once saved always saved;
because a person that has been saved and baptized can revert to their former
sins like a dog returning to their vomit.
I believe it is ok and commendable for one to study the past and try
and find what *they* need to in order for them to become closer to God.
Personally however I don't think it necessary to know who wrote what , when
they wrote it or even whether the second coming has past or is to come;
because our belief about that actually has nothing to do with our salvation;
because we *are* here *NOW* and we are *not* in heaven or living with Jesus.
I think people in their zeal to prove to others that their own personal
interpretation of certain verses is right and that the other persons is
wrong that they show more secularism and conduct unbecoming a believer then
at most any other time.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
.. /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
.. \}
Gods Words Are my Strength and Sword
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	28 Jan 2008 02:56:47 PM

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:05:18 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> spake thusly:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:31:01 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

Actually I don't think I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether
or not *all* the prophecies have been fulfilled.

According to your posts, you have.

Okay, but seriously, what does that have to do
with what I said?

As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what
happened in the past

And yet the future interests you? That's contradictory.

The fact is, that when you read the Bible, you are
looking into the past, so if you're not interested in
the past, then stop reading the Bible.

The part I am most interested about in the Bible
is current for today, namely salvation.

So you are saying that your main interest is in
the salvation of people today? Or do you mean
it in a physical sense?

Although I agree that when one reads the bible
you are looking into the past *most* times,
I disagree that the bible is ONLY about the past;
because reading it and understanding and
believing it helps one understand what is going
on *today*.

Please describe this statement. What do you mean by,
"what is going on today"? Do you mean prophecy?
Or do you mean in general, as in life in general?

I see Romans 14:1 as saying that we as believers
are to talk with and discuss with others our faith
and how we became believers, also what we
believe and why we believe it;

I agree.

but to not argue with them about things that they
are doubtful about or things that they try and
dispute as factual.

Pease define, "argue".

Every persons walk with God is a *personal* walk,

I agree.

I also believe that when the bible says that the bible
is of no *private interpretation* it is saying that what
any *one* man say that the bible says isn't so and
that although I know some will have a hard time
seeing this; because of that phrase *private interpretation*
is that the bible does have certain different meanings to
each individual on some things.

That isn't what it's saying though.
1) It speaks specifically of prophecy.
2) It does not say that it's okay to have your own
idea and promote it as truth. In fact, it says
the exact opposite. That it is not to be done.

God created everything in the beginning.

And what do you think that means, related to Gen 1-2?

Man is born a living (not immortal) soul

I disagree. Man is born with the stain of original sin,
but is not born guilty. God does not convict man
because of his father. He convicts him because of sin
and there is no sin, until he sins and that does not
happen until he knows it is sin. And either way,
a man dies and does live beyond his physical death,
at least ling enough to be judged.

Jesus was born of a virgin Died for every human
ever born's soul, resurrected on the 3rd day.

He was born without the stain of original sin.
Had that not been so, He would have sinned.
And the reason Jesus was sinless, was because
He was not born into the desire to sin, yet had
that pull, tugging at Him, since His mother was
a sinful being.

I believe it is ok and commendable for one to study
the past and try and find what *they* need to in order
for them to become closer to God.

The fact is, that the entire Futurist view is based on
complete ignorance of the past and that is why they
think Jesus has yet to return.
Ignorance of:
1) The fact that the Scriptures were given by God,
but given by Jews and were to Jews.
2) The Jewish way of living, thinking, writing & speaking.
3) The history of what happened both before and during
Jesus' generation.
These three things combine to create the ignorance of
the Futurist view and whether or not *you* *personally*
think this is important or not, is irrelevant as to whether
or not it is of great importance.

because our belief about that actually has nothing
to do with our salvation

Yes, it does! It has a lot to do with it! Do you really
think that it's okay for someone to call Jesus a liar
and still claim to be saved?!
Think about it this way... If Jesus kept His word and did
return within that same generation, which is what He said
He would do (unless you want to try to reword Scripture),
then most Christians are calling Him a liar, whether it is
intentional or not. And most Christians contradict
themselves, calling Him "King of kings and Lord of lords"
and then claim that He has no Kingdom yet, because in
their ignorance, they think it was supposed to be physical!
Now you don't see that as an issue? I do!
--
When you get tangled up in your problems, be still.
God wants us to be still, so he can untangle the knot.
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	29 Jan 2008 12:15:47 AM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kmesp3tvd0k0ijutvlbsl207ij60m9mjue@4ax.com...

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:05:18 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> spake thusly:

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:31:01 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> said the following:

Actually I don't think I am a Futurist

You are waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled
and for Christ to return. That makes you a
Futurist.

actually I have not made up my mind on whether
or not *all* the prophecies have been fulfilled.

According to your posts, you have.

Okay, but seriously, what does that have to do
with what I said?

As I said earlier, I am not so concerned with what
happened in the past

And yet the future interests you? That's contradictory.

The fact is, that when you read the Bible, you are
looking into the past, so if you're not interested in
the past, then stop reading the Bible.

The part I am most interested about in the Bible
is current for today, namely salvation.

So you are saying that your main interest is in
the salvation of people today? Or do you mean
it in a physical sense?

No salvation of their soul

Please describe this statement. What do you mean by,
"what is going on today"? Do you mean prophecy?
Or do you mean in general, as in life in general?

What is going on today pertaining to a persons salvation and how not to be
lead astray or to be pulled back into sin

I see Romans 14:1 as saying that we as believers
are to talk with and discuss with others our faith
and how we became believers, also what we
believe and why we believe it;

I agree.

but to not argue with them about things that they
are doubtful about or things that they try and
dispute as factual.

Pease define, "argue".

Name calling, getting red faced while typing, so much so that if a
non-believer were reading the exchange they may say to their self "I don't
want what either (or any) of them have"

Every persons walk with God is a *personal* walk,

I agree.

That isn't what it's saying though.

1) It speaks specifically of prophecy.

I disagree

2) It does not say that it's okay to have your own
idea and promote it as truth. In fact, it says
the exact opposite. That it is not to be done.

I was not saying that it is ok to *promote* it as truth and in fact I
believe that either espousing ones belief or to teach ones belief is a
*dangerous* thing; becasue if a person *leads* another into the ditch (sin)
he is double dammned

God created everything in the beginning.

And what do you think that means, related to Gen 1-2?

What I am saying is that before God created anything, there was nothing in
existance except for God

Man is born a living (not immortal) soul

I disagree, this is the pagan religion and what Plato taught that man is
born as an immortal soul. What you contend can be shown in error because
babies die and are not immortal. You said that "there is no sin, until he
sins " and if that were so and the soul was immortal then any child that
doesn't know what sin is could not die. Likewise simply living beyond
physical death only long enough to be judged is not an immortal soul;
because the soul that sins shall die according to the bible. I believe that
God does not give the gift of immortality to the sinner to life for ever in
torment is still immortality and only the righteous shall live for ever.

Jesus was born of a virgin Died for every human
ever born's soul, resurrected on the 3rd day.

He was born without the stain of original sin.
Had that not been so, He would have sinned.

I disagree; because Jesus was God in the flesh

And the reason Jesus was sinless, was because
He was not born into the desire to sin, yet had
that pull, tugging at Him, since His mother was
a sinful being.

I believe it is ok and commendable for one to study
the past and try and find what *they* need to in order
for them to become closer to God.

The fact is, that the entire Futurist view is based on
complete ignorance of the past and that is why they
think Jesus has yet to return.

I disagree that Jesus has already returned and set up his kingdom as a
spiritual kingdom; because Jesus said that he was going away to prepare a
place for us so that where he is there shall we be also and had he returned
we would be where he is and because we are not he did not return.

Ignorance of:

1) The fact that the Scriptures were given by God,
but given by Jews and were to Jews.

2) The Jewish way of living, thinking, writing & speaking.

3) The history of what happened both before and during
Jesus' generation.

These three things combine to create the ignorance of
the Futurist view and whether or not *you* *personally*
think this is important or not, is irrelevant as to whether
or not it is of great importance.

I could say the same thing to you in that whether or noth you personally
believe in those three things or think them important or not is irrelevant
as to whether or not it isn't as inportant as what *you* think

because our belief about that actually has nothing
to do with our salvation

Yes, it does! It has a lot to do with it! Do you really
think that it's okay for someone to call Jesus a liar
and still claim to be saved?!

I never said that it was ok to call Jesus a liar; but your saying that if a
person doesn't believe the way you do makes them a liar is simply not true.

Think about it this way... If Jesus kept His word and did
return within that same generation, which is what He said
He would do (unless you want to try to reword Scripture),

I am still studying that; but as I said even *IF* I never come to a
conclusion as to whether or not Jesus returned in the past or if he will
return in the future I can still obtain redemption and be a child of God and
live for ever praising God after my body dies. Which is what I was trying
to get across when I said that it *truly* is not important, well as least
where a persons personal salvation is concerned.

then most Christians are calling Him a liar, whether it is
intentional or not. And most Christians contradict
themselves, calling Him "King of kings and Lord of lords"

Why is that? The bible calles him that so why can they not?

and then claim that He has no Kingdom yet, because in

The bible also says that he has no Kingdom as yet and the bible goes on to
say that when Jesus returns we will be with him for ever; because he went to
prepare a place for us so that where he is we shall be also; but as I said I
am still studying the points you are contending about Jesus having already
returned; but I have to tell you it sounds a little far out there to me;
because if Jesus had already returned where is the new heaven and the new
earth?

their ignorance, they think it was supposed to be physical!

So far what I read says that it hasn't happned and that it will be both
physical and spiritual.

Now you don't see that as an issue? I do!

What I do not see as an issue is whether a person believes Jesus returned
already or if he is yet to return; because their personal salvation only
relies on their accepting Jesus as their personal savior, repentance of sin
and a life lived by continually denying sin and living a sinless life as
much as they can, and their being baptized in the name of the father , the
son and the holy ghost. If they do all that and believe that Jesus is yet
to return and *IF* that are wrong about it, I don't think it will keep them
out of heaven or from living for eternity with God.
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
.. /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
.. \}
Gods Words Are my Strength and Sword
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	29 Jan 2008 01:05:25 AM

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:15:47 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> spake thusly:

The part I am most interested about in the Bible
is current for today, namely salvation.

So you are saying that your main interest is in
the salvation of people today? Or do you mean
it in a physical sense?

No salvation of their soul

Okay, we are in agreement here and I am happy
about that! :)

Please describe this statement. What do you mean by,
"what is going on today"? Do you mean prophecy?
Or do you mean in general, as in life in general?

What is going on today pertaining to a persons salvation
and how not to be lead astray or to be pulled back into sin

Okay. Again, we are in agreement! :)

but to not argue with them about things that they
are doubtful about or things that they try and
dispute as factual.

Pease define, "argue".

Name calling, getting red faced while typing,
so much so that if a non-believer were reading
the exchange they may say to their self "I don't
want what either (or any) of them have"

Okay, again, I agree! :)

That isn't what it's saying though.

1) It speaks specifically of prophecy.

I disagree

Then why does it say the word "prophecy"?
"knowing this first, that no *_PROPHECY_* of Scripture
is of any private interpretation" - 2 Peter 1:20

2) It does not say that it's okay to have your own
idea and promote it as truth. In fact, it says
the exact opposite. That it is not to be done.

I was not saying that it is ok to *promote* it as truth
and in fact I believe that either espousing ones belief
or to teach ones belief is a *dangerous* thing; becasue
if a person *leads* another into the ditch (sin) he is
double dammned

Well, double damn you! Hahaha!!! Just kidding! :)
All seriousness aside, I think it is okay to teach
one's belief about a Scripture that may not be
entirely clear to everyone, as long as one says;
"This is my *_BELIEF_* about what it says,
but I may be wrong."

God created everything in the beginning.

And what do you think that means, related to Gen 1-2?

What I am saying is that before God created anything,
there was nothing in existance except for God

Okay, thank you for your response and it is obvious
that I did not make myself clear and that is my fault.
What I meant was... Do you believe that God created
the world in six literal days, as Genesis 1 & 2 say He did?

Man is born a living (not immortal) soul

I disagree, this is the pagan religion and what Plato
taught that man is born as an immortal soul.

Please do not call my belief "pagan". Is it not possible
that you are wrong???
The belief in an immortal soul was in many religions.
That does not mean that my belief came from a pagan
religion, nor that you are right and I am wrong about
the Christian faith.
Now if you are saying immortal as in forever existing,
that is one thing. But let me tell you what I mean,
before judging me, which I thought I did, but maybe
once again, I did not make myself clear.
A man's soul will live after death. The question is;
For how long?
Now how do I know that every man's soul will live
after physical death? Very simple! It says in Scripture;
"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after
this the judgment." - Hebrews 9:27
Now how does one go to judgment, if one dies physically
and then nothing? Do you see what I'm saying here?
Now we may discuss the issue of "how long". Like I said,
there is in Scripture, "the second death" and if you wish
to say that if the person is not saved, then that means
that that person then is "killed off for good" and does not
exist any more, then okay, we can discuss that and frankly,
I tend to lean that way myself. But as far as I see it,
the Scripture is clear that a person survives after their
physical death, at least long enough to be judged,
which I believe is instantaneous after their physical death.

What you contend can be shown in error because babies
die and are not immortal.

That is a claim, not proof and nowhere does the Scripture
say, "Babies die and are not immortal", so that is your
assumption, not proof!

You said that "there is no sin, until he sins"

No, what I said is that there is no sin that can be held
to a person's record, until they have sinned. Why is it
that you think God would hold them accountable for
something they haven't done yet?
GOD: Well, I see you're here to be judged! Now, let's
see what you've done, so that I can judge you!
Hmmm... Well, there was that time that...
No, wait a minute. You didn't do that. Okay,
well, there was that time that you.... Hmmm...
No, okay, you didn't do that either. Okay well
then, I'll just judge you for the time you....
Oh, darn! You didn't do that yet either! Hmmm!
Well, I'm just gonna condemn you anyway,
because Adam ate some fruit, okay?! You don't
have any problem with that, do you?! That's fair,
right? No? Okay, you're right. darn! Oh wait...
I know how to get you! Everyone now, since
my Son Jesus Christ, is judged by whether or not
they accepted Him! You didn't accept Him, right?!
Hahaha!!! Gotcha! Na, na, na, na, na!!! Wait,
what's that??? You couldn't even talk yet and
didn't even know who Jesus was and couldn't
even understand language yet? Oh, man!
I guess I can't even get you on that! Hmph!
Well, you know what? Too bad! That guy
"Sugien" said it's okay for me to condemn you
anyway, so that's it, little baby! No excuses!
To Hell with you and to Hell you go!
Dude, I hope that is not the God you worship! (:

and if that were so and the soul was immortal then
any child that doesn't know what sin is could not die.

And doesn't! Not his soul anyway! Unless you can
show me just one passage that says that those who
have committed NO SIN can be damned?!

Likewise simply living beyond physical death only
long enough to be judged is not an immortal soul;

Man is born with an immortal soul! Be born and
commit NO SINS and you will be in Heaven for
eternity! How do you think Jesus got there?!
Hello?!?
He was the ONLY ONE to go to Heaven based on
His own works!
Hello?!?
No one died for Jesus, sir! He didn't even die for
Himself! If He had, then He couldn't have saved us!
Therefore, you need to stop and think! If what I said
were not true, then Jesus would not be in Heaven
right now, son! He went to Heaven, because He lived
a completely sinless life and yet, He had a human mother,
which means that the stain of original sin was passed on
to Him! MARY WAS HUMAN, DUDE!!! So if original sin
condemns us, then Jesus is lost and you have no Savior!

Jesus was born of a virgin Died for every human
ever born's soul, resurrected on the 3rd day.

He was born without the stain of original sin.
Had that not been so, He would have sinned.

I disagree; because Jesus was God in the flesh

I am sorry, I misworded that. He was born with
the stain of original sin. I misspoke and did not
mean that the way I wrote it.

And the reason Jesus was sinless, was because
He was not born into the desire to sin, yet had
that pull, tugging at Him, since His mother was
a sinful being.

See what I mean? By reading this paragraph,
you can see that I meant to say the opposite. :)

I believe it is ok and commendable for one to study
the past and try and find what *they* need to in order
for them to become closer to God.

The fact is, that the entire Futurist view is based on
complete ignorance of the past and that is why they
think Jesus has yet to return.

I disagree that Jesus has already returned and set up
his kingdom as a spiritual kingdom; because Jesus said
that he was going away to prepare a place for us so
that where he is there shall we be also and had he
returned we would be where he is and because we
are not he did not return.

No, that's in error!
1) He went TO HEAVEN to prepare that place!
2) The place we will be in, is Heaven.
3) This happens after we die.
4) Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21, that the KoG
could not be seen with the human eye and
that it could not be pointed at.
5) Jesus never once said, "But later, it will be physical".

I could say the same thing to you

No, you couldn't, since I am an expert on those subjects.
And that is not conceit. I am just stating a fact and for
you (no offense), in your ignorance of these things,
try to pretend that you can point your finger at me
over them, is simply just ridiculous!

because our belief about that actually has nothing
to do with our salvation

Yes, it does! It has a lot to do with it! Do you really
think that it's okay for someone to call Jesus a liar
and still claim to be saved?!

I never said that it was ok to call Jesus a liar; but your
saying that if a person doesn't believe the way you do
makes them a liar is simply not true.

I didn't say you are a liar. I said that if Jesus said
one thing and your belief says the opposite, then
you end up making Him out to be a liar, which
I did not say was intentional on your part.
The fact is, that I am saying that this subject does indeed
have something to do with our salvation, because if we say
that Jesus lied, then how can we be saved?

Think about it this way... If Jesus kept His word and did
return within that same generation, which is what He said
He would do (unless you want to try to reword Scripture),

I am still studying that; but as I said even *IF* I never
come to a conclusion as to whether or not Jesus returned
in the past or if he will return in the future I can still obtain
redemption

I believe you, because you are studying it! But how many
don't and place their doctrine above everything else?!

then most Christians are calling Him a liar, whether it is
intentional or not. And most Christians contradict
themselves, calling Him "King of kings and Lord of lords"

Why is that? The bible calles him that so why can they not?

Because they don't believe it and their doctrine
contradicts it. Want to know how?

and then claim that He has no Kingdom yet, because in

The bible also says that he has no Kingdom as yet

No, the Bible does not say that and you just contradicted
yourself, when you claim He is "King of kings"!
How is one "King of kings", when one doesn't have a kingdom?
And who is the first one in that sentence?! Jesus!
And who makes up the second use of that word?
The kings of this Earth!
So you say that He is King over all the kings of the Earth
and then have the gall to claim that He has no kingdom
and doesn't rule over them yet?! And you can't see the
contradiction there?! Hello?!?
And please don't try to cop out, saying, "But later...".
You call Him that NOW, SON!!!

their ignorance, they think it was supposed to be physical!

So far what I read says that it hasn't happned and that it
will be both physical and spiritual.

Nowhere does it say that!
--
"Don't give up. Moses was once a basket case."
.

User: "Sugien"
Title: Re: Death Destroyed	29 Jan 2008 01:52:23 PM

"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2itp3pte1u9n20fjejdvc5va2is30bbgs@4ax.com...

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:15:47 -0500, "Sugien"
<paulbryantsr@gmail.com> spake thusly:

The part I am most interested about in the Bible
is current for today, namely salvation.

So you are saying that your main interest is in
the salvation of people today? Or do you mean
it in a physical sense?

No salvation of their soul

Okay, we are in agreement here and I am happy
about that! :)

Please describe this statement. What do you mean by,
"what is going on today"? Do you mean prophecy?
Or do you mean in general, as in life in general?

What is going on today pertaining to a persons salvation
and how not to be lead astray or to be pulled back into sin

Okay. Again, we are in agreement! :)

but to not argue with them about things that they
are doubtful about or things that they try and
dispute as factual.

Pease define, "argue".

Name calling, getting red faced while typing,
so much so that if a non-believer were reading
the exchange they may say to their self "I don't
want what either (or any) of them have"

Okay, again, I agree! :)

That isn't what it's saying though.

1) It speaks specifically of prophecy.

I disagree

Then why does it say the word "prophecy"?

"knowing this first, that no *_PROPHECY_* of Scripture
is of any private interpretation" - 2 Peter 1:20

It is saying that if a *prophit* has been given a prophecy that he should
not keep it to himself

2) It does not say that it's okay to have your own
idea and promote it as truth. In fact, it says
the exact opposite. That it is not to be done.

I was not saying that it is ok to *promote* it as truth
and in fact I believe that either espousing ones belief
or to teach ones belief is a *dangerous* thing; becasue
if a person *leads* another into the ditch (sin) he is
double dammned

Well, double damn you! Hahaha!!! Just kidding! :)

All seriousness aside, I think it is okay to teach
one's belief about a Scripture that may not be
entirely clear to everyone, as long as one says;

"This is my *_BELIEF_* about what it says,
but I may be wrong."

I most always say that; but I guess I could add the "but I may be wrong"
quite a bit more often then what I do. I do so most always when talking in
a RL group or with someone one on one; but I think I forget to do so in here
as much as what I need to;)

God created everything in the beginning.

And what do you think that means, related to Gen 1-2?

What I am saying is that before God created anything,
there was nothing in existance except for God

Okay, thank you for your response and it is obvious
that I did not make myself clear and that is my fault.

What I meant was... Do you believe that God created
the world in six literal days, as Genesis 1 & 2 say He did?

Actually I am sort of still studying it; because I see several sides of it
and maybe one or two sides that I have not seen anyone take. for instance
when the bible says that God is light and in him is no darkness at all, I
feel that God being *all* light and *no* darkness that he would according to
mans understanding of physics be traveling at the speed of light and that
his taking 6 of *his* literal days to create things would seem quite a bit
longer to everything that is not traveling at the speed of light. Likewise
I believe that God exists in the eternal *NOW* iow, God is in the past,
present and future all at the same time; because I don't believe that God
experiences time the same liner way in which we do. When the bible says
that God knows the end from the beginning I think it is because he
experiences *every* moment in time at the same moment in time. I also
believe that our limited finite mind has a hard time grasping the concepts
of God and that we try and explain God using mans limited view of physics
and reality.

Man is born a living (not immortal) soul

I disagree, this is the pagan religion and what Plato
taught that man is born as an immortal soul.

Please do not call my belief "pagan". Is it not possible
that you are wrong???

I did not intent to call *your* beliefs pagan; because for one thing I was
not aware that you believed the same way as what *the world* calls pagan
beliefs.

The belief in an immortal soul was in many religions.
That does not mean that my belief came from a pagan
religion, nor that you are right and I am wrong about
the Christian faith.

agreed see above

Now if you are saying immortal as in forever existing,
that is one thing. But let me tell you what I mean,
before judging me, which I thought I did, but maybe
once again, I did not make myself clear.

Yes I was talking about immortal as in forever existing from the time they
are born forever

A man's soul will live after death. The question is;
For how long?

I agree that everyone soul will live after death; because they have to be
judged; but that is not immortal; because I believe that the soul that is
resurrected for judgment if it is a non-repentant sinner their soul will be
destroyed and if the soul was born immortal it could not be destroyed;
because immortal is immortal and to me any way immortal means that it will
live for ever.

Now how do I know that every man's soul will live
after physical death? Very simple! It says in Scripture;

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after
this the judgment." - Hebrews 9:27

Now how does one go to judgment, if one dies physically
and then nothing? Do you see what I'm saying here?

Yes and I also believe that *every* soul will be at the judgment some to be
judged worthy and live for ever and some to be judged as wanting and to have
their soul destroyed into non-existence.

Now we may discuss the issue of "how long". Like I said,
there is in Scripture, "the second death" and if you wish
to say that if the person is not saved, then that means
that that person then is "killed off for good" and does not
exist any more, then okay, we can discuss that and frankly,
I tend to lean that way myself. But as far as I see it,
the Scripture is clear that a person survives after their
physical death, at least long enough to be judged,
which I believe is instantaneous after their physical death.

We are in agreement here; because I can find no where how long it takes to
destroy a soul; but I believe that because of God being a loving and
rightous God at the absloute most it would not take longer then what the
person lived in their mortal life; but I can also see a case being made for
the soul to be destroyed instaniously.

What you contend can be shown in error because babies
die and are not immortal.

That is a claim, not proof and nowhere does the Scripture
say, "Babies die and are not immortal", so that is your
assumption, not proof!

it is proff of the non-immortality of the physical body and that is what I
was talking about; because I was in error in thinking you were saying that
the physical body was born immortal and that only when it sins does it
become mortal

You said that "there is no sin, until he sins"

No, what I said is that there is no sin that can be held
to a person's record, until they have sinned. Why is it
that you think God would hold them accountable for
something they haven't done yet?

That is the way I thought you were saying it was

GOD: Well, I see you're here to be judged! Now, let's
see what you've done, so that I can judge you!
Hmmm... Well, there was that time that...
No, wait a minute. You didn't do that. Okay,
well, there was that time that you.... Hmmm...
No, okay, you didn't do that either. Okay well
then, I'll just judge you for the time you....
Oh, darn! You didn't do that yet either! Hmmm!
Well, I'm just gonna condemn you anyway,
because Adam ate some fruit, okay?! You don't
have any problem with that, do you?! That's fair,
right? No? Okay, you're right. darn! Oh wait...
I know how to get you! Everyone now, since
my Son Jesus Christ, is judged by whether or not
they accepted Him! You didn't accept Him, right?!
Hahaha!!! Gotcha! Na, na, na, na, na!!! Wait,
what's that??? You couldn't even talk yet and
didn't even know who Jesus was and couldn't
even understand language yet? Oh, man!
I guess I can't even get you on that! Hmph!
Well, you know what? Too bad! That guy
"Sugien" said it's okay for me to condemn you
anyway, so that's it, little baby! No excuses!
To Hell with you and to Hell you go!

Dude, I hope that is not the God you worship! (:

I didn't say that in fact I was referancing what I though you said;(
however with that being said, God did condem ALL women from that day forth
" I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou
shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
shall rule over thee." LIkewise that ALL men from that day foward to:
"cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the
days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt
eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the
ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust
shalt thou return." So yes every human is born into sin and is not born an
immortal soul; because the tree of life was not to live physically for ever
but if they had eaten their soul would have become an immortal soul.

and if that were so and the soul was immortal then
any child that doesn't know what sin is could not die.

And doesn't! Not his soul anyway! Unless you can
show me just one passage that says that those who
have committed NO SIN can be damned?!

See above because ALL generations after Adam and Eve absoutly *WERE* dammed
to
" I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou
shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
shall rule over thee." LIkewise that ALL men from that day foward to:
"cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the
days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt
eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the
ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust
shalt thou return." So yes every human is born into sin and is not born an
immortal soul; because the tree of life was not to live physically for ever
but if they had eaten their soul would have become an immortal soul.

Likewise simply living beyond physical death only
long enough to be judged is not an immortal soul;

Man is born with an immortal soul! Be born and
commit NO SINS and you will be in Heaven for
eternity! How do you think Jesus got there?!

I disagree on this; but the net effect is the same; because I don't think
that anyone other then Jesus could livea sinless life; because Jesus is Gods
son and was not conceived by orignal sin nor born into orignal sin as what
all humanity has been since Adam and Eve . Everyonis born into orignal sin
and God does hold Adam and Eves sin agains ALL humanity up until Jesus paid
the price to release us from the orignal sin and gave us a way to attone and
to receive grace and *become* an immortal soul.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death
by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Hello?!?

He was the ONLY ONE to go to Heaven based on
His own works!

Hello?!?

No one died for Jesus, sir! He didn't even die for
Himself! If He had, then He couldn't have saved us!

Therefore, you need to stop and think! If what I said
were not true, then Jesus would not be in Heaven
right now, son! He went to Heaven, because He lived
a completely sinless life and yet, He had a human mother,
which means that the stain of original sin was passed on
to Him! MARY WAS HUMAN, DUDE!!! So if original sin
condemns us, then Jesus is lost and you have no Savior!

I disagree because the orignal sin was commited by *both* man and woman and
as such to be born into orignal sin a person must be the result of a man and
woman conceiving the child. However Jesus was born of a vergin and his
father is God.

Jesus was born of a virgin Died for every human
ever born's soul, resurrected on the 3rd day.

He was born without the stain of original sin.
Had that not been so, He would have sinned.

I disagree; because Jesus was God in the flesh

I am sorry, I misworded that. He was born with
the stain of original sin. I misspoke and did not
mean that the way I wrote it.

I don't believe that because Jesus was God in the flesh and as such could
not have the stain of original sin.
However I will have to give this some more study; because I believe that
although Jesus was fully God he was also fully man and such is the mystery
of God.

And the reason Jesus was sinless, was because
He was not born into the desire to sin, yet had
that pull, tugging at Him, since His mother was
a sinful being.

See what I mean? By reading this paragraph,
you can see that I meant to say the opposite. :)

I believe it is ok and commendable for one to study
the past and try and find what *they* need to in order
for them to become closer to God.

The fact is, that the entire Futurist view is based on
complete ignorance of the past and that is why they
think Jesus has yet to return.

I disagree that Jesus has already returned and set up
his kingdom as a spiritual kingdom; because Jesus said
that he was going away to prepare a place for us so
that where he is there shall we be also and had he
returned we would be where he is and because we
are not he did not return.

No, that's in error!

1) He went TO HEAVEN to prepare that place!

2) The place we will be in, is Heaven.

3) This happens after we die.

4) Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21, that the KoG
could not be seen with the human eye and
that it could not be pointed at.

5) Jesus never once said, "But later, it will be physical".

I could say the same thing to you

You of course are entitled to *your* opinion about your self; because being
an expert (likewise no offense) doesn't amount to a hill of beans where the
scriptures are concerned because God "1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath
chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath
chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are
mighty;" A person could spend 50 years studying theology in seminary and or
university and an 18 year old lead of the spirit could know more. Likewise
although I am most certainly *not* comparing myself to Jesus, Jesus at the
age of 12 confounded men 6 and 7 times his age with his knowledge of the
scriptures. So being a quote un-quote *expert* has nothing to do with it;
because it is of faith and not of book learning except for the bible and I
truly believe that *no one* living today has a *complete* understanding of
scriptures.

because our belief about that actually has nothing
to do with our salvation

Yes, it does! It has a lot to do with it! Do you really
think that it's okay for someone to call Jesus a liar
and still claim to be saved?!

I never said that it was ok to call Jesus a liar; but your
saying that if a person doesn't believe the way you do
makes them a liar is simply not true.

I didn't say you are a liar. I said that if Jesus said
one thing and your belief says the opposite, then
you end up making Him out to be a liar, which
I did not say was intentional on your part.

The fact is, that I am saying that this subject does indeed
have something to do with our salvation, because if we say
that Jesus lied, then how can we be saved?

there in is the crux; because you're saying the verses mean that Jesus said
one thing; but my saying that I get a different meaning do *not* mean that I
am calling Jesus a liar.

Think about it this way... If Jesus kept His word and did
return within that same generation, which is what He said
He would do (unless you want to try to reword Scripture),

I am still studying that; but as I said even *IF* I never
come to a conclusion as to whether or not Jesus returned
in the past or if he will return in the future I can still obtain
redemption

I believe you, because you are studying it! But how many
don't and place their doctrine above everything else?!

I would suspect quite a number, I would futher say that maybe even a larger
number do and don't even realize that they are doing so

then most Christians are calling Him a liar, whether it is
intentional or not. And most Christians contradict
themselves, calling Him "King of kings and Lord of lords"

Why is that? The bible calles him that so why can they not?

Because they don't believe it and their doctrine
contradicts it. Want to know how?

sure

and then claim that He has no Kingdom yet, because in

The bible also says that he has no Kingdom as yet

No, the Bible does not say that and you just contradicted
yourself, when you claim He is "King of kings"!

I don't claim anything I am just stating what the bible says:
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and
only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Revelation 17:14 �These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall
overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are
with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name
written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

How is one "King of kings", when one doesn't have a kingdom?

Well I could use your theory in that you are calling Jesus a liar; because
Jesus said:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom
were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
but I will *not* call you a liar; but rather that you may just not see what
is being said or that you understand it to say something other then what I
see it saying. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world which brings up
another point; becasue if he had already returned he *would have* already
set up his kingdom on earth.

And who is the first one in that sentence?! Jesus!

And who makes up the second use of that word?

The kings of this Earth!

So you say that He is King over all the kings of the Earth
and then have the gall to claim that He has no kingdom
and doesn't rule over them yet?! And you can't see the
contradiction there?! Hello?!?

hello, his kingdom is not of this world; BUT and it is a big *but* his
kingdom is above all kingdoms on earth

And please don't try to cop out, saying, "But later...".

You call Him that NOW, SON!!!

Yes I call him that NOW, because the bible says that:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom
were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

their ignorance, they think it was supposed to be physical!

I don't know about you but this sure sounds physical to me:
Revelation 21:1 �And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So far what I read says that it hasn't happned and that it
will be both physical and spiritual.

Nowhere does it say that!

Revelation 21:1 �And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
So let me understand what you are saying. Are you saying that Jesus already
returned and that the second coming is past? If so then are you further
saying that there will be a 3rd coming? if not what about Revelation 21:1?
Because if the second coming didn't bring the new heaven and earth (which
obviously it has not or else we would be living on the new earth) are you
saying it will come at a future date? If so would that not make you a
futurist?
--
From the Desk of Paul CKC
.. /}
@###{ ]::::::Cyber Knight for Christ::::::>
.. \}
Gods W