Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"HoundDog"
Date:	10 Dec 2003 07:16:13 PM
Object:	Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)

About a month ago, Michael posted the following inaccurate or
misleading statements about the use of christian/biblical symbols in
the US. As
usual, he like other fundies, mislead:
To wit,
Michael's comments are inside *****************************
*************************************************************************
As you walk up the steps to the Capitol Building which houses the
Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the
world¹s
law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing
forward with a full frontal view - it is Moses and the Ten
Commandments!
****************************************************************************
I'm not sure what you mean. The Supreme Court is in a different
building. You may mean the House Chamber that has in bas relief
figures of historic law givers, including Moses as well as Pagans,
Jews, and Roman emperors. No depiction of the commandments.
IF you mean the Supreme Court, across the street from the capitol,
then you need to mention the other figures:
At the center of the pediment, the figures of Moses, Confucius and
Solon represent three great civilizations. Flanking these figures are
symbols which represent law enforcement and the tempering of justice
with mercy. The presence of children suggests that civilization will
continue through the learning of right and wrong.
The two figures with shields on the left-hand side suggest that
disputes between states will be settled through enlightened justice.
On the right side are symbols of maritime and other large functions
which protect the United States.
At the corners of the pediment are symbols which represent the fable
of the Tortoise and the Hare, study and the pondering of judgments,
and the supremacy of the Court.
One might use your logic to proclaim our laws are based on children's
fables, pagans, or eastern religions.
**************************************************************************
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have
the
Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
***************************************************************************
It is not the 10 Commandments, but a depiction of tablets with Roman
numerals on them. The Commandments themselves don't appear. This is a
quibble, but it's an important quibble. The location is low
suggesting and easily missed, suggesting they have a lesser role.
*************************************************************************
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall right above
where the Supreme Court judges sit a display of the Ten Commandments!
*************************************************************************
NOT SO>
These lawgivers are there: Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon,
Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus, Justinian, Mohammed,
Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone,
John Marshall, and Napoleon. Moses is holding blank tablets. The Moses
figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver. NO 10
commandments there, look at the picture.
Photo: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/photo7.html
*************************************************************************
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings
and
Monuments in Washington, D.C.
**************************************************************************
Maybe there are. Let us see a list of them.

********************************************************************
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our
Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole
of
all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for
self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern
ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the
Ten
Commandments of God."
**********************************************************************
I don't know of any Madison scholars who will say Madison said this.
What is the source?

****************************************************************************
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said,
³It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation
was
founded not by religionists but by Christians ... not on religions but
on
the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
************************************************************************
Where may one find this quote? I've found references that it was
never said or written by him but is a fundie made up quote. It seems
the only place where you are able to find it is on fundie websites.

**********************************************************************
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.
*********************************************************************
Indeed it does but prayers to God don't mean the God is the christian
god; it is likely the god of Madison who was a deist. I know many
students of all religions who pray for divine assistance during
finals. I think there is a parallel to why prayer starts sessions of
congress.
ENding with some of Madison's words, note I GIVE THE SOURCE:
"
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. "
[Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the
General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]
HD
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	11 Dec 2003 09:53:39 PM

In article <987f5b85.0312101716.27161e22@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

We know, both the Capitol and the Supreme Court are Capitol Buildings
located in the District of Columbia. Sorry if that confused you.
You may mean the House Chamber that has in bas relief

figures of historic law givers, including Moses as well as Pagans,
Jews, and Roman emperors. No depiction of the commandments.

No, I mean the Supreme Court building.

IF you mean the Supreme Court, across the street from the capitol,
then you need to mention the other figures:

At the center of the pediment, the figures of Moses, Confucius

Confucius came much later and probably relied upon the Scripture as a
remnant of the Parthian empire which is where the Israelites went after
exile (they weren't in Judea at the time of Christ).
and

Solon represent three great civilizations.

True, all based upon the law given to man by God. But the Lord of the
nation as referenced in Article 7 of the Constitution for the United
States of America is clearly refering to Jesus Christ, not Confucius nor
Solon.
Flanking these figures are

symbols which represent law enforcement and the tempering of justice
with mercy.

Let's see, that concept is the Word of God from beginning to end.
The presence of children suggests that civilization will

continue through the learning of right and wrong.

Which doesn't change.

The two figures with shields on the left-hand side suggest that
disputes between states will be settled through enlightened justice.
On the right side are symbols of maritime and other large functions
which protect the United States.

Your point is? Luke 22:36* Then said [Jesus] unto them, But now, he that
hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no
sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

At the corners of the pediment are symbols which represent the fable
of the Tortoise and the Hare, study and the pondering of judgments,
and the supremacy of the Court.

Your point is? Proverbs 30: 24 There be four things which are little upon
the earth, but they are exceeding wise: 25 The ants are a people not
strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer 26 The conies are but a
feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks;27 The locusts have
no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;28 The spider taketh hold
with her hands, and is in kings' palaces.
BTW, the Court is the Supreme Court, it does not have supremacy over the
Constitution.
Isaiah 33: 22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the
LORD is our king; he will save us.

One might use your logic to proclaim our laws are based on children's
fables, pagans, or eastern religions.

That would not, however, be all that logical: ...done in convention by
the unaminous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of
September in the Year of our Lord one thousand severn hundred and Eighty
seven.....
constitution for the United States of America.
(For the Historically challenged, the Lord referred to was not Solon,
Confuscius, children's fables, pagans, or eastern religiouns.

**************************************************************************
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have
the
Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
***************************************************************************

It is not the 10 Commandments, but a depiction of tablets with Roman
numerals on them.

Gee, wonder what they are trying to depict?
The Commandments themselves don't appear. This is a

quibble, but it's an important quibble. The location is low
suggesting and easily missed, suggesting they have a lesser role.

Tee hee hee, good spin.

*************************************************************************
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall right above
where the Supreme Court judges sit a display of the Ten Commandments!
*************************************************************************
NOT SO>
These lawgivers are there: Menes,

Tee hee hee, the Founding Fathers quoted Menes a lot.

Hammurabi

Hammurabi- a corrupted form of the Law.
, Moses, Solomon,
Who started to follow the law and lost the kingdom when he didn't.

Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus, Justinian, Mohammed,
Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone,

Tee hee hee, I have read Blackstone, so did the Founding Fathers, he never
cited Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Mohammed, nor Charlemagne.
charlemagne tried to appear Christian, Augustin St. Louis (presumably the
IX) and Justinian were Christians. King John was forced to follow God's
Law against his will by the Magna Carta.

John Marshall, and Napoleon. Moses is holding blank tablets.

Too bad, sounds like some of the Supreme Court decisions like dredd Scott.
The Moses

figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver. NO 10
commandments there, look at the picture.

Good spin and Christophobia.

Photo: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/photo7.html

*************************************************************************
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings
and
Monuments in Washington, D.C.
**************************************************************************

Maybe there are. Let us see a list of them.

NOt handy, will write them down for you when I get there next.

********************************************************************
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our
Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole
of
all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for
self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern
ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the
Ten
Commandments of God."
**********************************************************************

I don't know of any Madison scholars who will say Madison said this.
What is the source?

I would look to his commentaries and Joseph Story's commentaries.

****************************************************************************
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said,
³It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation
was
founded not by religionists but by Christians ... not on religions but
on
the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
************************************************************************

Where may one find this quote? I've found references that it was
never said or written by him but is a fundie made up quote. It seems
the only place where you are able to find it is on fundie websites.

Tee hee hee, finding the quote on an atheist site is as likely as a thief
looking for a policeman.

**********************************************************************
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.
*********************************************************************

Indeed it does but prayers to God don't mean the God is the christian
god; it is likely the god of Madison who was a deist.

Tee hee hee, and YOUR proof that he was a diest? that is a good one.
I know many

students of all religions who pray for divine assistance during
finals. I think there is a parallel to why prayer starts sessions of
congress.

Sure is, it is a Christian nation.

ENding with some of Madison's words, note I GIVE THE SOURCE:

"
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society?

OK, he has a distrust of the church, but churchanity is not Christianity.
In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual

tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. "

As a Christian, I would agree, the Founding Fathers were skeptical of the
church, they were not skeptical of Christianity and the 10 commandments
are still the basis of English common law. What is your point?

[Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the
General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

HD

User: "HoundDog"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	12 Dec 2003 11:55:46 AM

(Michael) wrote in message news:<mikeburt-1112032253380001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312101716.27161e22@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

{SNIP}

The Moses

figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver. NO 10
commandments there, look at the picture.

Good spin and Christophobia.

Was Moses a Christian?

Photo: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/photo7.html

****************************************************************************
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said,
³It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation
was
founded not by religionists but by Christians ... not on religions but
on
the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
************************************************************************

Where may one find this quote? I've found references that it was
never said or written by him but is a fundie made up quote. It seems
the only place where you are able to find it is on fundie websites.

Tee hee hee, finding the quote on an atheist site is as likely as a thief
looking for a policeman.

I did not find this quote anywhere; so where did you find it, I ask
again.

Sure is, it is a Christian nation.

Wishfull thinking, what about the non christians are they to be
stripped of their rights in your view?

ENding with some of Madison's words, note I GIVE THE SOURCE:

"
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society?

OK, he has a distrust of the church, but churchanity is not Christianity.

In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?
HD
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	12 Dec 2003 03:42:11 PM

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1112032253380001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312101716.27161e22@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

{SNIP}

The Moses

figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver. NO 10
commandments there, look at the picture.

Good spin and Christophobia.

Was Moses a Christian?

Yes, he certainly wasn't Jewish and did not believe in the teachings of
the Talmud. Scripture provides that he is an Israelite, it does not
indicate that he nor any of the other Israelites were Jewish prior to the
exile of Judea (not Israel) to Babylon. The Christian faith began in the
Garden of Eden, not after the cross for the Word was from the beginning.
The Jewish faith was created in Babylon centuries later than Moses, I
guess that is why they call it the Babylonian Talmud, the teachings of
which Christ rejected in the Temple. BTW, He affirmed the Israelite
cannon of Moses, but rejected the 'Jewish' teachings of what later became
called the Talmud by the Pharisees.

Photo: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/photo7.html

****************************************************************************

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said,
³It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation
was
founded not by religionists but by Christians ... not on religions but
on
the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
************************************************************************

Where may one find this quote? I've found references that it was
never said or written by him but is a fundie made up quote. It seems
the only place where you are able to find it is on fundie websites.

Tee hee hee, finding the quote on an atheist site is as likely as a thief
looking for a policeman.

I did not find this quote anywhere; so where did you find it, I ask
again.

Gee, this one is so well known I am surprised that you can't find it. Any
good biography of Henry should list it. Will post after a review of my
library. It was part of a speech before congress and It was reviewed in
the Trinity Decision of 1892 by the Supreme Court.

Sure is, it is a Christian nation.

Wishfull thinking, what about the non christians are they to be
stripped of their rights in your view?

They aren't in my view, they have individual religious freedom which does
not strip anyone of any rights, that does not mean that they can impose
their alien religious beliefs on a Christian nation and shove them down
the throats of others by denying the religious freedom of the nation.
America is a nation made up of people from many cultures, but America is
not multicultural. That is a fallacy of the radical religious left.

ENding with some of Madison's words, note I GIVE THE SOURCE:

"
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society?

OK, he has a distrust of the church, but churchanity is not Christianity.

In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Tee hee hee, all of them, read Scripture, Blackstone, Montisque, and Locke
as the Founding Fathers did who ratified the Constitution in the year of
their Lord, 1787. Amazon.com carries books on the common law if you are
not familiar with it.
.

User: "HoundDog"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	17 Dec 2003 07:32:22 PM

(Michael) wrote in message news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

Interesting you mention Blackstone, Jeffersons comments on why
Blackstone suggests a connection between common law and the bible is
found in the research he did on the subject, and I quote him in part
as follows:
Thomas Jefferson, writing about the history of common law in his
letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:
""For we know that the common law is that system of law which was
introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered
from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to
the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common
law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth
century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century;
the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having
taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here
then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law
was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that
period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it
to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far
alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But
none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If,
therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of
Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part
of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if,
having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we
are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely
affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth)
that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that
'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and
Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a
little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion
are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London
v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril
to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the
measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of
revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law."

Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the
beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of
Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody"
HD
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	19 Dec 2003 04:57:01 PM

In article <987f5b85.0312171732.1760b2cc@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

Of course, although this letter was written in Jefferson's later life: the
parts you took out of context are actually the views of his youth, and not
his views at this stage of his life. Most men's views change
substantially over the course of 50 years of life, as was the case here
and in comparison to other works of Jefferson in the 1814 period, even in
the Declaration of Independence in which he at about 33 uses the exact
terms and meanings of law from Blackstone as quoted later herein.
His 1814 letter to Cooper begins: ...When I was a student of the law,
now half a century ago, after getting through Coke Littleton, whose matter
cannot be abridged, I was in the habit of abridging and common-placing
what I read meriting it, and of sometimes mixing my own reflections on the
subject. I now enclose you the extract from these entries which I
promised. They were written at a time of life when I was bold in the
pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever
results they led, and bearding every authority which stood in their way.
This must be the apology, if you find the conclusions bolder than
historical facts and principles will warrant. Accept with them the
assurances of my great esteem and respect.
IOW, he agrees that his 50 year old conclusions are not entirely
consistent with historical fact and apologizes for the warrants of the
principles. Jefferson was a 'rebellious' youth, probably more
appropriately called a questioning youth. And thank God for that,
Christianity well withstands the questioning of all, expecially youth, for
it is in this questioning that he and others rejected the church, and
reformed Christianity to its Scriptural basis in the image of Christ at
the Temple. Further, his bold questioning rather than blind acceptance
made possible the rejection of the Divine Rights of the King as the George
III had failed his Divine Responsibilities. Christian common law grants
givernment the Divine Right to Rule, but it is always limited by the
Divine Responsibility to His Law, for no man is above the law, even the
king as Saul and even Soloman in his later years and Rehoaboam well
learned.
Pelple with less than Jefferson's courage would not have raised the
questions necessary for him to establish the Laws of Nature, as defined by
Blackstone, in the new American Republics.
He then proceeds with his 50 year old notes from his youth as you begin to
follow with exerpts:

""For we know that the common law is that system of law which was
introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England,

So, the Saxons had the common law, that is not surprising given common
explanations for the root of the word.
and altered

from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to
the date of Magna Charta,

Were the alterations 'progressive' or restorative? If they were
restorative or reformed, then they accentuated the common law, if they
were progressive, then they departed from the common law, the situation
that occurred at the time of King George III when Blackstone's Municipal
English law was repugnant to Revealed Law and the Law of Nature and
Nature's God, that which the Founding Fathers found repugnant and
irresponsible.
which terminates the period of the common

law. . .

What did you leave out with the ...? It was the ccurious phrase "or lex
non scripta, and commences that of the statute law." It was this statue
law (also called Maritime or Admirality law; Blackstone called it
municipal law) which the Founding Fathers threw out in returning to the
common law. When maritime or admirality law is practiced today, the
phrase often used is statue law to avoid the obvious conclusion that this
is the law, when repugnant to the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, that
the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution flatly rejected, and for
good reason.
This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth

century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century;

Gee, Jefferson was off by a mile in his early 20's, unless he is speaking
of BC instead of AD. He was a good student at William and Mary's; however,
his notes to come to these conclusions would be interesting, these and
other young Jefferson beliefs, as he later notes, were contradicted by all
the judges and writers on earth

the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having
taken place about the year 598,

St Augustine's papers indicate otherwise, at least regarding the people
of the Isles.
and that of the last about 686. Here

then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law
was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."

Having studied Jefferson at great length at the Library of Congress, his
later papers show a strong change in convictions from his twenties.

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that
period, supposed to have been lost,

Which is isn't.
it is incumbent on him to prove it

to have existed, and what were its contents.

Blackstone does it quite nicely, although Jefferson may not have realized
this until his 30's.
These were so far

alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But
none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law.

But what specifically does he mean by the phrase? There are many things
of common belief to the Founding Fathers, such as the inalienable rights
which come from God that were thought of such common knowledge that they
need not be renumerated in the Constitution which the newly formed federal
government could not take away under any Divine Responsibilities of good
government.
For some stroke of the Spirit, the Anti-Federalists raised concerns that
someday, Americans might be deceived that inalienable rights did not come
from God and could therefore be taken away by irresponsible government.
their concerns triumphed and the Bill of Rights (which do not grant any
rights, but merely demand that the bare minimum of God given inalienable
rights could not be taken away by the federal government) were added to
the Constituion four years later in 1791.
If,

therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of
Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part
of the common law, because they were not yet Christians,

And his evidence for that? Citing his own words: "[this is]..hanging on
the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's [or rather young
Tom's], or on one another, or nobody"
and if,

having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we
are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely
affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth)

Tee hee hee, isn't he saying that his opinion is contradicted by all of
the judges and writers on earth?

that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

He probably also thought at his then young age that Christianity began at
the cross; however, he personally made sure that every home in Virginia
had a copy of the Old Testament as he realized that the Old Testament is
as much Christian as the New, for Christ who is One with the Father and
was in the beginning gave the law to Moses, and Noah, and Adam.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30* I and my Father are one.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom
thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Acts :2* And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of
glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before
he dwelt in Charran,
Romans 4:2* For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to
glory; but not before God.
Galatians 3:8* And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the
heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In
thee shall all nations be blessed.
And in the Lord of America as identified in the Constituion for the United
States of America at Article Vii, America has indeed been blessed.
1Corinthians 8:6* But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are
all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all
things, and we by him
..
1John 5:7* For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the
Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that
'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and
Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a
little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion
are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London
v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril
to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the
measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of
revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law."

Blackstone, Montisque and Lock provide that basis for the Founding Fathers
while Jefferson was away in the pagan state republic of France (that
failed miserably having separated church and state so completely, it
separated France from God).

Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the
beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of
Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody"

IOW, everyone was wrong except Jefferson, but then, he didn't write the
Constitution and included natures laws in the Declaration of Independence
which meet the difination of law as defined as Blackstone which he knew
full well.
Blackstone's three categories of Law:
(a) Revealed Law: ³The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or
divine law, and they are to be found only in the Holy Scriptures.²
(b) Law of Nature: ³...when He Created man, and endued him with free
will to conduct himself in all parts of life, He laid down certain
immutable laws of human nature, whereby that free will is in some degree
regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to
discover the purport of those laws.²
( c) Municipal Law, that which is adopted by civil government, must
conform to the higher law of God: ³Upon these two foundations, the law of
nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws: that is to say,
no human law should be suffered to contradict these.²
³He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of [John]
Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty.² George
Bancroft (leading American historian in 1800s)
³John Calvin was the virtual founder of America²
Leopold von Ranke
..
.

User: "HoundDog"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	15 Dec 2003 08:30:01 PM

(Michael) wrote in message news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Nice evasion of the question.
Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations. Our law (USA)
only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed) And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.
Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Major John Cartwright states:
"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradition, at length, of
the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges
have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a part
of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced,
is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the
Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard
the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever
existed"
And if I remember gave the subject of law a bit of thought.
And since Moses seems to have borrowed most of the commandments from
the Egyptian Book of the Dead, one might conclued that if your
supposition that common law is based on the decalogue, then it really
is based mostly on Egyptian customs.
Excerpt from the Book of the Dead:
*******************************************
I have not committed murder.
I have not given the order for murder to be committed.
I have done no murder nor bid anyone to slay on my behalf. 1
I have not slain men and women
Very similar to don't kill
***************************************
I have not stolen. 1 2
I have not stolen food. 2
I have not carried away food. 2
I have not stolen anyone's land. 2
I have not committed robbery with violence. 2
I have not robbed with violence. 1
I have not taken food from a child. 2
I have not filched food from the mouth of the infant
Very similar to thou shalt not steal
****************************************************
And all the rest are there except :
The Egyptians don't worry about having only one God (neither do
Christians with the triad of father, son, and holy ghost) nor do they
keep the sabbath holy (nor do Christians as the sabbath is Saturday
but Christians observe it on Sunday.)
HD
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	16 Dec 2003 08:45:50 AM

In article <987f5b85.0312151830.65f4da39@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Nice evasion of the question.

Not a evasion at all.

Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations.

Really, how does common law predate the law given in the Garden of Eden?
Our law (USA)

only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed)

In addition, adultery and coveting are also covered, as well as the first
five recognized in prayer before congress, the Court and oaths of office.

And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.

Only if one assumes that Moses was the first to receive the law, the
Israelites weren't sitting in Egypt waiting for Moses to tell them what
they already knew.

Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Major John Cartwright states:

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradition, at length, of
the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges
have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a part
of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced,
is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the
Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard
the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever
existed"

Assuming the letter is authentic, Tom must have slept at classes. The
English common law is commonly dated to 1215 when King John singed the
Magma Carta, by the most conservative reckoning, England had been
Christian for over 900 years, or over 4 times the age of this nation.
There is evidence that the influence of Israelites in England long predate
this.

And if I remember gave the subject of law a bit of thought.

And since Moses seems to have borrowed most of the commandments from
the Egyptian Book of the Dead, one might conclued that if your
supposition that common law is based on the decalogue, then it really
is based mostly on Egyptian customs.

ONly if one assumes that God was silent before Moses, of which the
evidence is quite the contrary. The Egyptians who built the pyramids are
not the Egyptians of today, and their geanologies are recorded in
Scripture. the Egyptians were not ignorant of Elyan YHVH Elohym, there
were merely in rebellion to Him.

Excerpt from the Book of the Dead:
*******************************************
I have not committed murder.
I have not given the order for murder to be committed.
I have done no murder nor bid anyone to slay on my behalf. 1
I have not slain men and women

Very similar to don't kill
***************************************

Why wouldn't it be?

I have not stolen. 1 2
I have not stolen food. 2
I have not carried away food. 2
I have not stolen anyone's land. 2
I have not committed robbery with violence. 2
I have not robbed with violence. 1
I have not taken food from a child. 2
I have not filched food from the mouth of the infant

Very similar to thou shalt not steal
****************************************************

Why wouldn't it be?

And all the rest are there except :

The Egyptians don't worry about having only one God (neither do
Christians with the triad of father, son, and holy ghost) nor do they
keep the sabbath holy (nor do Christians as the sabbath is Saturday
but Christians observe it on Sunday.)

Tee hee hee, the Son and the Father are One with the Spirit. Christians
keep and fulfill their sabbath day of rest in their Lord, Jesus Christ,
which is every day, not just the 7th day. they are often seen worshiping
on the 8th Day of the Lord's reseruction, a day of new beginnings. The
Sabbath rest and the Lord's Day are not the same day.
Levi Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not
knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
.

User: "Tom"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	16 Dec 2003 10:10:39 AM

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612030945510001@192.168.1.55...

In article <987f5b85.0312151830.65f4da39@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Tee hee hee, all of them, read Scripture, Blackstone, Montisque, and

Locke

as the Founding Fathers did who ratified the Constitution in the year

their Lord, 1787. Amazon.com carries books on the common law if you

are

not familiar with it.

Nice evasion of the question.

Burt: Not a evasion at all.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course it is an evasion. As you are so fond of saying,
tell us with specificity and particularity where these commandments are
found in common law.

Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations.

Burt: Really, how does common law predate the law given in the Garden of

Eden?
Tom: Tee hee hee, it is really simple Burt, there were other civilizations
in the world prior to the civilizations recorded by the writers of the
bible. This has been proven by archeology. You should take your nose out of
your bible and read the real history of the world. By the way, it is not the
"Garden of Eden", it is the garden in Eden. Only biblical illiterates don't
know this.

Our law (USA)
only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed)

Burt: In addition, adultery and coveting are also covered, as well as the

first

five recognized in prayer before congress, the Court and oaths of office.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the first five aren't recognized anywhere in the laws of
the US! I don't know of any federal laws against adultery and I don't know
of any laws against coveting in the federal law. Could you point these out
to us.

And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.

Burt: Only if one assumes that Moses was the first to receive the law, the
Israelites weren't sitting in Egypt waiting for Moses to tell them what
they already knew.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Israelites already knew this? When did they learn of
it? What verse in the bible covers this? That was just for "funsies" Burt,
the real answer is that the Israelites weren't the first civilization.

Burt: Assuming the letter is authentic, Tom must have slept at classes.

The

English common law is commonly dated to 1215 when King John singed the
Magma Carta, by the most conservative reckoning, England had been
Christian for over 900 years, or over 4 times the age of this nation.
There is evidence that the influence of Israelites in England long predate
this.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the earliest substantial inroads of Christianity were
closer to 600 BCE. Small places of conversions existed before then but the
real change came from the 600's forward. You will have to give sources for
your statement that the Israelites had an influence in England long before
300 BCE. By the way the document was the "Magna Charta", not the "Magma
Carta".

Burt: ONly if one assumes that God was silent before Moses, of which the
evidence is quite the contrary.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course he was silent. Not only to the Jews but to
everyone. If you have real evidence that this isn't true then please present
it.

Burt: The Egyptians who built the pyramids are
not the Egyptians of today, and their geanologies are recorded in
Scripture. the Egyptians were not ignorant of Elyan YHVH Elohym, there
were merely in rebellion to Him.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Egyptians who built the pyramids are as much the
Egyptians of today as the Jews of that era are the Jews of today. Where do
you get this incorrect information that you spread?

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

Tom: Tee hee hee, exactly and the civilizations that predated the Israelites
all had these moral and social values that they had developed by centuries
of interactions with each other. Hammurabi's Code of Laws also predate the
laws of Moses.

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

Tom: Tee hee hee, that's right based on the interaction with their fellow
man all civilizations developed their own codes. So I guess Burt, you can
say that the laws of the US are based on the Hammurabi code!

And all the rest are there except :

The Egyptians don't worry about having only one God (neither do
Christians with the triad of father, son, and holy ghost) nor do they
keep the sabbath holy (nor do Christians as the sabbath is Saturday
but Christians observe it on Sunday.)

Burt: Tee hee hee, the Son and the Father are One with the Spirit.

Tom: Tee hee hee, yes as voted on at a council of Nicea. Some arrangement.

Burt: Christians
keep and fulfill their sabbath day of rest in their Lord, Jesus Christ,
which is every day, not just the 7th day. they are often seen worshiping
on the 8th Day of the Lord's reseruction, a day of new beginnings. The
Sabbath rest and the Lord's Day are not the same day.

Tom: Tee hee hee, yes and just why should the rest of us have to suffer your
obsolete and ignorant laws with your god being so weak that he had to rest
after creating the universe. Of course after having all of the universe flow
from his mouth I imagine his jaw was pretty tired.

Burt: Levi Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not
knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Tom: Tee hee hee, 1st Elmer 2:16 says, " be ye not an idiot and take the
bible as a literal reading".
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	16 Dec 2003 03:13:26 PM

In article <vtubk23k0is150@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612030945510001@192.168.1.55...

In article <987f5b85.0312151830.65f4da39@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Tee hee hee, all of them, read Scripture, Blackstone, Montisque, and

Locke

as the Founding Fathers did who ratified the Constitution in the year

their Lord, 1787. Amazon.com carries books on the common law if you

are

not familiar with it.

Nice evasion of the question.

Burt: Not a evasion at all.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course it is an evasion. As you are so fond of saying,
tell us with specificity and particularity where these commandments are
found in common law.

Tee hee hee, they are the common law. Amazon.com carries books on the
common law if you are not familiar with it. I would also suggest
Blackstone, as the Founding Fathers relied upon.
Blackstone defines common law as follows:
1. Revealed Law: ³The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or
divine law, and they are to be found only in the Holy Scriptures.²
2. Law of Nature: ³...when He Created man, and endued him with free will
to conduct himself in all parts of life, He laid down certain immutable
laws of human nature, whereby that free will is in some degree regulated
and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the
purport of those laws.²
3. Municipal Law, that which is adopted by civil government, must conform
to the higher law of God: ³Upon these two foundations, the law of nature
and the law of revelation, depend all human laws: that is to say, no human
law should be suffered to contradict these.²

Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations.

Burt: Really, how does common law predate the law given in the Garden of

Eden?

It doesn't, common law predates all civilizations. BTW, you are not
addressing my comments.

Tom: Tee hee hee, it is really simple Burt, there were other civilizations
in the world prior to the civilizations recorded by the writers of the
bible.

Tee hee hee, only if you buy the assumption that they predated et ha Adam.

This has been proven by archeology.

So you say, archeology has actually proven quite the opposite.
You should take your nose out of

your bible and read the real history of the world.

I did, that is why I know that you are incorrect.

By the way, it is not the
"Garden of Eden", it is the garden in Eden. Only biblical illiterates don't
know this.

Tee hee hee, Genesis 2:8* And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in
Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. The word translated
'in Eden' is the Hebrew word Nde.

Our law (USA)
only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed)

Burt: In addition, adultery and coveting are also covered, as well as the

first

five recognized in prayer before congress, the Court and oaths of office.

Tee hee hee, coveting is not in reference to coveting federal law. check
out a federal reserve note in your pocket, it says in God We Trust. Your
atheism is showing.

And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.

Burt: Only if one assumes that Moses was the first to receive the law, the
Israelites weren't sitting in Egypt waiting for Moses to tell them what
they already knew.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Israelites already knew this? When did they learn of
it?

From their fathers.

What verse in the bible covers this?

Many Try Exodus 1: 1* But the midwives feared God [Hebrew yare, to
revere], and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the
men children alive.
That was just for "funsies" Burt,

the real answer is that the Israelites weren't the first civilization.

Of course not, I never said that Israel was the first, they are
descendants of Eber, there were several civilizations before that. That
was not the point.

Burt: Assuming the letter is authentic, Tom must have slept at classes.

The

Tom: Tee hee hee, the earliest substantial inroads of Christianity were
closer to 600 BCE.

That would be 900 years earlier than I submitted as a conservative estimate.
Small places of conversions existed before then but the

real change came from the 600's forward. You will have to give sources for
your statement that the Israelites had an influence in England long before
300 BCE. By the way the document was the "Magna Charta", not the "Magma
Carta".

Before 300 BC, (I cited 300 AD assuming the Roman convention, St Augustine
cited Christinity haveing been introduced centuries before his mission)
they were not called Christians, they were called Druids and followed the
Israelite practices.

Burt: ONly if one assumes that God was silent before Moses, of which the
evidence is quite the contrary.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course he was silent. Not only to the Jews but to
everyone. If you have real evidence that this isn't true then please present
it.

Tee hee hee, Moses wasn't Jewish, the Jewish faith wasn't crated until
exile in Babylon. Moses is never called a Jew in Scripture.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Egyptians who built the pyramids are as much the
Egyptians of today as the Jews of that era are the Jews of today. Where do
you get this incorrect information that you spread?

Tee hee hee, today's 'Egyptians' are Arabic. there were no Jews in that
era. Scripture refers to them as the children of Israel, not the sons of
Judah.

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

Of course, it came in the corruption of Babel, long before Eber. What is
your point?

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

No, I can't, and neither can you.

And all the rest are there except :

Burt: Tee hee hee, the Son and the Father are One with the Spirit.

Tom: Tee hee hee, yes as voted on at a council of Nicea. Some arrangement.

Tee hee hee, it was a simple vote to affirm the Word of God and the Word
of their Lord and Saviour.

Tee hee hee. Levi 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not
knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Burt: Levi Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not
knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Tom: Tee hee hee, 1st Elmer 2:16 says, " be ye not an idiot and take the
bible as a literal reading".

Now, you have proven that you are making it us as you go along.
2Peter 3:3* Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
.

User: "Tom"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	16 Dec 2003 04:32:59 PM

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612031613270001@192.168.1.55...

In article <vtubk23k0is150@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612030945510001@192.168.1.55...

In article <987f5b85.0312151830.65f4da39@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Tee hee hee, all of them, read Scripture, Blackstone, Montisque,

and

Locke

as the Founding Fathers did who ratified the Constitution in the

year

their Lord, 1787. Amazon.com carries books on the common law if

you

are

not familiar with it.

Nice evasion of the question.

Burt: Not a evasion at all.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course it is an evasion. As you are so fond of

saying,

tell us with specificity and particularity where these commandments are
found in common law.

Burt: Tee hee hee, they are the common law. Amazon.com carries books on the
common law if you are not familiar with it. I would also suggest
Blackstone, as the Founding Fathers relied upon.

Blackstone defines common law as follows:

1. Revealed Law: ³The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or
divine law, and they are to be found only in the Holy Scriptures.²

2. Law of Nature: ³...when He Created man, and endued him with free will
to conduct himself in all parts of life, He laid down certain immutable
laws of human nature, whereby that free will is in some degree regulated
and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the
purport of those laws.²

3. Municipal Law, that which is adopted by civil government, must conform
to the higher law of God: ³Upon these two foundations, the law of nature
and the law of revelation, depend all human laws: that is to say, no human
law should be suffered to contradict these.²

Tom: Tee hee hee, you know this is really a very simple question and I don't
give a damn what common law says, the ***** question to you was "which
commandments are found in common law". It isn't a trick question nor is it
something that should require the purchase of books by me. Either you know
the f**king answer or you don't, it is just that simple :-).

Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations.

Burt: Really, how does common law predate the law given in the Garden

Eden?

Burt: It doesn't, common law predates all civilizations. BTW, you are not
addressing my comments.

Tom: Tee hee hee, by the way you little *****, you're changing the order of my
post. Can you answer the post as I made it or do you need to cheat or lie to
obtain your tainted result? I did answer your question, you just shifted the
answer.

Tom: Tee hee hee, it is really simple Burt, there were other

civilizations

in the world prior to the civilizations recorded by the writers of the
bible.

Burt: Tee hee hee, only if you buy the assumption that they predated et ha

Adam.
Tom: Tee hee hee, you mean the assumption that all of the civilized world,
including Christians make, that "et ha Adam" was not the first man. Yes,
those assumptions you little *****.

This has been proven by archeology.

Burt: So you say, archeology has actually proven quite the opposite.

Tom: Tee hee hee, sorry my stupid fundie friend, all mainline archeology
books say this. You never did get "The Bible Unearthed" did you, you
ignorant *****?

You should take your nose out of

your bible and read the real history of the world.

Burt: I did, that is why I know that you are incorrect.

Tom: Tee hee hee, prove it, you little *****.

By the way, it is not the
"Garden of Eden", it is the garden in Eden. Only biblical illiterates

don't

know this.

Burt: Tee hee hee, Genesis 2:8* And the LORD God planted a garden eastward

Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. The word translated
'in Eden' is the Hebrew word Nde.

Tom: Tee hee hee, it really doesn't make a ***** bit of difference how
the word Eden is translated, the fact is he put the garden IN Eden. What did
you think I said, you ignorant moron?? Can you read for comprehension? Read
what I said, if you are able!

Our law (USA)
only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed)

Burt: In addition, adultery and coveting are also covered, as well as

the

first

five recognized in prayer before congress, the Court and oaths of

office.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the first five aren't recognized anywhere in the laws

the US! I don't know of any federal laws against adultery and I don't

know

of any laws against coveting in the federal law. Could you point these

out

to us.

Burt: Tee hee hee, coveting is not in reference to coveting federal law.

check

out a federal reserve note in your pocket, it says in God We Trust. Your
atheism is showing.

Tom: Tee hee hee, Jesus Christ are you stupid! You are as dumb as a fence
post! Let's try this slowly for you, can you point out to me where the first
five are in federal law. It doesn't make any ***** difference what our
currency shows. Either put up or shut up.

And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.

Burt: Only if one assumes that Moses was the first to receive the law,

the

Israelites weren't sitting in Egypt waiting for Moses to tell them

what

they already knew.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Israelites already knew this? When did they learn

it?

Burt: From their fathers.

Tom: So then there was absolutely no need for "god" to give the ten or was
it 15 commandments was there. So why did he do this?

What verse in the bible covers this?

Burt: Many Try Exodus 1: 1* But the midwives feared God [Hebrew yare, to
revere], and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the
men children alive.

Tom: Tee hee hee, so this shows they knew the law???? God, do you try to
twist the truth. You really are a worthless sack of *****, aren't you Burt?

That was just for "funsies" Burt,

the real answer is that the Israelites weren't the first civilization.

Burt: Of course not, I never said that Israel was the first, they are
descendants of Eber, there were several civilizations before that. That
was not the point.

Tom: Tee hee, the point is that the history in the bible does not include
these many civilizations, does it Burt or maybe et ha totay says something
else.

Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Major John Cartwright states:

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradition, at length,

the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges
have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a

part

of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have

adduced,

is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the
Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet

heard

the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had

ever

existed"

Burt: Assuming the letter is authentic, Tom must have slept at classes.

The

predate

this.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the earliest substantial inroads of Christianity were
closer to 600 BCE.

Burt: That would be 900 years earlier than I submitted as a conservative
estimate.

Tom: Tee hee hee, I see your problem you simple *****! You can't read your
own ***** writing. The way you constructed your sentence you showed the
900 years as dating from 1215. Perhaps you need to return to school to learn
to write for clarity.

Small places of conversions existed before then but the

real change came from the 600's forward. You will have to give sources

for

your statement that the Israelites had an influence in England long

before

300 BCE. By the way the document was the "Magna Charta", not the "Magma
Carta".

Burt: Before 300 BC, (I cited 300 AD assuming the Roman convention, St
Augustine
cited Christinity haveing been introduced centuries before his mission)
they were not called Christians, they were called Druids and followed the
Israelite practices.

Tom: Tee hee hee, what a fool you are. Since the Druids existed long
before Jeebus I assume that next you will say that they were the first
Christians. You need to study the history of the Druids, it is quote
interesting.

really

is based mostly on Egyptian customs.

Burt: ONly if one assumes that God was silent before Moses, of which

the

evidence is quite the contrary.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course he was silent. Not only to the Jews but to
everyone. If you have real evidence that this isn't true then please

present

it.

Burt: Tee hee hee, Moses wasn't Jewish, the Jewish faith wasn't crated

until

exile in Babylon. Moses is never called a Jew in Scripture.

Tom: Tee hee hee, you are avoided the point little *****, do you have evidence
that god spoke to anyone?

Burt: The Egyptians who built the pyramids are
not the Egyptians of today, and their geanologies are recorded in
Scripture. the Egyptians were not ignorant of Elyan YHVH Elohym,

there

were merely in rebellion to Him.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Egyptians who built the pyramids are as much the
Egyptians of today as the Jews of that era are the Jews of today. Where

you get this incorrect information that you spread?

Burt: Tee hee hee, today's 'Egyptians' are Arabic. there were no Jews in

that

era. Scripture refers to them as the children of Israel, not the sons of
Judah.

Tom: Tee hee hee, they might have been called a lot of things but in modern
day language we refer to the Egyptians building the pyramids. Now, semantics
aside, do you have any evidence whatsoever that these people are not the
forefathers of the inhabitants of modern day Egypt? You don't ? I didn't
think so.

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

Tom: Tee hee hee, exactly and the civilizations that predated the

Israelites

all had these moral and social values that they had developed by

centuries

of interactions with each other. Hammurabi's Code of Laws also predate

the

laws of Moses.

Burt: Of course, it came in the corruption of Babel, long before Eber.

What is

your point?

Tom: Tee hee hee, my point is that the laws of civilized society did not
originate with the so-called ten commandments supposedly handed down to
Moses. The commandments given to Moses were plagiarized from earlier
civilizations.

Burt: Why wouldn't it be?

Tom: Tee hee hee, that's right based on the interaction with their

fellow

man all civilizations developed their own codes. So I guess Burt, you

can

say that the laws of the US are based on the Hammurabi code!

Burt: No, I can't, and neither can you.

Tom: Tee hee hee, why not little "god boy"? They are as much a part of our
law today as the 10 or 15 commandments given by "god".

And all the rest are there except :

The Egyptians don't worry about having only one God (neither do
Christians with the triad of father, son, and holy ghost) nor do

they

keep the sabbath holy (nor do Christians as the sabbath is Saturday
but Christians observe it on Sunday.)

Burt: Tee hee hee, the Son and the Father are One with the Spirit.

Tom: Tee hee hee, yes as voted on at a council of Nicea. Some

arrangement.

Burt: Tee hee hee, it was a simple vote to affirm the Word of God and the

Word

of their Lord and Saviour.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the vote wasn't so simple for one thing, you stupid *****.
For another since when did the "wordagod" need affirming by humans? After
all he is "god" isn't he? I always like that word "savior". It was so
popular that many gods sent sons and daughters to the world to "save" us. In
the case of the fool god of the bible we needed to be saved from the
stupidity of "god" himself. Sheesh, what a damn fairy tale.

Burt: Christians
keep and fulfill their sabbath day of rest in their Lord, Jesus

Christ,

which is every day, not just the 7th day. they are often seen

worshiping

on the 8th Day of the Lord's reseruction, a day of new beginnings.

The

Sabbath rest and the Lord's Day are not the same day.

Tom: Tee hee hee, yes and just why should the rest of us have to suffer

your

obsolete and ignorant laws with your god being so weak that he had to

rest

after creating the universe. Of course after having all of the universe

flow

from his mouth I imagine his jaw was pretty tired.

Burt: Tee hee hee. Levi 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err,

not

knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Tom: Tee hee hee, Tom 3: 24- the ***** bible says "god " rested so he
must have been tired. Plain fact you babbling imbecile.

Burt: Levi Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err,

not

knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Tom: Tee hee hee, 1st Elmer 2:16 says, " be ye not an idiot and take the
bible as a literal reading".

Burt: Now, you have proven that you are making it us as you go along.

Tom: Tee hee hee, damn boy, you weren't taking that seriously were you?
You really are in bad shape.

Burt: 2Peter 3:3* Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last

days

scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Tom: Tee hee hee, ah yes, the old scoffers verse. Yes, according to Jeebus
we have been in the last days for 2,000 years now. You can read that can't
you, you imbecilic *****?
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Debunking Michael (mikeburt@ix.netcom.com)	17 Dec 2003 08:38:47 AM

In article <vtv20v6pbom07@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612031613270001@192.168.1.55...

In article <vtubk23k0is150@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-1612030945510001@192.168.1.55...

In article <987f5b85.0312151830.65f4da39@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

mikeburt@ix.netcom.com (Michael) wrote in message

news:<mikeburt-1212031642110001@192.168.1.55>...

In article <987f5b85.0312120955.20474c1d@posting.google.com>,
hounddog111@elvis.com (HoundDog) wrote:

SNIP

Which commandments are to be found in this common law?

Tee hee hee, all of them, read Scripture, Blackstone, Montisque,

and

Locke

as the Founding Fathers did who ratified the Constitution in the

year

their Lord, 1787. Amazon.com carries books on the common law if

you

are

not familiar with it.

Nice evasion of the question.

Burt: Not a evasion at all.

Tom: Tee hee hee, of course it is an evasion. As you are so fond of

saying,

tell us with specificity and particularity where these commandments are
found in common law.

Tee hee hee hee, the answer was and is all of them. Interesting, but not
surprising, that you don't give a damn what the law says.

Common law comes from many sources some predating christianity and
includes certain values common to all civilizations.

Burt: Really, how does common law predate the law given in the Garden

Eden?

Burt: It doesn't, common law predates all civilizations. BTW, you are not
addressing my comments.

Tee hee hee, thanks for the compliment, Tom. No I didn't, check the
history of the posings.

Tom: Tee hee hee, it is really simple Burt, there were other

civilizations

in the world prior to the civilizations recorded by the writers of the
bible.

Burt: Tee hee hee, only if you buy the assumption that they predated et ha

Adam.

Tom: Tee hee hee, you mean the assumption that all of the civilized world,
including Christians make, that "et ha Adam" was not the first man. Yes,
those assumptions you little *****.

Tee hee hee, et ha Adam wasn't the first man, the first men were adam.

This has been proven by archeology.

Burt: So you say, archeology has actually proven quite the opposite.

Tom: Tee hee hee, sorry my stupid fundie friend, all mainline archeology
books say this. You never did get "The Bible Unearthed" did you, you
ignorant *****?

Tee hee hee, thanks for the compliment and the reference to main line
Christophobic bible Unearthed mythology.

You should take your nose out of

your bible and read the real history of the world.

Burt: I did, that is why I know that you are incorrect.

Tom: Tee hee hee, prove it, you little *****.

Tee hee hee, thanks for the compliment, Tom. Merry Christmas.

By the way, it is not the
"Garden of Eden", it is the garden in Eden. Only biblical illiterates

don't

know this.

Burt: Tee hee hee, Genesis 2:8* And the LORD God planted a garden eastward

Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. The word translated
'in Eden' is the Hebrew word Nde.

Tee hee hee, you failed to understand the Hebrew, but thanks for the
compliment again.

Our law (USA)
only contains 2 or 3 of the commandments: dont kill, dont steal and
dont lie in court (other lies seem to be not addressed)

Burt: In addition, adultery and coveting are also covered, as well as

the

first

five recognized in prayer before congress, the Court and oaths of

office.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the first five aren't recognized anywhere in the laws

the US! I don't know of any federal laws against adultery and I don't

know

of any laws against coveting in the federal law. Could you point these

out

to us.

Burt: Tee hee hee, coveting is not in reference to coveting federal law.

check

out a federal reserve note in your pocket, it says in God We Trust. Your
atheism is showing.

The first five are well documented by the reference to Jesus Christ in
article 7 of the Constitution for the united States of America.

And the first
two appear in civilizations the predate Moses.

Burt: Only if one assumes that Moses was the first to receive the law,

the

Israelites weren't sitting in Egypt waiting for Moses to tell them

what

they already knew.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the Israelites already knew this? When did they learn

it?

Burt: From their fathers.

Tom: So then there was absolutely no need for "god" to give the ten or was
it 15 commandments was there. So why did he do this?

In His Love and Longsuffering for you, for the new beginnings after the
failure of the dispensation of innocence, conscious, and human government.

What verse in the bible covers this?

Burt: Many Try Exodus 1: 1* But the midwives feared God [Hebrew yare, to
revere], and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the
men children alive.

Tom: Tee hee hee, so this shows they knew the law???? God, do you try to
twist the truth. You really are a worthless sack of *****, aren't you Burt?

Tee hee hee, no, but thanks for the compliment, they keep getting better
and better. I treasure your compliments Tom, Merry Christmas.

That was just for "funsies" Burt,

the real answer is that the Israelites weren't the first civilization.

Burt: Of course not, I never said that Israel was the first, they are
descendants of Eber, there were several civilizations before that. That
was not the point.

Tom: Tee hee, the point is that the history in the bible does not include
these many civilizations, does it Burt or maybe et ha totay says something
else.

Tee hee hee, actually they do, only the biblically illiterate seem to be
confused. Israel was born in the adamah of Egypt when the pyramids were
over a thousand years old, and the sphinx even older. The Great Pyramid
was built during the time of Enoch. But the knowlege of Elyan YHVH Elohym
as handed down from the first Melchizadok was not new to Israel and
certainly not the founders of the Old Kingdom.

Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Major John Cartwright states:

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradition, at length,

the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges
have usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a

part

of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have

adduced,

is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the
Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet

heard

the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had

ever

existed"

Burt: Assuming the letter is authentic, Tom must have slept at classes.

The

predate

this.

Tom: Tee hee hee, the earliest substantial inroads of Christianity were
closer to 600 BCE.

Burt: That would be 900 years earlier than I submitted as a conservative
estimate.

Tom: Tee hee hee, I see your problem you simple *****! You can't read your
own ***** writing. The way you constructe your sentence you showed the
900 years as dating from 1215. Perhaps you need to return to school to learn
to write for clarity.

Tee hee hee, 1215 AD less 900 years is 315 AD, not 300 BC as you
erronously did the math. I said that even using the conservative Roman
assumption, St Augustine brought Christianity (which was already there) in
300 AD. BTW, thanks for the compliment, Merry Christmas

Small places of conversions existed before then but the

real change came from the 600's forward. You will have to give sources

for

your statement that the Israelites had an influence in England long

before

300 BCE. By the way the document was the "Magna Charta", not the "Magma
Carta".

Tee hee hee, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God. Christians existed long before the cross, even
unto the days of ha Adam. Christians were first called Christian in
Antioch, but that was only the beginning of the Name, not the covenant.
I have studied the history of the Druids, both the early ones who
embrassed the Old Covenant and the few remaining ones after most accepted
the New Covenant.

really

is based mostly on Egyptian customs.

Burt: ONly if one assumes that God was silent before Moses, of which

the

evidence is quite the contrar