Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins



 Religions > Bible > Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 1

1

 
Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Sound of Trumpet"
Date: 24 Jan 2007 07:53:35 AM
Object: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts
Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")
Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor
Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger
Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.
This year, he has been on the road throughout the UK and the US,
appearing on talk shows and news interviews. He had two hours of
prime-time television on the UK's Channel 4 network in January 2006.
In these programs (entitled The Root of All Evil?), Dawkins sought to
persuade his audience of the importance of his case-that not only
should his audience not believe in God, but they should actively oppose
any form of religion. (I reviewed these programs previously.) It was
not only evangelical Christians who were critical of the programs.
Writing in The Guardian, a left-leaning UK newspaper not noted for its
support of creationists, Madeleine Bunting described the documentaries
as "intellectually lazy polemic."1
With the publication of his new book, The God Delusion, we now have an
expanded version of his atheist manifesto. One would have hoped that he
would have taken the opportunity to present a more intellectually
rigorous case. Indeed, some may have been afraid of opening the book,
in case the sheer weight of evidence might have destroyed their faith.
For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge-but sadly I was to be disappointed. The book suffers from
the same intellectual laziness as the television programs.
Dawkins' arguments, far from having intellectual clout, mostly fall
back on, "The argument will be so familiar, I needn't document it
further." Dawkins' paucity of argument is best illustrated by his
ignorance of Scripture and by his faulty logic.
Ignorance of Scripture
Although The God Delusion is ostensibly about all religions, in
practice it is about Christianity-and evangelical Christianity in
particular is the focus of Dawkins' attacks. In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible. This is
unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on the Bible reveals
that he has not approached it with an open mind.
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character
in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice. He goes on to make
several more specific accusations about the character of God. Most of
his accusations are unsubstantiated. Some are due to Dawkins' own
presuppositions about what is right and wrong (for example, his
accusation that God is "homophobic"), some are due to his failure
to have read the history leading up to particular events, and some are
just plain wrong. That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible. One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."
We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.
The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status is
minimal. (p. 92)
Some of the most striking evidence is not immediately obvious in
English translation, but would have stood out like a sore thumb to
contemporaries. One of the clearest of the many times Jesus claimed to
be God is His use of the divine name, "I AM."
This divine name was told to Moses, when he met with God (who appeared
as a burning bush).
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you
shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'."
(Exodus 3:14)
The Hebrew word translated here as I AM is often transliterated into
English as YHWH. The Name is usually translated as LORD, with four
capital letters.
Jesus used the style "I am ... " very frequently, most notably in
John 10.
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
Apart from the fact that God is frequently referred to as the Shepherd,
the people listening to Jesus would have been very familiar with the
words of Psalm 23.
The LORD is my shepherd. (Psalm 23:1)
Remembering that the word LORD is basically the same as I AM, the
people listening to Jesus were in no doubt that He was claiming to be
God. This is not a code, or an obscure point. Jesus knew that His words
were reminiscent of Psalm 23 and so did the people. This is why in John
10:31, the people had picked up stones and were ready to stone Jesus,
accusing Him of blasphemy. Jesus' claim to be divine was obvious to
them.
Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.
In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from David.
(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary. Thus Jesus traces back an
actual blood relationship, through Mary to David, via David's son
Nathan. Jesus also traces an adoptive relationship through his father
Joseph, through the kings, to David, via David's son Solomon (in
Matthew 1). Thus both Joseph and Mary are descended from David, but
Jesus' bloodline is only through Mary-He truly is the "seed of
the woman" prophesied in Genesis 3:15. However, Jesus could inherit
from Joseph, even if He was not a blood descendent. Therefore,
Joseph's lineage is important, because, through Joseph, Jesus
inherits the kingship. None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.
Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks. Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him. Given that history is usually
written by the victors, it is noteworthy that the Bible contains
unflattering accounts of the transgressions of His people. This is
evidence in support of the truthfulness of Scripture.
Poor logic
It must also be said that Dawkins' arguments show surprisingly poor
logic. Examine this extraordinary sentence:
Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in
general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament)
as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall
not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. (p.
97)
Look first at the use of the word "probably" in "Although Jesus
probably existed." Why is Dawkins doubting this fact? There is no
good reason to question that Jesus existed. It is illogical to add the
word "probably."
Look next at the use of the word "reputable." What is a
"reputable biblical scholar"? The test of reputation has been left
undone by Dawkins, but presumably, a "reputable biblical scholar"
is one who agrees with Dawkins' attempts to rubbish the Bible. Logic
would require defining this term. Such people can be found, though
whether the adjective "reputable" is appropriate for such people is
a matter of opinion. We define a "reputable biblical scholar" as
one who at least approaches the Bible with respect, preferably
believing it to be the inspired, inerrant and authoritative word of
God, from the very first verse.
Thirdly, why is it "obvious" that the Old Testament should not be
regarded as reliable? He has clearly not read detailed apologetics of
Scriptural inerrancy, such as that provided by Brian Edwards in his
masterly book, Nothing But The Truth. That is again down to his
presupposition-that evolution is true, therefore Genesis is wrong,
therefore evolution is true. Merely making a statement, or using the
word "obvious," does not make a statement true! Just from these
three points, we see that there is no logical reason given by Dawkins
for rejecting the use of the Bible as evidence.
Articles on the use of logic are easy to find on the website. An
important element in the use of logic is to recognise logical
fallacies. Dawkins has committed several of these.
Circular reasoning
This fallacy occurs when your presupposition is actually what you wish
to prove. Look at this example:
Creative intelligences, being evolved, necessarily arrive late in the
universe, and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it. (p. 31)
The logical fallacy is breathtaking. Evolution is first assumed, in
order to prove that evolution is true rather than intelligent design:
"creative intelligences, being evolved ... ." It is Dawkins'
presupposition that all creative intelligences have evolved. It is an
idea not supported by, for example, information science.
Ad hominem
This sort of fallacy involves attacking the opponent instead of the
argument. In the UK, this is referred to as "playing the man instead
of the ball"-a soccer reference, implying that the tackler has
deliberately aimed to kick his opponent, rather than attempting to kick
the ball.
There are several examples of this, such as a particularly nasty attack
on a schoolteacher, who happens to be a creationist. Notice, on page
95, how Dawkins describes certain American educational establishments:
He moved up the hierarchy of American universities, from rock bottom at
the "Moody Bible Institute", through Wheaton College (a little bit
higher on the scale, but still the alma mater of Billy Graham) to
Princeton in the world-beating class at the top. (p. 95)
Why are the three institutions arranged hierarchically? What is the
basis for Dawkins' assessment of standards at each place? He
doesn't say, but we assume that it has to do with belief in the
Bible. Why is it implied that, because they number Billy Graham among
their alumni, this is a negative for Wheaton College? [Editor's note:
It is ironic that Dawkins would have a problem with Wheaton College,
since it does not adhere to a plain interpretation of Genesis.]
Straw men
The well-known "straw man" logical fallacy occurs when the debater
misrepresents (often by oversimplifying) his or her opponent's
position for them, then argues against this invented position, rather
than against the actual arguments of the opponent. An example of this
is seen in the mocking tone used as he attempts to dismiss arguments
based on intelligent design.
I [insert own name] am personally unable to think of any way in which
[insert biological phenomenon] could have been built up step by step.
Therefore it is irreducibly complex. That means it is designed.
Although Dawkins uses this argument frequently, it is a complete
misrepresentation of the intelligent design position. A biological
mechanism is not labeled as irreducibly complex because it is
complicated and the labeler cannot think how it could have evolved. It
is so labeled because it can be shown that it is not possible for it to
have evolved.
Inconsistency
It is noteworthy that Dawkins' arguments are very inconsistent. For
example, Dawkins frequently returns to a criticism of the so-called
"God of the gaps" approach that uses the supernatural to explain
what science cannot currently explain. Compare that attitude with his
own, on page 132, where he comments on gaps in evolutionary knowledge:
A lot more work needs to be done, of course, and I'm sure it will be.
In Dawkins' view, it is inappropriate for a scientist to appeal to
the Creator to make a scientific explanation, even if that explanation
is logically sound. On the other hand, Dawkins writes as though it is
perfectly acceptable, when faced with dilemmas that evolution cannot
explain, to suppose that an evolutionary scientist will have a
naturalistic answer someday, even if the science is consistent with a
biblical approach. Such double standards allow Dawkins to self-justify
poor logic, while refusing to acknowledge the strength of those who
oppose him.
Conclusion
Christians have nothing to fear from The God Delusion. Far from being a
reasoned argument for atheism, it is a rant. It would be appropriate
for Christians to be aware of the principal arguments of the book, and
how they are countered. Maybe one day an atheistic book will emerge
that has more intellectual rigour, but even an intellectually rigorous
apology for atheism would not concern us for God is a God of wisdom and
reason. Time and again we find that a belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture is not just a doctrinal statement, it is an intellectually
satisfying position to take. But Dawkins' new book is weak, even by
atheist standards. We note that Dawkins is now planning to send atheist
material to government schools in the UK. That might be a good
opportunity for British school pupils to exercise their critical
thinking!
Reference
Madeleine Bunting, "No wonder atheists are angry," The Guardian,
January 7, 2006.
.

User: "Ghod"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 04:28:57 PM
"Stupid little Crumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> in an act of
onanism shot this blank
news:1169646815.716119.296440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor

Paul Taylor is a sick *****.

For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge

What a funny boy. Fastening the velcro closures on his shoes is an
intellectual challenge for him.

Ignorance of Scripture

Yup, the silly ***** has this in spades.

In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible.

What a loser. He knows Dawkins is far ahead of him, so he makes this
pathetic attempt to convince us that a non-starter like himself could
be the winner.

This is unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on
the Bible reveals that he has not approached it with an open mind.

Ah, yes, that vaunted xian "open mind".......the sort that echoes
"mind like a sieve".

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant

character

in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice.

Poor, pathetic Paul. Unlike Paul, Richard Dawkins has read the bible,
and understands it.

That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible.

1. Not credible: that cannot be believed; beyond belief.
Fair enough, only a cretin would place any credence upon this claim.

One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

I'd like to know what this cretin thinks of himself.....I bet he
thinks he's "wise".

We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.

The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status

is

minimal. (p. 92)

[snipped all the lame losercrap]

None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.

Does this guy write comedy material, or what? He can't even find ONE
fucking thing to back his claim, but he still provides paragraph after
paragraph about his delusions....I mean, Jebus as Popeye? Come on!
Even funnier, he claims that the "code" he "decyphered" isn't a code!
Typical xian, compartmentalizes to an extreme degree, and can make
conflicting statements in the same paragraph without knowing it, due
to cognitive dissonance.

Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.

In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from

David.

(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as
was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of
Heli,........etc, etc, all the way back to Ghod.
I wonder how this silly fucker reconciles this verse with his claim?
I'd really like to know how he got the idea that this is _Mary's_
genealogy!

Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks.

Is that what Dawkins _says_? Or is this merely dipshit's
interpretation? I haven't read the book yet, but Judges 19, taken out
of context (which is what fuckwit is doing) doesn't imply anything
like that. On the other hand, if you read the whole fucking thing
(tough for you illiterate xian fucks), it quite clearly shows that the
god of the israelites depicted as being all in favor of the monstrous
slaughter of the Benjaminites....and the ONLY reason the fucks didn't
finish the job, was because in their superstition, they couldn't live
with the idea that they wiped out one of their own tribes utterly.

Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him.

Ah, yes.....reject? No, the story shows his faithful followers
slaughtering each other!!
Well, I've got to head home now, but this has been pretty amusing.
Strumpet, thanks for providing the entertainment, you *****!
.

User: "William December Starr"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 28 Jan 2007 07:52:26 PM
In article <1169646815.716119.296440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> said:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts

Originally posted in Free Republic and then splatted all over
Usenet by Trumpet? Wow, I can smell the stupid already!
--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>
.

User: "Spirit-Person Incarnate"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 04:03:53 PM
On 24 Jan 2007, "Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts
Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")
Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor
Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger

Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.

This year, he has been on the road throughout the UK and the US,
appearing on talk shows and news interviews. He had two hours of
prime-time television on the UK's Channel 4 network in January 2006.
In these programs (entitled The Root of All Evil?), Dawkins sought to
persuade his audience of the importance of his case-that not only
should his audience not believe in God, but they should actively oppose
any form of religion. (I reviewed these programs previously.) It was
not only evangelical Christians who were critical of the programs.
Writing in The Guardian, a left-leaning UK newspaper not noted for its
support of creationists, Madeleine Bunting described the documentaries
as "intellectually lazy polemic."1

With the publication of his new book, The God Delusion, we now have an
expanded version of his atheist manifesto. One would have hoped that he
would have taken the opportunity to present a more intellectually
rigorous case. Indeed, some may have been afraid of opening the book,
in case the sheer weight of evidence might have destroyed their faith.
For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge-but sadly I was to be disappointed. The book suffers from
the same intellectual laziness as the television programs.

Dawkins' arguments, far from having intellectual clout, mostly fall
back on, "The argument will be so familiar, I needn't document it
further." Dawkins' paucity of argument is best illustrated by his
ignorance of Scripture and by his faulty logic.

Ignorance of Scripture

Although The God Delusion is ostensibly about all religions, in
practice it is about Christianity-and evangelical Christianity in
particular is the focus of Dawkins' attacks. In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible. This is
unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on the Bible reveals
that he has not approached it with an open mind.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character
in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice. He goes on to make
several more specific accusations about the character of God. Most of
his accusations are unsubstantiated. Some are due to Dawkins' own
presuppositions about what is right and wrong (for example, his
accusation that God is "homophobic"), some are due to his failure
to have read the history leading up to particular events, and some are
just plain wrong. That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible. One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.

The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status is
minimal. (p. 92)
Some of the most striking evidence is not immediately obvious in
English translation, but would have stood out like a sore thumb to
contemporaries. One of the clearest of the many times Jesus claimed to
be God is His use of the divine name, "I AM."

This divine name was told to Moses, when he met with God (who appeared
as a burning bush).

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you
shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'."
(Exodus 3:14)
The Hebrew word translated here as I AM is often transliterated into
English as YHWH. The Name is usually translated as LORD, with four
capital letters.

Jesus used the style "I am ... " very frequently, most notably in
John 10.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
Apart from the fact that God is frequently referred to as the Shepherd,
the people listening to Jesus would have been very familiar with the
words of Psalm 23.

The LORD is my shepherd. (Psalm 23:1)
Remembering that the word LORD is basically the same as I AM, the
people listening to Jesus were in no doubt that He was claiming to be
God. This is not a code, or an obscure point. Jesus knew that His words
were reminiscent of Psalm 23 and so did the people. This is why in John
10:31, the people had picked up stones and were ready to stone Jesus,
accusing Him of blasphemy. Jesus' claim to be divine was obvious to
them.

Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.

In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from David.
(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary. Thus Jesus traces back an
actual blood relationship, through Mary to David, via David's son
Nathan. Jesus also traces an adoptive relationship through his father
Joseph, through the kings, to David, via David's son Solomon (in
Matthew 1). Thus both Joseph and Mary are descended from David, but
Jesus' bloodline is only through Mary-He truly is the "seed of
the woman" prophesied in Genesis 3:15. However, Jesus could inherit
from Joseph, even if He was not a blood descendent. Therefore,
Joseph's lineage is important, because, through Joseph, Jesus
inherits the kingship. None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.

Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks. Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him. Given that history is usually
written by the victors, it is noteworthy that the Bible contains
unflattering accounts of the transgressions of His people. This is
evidence in support of the truthfulness of Scripture.

Poor logic

It must also be said that Dawkins' arguments show surprisingly poor
logic. Examine this extraordinary sentence:

Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in
general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament)
as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall
not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. (p.
97)
Look first at the use of the word "probably" in "Although Jesus
probably existed." Why is Dawkins doubting this fact? There is no
good reason to question that Jesus existed. It is illogical to add the
word "probably."

Look next at the use of the word "reputable." What is a
"reputable biblical scholar"? The test of reputation has been left
undone by Dawkins, but presumably, a "reputable biblical scholar"
is one who agrees with Dawkins' attempts to rubbish the Bible. Logic
would require defining this term. Such people can be found, though
whether the adjective "reputable" is appropriate for such people is
a matter of opinion. We define a "reputable biblical scholar" as
one who at least approaches the Bible with respect, preferably
believing it to be the inspired, inerrant and authoritative word of
God, from the very first verse.

Thirdly, why is it "obvious" that the Old Testament should not be
regarded as reliable? He has clearly not read detailed apologetics of
Scriptural inerrancy, such as that provided by Brian Edwards in his
masterly book, Nothing But The Truth. That is again down to his
presupposition-that evolution is true, therefore Genesis is wrong,
therefore evolution is true. Merely making a statement, or using the
word "obvious," does not make a statement true! Just from these
three points, we see that there is no logical reason given by Dawkins
for rejecting the use of the Bible as evidence.

Articles on the use of logic are easy to find on the website. An
important element in the use of logic is to recognise logical
fallacies. Dawkins has committed several of these.

Circular reasoning

This fallacy occurs when your presupposition is actually what you wish
to prove. Look at this example:

Creative intelligences, being evolved, necessarily arrive late in the
universe, and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it. (p. 31)
The logical fallacy is breathtaking. Evolution is first assumed, in
order to prove that evolution is true rather than intelligent design:
"creative intelligences, being evolved ... ." It is Dawkins'
presupposition that all creative intelligences have evolved. It is an
idea not supported by, for example, information science.

Ad hominem

This sort of fallacy involves attacking the opponent instead of the
argument. In the UK, this is referred to as "playing the man instead
of the ball"-a soccer reference, implying that the tackler has
deliberately aimed to kick his opponent, rather than attempting to kick
the ball.

There are several examples of this, such as a particularly nasty attack
on a schoolteacher, who happens to be a creationist. Notice, on page
95, how Dawkins describes certain American educational establishments:

He moved up the hierarchy of American universities, from rock bottom at
the "Moody Bible Institute", through Wheaton College (a little bit
higher on the scale, but still the alma mater of Billy Graham) to
Princeton in the world-beating class at the top. (p. 95)
Why are the three institutions arranged hierarchically? What is the
basis for Dawkins' assessment of standards at each place? He
doesn't say, but we assume that it has to do with belief in the
Bible. Why is it implied that, because they number Billy Graham among
their alumni, this is a negative for Wheaton College? [Editor's note:
It is ironic that Dawkins would have a problem with Wheaton College,
since it does not adhere to a plain interpretation of Genesis.]

Straw men

The well-known "straw man" logical fallacy occurs when the debater
misrepresents (often by oversimplifying) his or her opponent's
position for them, then argues against this invented position, rather
than against the actual arguments of the opponent. An example of this
is seen in the mocking tone used as he attempts to dismiss arguments
based on intelligent design.

I [insert own name] am personally unable to think of any way in which
[insert biological phenomenon] could have been built up step by step.
Therefore it is irreducibly complex. That means it is designed.
Although Dawkins uses this argument frequently, it is a complete
misrepresentation of the intelligent design position. A biological
mechanism is not labeled as irreducibly complex because it is
complicated and the labeler cannot think how it could have evolved. It
is so labeled because it can be shown that it is not possible for it to
have evolved.

Inconsistency

It is noteworthy that Dawkins' arguments are very inconsistent. For
example, Dawkins frequently returns to a criticism of the so-called
"God of the gaps" approach that uses the supernatural to explain
what science cannot currently explain. Compare that attitude with his
own, on page 132, where he comments on gaps in evolutionary knowledge:

A lot more work needs to be done, of course, and I'm sure it will be.
In Dawkins' view, it is inappropriate for a scientist to appeal to
the Creator to make a scientific explanation, even if that explanation
is logically sound. On the other hand, Dawkins writes as though it is
perfectly acceptable, when faced with dilemmas that evolution cannot
explain, to suppose that an evolutionary scientist will have a
naturalistic answer someday, even if the science is consistent with a
biblical approach. Such double standards allow Dawkins to self-justify
poor logic, while refusing to acknowledge the strength of those who
oppose him.

Conclusion

Christians have nothing to fear from The God Delusion. Far from being a
reasoned argument for atheism, it is a rant. It would be appropriate
for Christians to be aware of the principal arguments of the book, and
how they are countered. Maybe one day an atheistic book will emerge
that has more intellectual rigour, but even an intellectually rigorous
apology for atheism would not concern us for God is a God of wisdom and
reason. Time and again we find that a belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture is not just a doctrinal statement, it is an intellectually
satisfying position to take. But Dawkins' new book is weak, even by
atheist standards. We note that Dawkins is now planning to send atheist
material to government schools in the UK. That might be a good
opportunity for British school pupils to exercise their critical
thinking!

Reference

Madeleine Bunting, "No wonder atheists are angry," The Guardian,
January 7, 2006.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In all fairness, there are two main points that should be
clearly understood by *all* Non-Atheists. Understand this:
First, hard-line, Anti-Christian (IL)Liberal *Atheism* was
_established_ as America's official State religion in 1947
by decision of the United States Supreme Court. Ever since
then, over the past six decades, America has descended from
the strongest, mostly God-fearing, and predominantly Judeo-
Christian nation on Earth, down to the very brink of whole-
sale, unbridled anarchy, chaos, and across-the-board death
of America as a nation, and likely the whole world with her.
Realize, Atheists believe that all Non-Atheists, especially
Christians, are intellectually inferior "brain-dead morons",
and that all Christian children and their families are all
"worthless garbage". And they don't just talk like that ALL
the time with legal impunity, they ENFORCE their Atheism by
supporting, defending, aiding and abetting violent criminals
and their violent crimes: especially crimes against children,
including the cold-blooded, genocidal MURDER of millions of
unborn children, all with legal impunity. That's (IL)Liberal
Atheism. That is their religion, the official State religion
of America. So, all you good "Christians" who stood idly by
and did *NOTHING* to stop them, pat yourselves on the back,
you've earned it. And you'll receive your just reward soon
enough, in the promised land, right alongside the Atheists.
The Anti-Christian Atheists succeeded in highjacking Federal,
State, City and Local Government across America, because the
half-baked, lukewarm, milquetoast so-called "Christians" did
NOTHING to stop them -- much as they did NOTHING to stop the
NAZIs in 1930s Germany and half of all Europe along with him
before all was said & done: There are no Atheists in foxholes.
So, on this first point, the fact that Anti-Christian Atheism
is the official State religion of America, barring all other
religions from all public schools, courtrooms and government
in general, I really have no sympathy toward the "Christians"
who stood idly by and did *NOTHING* to stop them. Those who
are not willing to fight, kill and die for their Country are
not worth the paper they are printed on. 'T is just desserts
for Liars, Cowards and Murderers--and their many accomplices
(they aren't only Legion, but are many Legions upon Legions).
The second point was made by the late President Ronald Reagan
that America is no longer a nation By the people and for the
people, but has become a draconian State "By the lawyers and
for the lawyers". Thus the Atheists have never been FORCED to
defend themselves, while their Anti-Christian lawyers & judges
have been working around the clock to De-Christianize America,
and they have damned-near succeeded in doing that, too! Soon,
Christianity will be legally outlawed, just as the Jews and
other "dissidents" were legally outlawed under the genocidal
NAZI regime of terror. That's exactly what's going to happen
if *Christians* across America don't wake up and declare War
against the Anti-Christian (IL)Liberal Atheists! Not only in
America, but around the world, Yea the whole inhabited Earth.
Among the many things that Non-Atheists can do to fight the
battle against ILLiberal Atheists and their Anti-Christian
lawyers & judges across America, is for the USSC to rule in
favor of superimposing the theory of Intelligent Design over
the top of the orthodox Atheist theory of Evolution, in all
public schools in all 50 States across America, and do this
SOON. Also, another very helpful thing Non-Atheists can do
is to BOYCOTT Atheists in every way, shape and form you can
think of! *NEVER* hire them for a job, for example. Always
*OPPOSE* them in every possible way. Don't talk to them, do
not negotiate with them, do not associate with them, and be
sure to *ALWAYS* call them what they are, in public: Liars,
Cowards & Murderers! And do so in a very strong loud voice.
And let's get the Ten Commandments & Golden Rule returned to
*EVERY* classroom, courtroom and government place in America.
And of course, criticizing the inept Atheist critics, mocking
the inept Atheist mockers etc., that goes a long way, too... :)
In Vigilance,
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQA/AwUBRbfONZljD7YrHM/nEQIydwCfaIhQW1g1RjYbsx+BvCAdy7bZ+D0AoJrA
PuooLwEagc4IMYfTfYiDj2Nh
=EoD1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
.

User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 10:04:06 AM
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:53:35 -0800, Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor


Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger


What a breath-takingly weak response to _The God Delusion_. I actually
read the whole thing, in case the *next* paragraph made a valid point.
All I got was some quibbling over interpretations of the Scriptures,
groundless objections to Dawkins' questioning the reliability of the
historical accuracy of the Old Testament, and unsupported assertions that
Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Irreducible Complexity are correct,
to name a few.
I often wonder how otherwise intelligent people can deny an argument
against belief in gods that is as eloquent as the one Dawkins puts forth.
This pathetic attempt at rebuttal gives me some insight.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 11:26:01 PM
MarkA wrote:

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 05:53:35 -0800, Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor


Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger



What a breath-takingly weak response to _The God Delusion_. I actually
read the whole thing, in case the *next* paragraph made a valid point.
All I got was some quibbling over interpretations of the Scriptures,
groundless objections to Dawkins' questioning the reliability of the
historical accuracy of the Old Testament, and unsupported assertions that
Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Irreducible Complexity are correct,
to name a few.

I often wonder how otherwise intelligent people can deny an argument
against belief in gods that is as eloquent as the one Dawkins puts forth.
This pathetic attempt at rebuttal gives me some insight.

--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)

Huxley thought the same, years ago
You never see animals going through the absurd and often horrible fooleries
of magic and religion. Only man behaves with such gratuitous folly. It is
the price he has to pay for being intelligent but not, as yet, quite
intelligent enough.
[Aldous Leonard Huxley]
.


User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 01:54:40 PM
One fine day in alt.atheism, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> bloodied us up with this:

Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.

You don't like that do you?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Proud member of Earthquack's "Ghost fulla holes" convict page.
Don’t be afraid. The lack of a deity is not an opening for chaos. It is a
call for responsibility. -Lauren Becker
.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 11:28:02 PM
Uncle Vic wrote:

One fine day in alt.atheism, "Sound of Trumpet"
<sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> bloodied us up with this:

Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.


You don't like that do you?

The fool thinks atheism is a religion trying to take his one over !
GROAN



--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Proud member of Earthquack's "Ghost fulla holes" convict page.
Don£t be afraid. The lack of a deity is not an opening for chaos. It is a
call for responsibility. -Lauren Becker

.


User: ""

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 12:51:29 PM
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor


Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger


Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist.

See, you can stop reading right now. There's never going to be a
resolution with a person that does so little constructive thinking. I
know why Dawkins believes what he believes. He "believes" that there's
nothing there, because there's been no evidence of anything there. He
doesn't believe that; he knows that. He thinks, he knows, he reasons,
he concludes. He doesn't need to believe.
It's easier and lazier to believe; that way you don't have to prove or
justify anything. You can be a juvenile your whole life,
.

User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 11:14:02 PM
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts

Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor

Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger

Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.

Shaking in your shoes
at the sight of your myth being revealed for all to see; yet again?
Read Emmett's last line,
it was written especially for you
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious
mind cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is
not an old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is
not, and never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is
magnificent in its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in
a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
Oh........ and all that you need to do to make every atheist disappear in
a puff of smoke
is have your god proven in a verifiable way - over to you
Bob
humanist Brit.



This year, he has been on the road throughout the UK and the US,
appearing on talk shows and news interviews. He had two hours of
prime-time television on the UK's Channel 4 network in January 2006.
In these programs (entitled The Root of All Evil?), Dawkins sought to
persuade his audience of the importance of his case-that not only
should his audience not believe in God, but they should actively oppose
any form of religion. (I reviewed these programs previously.) It was
not only evangelical Christians who were critical of the programs.
Writing in The Guardian, a left-leaning UK newspaper not noted for its
support of creationists, Madeleine Bunting described the documentaries
as "intellectually lazy polemic."1

With the publication of his new book, The God Delusion, we now have an
expanded version of his atheist manifesto. One would have hoped that he
would have taken the opportunity to present a more intellectually
rigorous case. Indeed, some may have been afraid of opening the book,
in case the sheer weight of evidence might have destroyed their faith.
For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge-but sadly I was to be disappointed. The book suffers from
the same intellectual laziness as the television programs.

Dawkins' arguments, far from having intellectual clout, mostly fall
back on, "The argument will be so familiar, I needn't document it
further." Dawkins' paucity of argument is best illustrated by his
ignorance of Scripture and by his faulty logic.

Ignorance of Scripture

Although The God Delusion is ostensibly about all religions, in
practice it is about Christianity-and evangelical Christianity in
particular is the focus of Dawkins' attacks. In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible. This is
unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on the Bible reveals
that he has not approached it with an open mind.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character
in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice. He goes on to make
several more specific accusations about the character of God. Most of
his accusations are unsubstantiated. Some are due to Dawkins' own
presuppositions about what is right and wrong (for example, his
accusation that God is "homophobic"), some are due to his failure
to have read the history leading up to particular events, and some are
just plain wrong. That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible. One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.

The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status is
minimal. (p. 92)
Some of the most striking evidence is not immediately obvious in
English translation, but would have stood out like a sore thumb to
contemporaries. One of the clearest of the many times Jesus claimed to
be God is His use of the divine name, "I AM."

This divine name was told to Moses, when he met with God (who appeared
as a burning bush).

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you
shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'."
(Exodus 3:14)
The Hebrew word translated here as I AM is often transliterated into
English as YHWH. The Name is usually translated as LORD, with four
capital letters.

Jesus used the style "I am ... " very frequently, most notably in
John 10.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
Apart from the fact that God is frequently referred to as the Shepherd,
the people listening to Jesus would have been very familiar with the
words of Psalm 23.

The LORD is my shepherd. (Psalm 23:1)
Remembering that the word LORD is basically the same as I AM, the
people listening to Jesus were in no doubt that He was claiming to be
God. This is not a code, or an obscure point. Jesus knew that His words
were reminiscent of Psalm 23 and so did the people. This is why in John
10:31, the people had picked up stones and were ready to stone Jesus,
accusing Him of blasphemy. Jesus' claim to be divine was obvious to
them.

Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.

In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from David.
(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary. Thus Jesus traces back an
actual blood relationship, through Mary to David, via David's son
Nathan. Jesus also traces an adoptive relationship through his father
Joseph, through the kings, to David, via David's son Solomon (in
Matthew 1). Thus both Joseph and Mary are descended from David, but
Jesus' bloodline is only through Mary-He truly is the "seed of
the woman" prophesied in Genesis 3:15. However, Jesus could inherit
from Joseph, even if He was not a blood descendent. Therefore,
Joseph's lineage is important, because, through Joseph, Jesus
inherits the kingship. None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.

Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks. Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him. Given that history is usually
written by the victors, it is noteworthy that the Bible contains
unflattering accounts of the transgressions of His people. This is
evidence in support of the truthfulness of Scripture.

Poor logic

It must also be said that Dawkins' arguments show surprisingly poor
logic. Examine this extraordinary sentence:

Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in
general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament)
as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall
not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. (p.
97)
Look first at the use of the word "probably" in "Although Jesus
probably existed." Why is Dawkins doubting this fact? There is no
good reason to question that Jesus existed. It is illogical to add the
word "probably."

Look next at the use of the word "reputable." What is a
"reputable biblical scholar"? The test of reputation has been left
undone by Dawkins, but presumably, a "reputable biblical scholar"
is one who agrees with Dawkins' attempts to rubbish the Bible. Logic
would require defining this term. Such people can be found, though
whether the adjective "reputable" is appropriate for such people is
a matter of opinion. We define a "reputable biblical scholar" as
one who at least approaches the Bible with respect, preferably
believing it to be the inspired, inerrant and authoritative word of
God, from the very first verse.

Thirdly, why is it "obvious" that the Old Testament should not be
regarded as reliable? He has clearly not read detailed apologetics of
Scriptural inerrancy, such as that provided by Brian Edwards in his
masterly book, Nothing But The Truth. That is again down to his
presupposition-that evolution is true, therefore Genesis is wrong,
therefore evolution is true. Merely making a statement, or using the
word "obvious," does not make a statement true! Just from these
three points, we see that there is no logical reason given by Dawkins
for rejecting the use of the Bible as evidence.

Articles on the use of logic are easy to find on the website. An
important element in the use of logic is to recognise logical
fallacies. Dawkins has committed several of these.

Circular reasoning

This fallacy occurs when your presupposition is actually what you wish
to prove. Look at this example:

Creative intelligences, being evolved, necessarily arrive late in the
universe, and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it. (p. 31)
The logical fallacy is breathtaking. Evolution is first assumed, in
order to prove that evolution is true rather than intelligent design:
"creative intelligences, being evolved ... ." It is Dawkins'
presupposition that all creative intelligences have evolved. It is an
idea not supported by, for example, information science.

Ad hominem

This sort of fallacy involves attacking the opponent instead of the
argument. In the UK, this is referred to as "playing the man instead
of the ball"-a soccer reference, implying that the tackler has
deliberately aimed to kick his opponent, rather than attempting to kick
the ball.

There are several examples of this, such as a particularly nasty attack
on a schoolteacher, who happens to be a creationist. Notice, on page
95, how Dawkins describes certain American educational establishments:

He moved up the hierarchy of American universities, from rock bottom at
the "Moody Bible Institute", through Wheaton College (a little bit
higher on the scale, but still the alma mater of Billy Graham) to
Princeton in the world-beating class at the top. (p. 95)
Why are the three institutions arranged hierarchically? What is the
basis for Dawkins' assessment of standards at each place? He
doesn't say, but we assume that it has to do with belief in the
Bible. Why is it implied that, because they number Billy Graham among
their alumni, this is a negative for Wheaton College? [Editor's note:
It is ironic that Dawkins would have a problem with Wheaton College,
since it does not adhere to a plain interpretation of Genesis.]

Straw men

The well-known "straw man" logical fallacy occurs when the debater
misrepresents (often by oversimplifying) his or her opponent's
position for them, then argues against this invented position, rather
than against the actual arguments of the opponent. An example of this
is seen in the mocking tone used as he attempts to dismiss arguments
based on intelligent design.

I [insert own name] am personally unable to think of any way in which
[insert biological phenomenon] could have been built up step by step.
Therefore it is irreducibly complex. That means it is designed.
Although Dawkins uses this argument frequently, it is a complete
misrepresentation of the intelligent design position. A biological
mechanism is not labeled as irreducibly complex because it is
complicated and the labeler cannot think how it could have evolved. It
is so labeled because it can be shown that it is not possible for it to
have evolved.

Inconsistency

It is noteworthy that Dawkins' arguments are very inconsistent. For
example, Dawkins frequently returns to a criticism of the so-called
"God of the gaps" approach that uses the supernatural to explain
what science cannot currently explain. Compare that attitude with his
own, on page 132, where he comments on gaps in evolutionary knowledge:

A lot more work needs to be done, of course, and I'm sure it will be.
In Dawkins' view, it is inappropriate for a scientist to appeal to
the Creator to make a scientific explanation, even if that explanation
is logically sound. On the other hand, Dawkins writes as though it is
perfectly acceptable, when faced with dilemmas that evolution cannot
explain, to suppose that an evolutionary scientist will have a
naturalistic answer someday, even if the science is consistent with a
biblical approach. Such double standards allow Dawkins to self-justify
poor logic, while refusing to acknowledge the strength of those who
oppose him.

Conclusion

Christians have nothing to fear from The God Delusion. Far from being a
reasoned argument for atheism, it is a rant. It would be appropriate
for Christians to be aware of the principal arguments of the book, and
how they are countered. Maybe one day an atheistic book will emerge
that has more intellectual rigour, but even an intellectually rigorous
apology for atheism would not concern us for God is a God of wisdom and
reason. Time and again we find that a belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture is not just a doctrinal statement, it is an intellectually
satisfying position to take. But Dawkins' new book is weak, even by
atheist standards. We note that Dawkins is now planning to send atheist
material to government schools in the UK. That might be a good
opportunity for British school pupils to exercise their critical
thinking!

Reference

Madeleine Bunting, "No wonder atheists are angry," The Guardian,
January 7, 2006.

.
User: "Patty Winter"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 11:38:41 PM
Please, if you must respond to this nutcase's postings, remove
all the off-topic groups from the Newsgroups line. Thanks.
.


User: "Bill M"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 08:54:11 AM
The Bibles are so abstruse that they can be interpreted to mean what any
religionist or atheist wants them to mean.
No real god would communicate in such a confusing totally unsubstantiated
manner as the Bibles.
The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,
barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally
untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.
The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower's
belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions alone
and there is no way of knowing how far they have wondered from the
originals.
And there is no evidence that even the originals are facts instead of
fiction.
"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1169646815.716119.296440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor


Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger


Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.

This year, he has been on the road throughout the UK and the US,
appearing on talk shows and news interviews. He had two hours of
prime-time television on the UK's Channel 4 network in January 2006.
In these programs (entitled The Root of All Evil?), Dawkins sought to
persuade his audience of the importance of his case-that not only
should his audience not believe in God, but they should actively oppose
any form of religion. (I reviewed these programs previously.) It was
not only evangelical Christians who were critical of the programs.
Writing in The Guardian, a left-leaning UK newspaper not noted for its
support of creationists, Madeleine Bunting described the documentaries
as "intellectually lazy polemic."1

With the publication of his new book, The God Delusion, we now have an
expanded version of his atheist manifesto. One would have hoped that he
would have taken the opportunity to present a more intellectually
rigorous case. Indeed, some may have been afraid of opening the book,
in case the sheer weight of evidence might have destroyed their faith.
For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge-but sadly I was to be disappointed. The book suffers from
the same intellectual laziness as the television programs.

Dawkins' arguments, far from having intellectual clout, mostly fall
back on, "The argument will be so familiar, I needn't document it
further." Dawkins' paucity of argument is best illustrated by his
ignorance of Scripture and by his faulty logic.

Ignorance of Scripture

Although The God Delusion is ostensibly about all religions, in
practice it is about Christianity-and evangelical Christianity in
particular is the focus of Dawkins' attacks. In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible. This is
unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on the Bible reveals
that he has not approached it with an open mind.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character
in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice. He goes on to make
several more specific accusations about the character of God. Most of
his accusations are unsubstantiated. Some are due to Dawkins' own
presuppositions about what is right and wrong (for example, his
accusation that God is "homophobic"), some are due to his failure
to have read the history leading up to particular events, and some are
just plain wrong. That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible. One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.

The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status is
minimal. (p. 92)
Some of the most striking evidence is not immediately obvious in
English translation, but would have stood out like a sore thumb to
contemporaries. One of the clearest of the many times Jesus claimed to
be God is His use of the divine name, "I AM."

This divine name was told to Moses, when he met with God (who appeared
as a burning bush).

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you
shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'."
(Exodus 3:14)
The Hebrew word translated here as I AM is often transliterated into
English as YHWH. The Name is usually translated as LORD, with four
capital letters.

Jesus used the style "I am ... " very frequently, most notably in
John 10.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
Apart from the fact that God is frequently referred to as the Shepherd,
the people listening to Jesus would have been very familiar with the
words of Psalm 23.

The LORD is my shepherd. (Psalm 23:1)
Remembering that the word LORD is basically the same as I AM, the
people listening to Jesus were in no doubt that He was claiming to be
God. This is not a code, or an obscure point. Jesus knew that His words
were reminiscent of Psalm 23 and so did the people. This is why in John
10:31, the people had picked up stones and were ready to stone Jesus,
accusing Him of blasphemy. Jesus' claim to be divine was obvious to
them.

Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.

In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from David.
(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary. Thus Jesus traces back an
actual blood relationship, through Mary to David, via David's son
Nathan. Jesus also traces an adoptive relationship through his father
Joseph, through the kings, to David, via David's son Solomon (in
Matthew 1). Thus both Joseph and Mary are descended from David, but
Jesus' bloodline is only through Mary-He truly is the "seed of
the woman" prophesied in Genesis 3:15. However, Jesus could inherit
from Joseph, even if He was not a blood descendent. Therefore,
Joseph's lineage is important, because, through Joseph, Jesus
inherits the kingship. None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.

Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks. Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him. Given that history is usually
written by the victors, it is noteworthy that the Bible contains
unflattering accounts of the transgressions of His people. This is
evidence in support of the truthfulness of Scripture.

Poor logic

It must also be said that Dawkins' arguments show surprisingly poor
logic. Examine this extraordinary sentence:

Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in
general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament)
as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall
not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. (p.
97)
Look first at the use of the word "probably" in "Although Jesus
probably existed." Why is Dawkins doubting this fact? There is no
good reason to question that Jesus existed. It is illogical to add the
word "probably."

Look next at the use of the word "reputable." What is a
"reputable biblical scholar"? The test of reputation has been left
undone by Dawkins, but presumably, a "reputable biblical scholar"
is one who agrees with Dawkins' attempts to rubbish the Bible. Logic
would require defining this term. Such people can be found, though
whether the adjective "reputable" is appropriate for such people is
a matter of opinion. We define a "reputable biblical scholar" as
one who at least approaches the Bible with respect, preferably
believing it to be the inspired, inerrant and authoritative word of
God, from the very first verse.

Thirdly, why is it "obvious" that the Old Testament should not be
regarded as reliable? He has clearly not read detailed apologetics of
Scriptural inerrancy, such as that provided by Brian Edwards in his
masterly book, Nothing But The Truth. That is again down to his
presupposition-that evolution is true, therefore Genesis is wrong,
therefore evolution is true. Merely making a statement, or using the
word "obvious," does not make a statement true! Just from these
three points, we see that there is no logical reason given by Dawkins
for rejecting the use of the Bible as evidence.

Articles on the use of logic are easy to find on the website. An
important element in the use of logic is to recognise logical
fallacies. Dawkins has committed several of these.

Circular reasoning

This fallacy occurs when your presupposition is actually what you wish
to prove. Look at this example:

Creative intelligences, being evolved, necessarily arrive late in the
universe, and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it. (p. 31)
The logical fallacy is breathtaking. Evolution is first assumed, in
order to prove that evolution is true rather than intelligent design:
"creative intelligences, being evolved ... ." It is Dawkins'
presupposition that all creative intelligences have evolved. It is an
idea not supported by, for example, information science.

Ad hominem

This sort of fallacy involves attacking the opponent instead of the
argument. In the UK, this is referred to as "playing the man instead
of the ball"-a soccer reference, implying that the tackler has
deliberately aimed to kick his opponent, rather than attempting to kick
the ball.

There are several examples of this, such as a particularly nasty attack
on a schoolteacher, who happens to be a creationist. Notice, on page
95, how Dawkins describes certain American educational establishments:

He moved up the hierarchy of American universities, from rock bottom at
the "Moody Bible Institute", through Wheaton College (a little bit
higher on the scale, but still the alma mater of Billy Graham) to
Princeton in the world-beating class at the top. (p. 95)
Why are the three institutions arranged hierarchically? What is the
basis for Dawkins' assessment of standards at each place? He
doesn't say, but we assume that it has to do with belief in the
Bible. Why is it implied that, because they number Billy Graham among
their alumni, this is a negative for Wheaton College? [Editor's note:
It is ironic that Dawkins would have a problem with Wheaton College,
since it does not adhere to a plain interpretation of Genesis.]

Straw men

The well-known "straw man" logical fallacy occurs when the debater
misrepresents (often by oversimplifying) his or her opponent's
position for them, then argues against this invented position, rather
than against the actual arguments of the opponent. An example of this
is seen in the mocking tone used as he attempts to dismiss arguments
based on intelligent design.

I [insert own name] am personally unable to think of any way in which
[insert biological phenomenon] could have been built up step by step.
Therefore it is irreducibly complex. That means it is designed.
Although Dawkins uses this argument frequently, it is a complete
misrepresentation of the intelligent design position. A biological
mechanism is not labeled as irreducibly complex because it is
complicated and the labeler cannot think how it could have evolved. It
is so labeled because it can be shown that it is not possible for it to
have evolved.

Inconsistency

It is noteworthy that Dawkins' arguments are very inconsistent. For
example, Dawkins frequently returns to a criticism of the so-called
"God of the gaps" approach that uses the supernatural to explain
what science cannot currently explain. Compare that attitude with his
own, on page 132, where he comments on gaps in evolutionary knowledge:

A lot more work needs to be done, of course, and I'm sure it will be.
In Dawkins' view, it is inappropriate for a scientist to appeal to
the Creator to make a scientific explanation, even if that explanation
is logically sound. On the other hand, Dawkins writes as though it is
perfectly acceptable, when faced with dilemmas that evolution cannot
explain, to suppose that an evolutionary scientist will have a
naturalistic answer someday, even if the science is consistent with a
biblical approach. Such double standards allow Dawkins to self-justify
poor logic, while refusing to acknowledge the strength of those who
oppose him.

Conclusion

Christians have nothing to fear from The God Delusion. Far from being a
reasoned argument for atheism, it is a rant. It would be appropriate
for Christians to be aware of the principal arguments of the book, and
how they are countered. Maybe one day an atheistic book will emerge
that has more intellectual rigour, but even an intellectually rigorous
apology for atheism would not concern us for God is a God of wisdom and
reason. Time and again we find that a belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture is not just a doctrinal statement, it is an intellectually
satisfying position to take. But Dawkins' new book is weak, even by
atheist standards. We note that Dawkins is now planning to send atheist
material to government schools in the UK. That might be a good
opportunity for British school pupils to exercise their critical
thinking!

Reference

Madeleine Bunting, "No wonder atheists are angry," The Guardian,
January 7, 2006.

.
User: "bob young"

Title: Re: Deconstructing Deluded Atheist Teleevangelist Dawkins 24 Jan 2007 11:22:03 PM
Bill M wrote:

The Bibles are so abstruse that they can be interpreted to mean what any
religionist or atheist wants them to mean.

No real god would communicate in such a confusing totally unsubstantiated
manner as the Bibles.

A powerful god that created everything in the universe
relies on an old book written by primitive humans !!!!!
How much more silly can it get !?
I thought about 'God's works' watching a news report about the volcano 'Vesuvius'
a couple of days ago
Apparently it is showing signs of erupting
and there are three million people living just fifteen kilometers away.
Quite a workman 'that god' wasn't it?
I suppose if they are all wiped out they will be classed as 'sinners who deserved
punishment'
[sillier and sillier, and sillier, and sillier,



The Bibles are nothing more than books of myths, fables, contradictions,
human and animal sacrifices, genocide, slaveholding, misogyny, destruction,
barbarisms, and impossible tales. They are not accurate history and
certainly are not the words of any god unless he is an insane and totally
untrustworthy monster. They are not even good fiction.

The Bibles are a foundation of quicksand. There are NO ORIGINALS in
existence. Why would not any 'real' God protect the originals??? What are
available are altered copies of copies by unknown men of questionable
veracity. The books of the Bibles were written over 1,000 years before the
invention of the printing press. Even the so called originals were
supposedly written by 56 or more different authors of unknown veracity. They
are biased by, and dependent on the writings and opinions of the clergy. And
the status and survival of the clergy is totally dependent on their follower's
belief in their Bible stories. There are 18 different English versions alone
and there is no way of knowing how far they have wondered from the
originals.

And there is no evidence that even the originals are facts instead of
fiction.

"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1169646815.716119.296440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745411/posts


Deconstructing a deluded Dawkins (Review of "The God Delusion")

Answers in Genesis ^ | November 27, 2006 | Paul Taylor


Posted on 11/28/2006 3:10:08 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger


Have you ever wondered why an atheist believes what he/she does?
Richard Dawkins wants you to know why he is an atheist. Dawkins, the
Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford
University, is arguably the world's best-known atheist. He is not
just any old atheist, however; he is atheism's great televangelist.

This year, he has been on the road throughout the UK and the US,
appearing on talk shows and news interviews. He had two hours of
prime-time television on the UK's Channel 4 network in January 2006.
In these programs (entitled The Root of All Evil?), Dawkins sought to
persuade his audience of the importance of his case-that not only
should his audience not believe in God, but they should actively oppose
any form of religion. (I reviewed these programs previously.) It was
not only evangelical Christians who were critical of the programs.
Writing in The Guardian, a left-leaning UK newspaper not noted for its
support of creationists, Madeleine Bunting described the documentaries
as "intellectually lazy polemic."1

With the publication of his new book, The God Delusion, we now have an
expanded version of his atheist manifesto. One would have hoped that he
would have taken the opportunity to present a more intellectually
rigorous case. Indeed, some may have been afraid of opening the book,
in case the sheer weight of evidence might have destroyed their faith.
For my part, I was looking forward to encountering an intellectual
challenge-but sadly I was to be disappointed. The book suffers from
the same intellectual laziness as the television programs.

Dawkins' arguments, far from having intellectual clout, mostly fall
back on, "The argument will be so familiar, I needn't document it
further." Dawkins' paucity of argument is best illustrated by his
ignorance of Scripture and by his faulty logic.

Ignorance of Scripture

Although The God Delusion is ostensibly about all religions, in
practice it is about Christianity-and evangelical Christianity in
particular is the focus of Dawkins' attacks. In his arguments against
Christianity, he makes much use of Scripture. However, his use of
Scripture is highly suspect. It appears that he has done very little
research into the structure or history of the Bible. This is
unsurprising, as almost every statement he makes on the Bible reveals
that he has not approached it with an open mind.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character
in all fiction. (p. 31)
Statements like this are loaded with prejudice. He goes on to make
several more specific accusations about the character of God. Most of
his accusations are unsubstantiated. Some are due to Dawkins' own
presuppositions about what is right and wrong (for example, his
accusation that God is "homophobic"), some are due to his failure
to have read the history leading up to particular events, and some are
just plain wrong. That an intelligent man like Dawkins was so skimpy on
his biblical research is incredible. One is reminded of Paul's
quotation of the Psalms in 1 Corinthians 3:20: "The Lord knows the
thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

We need to study a few examples of this lack of research regarding
Scripture.

The historical evidence that Jesus claimed any sort of divine status is
minimal. (p. 92)
Some of the most striking evidence is not immediately obvious in
English translation, but would have stood out like a sore thumb to
contemporaries. One of the clearest of the many times Jesus claimed to
be God is His use of the divine name, "I AM."

This divine name was told to Moses, when he met with God (who appeared
as a burning bush).

And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you
shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'."
(Exodus 3:14)
The Hebrew word translated here as I AM is often transliterated into
English as YHWH. The Name is usually translated as LORD, with four
capital letters.

Jesus used the style "I am ... " very frequently, most notably in
John 10.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
(John 10:11)
Apart from the fact that God is frequently referred to as the Shepherd,
the people listening to Jesus would have been very familiar with the
words of Psalm 23.

The LORD is my shepherd. (Psalm 23:1)
Remembering that the word LORD is basically the same as I AM, the
people listening to Jesus were in no doubt that He was claiming to be
God. This is not a code, or an obscure point. Jesus knew that His words
were reminiscent of Psalm 23 and so did the people. This is why in John
10:31, the people had picked up stones and were ready to stone Jesus,
accusing Him of blasphemy. Jesus' claim to be divine was obvious to
them.

Notice Dawkins' misunderstanding of the lineage of Jesus.

In any case, if Jesus really was born of a virgin, Joseph's ancestry
is irrelevant and cannot be used to fulfill, on Jesus' behalf, the
Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah should be descended from David.
(p. 95)
Luke's gospel has a genealogy in chapter 3, which most commentators
agree is the descent of Jesus through Mary. Thus Jesus traces back an
actual blood relationship, through Mary to David, via David's son
Nathan. Jesus also traces an adoptive relationship through his father
Joseph, through the kings, to David, via David's son Solomon (in
Matthew 1). Thus both Joseph and Mary are descended from David, but
Jesus' bloodline is only through Mary-He truly is the "seed of
the woman" prophesied in Genesis 3:15. However, Jesus could inherit
from Joseph, even if He was not a blood descendent. Therefore,
Joseph's lineage is important, because, through Joseph, Jesus
inherits the kingship. None of this is very difficult to research, and
Dawkins should have done so.

Space does not permit further examination of his errors in handling
Scripture, save to mention that the dreadful account of the horrific
events of Judges 19 are not recorded to imply God's approval, as
Dawkins thinks. Rather, they show the depths to which God's people
are able to stoop when they reject Him. Given that history is usually
written by the victors, it is noteworthy that the Bible contains
unflattering accounts of the transgressions of His people. This is
evidence in support of the truthfulness of Scripture.

Poor logic

It must also be said that Dawkins' arguments show surprisingly poor
logic. Examine this extraordinary sentence:

Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in
general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament)
as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall
not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity. (p.
97)
Look first at the use of the word "probably" in "Although Jesus
probably existed." Why is Dawkins doubting this fact? There is no
good reason to question that Jesus existed. It is illogical to add the
word "probably."

Look next at the use of the word "reputable." What is a
"reputable biblical scholar"? The test of reputation has been left
undone by Dawkins, but presumably, a "reputable biblical scholar"
is one who agrees with Dawkins' attempts to rubbish the Bible. Logic
would require defining this term. Such people can be found, though
whether the adjective "reputable" is appropriate for such people is
a matter of opinion. We define a "reputable biblical scholar" as
one who at least approaches the Bible with respect, preferably
believing it to be the inspired, inerrant and authoritative word of
God, from the very first verse.

Thirdly, why is it "obvious" that the Old Testament should not be
regarded as reliable? He has clearly not read detailed apologetics of
Scriptural inerrancy, such as that provided by Brian Edwards in his
masterly book, Nothing But The Truth. That is again down to his
presupposition-that evolution is true, therefore Genesis is wrong,
therefore evolution is true. Merely making a statement, or using the
word "obvious," does not make a statement true! Just from these
three points, we see that there is no logical reason given by Dawkins
for rejecting the use of the Bible as evidence.

Articles on the use of logic are easy to find on the website. An
important element in the use of logic is to recognise logical
fallacies. Dawkins has committed several of these.

Circular reasoning

This fallacy occurs when your presupposition is actually what you wish
to prove. Look at this example:

Creative intelligences, being evolved, necessarily arrive late in the
universe, and therefore cannot be responsible for designing it. (p. 31)
The logical fallacy is breathtaking. Evolution is first assumed, in
order to prove that evolution is true rather than intelligent design:
"creative intelligences, being evolved ... ." It is Dawkins'
presupposition that all creative intelligences have evolved. It is an
idea not supported by, for example, information science.

Ad hominem

This sort of fallacy involves attacking the opponent instead of the
argument. In the UK, this is referred to as "playing the man instead
of the ball"-a soccer reference, implying that the tackler has
deliberately aimed to kick his opponent, rather than attempting to kick
the ball.

There are several examples of this, such as a particularly nasty attack
on a schoolteacher, who happens to be a creationist. Notice, on page
95, how Dawkins describes certain American educational establishments:

He moved up the hierarchy of American universities, from rock bottom at
the "Moody Bible Institute", through Wheaton College (a little bit
higher on the scale, but still the alma mater of Billy Graham) to
Princeton in the world-beating class at the top. (p. 95)
Why are the three institutions arranged hierarchically? What is the
basis for Dawkins' assessment of standards at each place? He
doesn't say, but we assume that it has to do with belief in the
Bible. Why is it implied that, because they number Billy Graham among
their alumni, this is a negative for Wheaton College? [Editor's note:
It is ironic that Dawkins would have a problem with Wheaton College,
since it does not adhere to a plain interpretation of Genesis.]

Straw men

The well-known "straw man" logical fallacy occurs when the debater
misrepresents (often by oversimplifying) his or her opponent's
position for them, then argues against this invented position, rather
than against the actual arguments of the opponent. An example of this
is seen in the mocking tone used as he attempts to dismiss arguments
based on intelligent design.

I [insert own name] am personally unable to think of any way in which
[insert biological phenomenon] could have been built up step by step.
Therefore it is irreducibly complex. That means it is designed.
Although Dawkins uses this argument frequently, it is a complete
misrepresentation of the intelligent design position. A biological
mechanism is not labeled as irreducibly complex because it is
complicated and the labeler cannot think how it could have evolved. It
is so labeled because it can be shown that it is not possible for it to
have evolved.

Inconsistency

It is noteworthy that Dawkins' arguments are very inconsistent. For
example, Dawkins frequently returns to a criticism of the so-called
"God of the gaps" approach that uses the supernatural to explain
what science cannot currently explain. Compare that attitude with his
own, on page 132, where he comments on gaps in evolutionary knowledge:

A lot more work needs to be done, of course, and I'm sure it will be.
In Dawkins' view, it is inappropriate for a scientist to appeal to
the Creator to make a scientific explanation, even if that explanation
is logically sound. On the other hand, Dawkins writes as though it is
perfectly acceptable, when faced with dilemmas that evolution cannot
explain, to suppose that an evolutionary scientist will have a
naturalistic answer someday, even if the science is consistent with a
biblical approach. Such double standards allow Dawkins to self-justify
poor logic, while refusing to acknowledge the strength of those who
oppose him.

Conclusion

Christians have nothing to fear from The God Delusion. Far from being a
reasoned argument for atheism, it is a rant. It would be appropriate
for Christians to be aware of the principal arguments of the book, and
how they are countered. Maybe one day an atheistic book will emerge
that has more intellectual rigour, but even an intellectually rigorous
apology for atheism would not concern us for God is a God of wisdom and
reason. Time and again we find that a belief in the inerrancy of
Scripture is not just a doctrinal statement, it is an intellectually
satisfying position to take. But Dawkins' new book is weak, even by
atheist standards. We note that Dawkins is now planning to send atheist
material to government schools in the UK. That might be a good
opportunity for British school pupils to exercise their critical
thinking!

Reference

Madeleine Bunting, "No wonder atheists are angry," The Guardian,
January 7, 2006.

.



  Page 1 of 1

1

 


Related Articles